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United States4883 Posts
On October 03 2014 07:21 Sigil wrote:http://drop.sc/386695I just lost this zvz and I was a bit confused as to why I fell behind. I do a speedling timing and kill 10 drones, putting me a bit ahead in the worker count. From there I transition into a roach speed/+1 push and mutas pop as I'm there. My third base is up but not really functional by that point and I just fall behind in economy. After about 13:00 is me scrambling an inefficient push using queens and nydus which usually works on even economy, but as I checked the replay I realize i would have lost regardless of what I did from there. I know vs mutas your third needs to be done before mutas pop so you can hold it with a spore(s). I put down the third as I could afford it though. If I scouted the spire, not much would have changed in my play. So my question is this, did my ling timing simply put me too far behind in tech to execute the roach push? In this situation should I have cut a few roaches, put the third down earlier and played defense? I don't really understand why I fell behind here. Everything after the spire pops is kind of sloppy on my part, though I noted that no amount of macro would have put me in a good place. (He was equally as sloppy and still well ahead.) I'm trying to get back into this game and the flow of it is a lot different than it used to be in WoL.
First of all, you can't scout gas and then just not elect to make a baneling nest. If your opponent holds the first wave of pressure and just counterattacks with ling/bane (as he should have), you would have just lost the game. If you see a late gas like that, maybe you can delay the baneling nest until after lair (but even that is pushing it quite a bit). This doesn't really relate to why you lost, but it's a surefire way to lose against others. Your build does not feature a 3rd queen, which is not good. You need to figure out a time to get a 3rd queen out so you can spread creep to the 3rd base and more easily plant down spores if necessary.
6:20-6:40, idle larva. Lots of it.
8:00, way too many roaches. It's 4-5 to protect the 3rd base, then continue roach production. If you open ling/bane, you don't even need to make the roaches; you can just put down the third before the roach warren even finishes.
8:45 missed inject in the main.
9:50-10:20 missed injects at both main and natural.
11:05-11:40 missed injects at both main and natural.
12:25-12:40 missed injects at both main and natural.
The rest of it is just making way too many units while staying really undersaturated. During the entire roaching phase at 9:00, you have 14 workers on minerals at your natural; make at least two more and get full saturation before you make roaches. Remember to always reach a certain level of saturation before committing to units.
Traditionally, during the roach attack, you make a round of drones to fill up your 3rd base (~14) while getting lair tech and a few spores. During this time, you furiously microed your roaches focusing down a spine crawler. You always need to be doing the things that are most important at the right times.
Overall, your macro is really sloppy. Search "Zerg Inject and Creep Spread" in Arcade and play that map 5 minutes every day before you ladder. This will help you tighten up your inject cycle and get used to remembering when to inject. Remember, after the first five overlords, the cycle always goes like this:
1) Inject
2) Overlords (one per saturated base)
3) Spend Larva
4) Spread Creep
5) Do other stuff (micro, buildings, etc.)
If you get this inject cycle down perfectly and hit it every time, your macro will be immaculate and you'll just have more stuff than your opponent 90% of the time.
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Sweet advice. This game sounds cool.
A little tid bit I realized with regards to injects. If you're going to inject and the queen is ready, you're doing it wrong. You should always be checking right before injects pop and keep in your mind which hatchery is coming up next.
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I have just tried returning to this game, but I cannot find any up to date build orders, everything I find seems to be 8 months old or even more. Is there a place where I can find some decent builds to practice for each matchup, and perhaps even a build for team games (going hatch first seems bad)? Thanks a lot!
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On October 03 2014 10:14 SC2John wrote:+ Show Spoiler +First of all, you can't scout gas and then just not elect to make a baneling nest. If your opponent holds the first wave of pressure and just counterattacks with ling/bane (as he should have), you would have just lost the game. If you see a late gas like that, maybe you can delay the baneling nest until after lair (but even that is pushing it quite a bit). This doesn't really relate to why you lost, but it's a surefire way to lose against others. Your build does not feature a 3rd queen, which is not good. You need to figure out a time to get a 3rd queen out so you can spread creep to the 3rd base and more easily plant down spores if necessary.
6:20-6:40, idle larva. Lots of it.
8:00, way too many roaches. It's 4-5 to protect the 3rd base, then continue roach production. If you open ling/bane, you don't even need to make the roaches; you can just put down the third before the roach warren even finishes.
8:45 missed inject in the main.
9:50-10:20 missed injects at both main and natural.
11:05-11:40 missed injects at both main and natural.
12:25-12:40 missed injects at both main and natural.
The rest of it is just making way too many units while staying really undersaturated. During the entire roaching phase at 9:00, you have 14 workers on minerals at your natural; make at least two more and get full saturation before you make roaches. Remember to always reach a certain level of saturation before committing to units.
Traditionally, during the roach attack, you make a round of drones to fill up your 3rd base (~14) while getting lair tech and a few spores. During this time, you furiously microed your roaches focusing down a spine crawler. You always need to be doing the things that are most important at the right times.
Overall, your macro is really sloppy. Search "Zerg Inject and Creep Spread" in Arcade and play that map 5 minutes every day before you ladder. This will help you tighten up your inject cycle and get used to remembering when to inject. Remember, after the first five overlords, the cycle always goes like this:
1) Inject
2) Overlords (one per saturated base)
3) Spend Larva
4) Spread Creep
5) Do other stuff (micro, buildings, etc.)
If you get this inject cycle down perfectly and hit it every time, your macro will be immaculate and you'll just have more stuff than your opponent 90% of the time.
Thank you for that! I've been at a level where my injects were near perfect in the past, and I recently got back into the game so I know the power that they hold. I do practice that map you recommended and literally repeat that macro cycle verbatim in my head as I play (apart from one overlord per base, it's 'check supply for me' I'll try your way!) Ironically I played that map for 15 minutes before this game. It's just a focus thing I guess. I'm so sloppy in that regard it hurts a bit, but the rust is real. I've really lost the touch for injects and two weeks later it's still slow. Reinforcement is always good!
That said, I still managed to miss the idle larva at 6:20 in the replay, that's huge. Overall I'm noticing now that how I did the timing with the roaches was really all-in esque without committing and that doesn't work. The bit you mentioned about 8:00 completely answers my question - if I'm going to take the third then prioritize it over any sort of timing. A round of drones behind that attack probably would have been possible with better injects around that time. Past that the game is pure slop, playing with half an economy. I knew I lost the game right there, or should have and I think that shows through to my injects afterwards. If I recall my decision making, I decided I was too far behind in economy and tried to end the game with a push. In retrospect I do remember zvz not quite working that way, in that it can stabilize back into max vs max situations pretty easily even if he maxes faster because of the defender's advantage. So I suppose my response wasn't correct.
Overall - stop being bad and prioritize attention correctly as I know to do; put the third down before the roaches because 4 roaches won't make or break roaches as much as not having a solid followup; Find a place for a third queen (I'm not sure when but I'll play with getting one right after the third); I should have droned heavily behind this attack because there wasn't a lot that a counter could do to me and if they're going roaches I don't need to commit and should still drone because I'll have roaches left; and lastly don't forget the baneling nest.. it was more of an oversight instead of a decision.
Again thank you! I think I'll go lose some games on ladder prioritizing injects over anything else because I'm getting back to the point where strategy won't matter until it's based around the perfect injects.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 04 2014 08:07 Sigil wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2014 10:14 SC2John wrote:+ Show Spoiler +First of all, you can't scout gas and then just not elect to make a baneling nest. If your opponent holds the first wave of pressure and just counterattacks with ling/bane (as he should have), you would have just lost the game. If you see a late gas like that, maybe you can delay the baneling nest until after lair (but even that is pushing it quite a bit). This doesn't really relate to why you lost, but it's a surefire way to lose against others. Your build does not feature a 3rd queen, which is not good. You need to figure out a time to get a 3rd queen out so you can spread creep to the 3rd base and more easily plant down spores if necessary.
6:20-6:40, idle larva. Lots of it.
8:00, way too many roaches. It's 4-5 to protect the 3rd base, then continue roach production. If you open ling/bane, you don't even need to make the roaches; you can just put down the third before the roach warren even finishes.
8:45 missed inject in the main.
9:50-10:20 missed injects at both main and natural.
11:05-11:40 missed injects at both main and natural.
12:25-12:40 missed injects at both main and natural.
The rest of it is just making way too many units while staying really undersaturated. During the entire roaching phase at 9:00, you have 14 workers on minerals at your natural; make at least two more and get full saturation before you make roaches. Remember to always reach a certain level of saturation before committing to units.
Traditionally, during the roach attack, you make a round of drones to fill up your 3rd base (~14) while getting lair tech and a few spores. During this time, you furiously microed your roaches focusing down a spine crawler. You always need to be doing the things that are most important at the right times.
Overall, your macro is really sloppy. Search "Zerg Inject and Creep Spread" in Arcade and play that map 5 minutes every day before you ladder. This will help you tighten up your inject cycle and get used to remembering when to inject. Remember, after the first five overlords, the cycle always goes like this:
1) Inject
2) Overlords (one per saturated base)
3) Spend Larva
4) Spread Creep
5) Do other stuff (micro, buildings, etc.)
If you get this inject cycle down perfectly and hit it every time, your macro will be immaculate and you'll just have more stuff than your opponent 90% of the time. Thank you for that! I've been at a level where my injects were near perfect in the past, and I recently got back into the game so I know the power that they hold. I do practice that map you recommended and literally repeat that macro cycle verbatim in my head as I play (apart from one overlord per base, it's 'check supply for me' I'll try your way!) Ironically I played that map for 15 minutes before this game. It's just a focus thing I guess. I'm so sloppy in that regard it hurts a bit, but the rust is real. I've really lost the touch for injects and two weeks later it's still slow. Reinforcement is always good! That said, I still managed to miss the idle larva at 6:20 in the replay, that's huge. Overall I'm noticing now that how I did the timing with the roaches was really all-in esque without committing and that doesn't work. The bit you mentioned about 8:00 completely answers my question - if I'm going to take the third then prioritize it over any sort of timing. A round of drones behind that attack probably would have been possible with better injects around that time. Past that the game is pure slop, playing with half an economy. I knew I lost the game right there, or should have and I think that shows through to my injects afterwards. If I recall my decision making, I decided I was too far behind in economy and tried to end the game with a push. In retrospect I do remember zvz not quite working that way, in that it can stabilize back into max vs max situations pretty easily even if he maxes faster because of the defender's advantage. So I suppose my response wasn't correct. Overall - stop being bad and prioritize attention correctly as I know to do; put the third down before the roaches because 4 roaches won't make or break roaches as much as not having a solid followup; Find a place for a third queen (I'm not sure when but I'll play with getting one right after the third); I should have droned heavily behind this attack because there wasn't a lot that a counter could do to me and if they're going roaches I don't need to commit and should still drone because I'll have roaches left; and lastly don't forget the baneling nest.. it was more of an oversight instead of a decision. Again thank you! I think I'll go lose some games on ladder prioritizing injects over anything else because I'm getting back to the point where strategy won't matter until it's based around the perfect injects.
I don't think the cycle itself is very difficult, and I'm not even sure that's fully your problem. Your biggest problem seems to be prioritizing the wrong things at the wrong times. The biggest mistake I see is you trying to focus too much on your units. A good way to practice making sure your injects are on time is to, every time you are in a fight, think about injecting. Set up an attack (or defense), A-move, and literally just force yourself to look away and inject. For instance, in this game, you could have just as easily walked the roaches behind the mineral line and then just forgot about them and they would have done the same thing PLUS you'd have injects.
I kid you not, this is what soO does, and it's what makes him a macro god; even if he takes bad engagements, he's always got way more than his opponent.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 04 2014 07:26 Argoneus wrote:
I have just tried returning to this game, but I cannot find any up to date build orders, everything I find seems to be 8 months old or even more. Is there a place where I can find some decent builds to practice for each matchup, and perhaps even a build for team games (going hatch first seems bad)? Thanks a lot!
Search SC2 notes. And check out the previous page (of this thread) for a ZvT build order. Also, Lowko produces some good videos and build orders to copy (just search Youtube for Lowkotv).
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just a general question here about taking engagements in zvt with ling/bane
do you guys hotkey banes seperateley from lings or just controll them manualy?
iv usually been putting lings on1 ( and any re-enforcing banes on 1) banes on 2 and muta on 3
generally a moving lings, trying to bait a few wm shots then move commanding my banes onto juicy marines/ past marauders
and obviously mutas targeting medivacs
but iv noticed using this sort of approach i tend to lose quite a few banes to wm shots, since theylkl naturally clump when i move command them
should i just manually split of clumps of ling/bane during fights to avoid this or just split better in a wider arc pre-engage?
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On October 04 2014 20:23 Enigmasc wrote:
just a general question here about taking engagements in zvt with ling/bane
do you guys hotkey banes seperateley from lings or just controll them manualy?
iv usually been putting lings on1 ( and any re-enforcing banes on 1) banes on 2 and muta on 3
generally a moving lings, trying to bait a few wm shots then move commanding my banes onto juicy marines/ past marauders
and obviously mutas targeting medivacs
but iv noticed using this sort of approach i tend to lose quite a few banes to wm shots, since theylkl naturally clump when i move command them
should i just manually split of clumps of ling/bane during fights to avoid this or just split better in a wider arc pre-engage?
You can indeed do it this way. I am a lazy GM player and just double click (select all) the banes, and let the rest of the army do their job.
If you can help it, NEVER EVER just attack from on angle, Or WM and good marine splitting will be to cost effective. Always delay the engagement a bit, split your army into 2 or three parts. and attack from 2 or 3 angles.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 04 2014 20:23 Enigmasc wrote:
just a general question here about taking engagements in zvt with ling/bane
do you guys hotkey banes seperateley from lings or just controll them manualy?
iv usually been putting lings on1 ( and any re-enforcing banes on 1) banes on 2 and muta on 3
generally a moving lings, trying to bait a few wm shots then move commanding my banes onto juicy marines/ past marauders
and obviously mutas targeting medivacs
but iv noticed using this sort of approach i tend to lose quite a few banes to wm shots, since theylkl naturally clump when i move command them
should i just manually split of clumps of ling/bane during fights to avoid this or just split better in a wider arc pre-engage?
The way soO does it is by making a huge pre-spread arc with 3-4 groups of ling/bane then attack-moving ON THE MINIMAP. If you attack-move to the opposite side of the map via minimap, your units will bunch up a lot less (and, interestingly, patrol makes them bunch even less). Then you can just ctrl+click or double-click the banes and micro them so they don't blow up on marauders and thors.
But flanks are also really really nice. I honestly think you should always set up a flank if you have time.
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What is the best response to a 2 Rax? Altough it does not happen very often, everytime it gets played, the zerg dies or ends up behind. (Snute, soO, or me  for example).What is the correct answer to a 2 Rax when i scout a SCV building a bunker without ending up behind?
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United States4883 Posts
On October 05 2014 00:48 AFSpeeDy wrote:What is the best response to a 2 Rax? Altough it does not happen very often, everytime it gets played, the zerg dies or ends up behind. (Snute, soO, or me for example).What is the correct answer to a 2 Rax when i scout a SCV building a bunker without ending up behind?
In that situation, you need to pull all but ~4 drones from your main, make sure you don't get supply blocked, and save larva for lings. Put 3 drones to work on the bunker, one drone to attack each SCV, and use the rest to hunt down marines as they walk up to the bunker. Mineralwalk drones back to the natural as they get low on health - you can't afford to lose any. If the bunker goes down and at least 2 marines get to the bunker, you pretty much lose the game.
If your response time is later, you can try doing all this while building a spine crawler to break the bunker, but it's still really hard to break it once the bunker actually goes down.
If you drone scout common proxy locations and spot it while it's building, just pull 2 more drones and kill the SCVs/first marines for an easy win.
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I am trying to play some 2v2 games with my friend, but I can't really figure out what build I should be doing. I usually do 15h 17p 17g, then ling speed, 3 queens, and then either ling+roach or ling+bling and try pressuring enemy. Thing is, if the game drags on, my macro falls off, since I need more bases, but the team maps aren't really designed for having many expansions (map control against 2 people is hard for me, and the expansions are rather far, plus I need to leave some for my teammate, and I can't swarm his base with creep tumors).
Do I have any other options than not playing zerg? I don't really have a super stable build order after the 3 buildings, I just have a general idea, so the timing of my ling speed and roach/bling is inconsistent, depending on what's needed, and often I miscalculate, because it's hard to keep track of two player armies at once.
So my question is, are there any general builds that work well for 2vs2, and how should I deal with not being able to expand on a whim?
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On October 04 2014 22:42 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2014 20:23 Enigmasc wrote:
just a general question here about taking engagements in zvt with ling/bane
do you guys hotkey banes seperateley from lings or just controll them manualy?
iv usually been putting lings on1 ( and any re-enforcing banes on 1) banes on 2 and muta on 3
generally a moving lings, trying to bait a few wm shots then move commanding my banes onto juicy marines/ past marauders
and obviously mutas targeting medivacs
but iv noticed using this sort of approach i tend to lose quite a few banes to wm shots, since theylkl naturally clump when i move command them
should i just manually split of clumps of ling/bane during fights to avoid this or just split better in a wider arc pre-engage? The way soO does it is by making a huge pre-spread arc with 3-4 groups of ling/bane then attack-moving ON THE MINIMAP. If you attack-move to the opposite side of the map via minimap, your units will bunch up a lot less (and, interestingly, patrol makes them bunch even less). Then you can just ctrl+click or double-click the banes and micro them so they don't blow up on marauders and thors. But flanks are also really really nice. I honestly think you should always set up a flank if you have time.
Wait... Patrol command unclump ?
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United States4883 Posts
On October 05 2014 16:05 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2014 22:42 SC2John wrote:On October 04 2014 20:23 Enigmasc wrote:
just a general question here about taking engagements in zvt with ling/bane
do you guys hotkey banes seperateley from lings or just controll them manualy?
iv usually been putting lings on1 ( and any re-enforcing banes on 1) banes on 2 and muta on 3
generally a moving lings, trying to bait a few wm shots then move commanding my banes onto juicy marines/ past marauders
and obviously mutas targeting medivacs
but iv noticed using this sort of approach i tend to lose quite a few banes to wm shots, since theylkl naturally clump when i move command them
should i just manually split of clumps of ling/bane during fights to avoid this or just split better in a wider arc pre-engage? The way soO does it is by making a huge pre-spread arc with 3-4 groups of ling/bane then attack-moving ON THE MINIMAP. If you attack-move to the opposite side of the map via minimap, your units will bunch up a lot less (and, interestingly, patrol makes them bunch even less). Then you can just ctrl+click or double-click the banes and micro them so they don't blow up on marauders and thors. But flanks are also really really nice. I honestly think you should always set up a flank if you have time. Wait... Patrol command unclump ?
If you patrol a set of units, they will not clump up QUITE as much as a move command or an attack command because they all move along their own trajectory.
There's also this technique, which works in middlish numbers.
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Canada11355 Posts
On October 05 2014 23:52 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2014 16:05 FFW_Rude wrote:On October 04 2014 22:42 SC2John wrote:On October 04 2014 20:23 Enigmasc wrote:
just a general question here about taking engagements in zvt with ling/bane
do you guys hotkey banes seperateley from lings or just controll them manualy?
iv usually been putting lings on1 ( and any re-enforcing banes on 1) banes on 2 and muta on 3
generally a moving lings, trying to bait a few wm shots then move commanding my banes onto juicy marines/ past marauders
and obviously mutas targeting medivacs
but iv noticed using this sort of approach i tend to lose quite a few banes to wm shots, since theylkl naturally clump when i move command them
should i just manually split of clumps of ling/bane during fights to avoid this or just split better in a wider arc pre-engage? The way soO does it is by making a huge pre-spread arc with 3-4 groups of ling/bane then attack-moving ON THE MINIMAP. If you attack-move to the opposite side of the map via minimap, your units will bunch up a lot less (and, interestingly, patrol makes them bunch even less). Then you can just ctrl+click or double-click the banes and micro them so they don't blow up on marauders and thors. But flanks are also really really nice. I honestly think you should always set up a flank if you have time. Wait... Patrol command unclump ? If you patrol a set of units, they will not clump up QUITE as much as a move command or an attack command because they all move along their own trajectory. There's also this technique, which works in middlish numbers.
you just changed my life
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On October 05 2014 08:16 Argoneus wrote:
I am trying to play some 2v2 games with my friend, but I can't really figure out what build I should be doing. I usually do 15h 17p 17g, then ling speed, 3 queens, and then either ling+roach or ling+bling and try pressuring enemy. Thing is, if the game drags on, my macro falls off, since I need more bases, but the team maps aren't really designed for having many expansions (map control against 2 people is hard for me, and the expansions are rather far, plus I need to leave some for my teammate, and I can't swarm his base with creep tumors).
Do I have any other options than not playing zerg? I don't really have a super stable build order after the 3 buildings, I just have a general idea, so the timing of my ling speed and roach/bling is inconsistent, depending on what's needed, and often I miscalculate, because it's hard to keep track of two player armies at once.
So my question is, are there any general builds that work well for 2vs2, and how should I deal with not being able to expand on a whim?
I can give you some pointers:
many 2's players will do a 1 base timing with their friend (not play standard 1's builds) until you reach diamond/masters in 2's typically. So you need a build(s) that can be safe and do decent macro. So simply: if they are still on one base by 4:30 min, they are probably going to cheese you, so you must change your build based on that.
1. If you are facing any zerg + z,t,p combo, You are forced to open up with a zvz opener:
15p, 16h, 15ov queen, 18-22 gas (pick based on how fast your want your speed and bane vs extra mins)
23ov, queen, speed, 32ov bane nest. (at this point you can play standard zvz if your opponents a nat or third. If they don't, you need to make pure units.)
Or the greedier version: 15H, 16P, 17gas, 16 ov, 2 queen, scouting lings, 24 ov, gas, bane nest, 30 ov.
If you are facing any combo that does not include zerg. I strong suggest opening gasless 4queen build:
15h/15p/17ov or 15p/15h/14ov 2 queen, 25ov, 28-2queen
34 ov, 36doublegas, 40 RW (here you need to make roaches lings, and get speed if they are on one base still, If they take a nat, you can get double evo, take third, and get tech.)
when facing terran and protoss 2 base play, a 1 1 speed roach timing, or a 1 1 speedling baneling timing are effective to use while safely droning up your third base. Mind you, if they take a fast third base, you can fully saturate your third base before units.
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On October 05 2014 08:16 Argoneus wrote:
I am trying to play some 2v2 games with my friend, but I can't really figure out what build I should be doing. I usually do 15h 17p 17g, then ling speed, 3 queens, and then either ling+roach or ling+bling and try pressuring enemy. Thing is, if the game drags on, my macro falls off, since I need more bases, but the team maps aren't really designed for having many expansions (map control against 2 people is hard for me, and the expansions are rather far, plus I need to leave some for my teammate, and I can't swarm his base with creep tumors).
Do I have any other options than not playing zerg? I don't really have a super stable build order after the 3 buildings, I just have a general idea, so the timing of my ling speed and roach/bling is inconsistent, depending on what's needed, and often I miscalculate, because it's hard to keep track of two player armies at once.
So my question is, are there any general builds that work well for 2vs2, and how should I deal with not being able to expand on a whim?
top team ranking reporting in.
what race is your friend? that's a very important part.
the general sense is
ZP, you have to play somewhat defensive as protoss isn't the best in helping allies from defeat
ZT, you assist in the areas your terran ally struggles
ZZ, just general zerg play
if you could provide the race of your friend I would be able to give better advice.
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@ BuiBui & Meavis: thanks for the insight, we are ZT. so basically the idea is to go for very aggressive builds from the beginning, and then just support my T with w/e is needed?
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In an ideal macro game where my macro is spot on and I am not getting supply blocked by the opponent killing overlords, how much time supply blocked should I be seeing in my final stats? Even correctly executed builds have a little bit of supply block time, such as waiting for the overlord to finish at supply count of 10 at the beginning.
Is under a minute reasonable? 30 seconds-ish?
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EPT
