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On July 09 2012 11:06 ajkayken wrote:
for all the zergs badmouthing hydras i want to say they do have a strength believe it or not
imagine the perfect 200food zerg army, broodlords ultras infestors all that jazz
think of hydralisks as nothing more than the golden cherry topping off the diamond sprinkled cupcake
4 hydralisks (8food) sprinkled into your lategame army will deal tons of damage. they have 6range and while ultras/broodlings are tanking everything those 4 hydras will be dealing tons of damage for 8food
think about it you got 20 infestors throwing out fungal growths dealing huge damage. imagine the hydras as just another source of fungal growth, but it requires no micro and you only get 8food of them
hydra dps is very high and doesnt require you to keep pressing stim and they got 1 more range than marines. in comparison 4stalkers will be dealing pitiful dps compared to 4hydras in a 200food army.
the problem with hydralisks is they suck horribly as a unit. they are horrible weak in every category, their ONLY strength is "damage per food" and THATS IT. if you get hydras as a combat unit, say 30 of them, they all clump up and their damage is wasted as none of them are firing and collossi or tanks vaporize them all. Also if you get hydras midgame you probably are spending money very stupidly.
hydras imo only have 1 use but if you take advantage of that use, it basically makes your endgame army unbeatable with insane DPS of everything (fungals, broodlords, corrupters, queens, some hydras, everything). Adding a couple hydras to your army when your ALREADY at 200food can be compared to adding a couple voidrays to a protoss army when hes ALREADY at 200food. just a couple hydras and they will deal respectable damage. but you need upgrades (which hopefully you shoulda had if you were goin for some roaches) so this scenario is more likely to exist in PvZ because you get roaches in PvZ, most zergs only get 3-3 melee and ling/ultra/infestor/broodlord/corrupter/queen in ZvT
it's not about badmouthing hydras, it's about them simply not working like you try to make one believe.
They are less costefficient than roaches and zerglings early, and less dps/versatility/supplyefficiency than infestors (or if you want them for AA, corruptors).
They don't have a place in "the perfect" Zerg composition. Only the most supplyefficient units get there: BL/Cor/Inf/baneling and to a certain extend Ultralisks. It is really as easy as this.
Hydralisks are useful when you have enough of stuff in the front to tank, but you are too limited by money to go for Infestors. (or you have enough infestors to chainfungal everything already - the reason why we see hydras often in ZvZ) - but that's basically all midgame stuff.
So no, you are really wrong here: Hydralisks suck in "damage per food" compared to the other options zerg has. If you want an army that has a lot of damage per food, try BL/Inf/Cor, or Ultra/Bling/infestor.
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So when are you getting the Nydus Networks to move your Hydras across the map in an instant, effectively removing one of their biggest weaknesses?
Guys, build Nydus Worms with your Hydra compostions. They cost so much less gas to build than either Mutalisks or Infestors, so use that excess to increase your mobility by absurd amounts.
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I'm bringing this thread back from the depths to share my opinion on Hydras and why I can make them work in the current metagame.
http://drop.sc/242068 - I'm currently a 1300+ masters Zerg on NA (so if it works that high up, I still think we can make it work if we pushed it) and one day I decided "I'm going to make Hydralisks in ZvT."
I've posted this replay in a smaller forum community of mine and discussed it with some peeps, since I'm too lazy to type out an entire new essay about why I think Hydralisks should work in the current metagame, I'll just copy/pasta what I posted there into this post (Keep in mind, I was also arguing with some EU elitist, so if there's any unchecked anger/bashing in the paste, sorry):
-Initial thoughts
"What I'm trying to do is emulate the same kind of playstyle that they used in the HotS battle report. I haven't watched it in a while so I can't confirm, but I remember them having quite the number of tanks and hydralisks still worked (though I don't have abduct to my disposal). When playing against Terrans who can't contain creep spread at all, I feel this would work wonders so long as you don't get your third base denied. You can delay infestor tech and possibly even close out the game before hand if you can manage to kill his entire army with hydra/ling/bane because hydras will DPS down medivacs in an instant after the fight is over and with added reinforcement you can push out to his base immediately and just close out the match."
- In response to counters
"But marine+medivac only? Are you forgetting the banelings? If you try to go mass marine you're going to get swarmed by banelings and medivacs get shut down by hydras so it's hard to tech into seige tanks while also trying to maintain a medivac count + more infantry. His biggest mistake was not denying the third early enough. This build works in no way at all without a third because of how gas intensive it is. Players who turtle mass seige tank (and get scouted turtling) will just have the entire map overwhelmed by Zerg. He was right to go marauders because they can tank baneling hits but he had nothing to remove the banelings out of play except for hellions but they didn't have blue flame. Hydralisks deny drops like CRAZY. So dropping isn't that strong of an idea unless you can REALLY catch the Zerg off guard."
Thanks to the current metagame of scared Terrans being scared and Zergs pushing out their creep to infinity and beyond, the speed of the Hydralisk isn't really that hindered assuming a Zerg's creep spread is good. I've yet to play enough games on this build just yet (standard ZvT opening 6 queen and just going double ups) but I feel that it can be made possible.
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Its also very difficult to transition out of this. I'd like to have an army that benefited from the upgrades earlier. Mobility is also a problem. I don't want to go back and forth from my base to defend drops. I think Quad Queen is sufficient enough to fulfill the hydralisk role and I'd still want to go mass lings.
Maybe this would work against a mech/banshee build, a perfect transition from pure roach/infestor.
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On August 06 2012 13:33 Tiirin wrote:
So when are you getting the Nydus Networks to move your Hydras across the map in an instant, effectively removing one of their biggest weaknesses?
Guys, build Nydus Worms with your Hydra compostions. They cost so much less gas to build than either Mutalisks or Infestors, so use that excess to increase your mobility by absurd amounts.
More gas efficient than mutas, yes..but may not necessarily be better. Hydras need creep to survive. Where-ever your Nydus worm pops out, there will be no creep for the hydras to move out and engage.
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I guess I should give my 2 cents about this.
Here's the theory behind it.
Terrans are taking advantage marines and their light switch strength when stim and combat shield are upgraded. Marines becomes so much more efficient and with the addition of medivacs, their survivability/mobility increases 10fold.
The reason why it's so powerful is that marine heavy compisitions only require minerals, and terrans have been able to stay off of high gas counts and allocate more scvs to minerals. In turn it gives Terran's the ability to get faster command centers, invest all their gas accurately into tech/upgrades/quality units.
Zergs have historically gone for zergling baneling roach infestor, or they have gone zergling baneling muta. There are two inherent problems with these that the medivac drops with marines still account for.
When you drop with small amounts of units, zergling baneling roach can't attack air and they are very inefficient travelling in a line to a location. It forces infestor energy out which leads to combination attacks, whether it be multiple drops, or just drop drop drop drop then 2-2 push.
Muta has been revisited because to deal with the drops and from here those styles were getting cleaned up... until people realized, oh mutas are god awful and i just max and win. With the huge economy that terrans have had, and the emphasis on upgrades and marine production, mutas have no harass potential. Meaning you're investing at least 500-700 gas on just clearing up something that might not even come(good terrans will not continue dropping in stupid locations if you're going muta). Also 500-700 gas is 4-5 infestors with no real end game value.
So when all of this combines, what you have is a terran that has upgrades on you and they have a starting medivac count(NOT GOOD). They have an advantage with their unit types going into that first 2-2 push.
You can be in shambles sometimes, you can be really far ahead if they mess up, but good terrans will pick you apart and make timings exist for some inevitable push off of a very fast 3 base.
Zerg's have started realizing that creep spread kills this style over a certain period of time, but then terrans realized that along with harassing economy, you also have to harass the creep. It's super important that you do that so you give way to a strong push. Hence we saw this spike in ZvT favoring zerg(in my opinion) when creep spread became so popular, and things narrowed out again since terrans realized they can't let creep enter their natural at 10 minutes into the game(herpderp)
I believe the go to has been Infestors. They are theoretically the optimal choice. People have tried to abuse the timing where theres no siege tanks out and a huge ling/bling attack will kill any amounts of units, but I think that's very unsafe. You're banking on there being no siege tanks, and Terrans will get the hang of it. Good terrans will switch over to tanks after going bio when they feel zergs are getting a grasp in their economy. That makes it so there's no hole.
Infestors are the go to right because they help out with the end game stages. Infestors are obviously very powerful as they support BLs so much, locking down vikings/marines.
So back to the OP, i was thinking on cast where hydras have a place. The opportunity cost 80% of the time is going to be the infestor tech. When do we get it, and in what order? hydra den first? infestation pit?
Where I see hydras:
prerequisite:
Against Bio as they are most effective and dealing the medivacs(zergling roach just can't reach it!)
You as zerg are going roach hydra ling
they are trying to get 3 bases with pressure
Note***** Infestor hydra broodlord against viking (^_^)!!!!! IE keep your hydras alive yo! They is good end game
They fit in right before infestors. Infestation tech really doesnt help with drop. It does help with pushes though. That's why if they're going 2 base push, you're better off with infestors as I think 4 gas isn't enough to get the essentials(tanks/medivacs/upgrades) The fungals will be a lot stronger in this case. That being said, hydras can snipe medivacs and wreck face.
Scouting bio exists. Get overseers. Scout terran, stop being lazy.
I have the assumption you're going 3 base. However you defend it normally. I think this style will be super strong against the powerful banshee/hellion builds that we've been seeing. Can you honestly imaging 6 roaches/6 hydras up against 3 banshees and 10 hellions? good micro can smash face. It's a great game changer imo.
Scout for 3rd CC while scouting bio. A good way to do this is to look for dual engineering bays. That tells you they're going more long game than not. ebays are expensive and it's not like SCBW. There are no sick 1-1 timings imo thats gonna smash face due to the power of the baneling!
How many:
hmmmmmm. den is 50 gas, upgrade is 100 gas(not sure if we want to get this) that's 1 infestor already
every 3 hydras are 1 infestor. Let's go with 9 hydras on the map. That's a good opportunity cost imo. The infestor count will be smaller and also it will have less energy, but they'll complete in time for any pushes imo.
Take with a grain of salt.
Theory crafting is all this is. also didn't check for grammar wahhhhhhhh don't be mad at me
Oh this is against the standard 1 rax expand itno some sort of 3rd cc. If they're going mech and getting a fast 3rd cc, plz punish.
-Gretorp
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While I can not vouch for this working at pro levels I am a NA masters zerg (No big deal I know), and I have tried this style in a few games and won them all handily.
Maybe its just that it suprised the terran and they don't scout it, but it is fairly strong and works suprising well. This combo will go toe to toe with a similarly sized bio army. Being able to pick off medivacs is very awsome as well.
Of course just roach hydra alone wont work in the late game, and as it has been said before if the terran is forced to turtle up the zerg will have free reign over the map and be able to get broodlords and infestors and all that good stuff.
This should be a transitional build that is designed to do damage and give you a way to slide into the late game. Its also a good thing if you're forcing the terran to make tanks, as they arn't that great vs brood lords. Roach/Hyrda/Infestors seems like it would be a pretty sturdy support system for your broods as well.
I guess everyone has their opinion but perhaps before telling the OP hes an idiot for even trying to think up something different and interesting they should maybe try it out for themselves.
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Why do so many people think that Roach/Hydra works in in ZvT when the last time it was seen in pro play was like over a year ago when Guineapig lost with it against Thorzain on Taldarim....?
Your aim is to trade armies with the terran all the time, but then you have hydras in your army, which is probably like the worst attacking unit zerg has because it is so immobile.
Sorry for being so negative, but it just baffles me why people try to learn subpar gameplans.
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^ It's because those pros clearly weren't thinking out of the box! Not everyone likes to play standard you know!
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On August 25 2012 17:17 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Why do so many people think that Roach/Hydra works in in ZvT when the last time it was seen in pro play was like over a year ago when Guineapig lost with it against Thorzain on Taldarim....?
Your aim is to trade armies with the terran all the time, but then you have hydras in your army, which is probably like the worst attacking unit zerg has because it is so immobile.
Sorry for being so negative, but it just baffles me why people try to learn subpar gameplans.
Darkforce
I know you haven't reading every message but it's been said already that hydras are not meant to actually confront a main army. They're used for stopping drops and limiting medivacs/banshee for the most part which has been how Terrans have been so greedy lately.
The thing is if you shut those down when you're going infestor you are ahead. Terrans have not been committing to a huge 2 base attack anymore like they use to so you're dealing with finesse play, not brute force play. You know you've had trouble dealing with drops.
This is not a binary strategy like HEY GUYS LETS ONLY USE ROACH HYDRA THE WHOLE GAME WAHHHHHHHHHHHH or NEVER USE HYDRAS EVER
obviously that's utterly stupid.
I'm not saying it's the most optimal, i'm not saying it is the goto, but I think it's worth testing out. You are being negative and I understand with your practice you probably shun this like crazy. Theoretically i think it has some merit, but maybe it doesn't. I think more tests need to be done as I do think there's a small 2-3 minute timing window where they are efficient.
But it's so stupid to quote one game and say ROACH HYDRA BAD THIS GAME HENCE HYDRA ALWAYS BAD. that logic is useless here.
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I don't see how this will work vs any competent terran, simply because hydras are shit vs: tanks, marines, reapers, helions, ghosts and HSM. Hydras may kill stuff fast, but they are way too fragile/slow to use, and if they have tanks they can just target your hydras no problem.
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On August 26 2012 04:21 Gretorp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 17:17 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Why do so many people think that Roach/Hydra works in in ZvT when the last time it was seen in pro play was like over a year ago when Guineapig lost with it against Thorzain on Taldarim....?
Your aim is to trade armies with the terran all the time, but then you have hydras in your army, which is probably like the worst attacking unit zerg has because it is so immobile.
Sorry for being so negative, but it just baffles me why people try to learn subpar gameplans. Darkforce I know you haven't reading every message but it's been said already that hydras are not meant to actually confront a main army. They're used for stopping drops and limiting medivacs/banshee for the most part which has been how Terrans have been so greedy lately. The thing is if you shut those down when you're going infestor you are ahead. Terrans have not been committing to a huge 2 base attack anymore like they use to so you're dealing with finesse play, not brute force play. You know you've had trouble dealing with drops. This is not a binary strategy like HEY GUYS LETS ONLY USE ROACH HYDRA THE WHOLE GAME WAHHHHHHHHHHHH or NEVER USE HYDRAS EVER obviously that's utterly stupid. I'm not saying it's the most optimal, i'm not saying it is the goto, but I think it's worth testing out. You are being negative and I understand with your practice you probably shun this like crazy. Theoretically i think it has some merit, but maybe it doesn't. I think more tests need to be done as I do think there's a small 2-3 minute timing window where they are efficient. But it's so stupid to quote one game and say ROACH HYDRA BAD THIS GAME HENCE HYDRA ALWAYS BAD. that logic is useless here.
It is not just one game though. Hydralisks just have this gas cost to them that makes them expensive to build for their utility.
Against drop defense, sporecrawlers are infinitely better because they are stronger, can take more damage, cost only minerals and a drone and most of all, cost no supply. In bruteforce army attacks, Hydralisks aren't useful because they clump up so easily and anything that stims with medivacs or shoots at them with AoE will kill them cost-effectively.
It is really just their gas cost because building hydralisks drains your gas bank really fast for basically a roach that can attack air but is slow as hell. You would rather have that gas to tech to hive units or infestors faster instead of having your death army delayed by a minute or two.
Basically they are only useful compared to queens is that they can be produced faster. Queens give amazing sinergy with any lategame army while Hydralisks really are good for one thing, a game ending timing attack.
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On August 26 2012 04:21 Gretorp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 17:17 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Why do so many people think that Roach/Hydra works in in ZvT when the last time it was seen in pro play was like over a year ago when Guineapig lost with it against Thorzain on Taldarim....?
Your aim is to trade armies with the terran all the time, but then you have hydras in your army, which is probably like the worst attacking unit zerg has because it is so immobile.
Sorry for being so negative, but it just baffles me why people try to learn subpar gameplans. Darkforce I know you haven't reading every message but it's been said already that hydras are not meant to actually confront a main army. They're used for stopping drops and limiting medivacs/banshee for the most part which has been how Terrans have been so greedy lately. The thing is if you shut those down when you're going infestor you are ahead. Terrans have not been committing to a huge 2 base attack anymore like they use to so you're dealing with finesse play, not brute force play. You know you've had trouble dealing with drops. This is not a binary strategy like HEY GUYS LETS ONLY USE ROACH HYDRA THE WHOLE GAME WAHHHHHHHHHHHH or NEVER USE HYDRAS EVER obviously that's utterly stupid. I'm not saying it's the most optimal, i'm not saying it is the goto, but I think it's worth testing out. You are being negative and I understand with your practice you probably shun this like crazy. Theoretically i think it has some merit, but maybe it doesn't. I think more tests need to be done as I do think there's a small 2-3 minute timing window where they are efficient. But it's so stupid to quote one game and say ROACH HYDRA BAD THIS GAME HENCE HYDRA ALWAYS BAD. that logic is useless here.
I didnt mean to take that game as a proof that its bad, i just meant it in a way that it has been ages since i have even seen such a thing.
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On August 25 2012 17:17 DarKFoRcE wrote:
Why do so many people think that Roach/Hydra works in in ZvT when the last time it was seen in pro play was like over a year ago when Guineapig lost with it against Thorzain on Taldarim....?
Your aim is to trade armies with the terran all the time, but then you have hydras in your army, which is probably like the worst attacking unit zerg has because it is so immobile.
Sorry for being so negative, but it just baffles me why people try to learn subpar gameplans.
Talk about selective memory. Hydra/roach were always noted to be good against pure Bio since season 1. But hydra usage fell out favor because noone was really comfortable with their speed compared to mutalisks, Kyrix showing everyone how good banelings were and the final nail in the coffin for hydra against pure bio were the increasing size of maps.
If you can force an engagement with hydras and roaches against bio and medivacs it is a disadvantage for the Terran unless the positioning was really off for the zerg army.
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Hello pros and everyone else,
I'm a scrub Plat player and have today defeated a Masters player with a hydraling timing:
http://drop.sc/243324
My opinion as to why this worked:
- Terran went 1rax expo into early 3rd
- Terran floated lots of mins as his buildings were late (this is what he told me after the game)
- Hydras are really good
And.. that's basically it. Oh, and I'm a badass (!).
Conclusion
So, frankly guys, if a Plat can beat a Masters with this timing, given an early third etc. then frankly you need to spend time on it.
Waffle
It doesn't really matter that the guy had less units than he should have, didn't scout the attack and get bunkers up, or really be in a position to spend his money well, he was being a greedy high level Terran expecting a comfortable game. If I can bust that, anyone can. The fact that this is a Masters Terran and I am a Platinum Zerg is a massive disparity; we are not in our respective leagues by chance (before you simply discredit my opponent). Any strategy that allows a gulf like this to be bridged should be labelled a 'good' strategy imo.
(Additionally, the fact that I breezed through his entire base is neither here nor there. I can't imagine one minute more of time (that he told me he needed) would have allowed him to send any units out without a massacre or establish a third base. He would need a lot of tanks to do that. Sure, you can switch to mech and go very tank heavy but he doesn't have the time without a third base: surely a good zerg player simply gets infestors and two more bases (and drop, but that's just rubbing it in), then hive tech.)
Stardroid,
Space
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I disagree with your point that spores are superior over hydras. I think you haven't tested it out enough to actually substantiate that claim. I've had a little bit of experimental data with both sides and it feels as if hydras are superior in that phase of the game. Of course there are a lot of prerequisites.
I want to vent a little bit of my frustration as well in this particular forum and explain why it's so hard to take part in any sort of strategy talk. It's because people don't read anything. I see things that go down all the time in this forum that people are just disregarding. It's like talking completely different conversations but then having very polar decisions about this. It's actually infuriating.
I think that's why it's really hard for newcomers/pros to come into this section and for it to spark debate/discussion.
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Tanks have 11 range fyi, not 13.
As a terran if i go up against roach/hydra i just mass expand and get a regular bio/tank army, a MMMS army with good upgrades just don't lose from my experience.
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I cant add anything substantial to the credibility of hydras but I too as a low master player often throw them into the mix verse some toss and Terran builds in the early mid game. I bind every overlord I build to 8 and then I research ovi speed as I drop the hydra den and make them all spread creep and build a creep highway. I will only do it on maps where I am relatively close to my opponent and using the creep highway I am able to reinforce with hydras. I can also retreat and use them with spines defensively or to stop drops but often if I don't do damage to the opponent with hydras I have already lost.
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Really like the idea of hydras in ZvT, could be really useful for defending annoying drops while giving your army some real power once the marine to medivac ratio starts to get low (immortal marines T_T). One concern though, transitioning to hive seems very unnatural. If bio terran sees your hydras fairly quickly, and starts throwing down factories to switch to mech (probably with marauders from the previous rax) would you have enough time to get melee ups and hive tech? Seems like it could be a difficult situation. Canceling the ranged ups to get melee ups would also create a pretty big timing window where you're just completely behind on upgrades. Dunno, I'm probably overthinking this since terran would have to switch from bio ups to mech ups anyway.
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how do u transition if the terran starts making teh tankz?
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EPT
