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On October 22 2014 02:50 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 02:43 Big J wrote:On October 22 2014 02:23 KaneMX wrote:
Ok guys, I'm top diamond with 75% ZvT but now its starting to be no fun. Really no fun.
Good terrans start beating me with the easiest build on earth. Open Standard, harass with 2 repears. Followup harrass with 4 hellions. At 6:30-7:00 I'm overlordscouting his main, looking for armory or anything. Of course, usually overlord gets sniped before I spot anything important besides factory with reactor.
30 seconds later, 8-10 hellbats are standing in my third, often with 1-2 non cloack banshees.
I think this push is a) super easy to execute b) super easy to hide armory early on c) extremly strong and d) only defendable with a huge bunch of safety roaches.
But the problem is - I have to build the roaches blindly if I ever hope to defend the push. Spotting the armory in time will happen in 1 of 5 games, at best. This basically means to me now, I have to build those saftey roaches every ZvT, which will make me safe against this yolo-push. But if terran does not do this push, I'm super far behind and can only follow it up with roach bane allin.
What happened to the matchup? This is not only boring, but also super annoying. Any advice for me? What are you scouting for with your Overlord? I think that's the clue. If you try to find the armory you are fucked, because the armory can be anywhere on the map. What you should be looking for is: 1gas? Then it's not hellbat! (armory+starport+banshee/medivac take more) fast 3rd CC? Then it's not hellbat! fast stim research? Then it's not hellbat! The setup for hellbats is usually: - reactored factory - plain barracks or with reactor - plain starport or with reactor Basically, the moment you scout a barracks or Starport, either without techlab your alarms should go off. Also a marine number>2 after a reaper opening and before a techlab usually signals aggression. True, it could be another build as well, but a defensive anti-hellbat reaction if you scout such a setup should be good against something else too. While it isn't all that uneconomical, because even without an armory the Terran invested a lot in this setup. Also banelings and a good amount of queens are really good against hellbat pushes. My highest priority after starting a 3rd is currently to get to 5-6queens and I prefer the baneling nest over the roach warren. True, roaches are more costefficient, but I usually already have zerglings on the battlefield, in which case morphing the already existing lings into banelings feels more efficient than adding roaches on top of the speedlings. There's actually a game floating out there that Innovation did with triple CC/fast stim and he still hits a hellbat timing (with marines and medivacs) at fucking 9:00. It's kind of ridiculous. In any case, the situation he's describing looks like a normal hellion/banshee build, but how can you tell if it's a dedicated hellion/banshee pressure or something with hellbats? I would say the key here is probably whether or not your opponent stops at 6 hellions and starts stim, but even then, a hellbat timing is not out of the question, it's just a little later.
Haha. Lately I ran into the following: OC in the main, stim research with marauders building + hellbat setup. To me it looked like a hellbat setup but with a third CC and stim, so I thought it can't be one. But it was...
The clue, I didn't scout that the natural was empty and the OC in the main was base#2 :D
But anycase, at 9mins I believe you should have a baneling nest and the scouting to see something like this coming. There are actually a lot of timings that a Terran can hit with 3CC between 9-10mins if he skips upgrades. But I believe such timings are usually easier to hold than a very early hellbat push.
I don't think you can really 100% confirm a hellbat push without scouting the armory, but you can confirm some sort of timing and at the end of the day all of them can be defended with ling/bling/queen, minus 2-3factory hellions. But that's something you should really be able to differentiate.
I wouldn't read too much in exact hellion counts or whether a Terran is aggressive or defensive with them. It can vary way too much based upon personal preference and skill and a good Terran should preserve his hellions one way or another.
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If I early pool against Protoss, like a 9 pool, what should I be attempting to do with my lings against the various openers?
If he goes nexus first it should be a build order win, right? Is the correct response to go after workers because otherwise he can wall in while I kill his expo and still be ahead workers?
If he goes FFE should I try to snipe the forge, or pylons?
If he goes gateway expand, is my best target the pylon powering the gateway?
Should I always get a queen as I start my attack?
If there's some guide explaining this please steer me to it, thanks in advance.
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On October 22 2014 10:22 LordYama wrote:
If I early pool against Protoss, like a 9 pool, what should I be attempting to do with my lings against the various openers?
If he goes nexus first it should be a build order win, right? Is the correct response to go after workers because otherwise he can wall in while I kill his expo and still be ahead workers?
If he goes FFE should I try to snipe the forge, or pylons?
If he goes gateway expand, is my best target the pylon powering the gateway?
Should I always get a queen as I start my attack?
If there's some guide explaining this please steer me to it, thanks in advance.
as a protoss player ill try to give u what zergs should do in this situation.
against nexus first you can do both, either go for workers and deny mining time or go for the natural. some protosses will pull probes to defend but thats ok, you double expand behind this and you will be ahead. DON'T try to go for both nexus and probes at the same time. you must commit all lings to either probes or the nexus.
Against forge first, don't commit to the pressure at all, just make 4 lings which forces him to make the wall before making the nexus while you double expand. Since he's going FFE you should have plenty of time to drone up.
Against gateway expand, it depends if he created gateway/core pylon choke on his ramp. In this case its a build order loss for you if he gets a zealot out on time. If you manage to slip past before the zealot pops then u can try to do fancy micro and pick off workers while avoiding the zealot.
However if he went for 1 gas gateway expand, a reactive 4gate usually kills you immediately.
No don't get a queen, thats for 14/14 speedlings, 10 pool isn't an allin, you need the minerals to expand then get queen
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On October 22 2014 10:32 Xinzoe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 10:22 LordYama wrote:
If I early pool against Protoss, like a 9 pool, what should I be attempting to do with my lings against the various openers?
If he goes nexus first it should be a build order win, right? Is the correct response to go after workers because otherwise he can wall in while I kill his expo and still be ahead workers?
If he goes FFE should I try to snipe the forge, or pylons?
If he goes gateway expand, is my best target the pylon powering the gateway?
Should I always get a queen as I start my attack?
If there's some guide explaining this please steer me to it, thanks in advance. + Show Spoiler +as a protoss player ill try to give u what zergs should do in this situation.
against nexus first you can do both, either go for workers and deny mining time or go for the natural. some protosses will pull probes to defend but thats ok, you double expand behind this and you will be ahead. DON'T try to go for both nexus and probes at the same time. you must commit all lings to either probes or the nexus.
Against forge first, don't commit to the pressure at all, just make 4 lings which forces him to make the wall before making the nexus while you double expand. Since he's going FFE you should have plenty of time to drone up.
Against gateway expand, it depends if he created gateway/core pylon choke on his ramp. In this case its a build order loss for you if he gets a zealot out on time. If you manage to slip past before the zealot pops then u can try to do fancy micro and pick off workers while avoiding the zealot.
However if he went for 1 gas gateway expand, a reactive 4gate usually kills you immediately.
No don't get a queen, thats for 14/14 speedlings, 10 pool isn't an allin, you need the minerals to expand then get queen
Thanks!
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United States4883 Posts
On October 22 2014 10:32 Xinzoe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 10:22 LordYama wrote:
If I early pool against Protoss, like a 9 pool, what should I be attempting to do with my lings against the various openers?
If he goes nexus first it should be a build order win, right? Is the correct response to go after workers because otherwise he can wall in while I kill his expo and still be ahead workers?
If he goes FFE should I try to snipe the forge, or pylons?
If he goes gateway expand, is my best target the pylon powering the gateway?
Should I always get a queen as I start my attack?
If there's some guide explaining this please steer me to it, thanks in advance. as a protoss player ill try to give u what zergs should do in this situation. against nexus first you can do both, either go for workers and deny mining time or go for the natural. some protosses will pull probes to defend but thats ok, you double expand behind this and you will be ahead. DON'T try to go for both nexus and probes at the same time. you must commit all lings to either probes or the nexus. Against forge first, don't commit to the pressure at all, just make 4 lings which forces him to make the wall before making the nexus while you double expand. Since he's going FFE you should have plenty of time to drone up. Against gateway expand, it depends if he created gateway/core pylon choke on his ramp. In this case its a build order loss for you if he gets a zealot out on time. If you manage to slip past before the zealot pops then u can try to do fancy micro and pick off workers while avoiding the zealot. However if he went for 1 gas gateway expand, a reactive 4gate usually kills you immediately. No don't get a queen, thats for 14/14 speedlings, 10 pool isn't an allin, you need the minerals to expand then get queen
Actually, splitting up the lings is super good. Against nexus first, I kill any pylon at the natural then run into the mineral line. When the first zealot is out, I bring 6 lings down to the natural and leave 2 lings in the main. The multitasking for the Zerg player is much easier than it is for the Protoss player. Against a player that goes nexus into forge, this is practically a free win; he'll just cannon his main and you can kill the nexus or a significant number of probes.
In general, queen first helps prevent cannon rushes because you can zone out the probe while the hatchery is building. Usually 14/14 gets the expansion first, but I prefer getting a queen first with 9 pool because you can't really afford to make extra lings with your larva to prevent a cannon rush or a pylon block.
Against gate expand, you're pretty much fucked with 9 pool. I would recommend getting gas and doing something cheesy, because it's practically impossible to catch up in economy unless you somehow miraculously kill several probes and prevent mining for a long time.
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I shouldve made it more clear that splitting up lings doesnt work against nexus first -> gate when the pylon is behind mineral line. I rarely see nexus into forge anymore at least in NA GM.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 22 2014 19:30 Xinzoe wrote:
I shouldve made it more clear that splitting up lings doesnt work against nexus first -> gate when the pylon is behind mineral line. I rarely see nexus into forge any more at least in NA GM.
It should still work fine once the first zealot is out. Reference effort vs Classic. I've tested this scenario pretty extensively with friends, and far and away, it's better to split up the lings once the zealot gets out. Before then, yess, the lings should be focused on probes (attacking the nexus is a mistake because you won't kill it if the Protoss pulls probes with the first zealot.).
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GM Z here. Having huge troubles with the 3base Terran aggro/parade style. Unless I smash the first engagement, I feel like I'm boned.
Any ideas on how to hold it better or how to stunt it other than the "run lings around" or "don't let him get to that point"?
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hm, it's hard to judge GM level without replay but what I assume is the problem is that you don't have enough units in time, so either took to long to build up economy or overdroned and started unit production to late, more banelings over mutas could help as well.
faking engaging with banelings can help as well as the terran is forced to start splitting/kiting and delay his attack a bit.
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On October 23 2014 16:20 Mistakes wrote:
GM Z here. Having huge troubles with the 3base Terran aggro/parade style. Unless I smash the first engagement, I feel like I'm boned.
Any ideas on how to hold it better or how to stunt it other than the "run lings around" or "don't let him get to that point"?
Are you losing fights on creep? If you're not behind you should be able to hold anything assuming your creep spread is good. This is a very vague question though, if you're just looking for different things to try just do a roach push into roach hydra. I'm mid gm and that's all I do zvt.
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is it possible to defend 3 plon block with hatch first? I mean where they pylon block at the top of the ramp. Even if i pull all drones IT doesnt seem like i can break through and when i can they already have canon up and im already behind. So is 15 hatch just bad?
heres the replay of me losing vs it:http://ggtracker.com/matches/5536786
please crtique my play. I feel as I didnt make alot of mistakes.
I figured I can hatch first or even 3 hatch before pool since protoss will almost always open gateway vs random.
Also a Blade guide of how you can just macro out of it with roaches but his video wasnt a good representation because his opponent all ined instead of mantaining lead.
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On October 23 2014 23:17 Rickyvalle21 wrote:
is it possible to defend 3 plon block with hatch first? I mean where they pylon block at the top of the ramp. Even if i pull all drones IT doesnt seem like i can break through and when i can they already have canon up and im already behind. So is 15 hatch just bad?
heres the replay of me losing vs it:http://ggtracker.com/matches/5536786
please crtique my play. I feel as I didnt make alot of mistakes.
I figured I can hatch first or even 3 hatch before pool since protoss will almost always open gateway vs random.
Also a Blade guide of how you can just macro out of it with roaches but his video wasnt a good representation because his opponent all ined instead of mantaining lead.
You won't be able to get lings out in time even if you go 15 pool. You have to scout the pylon block immediately and pull 5 drones to attack the middle pylon (you can try it out in the arcade game "HotS Unit Tester Online" I think it's called). I think you want to break the pylon, get a couple of drones out to expand while you build a spine in your main to bring down the pylons. I don't meet this often enough to have tested this out perfectly.
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On October 23 2014 23:41 Zheryn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2014 23:17 Rickyvalle21 wrote:
is it possible to defend 3 plon block with hatch first? I mean where they pylon block at the top of the ramp. Even if i pull all drones IT doesnt seem like i can break through and when i can they already have canon up and im already behind. So is 15 hatch just bad?
heres the replay of me losing vs it:http://ggtracker.com/matches/5536786
please crtique my play. I feel as I didnt make alot of mistakes.
I figured I can hatch first or even 3 hatch before pool since protoss will almost always open gateway vs random.
Also a Blade guide of how you can just macro out of it with roaches but his video wasnt a good representation because his opponent all ined instead of mantaining lead. You won't be able to get lings out in time even if you go 15 pool. You have to scout the pylon block immediately and pull 5 drones to attack the middle pylon (you can try it out in the arcade game "HotS Unit Tester Online" I think it's called). I think you want to break the pylon, get a couple of drones out to expand while you build a spine in your main to bring down the pylons. I don't meet this often enough to have tested this out perfectly.
The lings help you a lot with clearing the cannons on the low ground once you've broken out. 15 pool should defend this rush most of the time if you pull drones quickly enough. It is also quite map-dependent, though. On some maps (Overgrowth mostly, I think), a cannon can be walled in quite easily, making the defence much harder and riskier.
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When should i build my second hatch?
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On October 24 2014 07:48 KtJ wrote:
When should i build my second hatch?
At 15 supply, either with hatch first or 15 pool and then 15 hatch. Goes for all MUs.
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On October 23 2014 16:55 Meavis wrote:
hm, it's hard to judge GM level without replay but what I assume is the problem is that you don't have enough units in time, so either took to long to build up economy or overdroned and started unit production to late, more banelings over mutas could help as well.
faking engaging with banelings can help as well as the terran is forced to start splitting/kiting and delay his attack a bit.
My creep is always stunted by the reaper/hellion/sometimes w/ banshee play. Or with the marine/hellion/medivac play that's recently popular. So I don't have much creep to work with. I think my econ gets behind from the early stuff, and I can't get as many mutas out as I would like, and am forced into making pure ling/bane to try and survive, which only lasts so long.
I feel that if I can get ultras out I can make it, but I'll only be 3 base, MAYBE 4 with a lower-than-normal gas count by the time my ultra cavern is ready due to so many banelings and delayed mutas.
On October 23 2014 23:16 -ReD- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2014 16:20 Mistakes wrote:
GM Z here. Having huge troubles with the 3base Terran aggro/parade style. Unless I smash the first engagement, I feel like I'm boned.
Any ideas on how to hold it better or how to stunt it other than the "run lings around" or "don't let him get to that point"? Are you losing fights on creep? If you're not behind you should be able to hold anything assuming your creep spread is good. This is a very vague question though, if you're just looking for different things to try just do a roach push into roach hydra. I'm mid gm and that's all I do zvt.
I might just try going roach/hydra. My trouble with that was that I could either A) never get enough shit to do game-ending damage mid game or B) get rekt late game by superior Terran forces. TT
I often like to do a 8-12 roach push to try to do some damage, but if they open blind tank or banshee that gets shut down HARD and I'm stuck with 10 retreating roaches and a delayed 3rd.
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Is there any reason to proxy hatch vs Terran on Foxtrot? It looks when pros do it but I'm not sure if it would be viable in plat/diamond lol
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On October 25 2014 03:57 Ej_ wrote:
Is there any reason to proxy hatch vs Terran on Foxtrot? It looks when pros do it but I'm not sure if it would be viable in plat/diamond lol
Its not something I would recommend. Im sure it would work in diamond with people just not knowing how to respond but it works both ways. You need to know how to respond to every situation too. As far as using it on foxtrot its probably just because they don't wanna play a macro game on it.
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United States741 Posts
On October 24 2014 09:12 Mistakes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2014 16:55 Meavis wrote:
hm, it's hard to judge GM level without replay but what I assume is the problem is that you don't have enough units in time, so either took to long to build up economy or overdroned and started unit production to late, more banelings over mutas could help as well.
faking engaging with banelings can help as well as the terran is forced to start splitting/kiting and delay his attack a bit. My creep is always stunted by the reaper/hellion/sometimes w/ banshee play. Or with the marine/hellion/medivac play that's recently popular. So I don't have much creep to work with. I think my econ gets behind from the early stuff, and I can't get as many mutas out as I would like, and am forced into making pure ling/bane to try and survive, which only lasts so long. I feel that if I can get ultras out I can make it, but I'll only be 3 base, MAYBE 4 with a lower-than-normal gas count by the time my ultra cavern is ready due to so many banelings and delayed mutas. Show nested quote +On October 23 2014 23:16 -ReD- wrote:On October 23 2014 16:20 Mistakes wrote:
GM Z here. Having huge troubles with the 3base Terran aggro/parade style. Unless I smash the first engagement, I feel like I'm boned.
Any ideas on how to hold it better or how to stunt it other than the "run lings around" or "don't let him get to that point"? Are you losing fights on creep? If you're not behind you should be able to hold anything assuming your creep spread is good. This is a very vague question though, if you're just looking for different things to try just do a roach push into roach hydra. I'm mid gm and that's all I do zvt. I might just try going roach/hydra. My trouble with that was that I could either A) never get enough shit to do game-ending damage mid game or B) get rekt late game by superior Terran forces. TT I often like to do a 8-12 roach push to try to do some damage, but if they open blind tank or banshee that gets shut down HARD and I'm stuck with 10 retreating roaches and a delayed 3rd.
I am also gm. aggro timing plays like this from the terran are meant to do damage: Either to snipe the third, OR to force the zerg to make units instead of drones. The terran needs to sacrifice something to do this, Either a very fast third, scvs, or very fast upgrades (it is usually this). What you need to do is find your advantage elsewhere, I personally choose upgrades. With this advantage I can do a 1 1 roach, or ling bane timing, OR a 2 2 variant.
What build are you using?
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Hey could I get some feedback on this replay:
http://www.sc2share.com/BLC
I'm having some trouble with the constant hell bat play.
I'm gold btw!
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EPT
