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On October 17 2014 05:03 Alchemik wrote:dunno I personally like skipping roach warren because of how it forces you to scout 
well if you scout that you don't need a roach warren obviously you don't have to build it, and obviously scouting is good and you should do it whether you build a RW or not. i was talking more about when you're not 100% sure or your scout has been denied. i think most midlevel players will win a lot of games they would have autolost just by throwing down RW, safety spores, etc. whereas boosting your hydra timing by a small margin probably isn't going to autowin the same volume of games for a middling player
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just wondering, is the best way to improve ? focus on one aspect of gameplay or one matchup at a time?
in regards to ZVZ
and whats the best response to 10 pool bane? ( ie continous lings giving away its with gas)
i feel like i either die outright when i mess up my worker splits/ or a overcommit to defence and somehow end up behind?
is there a good way to practice ling bane micro or should i just open gassless and try to force the game past that stage
in ZVP
any tips for how to play for muta switches properly? just wondering because i tend to play a lot of roach hdyra viper/timings but if the protoss see it/has the brains to build templars i tend to just die, and then the muta switch is largeley ineffective since his army is so large
also any allins i could learn? trying to think of ways to mix up my play a little bit and tbh im starting to get weary of macro ZvP
also in ZvT
is 2 hatch muta even worth doing anymore? or is roach bane/pure roach the only pressure you can really do vs terran these days? i feel that whenever i open fast mutas i can barley justify there cost and unless hes opened hellion-banshee ( in which case 2 hatch is obviously amazin) i just seem to fall behind in a matchup where it feels impossible to ever catchup..
but on the same vien i juts feel i cant win macro TvZ anymore if he knows what hes doing unless i do some pressure and get ahead in the midgame
aslo what do you do when your overlord scout is denied? i feel terran has so many aggressive options that can just straight up kill you these days and yet its so hard to spot :/
sorry if its a bit of a long winded post, i just really need help across the board really, was hoping to try and get to masters this or next season but honestly my mmr is closer to plat these days. my main problems zvt really, used to be at 60% last season but its been as low as 30% after the patch and its really putting me on tillt ( especially since it was the only matchup i didnt really suck at and i barley even enjoy the other 2 matchups)
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ZvZ. 15pool is the safest and most economic opening vs any early cheese pools
ZvP. The mid game muta is most ideal when theyre going robo and taking a 3rd. If it's lategame if you manage to trade well against their army, and have a huge bank, it works well too.
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Newbie here, how do I deal with hellions?
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Canada11355 Posts
On October 17 2014 09:40 KtJ wrote:
Newbie here, how do I deal with hellions?
Short answer: Queens or Roaches
Longer answer: Form a wall at the entrance to your expansion with evolution chambers, a spine if you're extra scared, and have your creep queens stay near the way in so you can block them off. You can also use speed zerglings to surround hellions with no queens or roaches required, though this is much more risky as properly controlled hellions will decimate lings.
Is there a specific time hellions usually kill you? (before lair, before roaches, after taking a third base) or do they just always seem to end up on top of your drones?
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Hey, like you said it will be hard to drop a 3rd without speed or roaches, another reason why people go lings is because they get fast speed to fend of reapers (that will camp your 3rd later if terran scouts youre gasless). My solution to this problem is going pool first and take a 3rd after you got roaches out. You can run by a pair of lings to pull his reaper back while you defend with Queens so you dont have to make any more zergelings. I posted a build for this a few pages ago.
Going roaches and pool fist will delay you a little bit but it is worth it since it can turn the momentum in your favor which imo is more important than fast upgrades (i delay my upgrades even more untill after mutas are out ~10:00 minutes and im sitting at around 70% winrate in ZvT at High Diamond / Masters)
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No Fecalfeast i play starter edition and just wanted to know cuase i swihct from Terran.
Thanks for your help.
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What should i do with my first overlord?
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Yes it works well, I do it 90% of the time in grandmaster. (when they go for fast gas with reaper helion)
Things to note:
If you are not getting a third base, you will have less drones, so, you need to take your advantage elsewhere.
So you will have very fast upgrades, and faster tech.
You can do a 1 1 speed roach timing while droning your third
You can do a 1 1 speedling slow bane timing,
You can make a few slow roaches to make him think you are doing a 1 1 timing, and just drone third instead and do a 2 2 roach hydra timing or a 2 2 ling bane muta timing.
You have many options. Having a good build will make this work for you.
15hatch
15pool
17ov
queens
25ov
28 queens
32ov
44 2gas and RW at front for wall
52 ov and two evo, complete the wall, add two queens to fully wall off, AND 3/4 gas's
55 ov (make roaches if you are being attacked, if not. lair, and upgrades
take third 7-10 min mark, when you can afford it or when the terran runs away from roaches.
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On October 17 2014 23:19 KtJ wrote:
What should i do with my first overlord?
either send to usual proxy 2 gate and 2 rax locations, OR send it to the natural (cliff area) by the enemy base, so you can see their tech and base timing.
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On October 18 2014 00:34 EndOfLineTv wrote:either send to usual proxy 2 gate and 2 rax locations, OR send it to the natural (cliff area) by the enemy base, so you can see their tech and base timing.
Thanks that really confused me.
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On October 17 2014 03:55 brickrd wrote:
if you can cut the roach warren and don't need it obviously you're better off but in most cases if you're at all uncertain or worried it's pretty easy to just build it. unless you play at a very high level i feel you gain more from precautionary measures than you gain in theory by cutting corners and hitting timings... for most players i would think it's easier to just work on your macro and engagements than to worry about blasting your hydra timing 4 seconds faster by skipping safety nets. imo cutting corners is something you do when you have a ton of high level experience and strong game sense to draw from it, it's not just about gambling but cheating the odds by deducing things based on small details and reading the game better than your opponent
just an opinion tho
I think 4 seconds is an exaggeration. 150 minerals and 1 drone is nothing to scoff at. I agree with what you're saying in essence. Cutting corners does require experience and good scouting. What I disagree with is at what level it should be applied. There is no reason to sell yourself short at any level by saying "oh I won't do that. It's for pros/experienced players." Choose one of those things every time you ladder and apply it to your play. That's how you learn.
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Hey, just wanted to get some opinions on the following:
Playing a completely normal ZvT until midgame, but then going hydralisks instead of mutalisks. In essence going mass ling/bling and then mix in 10-20hydralisks and after 2-2 upgrading +1range. Possibly even going for 2-1-2 with a third evo chamber at once.
I'm playing around with it (and already did so before the first mine patch) and I just want to mention some points why I think this could actually be a very strong style:
+ hydralisks are 50gas cheaper but massively stronger in combat;
+ with the range upgrade and a bigger amount of hydralisks it is quite easy to targetfire mines before going off
+ the current metagame doesn't allow you to go mutalisks very early, due to their costinefficientness in combat. But with hydras you have anti-drop, anti-medivac on the board 2mins earlier; in this phase of the game you have to position yourself against drops properly anyways - so why not do this all game long?
+ cheaper and stronger, so it allows you to tech faster to Ultralisks or Broodlords
- the big minus I see is obviously counterattacking and killing expansions with it to eventually put the Terran allin doesn't work that well.
- drops are harder to defend, but I think it is not impossible
? terran could go for tank transitions (played against such), yet, then you get vipers and I think in that case you are even better off (from my experience)
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On October 18 2014 16:01 Big J wrote:
Hey, just wanted to get some opinions on the following:
Playing a completely normal ZvT until midgame, but then going hydralisks instead of mutalisks. In essence going mass ling/bling and then mix in 10-20hydralisks and after 2-2 upgrading +1range. Possibly even going for 2-1-2 with a third evo chamber at once.
I'm playing around with it (and already did so before the first mine patch) and I just want to mention some points why I think this could actually be a very strong style:
+ hydralisks are 50gas cheaper but massively stronger in combat;
+ with the range upgrade and a bigger amount of hydralisks it is quite easy to targetfire mines before going off
+ the current metagame doesn't allow you to go mutalisks very early, due to their costinefficientness in combat. But with hydras you have anti-drop, anti-medivac on the board 2mins earlier; in this phase of the game you have to position yourself against drops properly anyways - so why not do this all game long?
+ cheaper and stronger, so it allows you to tech faster to Ultralisks or Broodlords
- the big minus I see is obviously counterattacking and killing expansions with it to eventually put the Terran allin doesn't work that well.
- drops are harder to defend, but I think it is not impossible
? terran could go for tank transitions (played against such), yet, then you get vipers and I think in that case you are even better off (from my experience) I have messed around with it, what I felt out is that if terrans have good upgrades hydras have issues outdpsing the medivacs a bit, banes don't technically scale vs marines with attack upgrades (kill them with 2 hits regardless of upgrades) so maybe it's better to focus on range upgardes before melee ones?
I think the biggest weakness of this style is that if terran microes his medivacs back ( Which they almost never do for some reason even vs roach hydra :D, maybe they do it at super high gosu level but not at mine) you can't really snipe them and you can't chase them down after the fight and if the medivac count get's too high everything but banes will stop killing marines.
Other thing that is scary is that T can just hellbat drop your hydras and kill them all with 4-6 hellbats (Look up at some bio vs mech hellbat drops for reference)
Have you tried out opening with a 1/1 roach timing and then going into this style?
Consider trying to mix in corruptors at some point (not sure how it will work out but it might be worth while for reasons detailed in the thread about them)
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On October 18 2014 16:58 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2014 16:01 Big J wrote:
Hey, just wanted to get some opinions on the following:
Playing a completely normal ZvT until midgame, but then going hydralisks instead of mutalisks. In essence going mass ling/bling and then mix in 10-20hydralisks and after 2-2 upgrading +1range. Possibly even going for 2-1-2 with a third evo chamber at once.
I'm playing around with it (and already did so before the first mine patch) and I just want to mention some points why I think this could actually be a very strong style:
+ hydralisks are 50gas cheaper but massively stronger in combat;
+ with the range upgrade and a bigger amount of hydralisks it is quite easy to targetfire mines before going off
+ the current metagame doesn't allow you to go mutalisks very early, due to their costinefficientness in combat. But with hydras you have anti-drop, anti-medivac on the board 2mins earlier; in this phase of the game you have to position yourself against drops properly anyways - so why not do this all game long?
+ cheaper and stronger, so it allows you to tech faster to Ultralisks or Broodlords
- the big minus I see is obviously counterattacking and killing expansions with it to eventually put the Terran allin doesn't work that well.
- drops are harder to defend, but I think it is not impossible
? terran could go for tank transitions (played against such), yet, then you get vipers and I think in that case you are even better off (from my experience) I have messed around with it, what I felt out is that if terrans have good upgrades hydras have issues outdpsing the medivacs a bit, banes don't technically scale vs marines with attack upgrades (kill them with 2 hits regardless of upgrades) so maybe it's better to focus on range upgardes before melee ones? I think the biggest weakness of this style is that if terran microes his medivacs back ( Which they almost never do for some reason even vs roach hydra :D, maybe they do it at super high gosu level but not at mine) you can't really snipe them and you can't chase them down after the fight and if the medivac count get's too high everything but banes will stop killing marines. Other thing that is scary is that T can just hellbat drop your hydras and kill them all with 4-6 hellbats (Look up at some bio vs mech hellbat drops for reference) Have you tried out opening with a 1/1 roach timing and then going into this style? Consider trying to mix in corruptors at some point (not sure how it will work out but it might be worth while for reasons detailed in the thread about them)
Not with a 1-1 roach timing, but with defensive roach opening. And my conclusion is that you are way too much all over the place in the midgame then.
Like, what you have after you open 1-1 ranged with roaches, is:
roach warren
+1range
+1carapace
lair
roach speed
what you want is:
baneling nest
baneling speed
zergling speed
hydralisk den
hydralisk upgrades
2more melee upgrades melee
1more range upgrade
1 more carapace upgrade
--> that's a ton of money for set up that you still have to go for in the midgame.
If you go for a regular speedling opening with a baneling nest as safety and 1-1 melee, what you have is a bit closer to what you still need and you still have the money that you didn't invest into roaches:
baneling speed
hydralisk den
hydralisk upgrades
2more melee upgrades melee
1more range upgrade
1 more carapace upgrade
+300/100 for not going roach warren+speed;
Basically you sacrifice a lot of things that you would want to go for, for 1-1 upgrades. What is also important to consider with hydralisks and upgrades is that you don't necessarily need them on hydras too much.
They have 12base damage and only get +1per upgrade and -1per armor. So if you have +1hydras vs +3armor marines, it's still 10damage per shot, so 83.3% of their damage.
With zerglings, +1attack vs +3armor marines it is 3 of 5 base damage, so they only do 60% of their base damage. With +2 vs +3 it is 80% of their base damage. So the conclusion imo is, that +1range is completely enough to justify hydralisks for as long as you don't rely on them as main combat units (that's your ling/bling) - they still work to kill medivacs and add something ranged. While the zerglings really need the upgrades to be as close to the marines' upgrades as possible or they quickly turn useless.
The thing with medivacs is, that the Terran is forced to move his bio back against banelings, but the medivacs will autostop to heal when not given direct movecommand orders. Given the fast pace of ling/bling vs bio battles, I think it is quite reasonable to assume that there will be stray medivacs in range of hydralisks. You usually don't kill a lot, but if you targetfire with the hydralisks during the combat, you will often chip off the one or other.
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On October 18 2014 16:01 Big J wrote:
Hey, just wanted to get some opinions on the following:
Playing a completely normal ZvT until midgame, but then going hydralisks instead of mutalisks. In essence going mass ling/bling and then mix in 10-20hydralisks and after 2-2 upgrading +1range. Possibly even going for 2-1-2 with a third evo chamber at once.
I'm playing around with it (and already did so before the first mine patch) and I just want to mention some points why I think this could actually be a very strong style:
+ hydralisks are 50gas cheaper but massively stronger in combat;
+ with the range upgrade and a bigger amount of hydralisks it is quite easy to targetfire mines before going off
+ the current metagame doesn't allow you to go mutalisks very early, due to their costinefficientness in combat. But with hydras you have anti-drop, anti-medivac on the board 2mins earlier; in this phase of the game you have to position yourself against drops properly anyways - so why not do this all game long?
+ cheaper and stronger, so it allows you to tech faster to Ultralisks or Broodlords
- the big minus I see is obviously counterattacking and killing expansions with it to eventually put the Terran allin doesn't work that well.
- drops are harder to defend, but I think it is not impossible
? terran could go for tank transitions (played against such), yet, then you get vipers and I think in that case you are even better off (from my experience)
I have tried it in gm. It can work well. And it scales better with your resources then mutas. Its good vs bio mine. Its not good vs tank hellbat bio. And of course the weakeness is constant drops.
If you can squeeze in a few infestors for hydra ling bane infestor. Then you will trade very well vs any parade push terran. You can force a lot of tanks, and then you can switch into ultras. Ultra bane hydra infestor rocks.
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Mkay, so I am high plat zerg and had a question about infestor - link bling into ultras style. Why is it not used much? I mean with good map awareness and well spread overlords you can intercept drops with neural parasite and push them under spores to kill fungle is good and mines can be activated with overlords on speed when attacking.
Players are so not used to it. Is there some weakness of infestors I don't know? I think of pursuing the play with them instead of mutas, as mutas seem so week when terran gets mines and thors. And today I got guite a few easy wins vs terrans as they seem totaly not used to handling it.
I was wondering why no pros play with them, is it cuz its so bad?
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On October 19 2014 00:47 M4nkind wrote:
Mkay, so I am high plat zerg and had a question about infestor - link bling into ultras style. Why is it not used much? I mean with good map awareness and well spread overlords you can intercept drops with neural parasite and push them under spores to kill fungle is good and mines can be activated with overlords on speed when attacking.
Players are so not used to it. Is there some weakness of infestors I don't know? I think of pursuing the play with them instead of mutas, as mutas seem so week when terran gets mines and thors. And today I got guite a few easy wins vs terrans as they seem totaly not used to handling it.
I was wondering why no pros play with them, is it cuz its so bad?
its not so much infestors are outright bad or anything,they just deal with drops worse than mutas do and unlike mutas they dont really force turrets ( since you cant really harass with them ), and there very gass heavy and so cut down bane count
also worth noting the dps is prettybad and in some cases barley out damaged healing on medivacs :L
there still good units as a support caster (ultra-infestors is amazin) though and in low-econ situations
btw guys if your enemy opens 10pool with gas can you still open gasless? i feel i just lose y natural hatch and cant even counter because no ling speed?
really starting to hate zvz tbh
literally not played a zvz that wasnt a 10pool for like 2 weeks and at this stage im starting to lose the will to hit that ladder button
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On October 19 2014 05:54 Enigmasc wrote:
btw guys if your enemy opens 10pool with gas can you still open gasless? i feel i just lose y natural hatch and cant even counter because no ling speed?
really starting to hate zvz tbh
literally not played a zvz that wasnt a 10pool for like 2 weeks and at this stage im starting to lose the will to hit that ladder button
Yes, of course, you can. I assume you're talking about 10 pool speedling. Against that, your goal is to gain control of the ramp to your main, block it and win with your superior economy. So once you checked your opponent is actually staying on one base, you continue ling production after the initial 8-10 lings and get constant queen production and one or two spines. Try to avoid drone losses as much as possible. At some point, you should be able to drive away the enemy lings with your queens and lings, even if you don't have speed. Then establish the queen block on the ramp and relocate your spine(s) to your natural. If your opponent still doesn't expand, gradually add more spines while slowly droning up your natural until he gives up.
I think the gasless defence of one-base all-ins is actually significantly easier than the one with gas. You don't have to juggle two different resources and you don't have to differentiate much between the all-ins; it's basically always getting control of the main, followed by securing the natural.
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EPT
