|
On September 01 2012 00:08 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 10:40 JaKaTaK wrote:
Say we are injecting 3 bases and lose the queen at the natural. With a layered inject, we can skip over that hatchery. With the base camera method, we cannot, we have to cycle through.
While this is theoretically true, I find it hard to believe that the layered inject person wouldn't go to that base to check if the next queen was done, and then go to the next base anyways, which would be equivalent to the base cam person pressing the base cam button one more time.
I understand what you're saying here. But I was talking about a situation where the player knew previously that the queen was dead and was still waiting for the replacement to pop up.
On September 01 2012 00:12 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 00:09 JDub wrote:On September 01 2012 00:02 Antylamon wrote:On August 31 2012 10:40 JaKaTaK wrote:
Drop defense is also superior with a layered inject method because we can go directly to the base we need to defend, without losing very important seconds going through the wrong bases to get to the right one. This could mean a saved tech structure, queen, hatchery, or drones.
Expanding is faster because you don't have to click on the minimap to move a drone there.
Worker transfers are faster because you can quickly go back and forth between bases to move workers and adjust your economy to keep it optimal.
All of these are false. Just because you use backspace injects doesn't automatically prohibit you from doing any of these. He is saying one is comparatively faster. He's not saying any of those things are impossible. You can play SC2 without using hotkeys at all, it doesn't mean that TheCore isn't more efficient. I think I didn't say it clearly enough the first time: I swapped Y and U so backspace injects could be more accessible. I had tried layered injects for a long while, thinking that I would become less error prone, but I did not. However, just because I had gone on to use backspace injects doesn't mean that I didn't keep on using the layered base cams for what Jak mentioned (drop defense, expanding, and worker transfers).
Okay, Antylamon is absolutely correct that you can use the backspace inject method and have base cameras setup. To me, this seems very inefficient because you have to make room for the base camera key, and late game, you have to shuffle through every hatchery you have to only inject 3-4 hatcheries.
Anylamon has a very specific experience with the layered injects where his physical gaming setup is preventing him from pressing ctrl+shift with his thumb comfortably.
I think you mentioned something about an inexpensive wrist support. I use a rolled up hand towel and it works great. I'm sure you can likely find something that'll work for you that is already in your home somewhere.
|
On September 01 2012 00:12 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 00:09 JDub wrote:On September 01 2012 00:02 Antylamon wrote:On August 31 2012 10:40 JaKaTaK wrote:
Drop defense is also superior with a layered inject method because we can go directly to the base we need to defend, without losing very important seconds going through the wrong bases to get to the right one. This could mean a saved tech structure, queen, hatchery, or drones.
Expanding is faster because you don't have to click on the minimap to move a drone there.
Worker transfers are faster because you can quickly go back and forth between bases to move workers and adjust your economy to keep it optimal.
All of these are false. Just because you use backspace injects doesn't automatically prohibit you from doing any of these. He is saying one is comparatively faster. He's not saying any of those things are impossible. You can play SC2 without using hotkeys at all, it doesn't mean that TheCore isn't more efficient. I think I didn't say it clearly enough the first time: I swapped Y and U so backspace injects could be more accessible. I had tried layered injects for a long while, thinking that I would become less error prone, but I did not. However, just because I had gone on to use backspace injects doesn't mean that I didn't keep on using the layered base cams for what Jak mentioned (drop defense, expanding, and worker transfers).
Ohhh I understand you now, that makes a lot more sense. In that case, I agree with you
|
after 62 pages of discussion and improvements, still in beta testing?
come on guys you sure you aren't being lazy? no offence. I like your hard work on this layout overall thank you.
|
@seriouslywtf
I create tools and help people improve at starcraft at least 8 hours a day and usually more like 11. That was a very insulting comment and completely unnecessary. You could have just as easily said, "I am really excited for the full release, I hope it will be soon" and would have gotten the same point (you want the beta to be over) across without insulting us.
In other news. I am working on version 0.4 right now. Its going to feature some big improvements for the zerg as well as some aesthetic things that people have been asking for.
Feel free to stop by and ask any questions you might have.
www.twitch.tv/thejakatak
|
On September 01 2012 01:14 JaKaTaK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 00:08 JDub wrote:On August 31 2012 10:40 JaKaTaK wrote:
Say we are injecting 3 bases and lose the queen at the natural. With a layered inject, we can skip over that hatchery. With the base camera method, we cannot, we have to cycle through.
While this is theoretically true, I find it hard to believe that the layered inject person wouldn't go to that base to check if the next queen was done, and then go to the next base anyways, which would be equivalent to the base cam person pressing the base cam button one more time. I understand what you're saying here. But I was talking about a situation where the player knew previously that the queen was dead and was still waiting for the replacement to pop up. Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 00:12 Antylamon wrote:On September 01 2012 00:09 JDub wrote:On September 01 2012 00:02 Antylamon wrote:On August 31 2012 10:40 JaKaTaK wrote:
Drop defense is also superior with a layered inject method because we can go directly to the base we need to defend, without losing very important seconds going through the wrong bases to get to the right one. This could mean a saved tech structure, queen, hatchery, or drones.
Expanding is faster because you don't have to click on the minimap to move a drone there.
Worker transfers are faster because you can quickly go back and forth between bases to move workers and adjust your economy to keep it optimal.
All of these are false. Just because you use backspace injects doesn't automatically prohibit you from doing any of these. He is saying one is comparatively faster. He's not saying any of those things are impossible. You can play SC2 without using hotkeys at all, it doesn't mean that TheCore isn't more efficient. I think I didn't say it clearly enough the first time: I swapped Y and U so backspace injects could be more accessible. I had tried layered injects for a long while, thinking that I would become less error prone, but I did not. However, just because I had gone on to use backspace injects doesn't mean that I didn't keep on using the layered base cams for what Jak mentioned (drop defense, expanding, and worker transfers). Okay, Antylamon is absolutely correct that you can use the backspace inject method and have base cameras setup. To me, this seems very inefficient because you have to make room for the base camera key, and late game, you have to shuffle through every hatchery you have to only inject 3-4 hatcheries. Anylamon has a very specific experience with the layered injects where his physical gaming setup is preventing him from pressing ctrl+shift with his thumb comfortably. I think you mentioned something about an inexpensive wrist support. I use a rolled up hand towel and it works great. I'm sure you can likely find something that'll work for you that is already in your home somewhere.
Personally, You guys shuldn't argue about that inject method, That's the best way of doing it made till today. Like big time. Thats from my low-gm perspective.
ps. and to all who thinks that clicking two buttons with a thumb is hard, I would argue that clicking one with pinki is harder anyway.
|
On September 01 2012 03:34 seriouslywtf wrote:
after 62 pages of discussion and improvements, still in beta testing?
come on guys you sure you aren't being lazy? no offence. I like your hard work on this layout overall thank you.
And what's the diffirence between beta and no beta for you anyway? -.-'
|
On September 01 2012 03:55 Sapp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 03:34 seriouslywtf wrote:
after 62 pages of discussion and improvements, still in beta testing?
come on guys you sure you aren't being lazy? no offence. I like your hard work on this layout overall thank you. And what's the diffirence between beta and no beta for you anyway? -.-'
When the Beta is over, we will have:
48 versions of TheCore
-this accommodates for 3 hand sizes, 4 race options, left and right hand, and 2 or 4 button mouse configuration.
Artwork and explanation as well as documents with organized data to make it easy for everyone to understand.
Videos explaining all the ins and outs of TheCore along with a more fleshed out FAQ section.
We'll get there as soon as we can. Thanks to everyone for your patience and support.
|
On September 01 2012 03:51 JaKaTaK wrote:@seriouslywtf I create tools and help people improve at starcraft at least 8 hours a day and usually more like 11. That was a very insulting comment and completely unnecessary. You could have just as easily said, "I am really excited for the full release, I hope it will be soon" and would have gotten the same point (you want the beta to be over) across without insulting us. In other news. I am working on version 0.4 right now. Its going to feature some big improvements for the zerg as well as some aesthetic things that people have been asking for. Feel free to stop by and ask any questions you might have. www.twitch.tv/thejakatak
I am deeply sorry. I didn't want to insult or offend you in any way.
|
My girlfriend just said "I would ask why you are removing keys from the keyboard but I'm afraid to know the answer..."
Lol.
|
Hi all, I'm a platinum level terran, and I switched to TheCore TRM about 3 weeks ago. I used the standard layout before, and it took me about a week to feel right when using this setup. I am not a very active player, I mostly made sessions on YABOT maps, since I was also trying to learn a couple of builds in the same time.
Especially in the beginning, I feel the ability to restart a map asap is really helpful, especially when things are not yet working out well, so I strongly recommend practicing with YABOT or another build order tester (but it's still a matter of personal preference).
I very much like the feel of the layout, and it is much easier for me to both macro and micro, since I always felt the keys on the standard layout were too spread apart. I especially love the thumb usage here, for macro and camera locations both.
In sc2gears terms, I went from 140/90 avg. APM/EAPM to 180/120 in these weeks, and I'm sure that getting comfortable with TheCore played a large factor in this.
I'd like to mention the fact that I started using this on a flat laptop keyboard, where I had to use three fingers to be able to use ctrl+shift+camera_key... Since then, I got my new keyboard, a Ducky, and everything feels awesome. I'm mentioning this because as awkward as it was using the laptop's keyboard, it wasn't that much in my way to be able to use the setup well.
I do still have some difficulties, however minor, with some key combos - ' and u are kind of awkward to press together (afaik the 'u' key should be pressed with my ring-finger), and I often screw it up, building a rax instead. ',' for cloak is a bit weird, even after tilting my keyboard, should I try something else, or is it just that I'm not used to it enough yet?
One other issue I have is messing up my control groups, but it isn't from the ctrl+shift combo, but from bad shift-key usage (I think). In any case, I don't find it easier to make mistakes with this setup, in fact I think it's the other way around (except ebays?).
I'm also using a different setup for the control groups, though I don't believe it to be any more efficient than the suggested one; I'm probably going to switch it up. I do feel I need the upgrade facilities on a separate hotkey, as it makes it easier for me to manage them without too much tabbing.
P - CCs
O - Rax/Fax/Port
[ - ebays/armories/...
9 - MMM ball
0 - tanks/medivacs(MMM)
- - raven/ghosts/vikings
= - banshees/raven/harass
; - scout/misc
L - scout
. - harass/misc
So, tl;dr : great layout, much thanks for all the hard work!
|
Just a question for the brotoss with 4th and 5th mouse keys out there using this, what do YOU set to your control keys? im still experimenting but as of now I have mouse 4 for scouting probe, mouse 5 for main army, 9 for nexus, 0 for production facilities
|
Awesome all. I think the most important thing is to have the production on the home keys. (P and O for JIOP players)
EDIT: (on the 4th and 5th mouse buttons for those who utilize them)
Other than that, a lot is up to personal preference. The things you will be checking more than anything else are your 2 production control groups and having them on the home keys is a major advantage. (one of the bigger ones that TheCore offers)
|
JaK ol buddy, remember production goes on the mouse for mouse enhanced because, when using the mouse buttons accuracy suffers for a fraction. Since marco's next action is on the keyboard, this loss of accuracy is acceptable, but can be a problem when microing in a battle.
That said, you don't HAVE to relearn it, the loss of accuracy is small. We're just optomizing for pro players.
JaK uses the keyboard only version, so he's not as familiar with it.
|
i fix, i fix :D
Made some serious headway on 0.4 today. Going to crack into those auto-cast abilities tomorrow morning :D
|
On September 01 2012 03:53 Sapp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 01:14 JaKaTaK wrote:On September 01 2012 00:08 JDub wrote:On August 31 2012 10:40 JaKaTaK wrote:
Say we are injecting 3 bases and lose the queen at the natural. With a layered inject, we can skip over that hatchery. With the base camera method, we cannot, we have to cycle through.
While this is theoretically true, I find it hard to believe that the layered inject person wouldn't go to that base to check if the next queen was done, and then go to the next base anyways, which would be equivalent to the base cam person pressing the base cam button one more time. I understand what you're saying here. But I was talking about a situation where the player knew previously that the queen was dead and was still waiting for the replacement to pop up. On September 01 2012 00:12 Antylamon wrote:On September 01 2012 00:09 JDub wrote:On September 01 2012 00:02 Antylamon wrote:On August 31 2012 10:40 JaKaTaK wrote:
Drop defense is also superior with a layered inject method because we can go directly to the base we need to defend, without losing very important seconds going through the wrong bases to get to the right one. This could mean a saved tech structure, queen, hatchery, or drones.
Expanding is faster because you don't have to click on the minimap to move a drone there.
Worker transfers are faster because you can quickly go back and forth between bases to move workers and adjust your economy to keep it optimal.
All of these are false. Just because you use backspace injects doesn't automatically prohibit you from doing any of these. He is saying one is comparatively faster. He's not saying any of those things are impossible. You can play SC2 without using hotkeys at all, it doesn't mean that TheCore isn't more efficient. I think I didn't say it clearly enough the first time: I swapped Y and U so backspace injects could be more accessible. I had tried layered injects for a long while, thinking that I would become less error prone, but I did not. However, just because I had gone on to use backspace injects doesn't mean that I didn't keep on using the layered base cams for what Jak mentioned (drop defense, expanding, and worker transfers). Okay, Antylamon is absolutely correct that you can use the backspace inject method and have base cameras setup. To me, this seems very inefficient because you have to make room for the base camera key, and late game, you have to shuffle through every hatchery you have to only inject 3-4 hatcheries. Anylamon has a very specific experience with the layered injects where his physical gaming setup is preventing him from pressing ctrl+shift with his thumb comfortably. I think you mentioned something about an inexpensive wrist support. I use a rolled up hand towel and it works great. I'm sure you can likely find something that'll work for you that is already in your home somewhere. Personally, You guys shuldn't argue about that inject method, That's the best way of doing it made till today. Like big time. Thats from my low-gm perspective. ps. and to all who thinks that clicking two buttons with a thumb is hard, I would argue that clicking one with pinki is harder anyway.
I'm not arguing about it, I'm trying to find a way to switch back to layered injects since I hear so many good things about it, yet I can't use it effectively atm :/
And I don't think it is difficult in any way to press ctrl+shift, if you were directing that at me. It's only difficult to hold them down for an extended period of time, for instance a full second. It's also pretty easy for me to use the pinky, actually. It's the finger I've been using for the base cam key for injecting.
Next morning I'm going to try finding something I can rest my wrist on so I can give layered injects another shot. I'm thinking a plushie, if I can find one which is the right shape 
On September 01 2012 03:34 seriouslywtf wrote:
after 62 pages of discussion and improvements, still in beta testing?
come on guys you sure you aren't being lazy? no offence. I like your hard work on this layout overall thank you.
Bahahahahah your username is so fitting
|
On September 01 2012 11:56 FoxyMayhem wrote:
JaK ol buddy, remember production goes on the mouse for mouse enhanced because, when using the mouse buttons accuracy suffers for a fraction. Since marco's next action is on the keyboard, this loss of accuracy is acceptable, but can be a problem when microing in a battle.
That said, you don't HAVE to relearn it, the loss of accuracy is small. We're just optomizing for pro players.
JaK uses the keyboard only version, so he's not as familiar with it.
I just realized, is there anyone who plays ZRMM or ZLMM that can tell me how difficult it is to inject compared to hatch and queen control group hotkeys being on the keyboard? Since you can literally inject in the middle of a battle with any decent inject method, this might pose a problem when you could normally jump to and from a battle.
|
Anty, I use a folded up shirt. I find 5 layers of material is perfect, but you find what you need.
As for your last post, I inject in the middle of battle all the time using the mouse and layered cameras. Why do you think it might be a problem?
I'm glad you're still trying to give layered cameras a chance. Good luck!
|
On September 01 2012 04:01 JaKaTaK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 03:55 Sapp wrote:On September 01 2012 03:34 seriouslywtf wrote:
after 62 pages of discussion and improvements, still in beta testing?
come on guys you sure you aren't being lazy? no offence. I like your hard work on this layout overall thank you. And what's the diffirence between beta and no beta for you anyway? -.-' When the Beta is over, we will have: 48 versions of TheCore -this accommodates for 3 hand sizes, 4 race options, left and right hand, and 2 or 4 button mouse configuration. Artwork and explanation as well as documents with organized data to make it easy for everyone to understand. Videos explaining all the ins and outs of TheCore along with a more fleshed out FAQ section. We'll get there as soon as we can. Thanks to everyone for your patience and support.
A lot of players use 7 button mouses. Like xai & sensei for instance. I've gotten reasonably good at pinky sidebuttoning ^^
|
On September 01 2012 06:03 kmillz wrote:
My girlfriend just said "I would ask why you are removing keys from the keyboard but I'm afraid to know the answer..."
Lol.
My brother went even more insane.
To get a small sense of keeping my fingers right i took a few "free buttons" which are the orange ones included in most keyboards and actually glued a piece of this(http://imgur.com/nVX0y) to it and i can't remember the name of it. This helps "feeling" where the keys are if i get my hands misplaced. Also, i switched the JIOP buttons so i would relate the finger to the button instead of the letter to the button.
This drove my brother nuts when he tried to type stuff and wondered why his password was wrong so many times.
It really helps though :D
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
