EPT[G] Roach Hydra in ZvT - Page 2
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Scurvy
United States117 Posts
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
Would you skip the Hydralisks and go into Infestors? | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On July 08 2012 21:16 Nimix wrote: Actually with the sick creep spread we see nowadays because of mass queens, it's not that bad, and this comp wrecks bio as I discovered some days ago :'( Then the guy transitionned into infestor ultras, but I played super bad and he shouldnt ever had come to this point. Hydras addition to your army mid game seems and interesting idea to me, as the hydra den builds super fast and you can kill all the medivacs with them, while investing less gas than for mutas.. It maybe could be used as a defensive army until you get to hive? I'm not sure if it's better than infestors, but I noticed that the mass medivac style negates fungals quite a bit, and maybe hydras would be better in this case.. It doesn't wreck bio. It gets countered by it. However, it's really strong vs bio in small numbers relatively, but all Terran has to do is scout it and camp vs it to win. I used to use Roach/Hydra exclusively on close positions ZvT back when they were still in the pool. | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
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BoggieMan
520 Posts
Other problems with it is that it costs alot of gas to make hydras and roaches, which delays your hive tech alot, and terran can trade effeciently as soon as he has a big enough tank count. If the terran chooses to go pure bio against roach hydra he is just not reacting correctly at all. This playstyle does seem viable, but i think that it is underpowered as how the game is right now compared to standard ling infestor into fast hive. I hope things like the hydra speed buff in hots might change that up a bit and make this style more viable. | ||
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
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AbstractSC
Greece28 Posts
I have done a lot of testing with Roach/Hydra vs Marine/Tank or Marine/Marauder/Medivac, and its true that Roach Hydra is not that bad in straight combat. But the big question that people have to ask before considering to use hydras in that matchup is what do hydras offer compared to either Muta/Ling/Bane or Infestor/Ling/Bane. Because if as a zerg you have 3 options, there's no reason to choose Roach/Hydra because its cool or whatever... The thing is Hydras don't offer anything unique in ZvT, that no other unit doesn't do better, cost for cost. Against Marine/Tank, either Muta tech or Infestor tech with Lings/Blings does equally well and it offers a much more natural transition to Hive, while its much faster, so it gives you tactical opportunities (Counter-Attacks, Defending Drops etc.etc.). The same goes for Marine/Marauder/Medivac. Against Banshees, yeah Hydras are good... But why make Hydras when you can go either Muta or Corrupter that are better vs that? (Or even Queens for defense.) Not to mention a lot of times vs Banshee you face Hellions as well. There are only 2 situations where i've figured Hydras are actually good in this matchup, but those are really really rare situations. The FIRST one is when ur getting all-ined from Terran who went Mech, with Mass Thors + a few hellions. In this situation actually Hydras pay for themselves, cause if you keep them behind you roaches they can deal sick damage to both thors and hellions, and also the problem vs these kind of pushes is that although your maxed on roaches ussualy, your army value is pretty low, so Hydras can make your 200/200 supply a lot stronger. The SECOND one is if you want to hit a timing with broodlords early on, (but only really really early on), so you can use them as a cheap support for broodlords vs vikings instead of infestors (which are a lot better however if you can afford them), and instead of queens in case your creep spread is not out on the map. So the Hydralisk doesn't offer anything unique in this matchup, that some other unit doesn't offer better cost for cost. As for the Build mentioned in the OP, this build is one of those builds that don't make any sense... For example it's mentioned in the "What can go wrong" - Being too passive... -.- That doesn't make any sense... Sometimes you can't choose to be aggressive or defensive. If the Terran is sitting behind Sieged Tanks, Bunkers, Marines and Turrets it's not an option to be aggressive before you reach Hive tech. You actually HAVE to sit back and be defensive. Ending my post i'd just like to say what's wrong with that unit, and why it's so bad in Wings of Liberty except ZvZ. The issues with this unit are: A) Extemely slow off-creep. The advantages of Zerg compared to the other races is the abilities to Retreat - Counter Attack - Reinforce. Hydralisks are not good in either of these. B) Really expensive for a glass cannon. I mean it costs 100/50, and it has 80 health... Zerglings cost 50 for 2 which is 70 Health in total. And it's not like it has better DPS per supply... C) Doesn't scale well. Generally speaking non-splash units don't scale well into the lategame, unless they're Air Siege Units like Broodlords/Carriers/Battlecruisers. D) The range upgrade is rediculously expensive. I just don't understand the cost... I mean it costs as much as Blink which is a Harrassive/Defensive/Aggressive upgrade, really versatile, while the +1 range makes hydralisks from bad to descent... Colossus High Tech +3 Upgrade - Thermal Lance costs 200/200. How does it make sense for +1 range to cost 150/150 for a unit that's not even supposed to stand alone and fight. E) Doesn't transition well into the late game. In other words the gas cost is too expensive for a unit that only has a role in the midgame, while it benefits from the range upgrade and not melee (which is more important for Hive Tech) and doens't unlock Hive tech like the Infestation Pit. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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warblob004
United States198 Posts
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Th1rdEye
United States1074 Posts
The thing is... most players will go for siege tanks in response to this especially if it's more common and terran thinks "Oh, he's going roach hydra" If bio really doesn't work against it, then they are dumb for thinking they have the power to stop it with pure bio, and any good terran will have learned this from a single loss to the strategy and be ready the next time. I don't see this being viable or much of a guide at all. It's an old concept. And in fact, its not always true that hydra roach can win. I saw a game at MLG of DongRaeGue vs MMA or MVP (i forget which one) where he tried roach hydra and got raped by bio midgame. Going to hive tech afterwards will be possible, but without maxing out on roach hydra (which is very gas intensive) or making infestors, you will probably end up dying trying to get the hive tech by a slow or aggressive terran push. Therefore, the hive tech will be much weaker and more delayed and since you spent so much gas on the units in midgame. Since time is always against you, it could end up meaning terran gets too big before you get enough hive tech units out to control the map and secure your outer expansions. On July 09 2012 04:24 FabledIntegral wrote: To be fair, the only nice thing I've noticed in Roach/Hydra is that you can snipe down medivacs faster. ^ this - In light of everything else... Hydralisks can be used against battlecruisers and banshee/air play if terran does something funky like that.. which probably wont happen in a serious match unless someone is a new boxer and totally redefines the matchup  - hydralisks can be used in broodwar :D | ||
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zala2023
United States228 Posts
beta builds are cool again | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On July 09 2012 05:15 zala2023 wrote: the metagame has gone full cycle beta builds are cool again Pretty much yeah >< | ||
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Stardroid
United Kingdom159 Posts
I have a couple of comments after watching your games- 1) terran generally went for a fast 3 bases, and you made units for a midgame push. You punished T for being greedy, which is what Ts tend to do now. I also see hellions at the start, which you deal with with roaches, and which do not help T out if you don't go lings: you attack, he goes 'oh'. It's a good sort of 'metagame' response as you point out, but there's no general build here, just a blind counter to greedy T. That's bad if you're expecting to 'blind counter'. As others mentioned, if T just turtled and tanked up for his 3rd base you would likely have big problems. 2) The game where the T goes on 2 bases he almost kills you with his 12 minute push, which had no upgrades, while you were at 1/1. That's not a good example game as he should have crushed you, but he was just bad. 3) Typically Ts might go for a 0930 to 10 min push with like mass marine or marine tank, I didn't see this in your games so I suspect it could cause big problems as you don't have access to hydra yet (am I wrong?) 4) You have no lategame in any game here, in which your army will not fare well, esp. marine tank medivac standard play but also with mass bio plus medivacs. In order to keep your army effective you need infestors against medivacs, and some sort of transition play with drops or nydus, but if you're constantly trading (as you say), then you just can't do all that 5) Ultimately I feel that T getting marine tank medivac and playing turtley-normal is going to ruin your midgame plans. As a platinum Zerg, I don't apologise for thinking I can criticise you, as I think each of my points sticks. I love love love hydras and want them to work zvt, which is why I read your post, but I feel you have the wrong end of the stick with them, just as people did in beta (which I did not play) and the first few months after release (which I did play). I have developed my own way of using hydras zvt, which is in fact more extreme than your solution and also more effective. I hope to post it down soon, for the good of the swarm. Stardroid, writing from space | ||
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moskonia
Israel1448 Posts
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Dontkillme
Korea (South)806 Posts
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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ajkayken
77 Posts
imagine the perfect 200food zerg army, broodlords ultras infestors all that jazz think of hydralisks as nothing more than the golden cherry topping off the diamond sprinkled cupcake 4 hydralisks (8food) sprinkled into your lategame army will deal tons of damage. they have 6range and while ultras/broodlings are tanking everything those 4 hydras will be dealing tons of damage for 8food think about it you got 20 infestors throwing out fungal growths dealing huge damage. imagine the hydras as just another source of fungal growth, but it requires no micro and you only get 8food of them hydra dps is very high and doesnt require you to keep pressing stim and they got 1 more range than marines. in comparison 4stalkers will be dealing pitiful dps compared to 4hydras in a 200food army. the problem with hydralisks is they suck horribly as a unit. they are horrible weak in every category, their ONLY strength is "damage per food" and THATS IT. if you get hydras as a combat unit, say 30 of them, they all clump up and their damage is wasted as none of them are firing and collossi or tanks vaporize them all. Also if you get hydras midgame you probably are spending money very stupidly. hydras imo only have 1 use but if you take advantage of that use, it basically makes your endgame army unbeatable with insane DPS of everything (fungals, broodlords, corrupters, queens, some hydras, everything). Adding a couple hydras to your army when your ALREADY at 200food can be compared to adding a couple voidrays to a protoss army when hes ALREADY at 200food. just a couple hydras and they will deal respectable damage. but you need upgrades (which hopefully you shoulda had if you were goin for some roaches) so this scenario is more likely to exist in PvZ because you get roaches in PvZ, most zergs only get 3-3 melee and ling/ultra/infestor/broodlord/corrupter/queen in ZvT | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
First time i saw a top Korean pro did this. Got utterly crushed by Marine/Medivac/Tank push. Roaches and hydras straight up lose to stimmed marine with medivacs and a couple of tanks. You can't do flanking as easily as ling/banes(more mobility).Hydras also melt really fast to tanks. Maybe if you implement drop tech and drop roaches/hydra over their army??? But then marines can just gunned down the OLs. You always need BANESSSSSSSSSSS to deal with marines/medivac.Period. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
And infestors are much better than hydras in ZvT. The only merit of hydras over infestors, in any match-up, is their timing (like in zvz, if you go infestors before hydras against someone going roach/hydra, you just straight up die at higher levels), but you don't need hydras (or infestors) at any particular timing, you are just getting infestors for the lategame for your bl or ultra army. They might have some merit if you needed hydras to survive some sort of all-in or timing, but there's no such timing in TvZ, and by the time you would need infestors or hydras, it's lategame, and you are more concerned about that 200/200 supply cap, than by cost. And while hydras are better than infestors in terms of cost efficiency, they aren't once the infestors pool energy, and they are not nearly as supply efficient. It would make no sense to add hydras to a lategame army when you can instead add queens, which have the same range and precious transfuse and aggressive creep spread for mass spine/spore complement, and infestors, which have aoe and scale much better lategame. | ||
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