On October 19 2014 00:47 M4nkind wrote: Mkay, so I am high plat zerg and had a question about infestor - link bling into ultras style. Why is it not used much? I mean with good map awareness and well spread overlords you can intercept drops with neural parasite and push them under spores to kill fungle is good and mines can be activated with overlords on speed when attacking.
Players are so not used to it. Is there some weakness of infestors I don't know? I think of pursuing the play with them instead of mutas, as mutas seem so week when terran gets mines and thors. And today I got guite a few easy wins vs terrans as they seem totaly not used to handling it.
I was wondering why no pros play with them, is it cuz its so bad?
its not so much infestors are outright bad or anything,they just deal with drops worse than mutas do and unlike mutas they dont really force turrets ( since you cant really harass with them ), and there very gass heavy and so cut down bane count also worth noting the dps is prettybad and in some cases barley out damaged healing on medivacs :L there still good units as a support caster (ultra-infestors is amazin) though and in low-econ situations
btw guys if your enemy opens 10pool with gas can you still open gasless? i feel i just lose y natural hatch and cant even counter because no ling speed? really starting to hate zvz tbh literally not played a zvz that wasnt a 10pool for like 2 weeks and at this stage im starting to lose the will to hit that ladder button
My go-to ZvZ build is: 15 pool 16 hatch 15 overlord 15 queen 17 zergling (straight to opponents base to scout his gas timing) 18 gas ----------- Up to this point it doesnt matter what your opponent does, the build should be playable. Now if a 10pool is incoming, you can defend the hatch by pulling 5-8drones with your first 4lings (the second set of lings is the first deviation of the standard build).
In general I think that gasless ZvZ is a very weak build if the opponent scouts it, gets zergling speed, pulls out of gas and gets a third while preventing yours with a few speedzerglings.
All that aside, the most fun ZvZ build is queing unranked and F10+n upon game start. You win (no more ZvZ), he (literally) wins. And everyone is happy (no shitass ZvZ!!!!!!!).
On October 17 2014 09:14 Enigmasc wrote: just wondering, is the best way to improve ? focus on one aspect of gameplay or one matchup at a time?
One aspect at a time really is the best way to do it. Perfect it and do it with another part, then put it together. I had a friend of mine take this off of injects and apply it to control too. The example he used was mutalisk control and keeping them active. He had me play vs a practice partner and stare at my mutas while droning and injecting; then just kept running the same scenario over a period of like 5 games. (This was before start from replay, but that's an excellent place to use it - start it from when you get your muta cloud and have your partner practice something specific too.) If you know anything about music, Pedagogy is a science to learning and can be applied to the game, which is essentially what this is. Isolate problems and practice them one at a time.
On October 19 2014 00:47 M4nkind wrote: Mkay, so I am high plat zerg and had a question about infestor - link bling into ultras style. Why is it not used much? I mean with good map awareness and well spread overlords you can intercept drops with neural parasite and push them under spores to kill fungle is good and mines can be activated with overlords on speed when attacking.
Players are so not used to it. Is there some weakness of infestors I don't know? I think of pursuing the play with them instead of mutas, as mutas seem so week when terran gets mines and thors. And today I got guite a few easy wins vs terrans as they seem totaly not used to handling it.
I was wondering why no pros play with them, is it cuz its so bad?
its not so much infestors are outright bad or anything,they just deal with drops worse than mutas do and unlike mutas they dont really force turrets ( since you cant really harass with them ), and there very gass heavy and so cut down bane count also worth noting the dps is prettybad and in some cases barley out damaged healing on medivacs :L there still good units as a support caster (ultra-infestors is amazin) though and in low-econ situations
btw guys if your enemy opens 10pool with gas can you still open gasless? i feel i just lose y natural hatch and cant even counter because no ling speed? really starting to hate zvz tbh literally not played a zvz that wasnt a 10pool for like 2 weeks and at this stage im starting to lose the will to hit that ladder button
My go-to ZvZ build is: 15 pool 16 hatch 15 overlord 15 queen 17 zergling (straight to opponents base to scout his gas timing) 18 gas ----------- Up to this point it doesnt matter what your opponent does, the build should be playable. Now if a 10pool is incoming, you can defend the hatch by pulling 5-8drones with your first 4lings (the second set of lings is the first deviation of the standard build).
In general I think that gasless ZvZ is a very weak build if the opponent scouts it, gets zergling speed, pulls out of gas and gets a third while preventing yours with a few speedzerglings.
All that aside, the most fun ZvZ build is queing unranked and F10+n upon game start. You win (no more ZvZ), he (literally) wins. And everyone is happy (no shitass ZvZ!!!!!!!).
or you can 9 pool into 1 base nydus swarm host and watch him die
On October 17 2014 10:33 Fecalfeast wrote: Is there a specific time hellions usually kill you? (before lair, before roaches, after taking a third base) or do they just always seem to end up on top of your drones?
If you're talking super early hellions, like the first 4 or so that a Terran makes, they usually arrive somewhere in the 6:40-7:00 time frame, good players correct me if I'm wrong.
The timing of standard reaper into hellion openings is that the Terran usually stops with the reaper harass right around 6 minutes when your zergling speed upgrade completes (that's the usual time it completes if you're going for an early gas and speed opener), then there's a really short breather, then you get the handful of hellions.
If you make extra queens, or use a partial walloff with evo chambers at the ramp to your natural expansion and queens blocking the gap, or even a pack of zerglings, you should easily fend these off. The partial wall off has to be started by around 6:30ish to be in time, and may require an early creep tumor to have creep at the ramp depending on the map.
If you are careless and let them in or have no defense, they can cause game ending damage and kill a huge portion of your workers.
The main effect of the early hellions seems to be to delay your third base and/or generally slow your economy by forcing you to make extra queens, lings or use drones to make early evo chambers instead of mining, and generally keeping you defensive inside your first two bases instead of expanding and creeping to your third and creeping out on the map. You either have to have enough queens and creep connecting to your third base to defend it and still block off your ramp to your first two bases, or have enough lings to kill or ward off the hellions so you can get your third base going.
In the current patch I feel like one of the big problems for Zerg is it's a bit hard to tell sometimes whether a pack of 7 hellions or so are standard early harassment or part of a build with an early armory that transforms them into hellbats just a little after the normal early hellion timing and can be game ending.
Just queens and lings that are easily good enough for hellions can be completely inadequate sometimes for defending hellbats, especially if you don't have GrandMaster level unit control.
On October 17 2014 10:33 Fecalfeast wrote: Is there a specific time hellions usually kill you? (before lair, before roaches, after taking a third base) or do they just always seem to end up on top of your drones?
If you're talking super early hellions, like the first 4 or so that a Terran makes, they usually arrive somewhere in the 6:40-7:00 time frame, good players correct me if I'm wrong.
The timing of standard reaper into hellion openings is that the Terran usually stops with the reaper harass right around 6 minutes when your zergling speed upgrade completes (that's the usual time it completes if you're going for an early gas and speed opener), then there's a really short breather, then you get the handful of hellions.
If you make extra queens, or use a partial walloff with evo chambers at the ramp to your natural expansion and queens blocking the gap, or even a pack of zerglings, you should easily fend these off. The partial wall off has to be started by around 6:30ish to be in time, and may require an early creep tumor to have creep at the ramp depending on the map.
If you are careless and let them in or have no defense, they can cause game ending damage and kill a huge portion of your workers.
The main effect of the early hellions seems to be to delay your third base and/or generally slow your economy by forcing you to make extra queens, lings or use drones to make early evo chambers instead of mining, and generally keeping you defensive inside your first two bases instead of expanding and creeping to your third and creeping out on the map. You either have to have enough queens and creep connecting to your third base to defend it and still block off your ramp to your first two bases, or have enough lings to kill or ward off the hellions so you can get your third base going.
In the current patch I feel like one of the big problems for Zerg is it's a bit hard to tell sometimes whether a pack of 7 hellions or so are standard early harassment or part of a build with an early armory that transforms them into hellbats just a little after the normal early hellion timing and can be game ending.
Just queens and lings that are easily good enough for hellions can be completely inadequate sometimes for defending hellbats, especially if you don't have GrandMaster level unit control.
I think zergs at not pro level should really not play the greed competition and get roach warren just in case, lings these days might not suffice
to comment on hellbat aggression: you can defend hellbat pushes with some combination of heavy queen production, baneling nest before upgrades/lair, 2-3 spore crawlers if there's a starport since hellbat pressure with medivacs can easily become hellbat drops, and maybe one spine depending on how heavy the push is. you don't need roaches if you really don't want them, and banelings obviously transition better into a standard macro game. roaches are kind of the "low control" defense because you can kite, they won't die quickly and terran might just give up the attack upon seeing a lot of them. but if you're late some hellbat/marine attacks can still focus down the first few roaches pretty quickly and snowball into GG.
one really great thing to remember with any hellbat build is that terran's upgrades end up somewhere from fairly late to ridiculously late (its like zerg going for fast spire) so you can cut upgrades for a pretty long time and still be even at worst. sometimes if i absolutely smash a hellbat attack and terran doesn't leave the game i answer with fast spire since terran will be behind in upgrades and most likely playing greedy to catch up from their failed opener. or you can counter baneling bust, play standard with a lead, or really do almost anything you want
this also means that if your scout is completely denied or you fuck up your scouting or it's late you can just throw down the baneling nest, be active with forward overlords/spotter zerglings, and simply morph banelings as soon as pressure comes. if terran is going 3CC or something you just never morph banes and your upgrades are 50 gas later, big deal. any lings you overproduce can be sent out for scouting or early counterattacks on terran's third base. if you built a spine you can move it to your third and make a tiny wall with your queen to be safer from hellion or hellbat pokes. but of course optimally you just avoid overcommitting in the first place with good scouting.
if you are a low or mid level player who struggles with reading terran builds, learning to read their addons can be extremely useful in trying to gauge what kind of pressure is coming. for example one of the most all-in hellbat attacks comes with an SCV count cut in the low 20's and a naked barracks (no addon) with a lot of marines behind the hellbats. if you see double reactor this is also almost a guaranteed tell of a hellbat/marine pressure, as otherwise terran will want a tech lab rax to begin researching stim. it's incredibly difficult to actually deny an overlord scout of the addons because terran wants all their buildings together for rapid addon switching. instead of doing an unnecessary overlord sac (unless you really really need to of course) just find a cliff and stare at his addons all day. or you can sac the overlord to check for armory if you want to.
i really prefer baneling/queen defense because it plays into my builds much more smoothly, and in the event of any hellbat/medivac builds the queens are amazing for sniping medivacs or zoning them if terran is jerking around with cutesy bait micro. you also don't need to commit to morphing the banelings until you scout the moveout, so you get more wiggle room to avoid overcommitting defense and accidentally derping back into an even macro game
keep in mind because hellbats are a short range unit and terran needs to get onto your production and mineral lines to do the necessary damage, ANY DELAYS ARE GREAT FOR YOU! you don't have to kill everything right away! one great way to lose with a baneling defense is to let terran kite backward a lot and spread out. if he does this, just back off yourself, since he's wasting time and giving you room to produce more units and build up energy on your queens. you should still build your evo chambers, both so you can choose when to start the upgrades and because in my opinion against a hellbat attack standard hellion sim city also helps funnel terran's units into an area where you can get baneling detonations/buffers a bit if they choose to try to kill your evos (which they do occasionally, i have no idea why they do this since they should already know that you should already be cutting your upgrades to defend). pull back your units a lot, use transfuses, focus any medivacs when possible, never engage with lings if not necessary and produce banelings nonstop until you have enough/the push is dead
hellbat attacks can seem really overwhelming if you haven't had a lot of practice defending them since the armory patch, but once you have a complete understanding of them they become just another pressure/allin you have to check for just like playing against protoss. if you prepare well you should come out in a great position unless your opponent hits an amazingly crisp timing and has strong micro
On October 19 2014 07:51 Alchemik wrote: or you can 9 pool into 1 base nydus swarm host and watch him die
I win from people doing that on ladder a lot recently, how did it get so popular anyways?
I didn't know it was popular
but it's aGile's build, maybe a lot of people saw it there and wanted to copy
pretty easy to counter though
i played agile once while he was offracing as protoss (unless it was some other "agile" in GM) and won haha he was fairly friendly in game and must have been streaming because he made a couple of weird comments that seemed to be directed at an audience lol
On October 19 2014 00:47 M4nkind wrote: Mkay, so I am high plat zerg and had a question about infestor - link bling into ultras style. Why is it not used much? I mean with good map awareness and well spread overlords you can intercept drops with neural parasite and push them under spores to kill fungle is good and mines can be activated with overlords on speed when attacking.
Players are so not used to it. Is there some weakness of infestors I don't know? I think of pursuing the play with them instead of mutas, as mutas seem so week when terran gets mines and thors. And today I got guite a few easy wins vs terrans as they seem totaly not used to handling it.
I was wondering why no pros play with them, is it cuz its so bad?
its not so much infestors are outright bad or anything,they just deal with drops worse than mutas do and unlike mutas they dont really force turrets ( since you cant really harass with them ), and there very gass heavy and so cut down bane count also worth noting the dps is prettybad and in some cases barley out damaged healing on medivacs :L there still good units as a support caster (ultra-infestors is amazin) though and in low-econ situations
btw guys if your enemy opens 10pool with gas can you still open gasless? i feel i just lose y natural hatch and cant even counter because no ling speed? really starting to hate zvz tbh literally not played a zvz that wasnt a 10pool for like 2 weeks and at this stage im starting to lose the will to hit that ladder button
My go-to ZvZ build is: 15 pool 16 hatch 15 overlord 15 queen 17 zergling (straight to opponents base to scout his gas timing) 18 gas ----------- Up to this point it doesnt matter what your opponent does, the build should be playable. Now if a 10pool is incoming, you can defend the hatch by pulling 5-8drones with your first 4lings (the second set of lings is the first deviation of the standard build).
In general I think that gasless ZvZ is a very weak build if the opponent scouts it, gets zergling speed, pulls out of gas and gets a third while preventing yours with a few speedzerglings.
All that aside, the most fun ZvZ build is queing unranked and F10+n upon game start. You win (no more ZvZ), he (literally) wins. And everyone is happy (no shitass ZvZ!!!!!!!).
or you can 9 pool into 1 base nydus swarm host and watch him die
you happen to play on eu at high dia level btw? had a clanmate rage to me about someone doing that to him last night XD
tbh i was wanting to try gassless because my ling/bane control is horrendous and honeslty im trying to skip that sort of shenanigans XD, tho in genraly my micro is definatly my weakest aspect of play side effect of not even knowing how to 10pool before diamond XD
in regards to hellbat pressure if you get a quick bane nest 6:30 ish and make small swell of lings you can backup and morph banes as you seem him morphing/moveout, target firing the medivacs with the queens its not too dificult to hold going banes, tho its ridiculously easier to hold with roach/queen it sets you back and gives you a useless unit for the midgame
Hello there, (almost) new Zerg player here. I'm currently looking to improve my self as a player and I was thinking of using just one BO/opener to focus primarily on my mechanics (injects, creep,etc) and also, but at a less extent, my game knowledge, scouting, decision making, etc. I was thinking of doing this until Plat/Dia (currently Silver) where, hopefully, I would have good mechanics to help me get into more complex strategy and tactics.
If you have any suggestions, critics or advice I'm happy to hear about them.
You could do gasless into 1/1 roach against every race. ZvT and ZvZ have some differences between them, but you can use just ZvZ one in ZvT even if its not optimal.
On October 21 2014 19:48 Zoopher wrote: Hello there, (almost) new Zerg player here. I'm currently looking to improve my self as a player and I was thinking of using just one BO/opener to focus primarily on my mechanics (injects, creep,etc) and also, but at a less extent, my game knowledge, scouting, decision making, etc. I was thinking of doing this until Plat/Dia (currently Silver) where, hopefully, I would have good mechanics to help me get into more complex strategy and tactics.
If you have any suggestions, critics or advice I'm happy to hear about them.
I recommend you to only focus on your macro mechanics, and not stuff like creep spread. Macro alone without any scouting, creep spread etc will easily take you to diamond.
I suggest doing the most simple 2 base roach build as a way to practice macro cycles (like a gasless 2 base build with 3 queens and 5 min double gas, third gas around 44 supply and a quick RW, lair then just spamming speedroaches). Focus on executing inject cycles and not so much on the actual games/outcome of the games:
1. Inject all hatcheris 2. Spend all larva that just popped on drones or roaches 3. Look at supply and build as many overlords from the self-popping larva as you need for your next inject
This is the fundamentals of zerg play and what you should learn before anything else if you want to improve as fast as possible. Once you are decent at this you can start trying out more real builds and then adding in some scouting and reactions.
Thanks for the reply's Sacred and Zheryn. Do you both think that Filters' Bronze To Masters build is a good starting point to improve on mechanics (I tried it for a little while, but due to its date 2012, it did not inspire much confidence in me) and not to think about strategy and other complex stuff until the higher leagues?
On October 21 2014 22:49 Zoopher wrote: Thanks for the reply's Sacred and Zheryn. Do you both think that Filters' Bronze To Masters build is a good starting point to improve on mechanics (I tried it for a little while, but due to its date 2012, it did not inspire much confidence in me) and not to think about strategy and other complex stuff until the higher leagues?
The big thing about filters stuff is benchmarking. Basically making sure you have the proper amount of supply and workers at set points of time. The "build" follows the same theme as the lowko video or Zheryns post.
Oh, ok. Then, I guess I'll keep doing Filters' guide until I reach Plat/Dia. After that, I will continue to improve my mechanics but start to delve into at least 1 BO per MU or one preferred style and pay more attention to scouting and strategy.
Ok guys, I'm top diamond with 75% ZvT but now its starting to be no fun. Really no fun.
Good terrans start beating me with the easiest build on earth. Open Standard, harass with 2 repears. Followup harrass with 4 hellions. At 6:30-7:00 I'm overlordscouting his main, looking for armory or anything. Of course, usually overlord gets sniped before I spot anything important besides factory with reactor.
30 seconds later, 8-10 hellbats are standing in my third, often with 1-2 non cloack banshees.
I think this push is a) super easy to execute b) super easy to hide armory early on c) extremly strong and d) only defendable with a huge bunch of safety roaches.
But the problem is - I have to build the roaches blindly if I ever hope to defend the push. Spotting the armory in time will happen in 1 of 5 games, at best. This basically means to me now, I have to build those saftey roaches every ZvT, which will make me safe against this yolo-push. But if terran does not do this push, I'm super far behind and can only follow it up with roach bane allin.
What happened to the matchup? This is not only boring, but also super annoying. Any advice for me?
On October 22 2014 02:23 KaneMX wrote: Ok guys, I'm top diamond with 75% ZvT but now its starting to be no fun. Really no fun.
Good terrans start beating me with the easiest build on earth. Open Standard, harass with 2 repears. Followup harrass with 4 hellions. At 6:30-7:00 I'm overlordscouting his main, looking for armory or anything. Of course, usually overlord gets sniped before I spot anything important besides factory with reactor.
30 seconds later, 8-10 hellbats are standing in my third, often with 1-2 non cloack banshees.
I think this push is a) super easy to execute b) super easy to hide armory early on c) extremly strong and d) only defendable with a huge bunch of safety roaches.
But the problem is - I have to build the roaches blindly if I ever hope to defend the push. Spotting the armory in time will happen in 1 of 5 games, at best. This basically means to me now, I have to build those saftey roaches every ZvT, which will make me safe against this yolo-push. But if terran does not do this push, I'm super far behind and can only follow it up with roach bane allin.
What happened to the matchup? This is not only boring, but also super annoying. Any advice for me?
Use Overlord Speed!
HyuN vs TaeJa on Merry Go Round is a pretty good example of this. HyuN's overlord gets denied, so he spends his next 100 gas (~6:00) on overlord speed, takes a 3rd, and makes a roach warren. When the overlord scouts a minute later, around 7:15, he can get a full scout of the base and decide whether to make roaches or start his +1/+1 upgrades. HyuN's build is obviously centered around going roach as well (as he gets lair before upgrades anyway), but you could just as easily do the same thing with ling/bling by making a baneling nest before lair and using the overlord scout to decide what's going on.
Obviously, going overlord speed slows down your mid game some, but if it prevents you from losing to a bunch of hellbat timings, it's probably worth it. Also, I highly recommend hiding 4-6 lings on the map and running them into your opponent's base about the time that 4-6 hellions arrive at your base, as this will probably get you most of the scouting info you need except maybe the armory.
On October 22 2014 02:23 KaneMX wrote: Ok guys, I'm top diamond with 75% ZvT but now its starting to be no fun. Really no fun.
Good terrans start beating me with the easiest build on earth. Open Standard, harass with 2 repears. Followup harrass with 4 hellions. At 6:30-7:00 I'm overlordscouting his main, looking for armory or anything. Of course, usually overlord gets sniped before I spot anything important besides factory with reactor.
30 seconds later, 8-10 hellbats are standing in my third, often with 1-2 non cloack banshees.
I think this push is a) super easy to execute b) super easy to hide armory early on c) extremly strong and d) only defendable with a huge bunch of safety roaches.
But the problem is - I have to build the roaches blindly if I ever hope to defend the push. Spotting the armory in time will happen in 1 of 5 games, at best. This basically means to me now, I have to build those saftey roaches every ZvT, which will make me safe against this yolo-push. But if terran does not do this push, I'm super far behind and can only follow it up with roach bane allin.
What happened to the matchup? This is not only boring, but also super annoying. Any advice for me?
What are you scouting for with your Overlord? I think that's the clue. If you try to find the armory you are fucked, because the armory can be anywhere on the map. What you should be looking for is: 1gas? Then it's not hellbat! (armory+starport+banshee/medivac take more) fast 3rd CC? Then it's not hellbat! fast stim research? Then it's not hellbat!
The setup for hellbats is usually: - reactored factory - plain barracks or with reactor - plain starport or with reactor
Basically, the moment you scout a barracks or Starport, either without techlab your alarms should go off. Also a marine number>2 after a reaper opening and before a techlab usually signals aggression. True, it could be another build as well, but a defensive anti-hellbat reaction if you scout such a setup should be good against something else too. While it isn't all that uneconomical, because even without an armory the Terran invested a lot in this setup.
Also banelings and a good amount of queens are really good against hellbat pushes. My highest priority after starting a 3rd is currently to get to 5-6queens and I prefer the baneling nest over the roach warren. True, roaches are more costefficient, but I usually already have zerglings on the battlefield, in which case morphing the already existing lings into banelings feels more efficient than adding roaches on top of the speedlings.
On October 22 2014 02:23 KaneMX wrote: Ok guys, I'm top diamond with 75% ZvT but now its starting to be no fun. Really no fun.
Good terrans start beating me with the easiest build on earth. Open Standard, harass with 2 repears. Followup harrass with 4 hellions. At 6:30-7:00 I'm overlordscouting his main, looking for armory or anything. Of course, usually overlord gets sniped before I spot anything important besides factory with reactor.
30 seconds later, 8-10 hellbats are standing in my third, often with 1-2 non cloack banshees.
I think this push is a) super easy to execute b) super easy to hide armory early on c) extremly strong and d) only defendable with a huge bunch of safety roaches.
But the problem is - I have to build the roaches blindly if I ever hope to defend the push. Spotting the armory in time will happen in 1 of 5 games, at best. This basically means to me now, I have to build those saftey roaches every ZvT, which will make me safe against this yolo-push. But if terran does not do this push, I'm super far behind and can only follow it up with roach bane allin.
What happened to the matchup? This is not only boring, but also super annoying. Any advice for me?
What are you scouting for with your Overlord? I think that's the clue. If you try to find the armory you are fucked, because the armory can be anywhere on the map. What you should be looking for is: 1gas? Then it's not hellbat! (armory+starport+banshee/medivac take more) fast 3rd CC? Then it's not hellbat! fast stim research? Then it's not hellbat!
The setup for hellbats is usually: - reactored factory - plain barracks or with reactor - plain starport or with reactor
Basically, the moment you scout a barracks or Starport, either without techlab your alarms should go off. Also a marine number>2 after a reaper opening and before a techlab usually signals aggression. True, it could be another build as well, but a defensive anti-hellbat reaction if you scout such a setup should be good against something else too. While it isn't all that uneconomical, because even without an armory the Terran invested a lot in this setup.
Also banelings and a good amount of queens are really good against hellbat pushes. My highest priority after starting a 3rd is currently to get to 5-6queens and I prefer the baneling nest over the roach warren. True, roaches are more costefficient, but I usually already have zerglings on the battlefield, in which case morphing the already existing lings into banelings feels more efficient than adding roaches on top of the speedlings.
There's actually a game floating out there that Innovation did with triple CC/fast stim and he still hits a hellbat timing (with marines and medivacs) at fucking 9:00. It's kind of ridiculous.
In any case, the situation he's describing looks like a normal hellion/banshee build, but how can you tell if it's a dedicated hellion/banshee pressure or something with hellbats? I would say the key here is probably whether or not your opponent stops at 6 hellions and starts stim, but even then, a hellbat timing is not out of the question, it's just a little later.
EPT
he was fairly friendly in game and must have been streaming because he made a couple of weird comments that seemed to be directed at an audience lol
side effect of not even knowing how to 10pool before diamond XD
