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On October 13 2014 23:56 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 23:18 Scrubby-onE wrote:On October 10 2014 02:21 SC2John wrote:
1) Drone scout is way too early. If you're going to drone scout, just scout at the same time as your other drone is going down to put down the hatch (~2:05). Your hatch is almost 10 seconds late for no reason. On top of your overlord covering your hatchery and your first overlord scouting NOTHING for fear of a marine, you're being way too overly safe. Just steer the first overlord toward the left side of the ramp and it cannot be picked off by an early marine. And either drone scout for proxies and send your overlord straight away OR scout your opponent's base with drone and cover your hatch with an overlord. You don't need to do play so overly safe.
No that's a fine drone scout timing. Usually you can drone scout for a proxy and either make the hatch first, or 15pool if you find a proxy. There's no reason to go pool first against 2rax other than ease. You can just as easily pull drones early to deal with it, especially if you scout it early with a drone. Pretty much the only time it gets tricky is when you have no idea that it's happening until the bunker is mostly or completely finished. To be honest, there's no reason at all to go pool first in this matchup unless you're doing it blindly. Otherwise, your hatch first is going to be fine, assuming you're doing the proper scouting.
So how do you hold it with hatch first? Almost always when I see it in pro games they can't deal with it even when they scout it early. I have never held it in recent time when going hatch first, but if I scout it before I drop my hatch and can go pool first it's almost a free win.
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i literally cant win TvZ anymore. no matter what i do i lose. early and early midgame its basically guessing if he goes hellbats or banshee or macro. if i get lucky and guess right its a slow death to WMs, marines, hellbats and medivacs which all 4 are SO insanely efficient especially with the occasional thor, tank or marauder mixed in. i dont know what i can do anymore, especially if they get like 10 WMs+ i cant win since there is no unit comp that trades with it effectively. even in games where i get up my 4th or 5th its so hard to close out games.
if someone has a good tip for me. i am open for everything.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 14 2014 02:07 Zheryn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 23:56 SC2John wrote:On October 13 2014 23:18 Scrubby-onE wrote:On October 10 2014 02:21 SC2John wrote:
1) Drone scout is way too early. If you're going to drone scout, just scout at the same time as your other drone is going down to put down the hatch (~2:05). Your hatch is almost 10 seconds late for no reason. On top of your overlord covering your hatchery and your first overlord scouting NOTHING for fear of a marine, you're being way too overly safe. Just steer the first overlord toward the left side of the ramp and it cannot be picked off by an early marine. And either drone scout for proxies and send your overlord straight away OR scout your opponent's base with drone and cover your hatch with an overlord. You don't need to do play so overly safe.
No that's a fine drone scout timing. Usually you can drone scout for a proxy and either make the hatch first, or 15pool if you find a proxy. There's no reason to go pool first against 2rax other than ease. You can just as easily pull drones early to deal with it, especially if you scout it early with a drone. Pretty much the only time it gets tricky is when you have no idea that it's happening until the bunker is mostly or completely finished. To be honest, there's no reason at all to go pool first in this matchup unless you're doing it blindly. Otherwise, your hatch first is going to be fine, assuming you're doing the proper scouting. So how do you hold it with hatch first? Almost always when I see it in pro games they can't deal with it even when they scout it early. I have never held it in recent time when going hatch first, but if I scout it before I drop my hatch and can go pool first it's almost a free win.
As long as the bunker isn't half built already by the time you scout it, you can easily delay with drones until your lings get out (might be harder if they go full MKP and pull ~6-8 additional workers). You just tag 3-4 drones on the bunker, one drone per SCV, and the rest chasing down the marines. If you scout the barracks while they're building, it's a freewin, a large portion of the time you can kill one of the SCVs or just indefinitely stop the progress of one of the barracks.
Like I said, it's convenient to drop a pool first, but I don't think your build should be so paranoid about bunker rushes that you intentionally set yourself behind in a normal game (when you can be just as safe without bothering to scout so early). Especially if you're trying to get better and improve. Improvement never serves itself well on a bed of safety.
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On October 14 2014 00:57 velvex wrote:
"Ease" sounds like a pretty good reason actually, doesn't it?
Lol exactly.
On October 13 2014 23:56 SC2John wrote:
There's no reason to go pool first against 2rax other than ease. You can just as easily pull drones early to deal with it, especially if you scout it early with a drone. Pretty much the only time it gets tricky is when you have no idea that it's happening until the bunker is mostly or completely finished.
To be honest, there's no reason at all to go pool first in this matchup unless you're doing it blindly. Otherwise, your hatch first is going to be fine, assuming you're doing the proper scouting.
The reason is to easily stop a bunker rush. A proxy 2 rax bunker rush is basically all in especially if the Terran pulls a ton of SCVs. It is possible to stop a bunker rush going hatch first but you will need to pull a ton of drones, lose more drones, and have them dancing around losing mining time trying to delay for much later lings, and even then, it's still hard. Whereas if you scout the 2rax, then go pool first, it's almost a guaranteed hold, which is ideal vs something that is basically all in.
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I wonder how to defend the 6hellions+reaper poke at your third around 7:30, i guess queen/ling is the way to go but does it really work on maps with kind of a distance to the third? Some replays would be appreciated
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On October 14 2014 07:32 NiDoXiD wrote:I wonder how to defend the 6hellions+reaper poke at your third around 7:30, i guess queen/ling is the way to go but does it really work on maps with kind of a distance to the third? Some replays would be appreciated
You have to be careful with your creep spread not to get it sniped by the hellions and reapers at the start. You should have have 2 extra queens by then and I recommend pulling the one from your natural while you remake it. If you opened with speed you should make a handful of lings and only use them to defend those queens.
The alternative is just to open roaches which stomps on that kind of pressure.
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Thread seems to be outdated with dealing with mech just stating to simply go swarmhost and tech to broodlorda. Hoe do I deal with the mass raven tank turret turtle. There are times like on nimbus where Im up double the bases but I just simple cannot kill them. They move out and just mass pdd and the army is untouchable. Any solutions?
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On October 16 2014 00:23 Rickyvalle21 wrote:
Thread seems to be outdated with dealing with mech just stating to simply go swarmhost and tech to broodlorda. Hoe do I deal with the mass raven tank turret turtle. There are times like on nimbus where Im up double the bases but I just simple cannot kill them. They move out and just mass pdd and the army is untouchable. Any solutions?
well that army comp (tank, raven, viking, BC + some ghosts for nukes) is just broken so "dont let them get there". what i found most effective is to go up to like 100 drones, roachspeed, banespeed so in case they do a weird push you are fine. then just go ahead and mine out the bases that are next to them (so first mine out THEIR half of the map (protect your bases with like 15 SHs + spores and nydus worms).
this works out best for me personally. while doing so just go for mass spore SH viper queen infestor and try to deny his gas income. if you manage to keep him on 4 base gas you will win the game...it will take a long time but you will win. if you let him get 5-6 bases you will lose.
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On October 16 2014 00:23 Rickyvalle21 wrote:
Thread seems to be outdated with dealing with mech just stating to simply go swarmhost and tech to broodlorda. Hoe do I deal with the mass raven tank turret turtle. There are times like on nimbus where Im up double the bases but I just simple cannot kill them. They move out and just mass pdd and the army is untouchable. Any solutions?
See this:
You can also find a lot of information by simply googling "dealing with mech".
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Here is the replay vs mech: http://ggtracker.com/matches/5517241
I usually dont cry balance but this is something I lose to almost everysingle time and it feels unbeatable to me.
Im only asking to see what mistakes i did and what i could have done better. My zerg is maybe high diamond low master but this is something that always gets me
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I have a question regarding all ins vs protoss. Normally, I play gasless against nexus or forge expands and take gases around 5:40-6:00. Then first 100 gas to speed, next 100 gas to lair. When lair is done, I make hydra den asap and this allows me to hold off pretty much any delayed all in. The problem is the ones which hit before hydras are out or in significant number. In this case, I feel like you need to go roaches with speed. Is this a correct assumption? I recently died to 2 all ins. One was a 3 gas blinker stalker build on 2 bases and the other was 4 phoenix into a 5 gate rush.
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On October 16 2014 04:23 TRaFFiC wrote:
I have a question regarding all ins vs protoss. Normally, I play gasless against nexus or forge expands and take gases around 5:40-6:00. Then first 100 gas to speed, next 100 gas to lair. When lair is done, I make hydra den asap and this allows me to hold off pretty much any delayed all in. The problem is the ones which hit before hydras are out or in significant number. In this case, I feel like you need to go roaches with speed. Is this a correct assumption? I recently died to 2 all ins. One was a 3 gas blinker stalker build on 2 bases and the other was 4 phoenix into a 5 gate rush.
I think the answer to your question is yes, you must make a roach warren with that kind of build to be really safe. I'm not 100% certain this applies to the allins you are talking about if you are very crisp with your gas/lair/hydralisk den/hydralisk timings.
But in general I believe you always have to drop a safety roach warren around the time the lair starts in case a Protoss has a forge, because that gives him the opportunity to do a 4-7gate zealot+1 attack and this will definitely hit too early and crush zergling defenses.
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On October 16 2014 04:23 TRaFFiC wrote:
I have a question regarding all ins vs protoss. Normally, I play gasless against nexus or forge expands and take gases around 5:40-6:00. Then first 100 gas to speed, next 100 gas to lair. When lair is done, I make hydra den asap and this allows me to hold off pretty much any delayed all in. The problem is the ones which hit before hydras are out or in significant number. In this case, I feel like you need to go roaches with speed. Is this a correct assumption? I recently died to 2 all ins. One was a 3 gas blinker stalker build on 2 bases and the other was 4 phoenix into a 5 gate rush.
Early gateway pressure you wanna have the roach warren ready. You should be fine versus FFE or stargate without it but it doesn't hurt to get the warren anyways. You can skip the roach speed if you dont plan on being aggressive with the roaches though.
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On October 16 2014 03:31 Rickyvalle21 wrote:Here is the replay vs mech: http://ggtracker.com/matches/5517241 I usually dont cry balance but this is something I lose to almost everysingle time and it feels unbeatable to me. Im only asking to see what mistakes i did and what i could have done better. My zerg is maybe high diamond low master but this is something that always gets me
he opens reactored hellion, you don't scout it. You don't take a lot of direct damage from the runby, but you build a spine a ton of useless zerglings and only have 26drones vs 25SCVs at 7mins, no 3rd started.
9mins, still only 39drones.
11min you lose half your stuff to three cloaked banshees...
I stopped watching there, there is really nothing to talk about when you are just so far behind where you should be at at this point.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 16 2014 18:41 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 03:31 Rickyvalle21 wrote:Here is the replay vs mech: http://ggtracker.com/matches/5517241 I usually dont cry balance but this is something I lose to almost everysingle time and it feels unbeatable to me. Im only asking to see what mistakes i did and what i could have done better. My zerg is maybe high diamond low master but this is something that always gets me he opens reactored hellion, you don't scout it. You don't take a lot of direct damage from the runby, but you build a spine a ton of useless zerglings and only have 26drones vs 25SCVs at 7mins, no 3rd started. 9mins, still only 39drones. 11min you lose half your stuff to three cloaked banshees... I stopped watching there, there is really nothing to talk about when you are just so far behind where you should be at at this point.
Yeah, if they open reactor hellion before expansion, just do a ZvZ build. You can just do 2-base mutalisks with lings/queens to take the 3rd or go ~4 roaches to take the 3rd and then do a big roach attack to prevent the Terran from taking a 3rd and go from there. Ezpz.
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On October 17 2014 02:10 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 18:41 Big J wrote:On October 16 2014 03:31 Rickyvalle21 wrote:Here is the replay vs mech: http://ggtracker.com/matches/5517241 I usually dont cry balance but this is something I lose to almost everysingle time and it feels unbeatable to me. Im only asking to see what mistakes i did and what i could have done better. My zerg is maybe high diamond low master but this is something that always gets me he opens reactored hellion, you don't scout it. You don't take a lot of direct damage from the runby, but you build a spine a ton of useless zerglings and only have 26drones vs 25SCVs at 7mins, no 3rd started. 9mins, still only 39drones. 11min you lose half your stuff to three cloaked banshees... I stopped watching there, there is really nothing to talk about when you are just so far behind where you should be at at this point. Yeah, if they open reactor hellion before expansion, just do a ZvZ build. You can just do 2-base mutalisks with lings/queens to take the 3rd or go ~4 roaches to take the 3rd and then do a big roach attack to prevent the Terran from taking a 3rd and go from there. Ezpz.
In this case I just do THE build that actually put reactor expands to their grave.
Queen++ (and yes, the ++ is both for "more queens", as well as for "+2range")
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On October 16 2014 05:09 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 04:23 TRaFFiC wrote:
I have a question regarding all ins vs protoss. Normally, I play gasless against nexus or forge expands and take gases around 5:40-6:00. Then first 100 gas to speed, next 100 gas to lair. When lair is done, I make hydra den asap and this allows me to hold off pretty much any delayed all in. The problem is the ones which hit before hydras are out or in significant number. In this case, I feel like you need to go roaches with speed. Is this a correct assumption? I recently died to 2 all ins. One was a 3 gas blinker stalker build on 2 bases and the other was 4 phoenix into a 5 gate rush. I think the answer to your question is yes, you must make a roach warren with that kind of build to be really safe. I'm not 100% certain this applies to the allins you are talking about if you are very crisp with your gas/lair/hydralisk den/hydralisk timings. But in general I believe you always have to drop a safety roach warren around the time the lair starts in case a Protoss has a forge, because that gives him the opportunity to do a 4-7gate zealot+1 attack and this will definitely hit too early and crush zergling defenses.
Thx for the replies guys. I just feel the hydra timing is that much more powerful if you don't make the rw. It allows you to make a big round of hydra right as the hydra den finishes. Here's a replay for reference, di vs di on kr server. http://drop.sc/387459
I don't think the forge alone is an indication you need a rw. If the forge is paired with a robo or sg, the move out timing will be later. At the moment I'm thinking, lack of gases in natural, no robo or sg, and/or lots of gateways.
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On October 17 2014 03:06 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 05:09 Big J wrote:On October 16 2014 04:23 TRaFFiC wrote:
I have a question regarding all ins vs protoss. Normally, I play gasless against nexus or forge expands and take gases around 5:40-6:00. Then first 100 gas to speed, next 100 gas to lair. When lair is done, I make hydra den asap and this allows me to hold off pretty much any delayed all in. The problem is the ones which hit before hydras are out or in significant number. In this case, I feel like you need to go roaches with speed. Is this a correct assumption? I recently died to 2 all ins. One was a 3 gas blinker stalker build on 2 bases and the other was 4 phoenix into a 5 gate rush. I think the answer to your question is yes, you must make a roach warren with that kind of build to be really safe. I'm not 100% certain this applies to the allins you are talking about if you are very crisp with your gas/lair/hydralisk den/hydralisk timings. But in general I believe you always have to drop a safety roach warren around the time the lair starts in case a Protoss has a forge, because that gives him the opportunity to do a 4-7gate zealot+1 attack and this will definitely hit too early and crush zergling defenses. Thx for the replies guys. I just feel the hydra timing is that much more powerful if you don't make the rw. It allows you to make a big round of hydra right as the hydra den finishes. Here's a replay for reference, di vs di on kr server. http://drop.sc/387459I don't think the forge alone is an indication you need a rw. If the forge is paired with a robo or sg, the move out timing will be later. At the moment I'm thinking, lack of gases in natural, no robo or sg, and/or lots of gateways.
this is of course true. If you can confirm a different build, there's no need for the early RW, forge or not.
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if you can cut the roach warren and don't need it obviously you're better off but in most cases if you're at all uncertain or worried it's pretty easy to just build it. unless you play at a very high level i feel you gain more from precautionary measures than you gain in theory by cutting corners and hitting timings... for most players i would think it's easier to just work on your macro and engagements than to worry about blasting your hydra timing 4 seconds faster by skipping safety nets. imo cutting corners is something you do when you have a ton of high level experience and strong game sense to draw from it, it's not just about gambling but cheating the odds by deducing things based on small details and reading the game better than your opponent
just an opinion tho
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dunno I personally like skipping roach warren because of how it forces you to scout 
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EPT
