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On September 03 2012 04:16 prOpSaiton wrote:
Finally starting to get a little bit used to the layout of TRM on a nordic QWERTY(Lost to an NA gold toss yesterday and smacked diamonds today) but i have a few concerns as of now.
I feel like i want to use the spacebar for something that i currently have zero idea what it should be and need suggestions from other users. Rallypoint cam? Base jump cam? What works good for you?
How about using it for a control group? Space bar goes perfectly when you press K/F, I/R, or J/G directly afterwards with your ring finger, so that's the best thing I can think of.
It would go perfectly with Evo+Spire/E-Bay+Armory/Forge+Cyber. Unfortunately, that's not really an option since it wouldn't improve anything, with P/W being the key for Macro 1, meaning it is 2000x more accessible than if it were on the space bar. The accessibility issue is the case for almost every control group.
That leaves Comma/C, since it is one of the only control groups which is about as difficult to press as space.
EDIT: Decided to overachieve and do my analysis for all layouts.
It is currently used for Harass. K/F is the key for unload, PDD, and Viking land, Psi Storm, and Contaminate, making it PERFECT for harass.
On the Toss layout, Psi Storm and Unload are I/R, and Feedback and Warp Prism Phase Mode are K/F instead, so it's slightly less useful, but still great.
For Terran, it's the same as Random.
For Zerg, Unload and Contaminate are I/R, just like Toss, BUT Infested Terran is K/F :DDDDDDD
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I actually feel like the BIGGEST dumbass right now lol. I didn't watch the videos, and therefore didn't notice it was JIOP; I was doing JKL; which might make it a lot easier! Thanks and I'll watch the rest of the videos xD
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On September 02 2012 07:36 FoxyMayhem wrote:
Great post, KoT, that is a lot of work. What you're doing is what we did with our "Systems" section -- though we never wrote them down. I think having illustrations like this is great for working with, especially your list of easy keys to combo.
JaK and I will look and compare what .4 is turning out to be to see if how we can improve it. Thank you for your work!
@ Antylamon: That's only for a fraction of a second, and it is not a problem when the next action is on the keyboard. Since we put production facilities on the mouse, the next action is producing units or calling down mules. This means there is no loss of accuracy when accuracy is needed.
Thanks, my screenshot/paint/powerpoint combo took a bit longer than I expected
Anyway I appreciate the hours you guys put into this. Keep it up!
On September 02 2012 12:42 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 06:14 King of Town wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9HeF9.png) This is how hard the keys are to reach for me. Might be personal, I dunno. Period would probably be better off as yellow. I can hit it ridiculously easily with my index finger, rather than the middle finger as suggested in the OP, if I recall correctly. Apostrophe might be yellow or orange, kinda iffy. Comma seems like it should be orange. When I concentrate on doing it quickly, it's so much easier. (With ring finger) 7 should be red. It's the hardest-to-reach used key. All imho. Great work on all of those pics 
Thanks! Yeah it's all kinda personal. I'm expecting you're right about the keys since I'm only now practicing TheCore.
My main points are to look into Build commands and to assign similar commands to the individual keys. It's very feasible.
On September 02 2012 14:16 JaKaTaK wrote:Holy shit... That was some serious work King of Town. Thanks a lot We'll definitely look into what you've brought up here and see if it'll help with 0.4. Damn man, well done.
Keep it up! I'll def. check out 0.4 when you post it
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On September 03 2012 05:06 Antylamon wrote:
It is currently used for Harass. K/F is the key for unload, PDD, and Viking land, Psi Storm, and Contaminate, making it PERFECT for harass.
So thankful for that extra bit of analysis.
I'll try to feel what works best as i currently have a separate hotkey for 2 different dropships that i can jump to whenever i need(thank god for åäö in nordic keyboards) and a third harassment key might get a bit superfluous but it also might prove better than one of the keys i'm currently using.
Artosis did a video on hotkeys and he used his spacebar as a positional hotkey to make chronoboosts easier. Granted, he doesn't use The Core and as a Terran i'm in no need for chronoboosts but it's still a very very clickable button. One thought is also to work it in as a scan button. I don't know, i'll experiment with both tomorrow and see what i'm able to come up with.
On September 03 2012 05:11 Mavvie wrote:
I actually feel like the BIGGEST dumbass right now lol. I didn't watch the videos, and therefore didn't notice it was JIOP; I was doing JKL; which might make it a lot easier! Thanks and I'll watch the rest of the videos xD
I did a similar flub when i started. I twisted the keyboard the wrong way and convinced myself i had it right until finally after a night until my wrist hurt so bad that i had a hard time playing and still wanted to "power through it" because i figured i'd get used to it. A few hours later i checked again and took a huge sigh of relief when i found the comfort of turning the keyboard the right way.
Also i discovered a new kind of personal rage whenever i'm losing against players i would have single handedly beaten with my old setup. Taught me in a new way that even with my sense of macro that worked at a mid master level everything goes to shit when i reset my mechanics. Really goes to show how important it is.
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emoticons they really mean everything, and no I had other things to do so i figured i'd wait for someone reasonable to respond to me. and I asked a question in an unemotional unbiased way, i merely stated that i thought it was alittle weird for them to be setup in that particular way.
That being said I appreciate both Jakatak and Anvills answers thank you very much for taking the time to read my question
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I meant the way you bashed on Sapp -.-
He answered your first question, then you unleashed fury on him just because he didn't meticulously answer your question.
Either way, clean slate. Carry on.
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On September 03 2012 04:02 Antylamon wrote:
Anyways, layered injects are pretty nice so far, but I put a lot more strain on my wrist using them when I did using backspace injects. Am I doing something wrong or am I just getting used to using 4 buttons rather than 1 to go through bases while injecting?
You are not wrong. But that said, layered cameras are not about being easier or about speed,
(compared to backspace method)+ Show Spoiler +(But as i think about itnow, it's rather hard to decide if it is faster to click one button 5 times or 5 buttons all with diffirent fingers just onse)
It's about controll. Because you always know what is going on, while with backspace method, you never know where that button takes you. So let's just say that one of your queens just died, or you have more hatches than queens, everything goes to hell. Queens began to walk around like morons. especialy lategame while macroing on 5bases+
In addiction to that, you have easy way to go back with the screen to any base you want.+ Show Spoiler +(and that without being forced to waste control groups on them)
It's super fun to transfer drones with that because while using ctrl + shift + <x> you are not loosing your previous selection etc.
tl;dr: Layered cams aren't easier to use, but are better. And there are just alot of reasons. A milion small things that make the game alot more efficient and fun.
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On the Spacebar.
Its a shitty key. Slower to press than any of the keys we're using in TheCore right now. I wouldn't suggest using it, for the simple reason that there are much closer, faster to press keys available.
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Hello,
I have a couple questions about TheCore, sorry if they have been asked before but this thread is pretty big. I have 2 issues so far that seem to prevent me from using TheCore: I do not have enough desk space accommodate keyboard tilting and popping keys is out of the question for me.
I really like the concepts behind TheCore, JIOP tracing the resting fingers natural curvature, the separation of tasks between index/middle and ring/pinky, the idea that there's better coordination when hands are closer together. I also like that this is based on data analysis instead of just a rationalization of whatever the creator happens to be comfortable with.
However, since I can't tilt the keyboard, JIOP doesn't feel right, and since I can't pop keys out pressing shift with the thumb is awkward at best.
Is there a variant of TheCore that doesn't require doing those two things? Say it uses YUIL and alt or space instead of shift. If not, could someone recommend an alternate efficient layout?
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The problem there is that you cannot rebind the function shift has to any other key at the moment within SC2. You could with an external program but then most tournaments ban those. This means you have to choose one side of the keyboard, and you can't use the middle of the keyboard.
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On September 03 2012 11:38 JaKaTaK wrote:
On the Spacebar.
Its a shitty key. Slower to press than any of the keys we're using in TheCore right now. I wouldn't suggest using it, for the simple reason that there are much closer, faster to press keys available.
Really? I find tabbing it with the the top of my palm (the 'lump' right under the pinky) to be pretty straight forward. I havent used it though. maybe for rallycam or 'jump to alert'.
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On September 03 2012 23:47 Banj0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 11:38 JaKaTaK wrote:
On the Spacebar.
Its a shitty key. Slower to press than any of the keys we're using in TheCore right now. I wouldn't suggest using it, for the simple reason that there are much closer, faster to press keys available. Really? I find tabbing it with the the top of my palm (the 'lump' right under the pinky) to be pretty straight forward. I havent used it though. maybe for rallycam or 'jump to alert'.
ya, me too, but I assume thats keyboard dependent.
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If you find the spacebar comfortable, then by all means go for it. But I don't see how its faster than pressing something like 7yhb.
@enanoretozon
I can't think of a reason why removing key caps would be "out of the question". Its going to make you a better player, sc players have been doing it since brood war, and TheCore does not function properly without it. The foundation of the core is using the thumb for the modifiers (ctrl, alt, shift) with the thumb to increase speed and the number of comfortable key combinations as well as Ctrl+click and Shift+click.
With regards to not having desk space, the only idea I can think of (aside from changing your gaming environment) is using the keyboard on your lap. This might actually prove to be more comfortable than any other setup, but I haven't experimented with it just yet so i'm not sure.
Hope that helps.
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On September 03 2012 14:41 enanoretozon wrote:
Hello,
I have a couple questions about TheCore, sorry if they have been asked before but this thread is pretty big. I have 2 issues so far that seem to prevent me from using TheCore: I do not have enough desk space accommodate keyboard tilting and popping keys is out of the question for me.
I really like the concepts behind TheCore, JIOP tracing the resting fingers natural curvature, the separation of tasks between index/middle and ring/pinky, the idea that there's better coordination when hands are closer together. I also like that this is based on data analysis instead of just a rationalization of whatever the creator happens to be comfortable with.
However, since I can't tilt the keyboard, JIOP doesn't feel right, and since I can't pop keys out pressing shift with the thumb is awkward at best.
Is there a variant of TheCore that doesn't require doing those two things? Say it uses YUIL and alt or space instead of shift. If not, could someone recommend an alternate efficient layout?
if you are unable to tilt the keyboard and remove keys, The Core is probably not going to be usable.
However there are two older layouts that these guys have made, Dark Grid and Chameleon, that are on the left side of the keyboard and require no keys to be removed but are still very efficient.
personally before The Core was out I like Chameleon best.
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Hey,
Is there any reason that for the warp prism converting to Phasing mode and converting to Transport mode are on different keys? I like having them both on the same key, it is much easier to hit K and flee than hit M.
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On September 04 2012 09:40 DeathToSquid wrote:
Hey,
Is there any reason that for the warp prism converting to Phasing mode and converting to Transport mode are on different keys? I like having them both on the same key, it is much easier to hit K and flee than hit M.
the basic idea is that since it is a toggle, you want to be able to control multiple warp prisms
for instance, if you have two prisms in a control group and one is phase and one is transport, if both are bound to K and you press K, then they switch. However if you have K and M bound and press K, the phase one will stay phase and the transport one will switch.
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On September 04 2012 00:24 JaKaTaK wrote:
If you find the spacebar comfortable, then by all means go for it. But I don't see how its faster than pressing something like 7yhb.
@enanoretozon
I can't think of a reason why removing key caps would be "out of the question". Its going to make you a better player, sc players have been doing it since brood war, and TheCore does not function properly without it. The foundation of the core is using the thumb for the modifiers (ctrl, alt, shift) with the thumb to increase speed and the number of comfortable key combinations as well as Ctrl+click and Shift+click.
With regards to not having desk space, the only idea I can think of (aside from changing your gaming environment) is using the keyboard on your lap. This might actually prove to be more comfortable than any other setup, but I haven't experimented with it just yet so i'm not sure.
Hope that helps.
Well the tilting I could make work, the keypopping is the dealbreaker for me. Personally I don't like to depend on a setup to play that requires hardware modifications, as it basically dooms me if I don't have my stuff on me. Not to mention the fact that those keys are extremely useful outside of SC. For example WinKey+number switches between the programs in the Win7 taskbar. It's control groups for windows, beats alt-tab by a wide margin. It's a shame that particular detail is a hard requirement because as I said I really like the concepts and analysis behind TheCore.
I'd like to take this opportunity to make a constructive criticism: I've noticed that on the Chameleon and DarkGrid threads as well as this one you guys regard TheCore as The One True Way and can sound a bit dismissive about your previous work. While I think it's great you folks are excited about your latest creation, please remember that not everyone has the same needs, preferences, etc. and for certain conditions the old stuff can be superior to the new stuff.
What I'm trying to say is that while TheCore is great and fills a niche for people who want to go all the way and emulate the pros with a customized hardware setup, please don't stop supporting Chameleon and DarkGrid. You have users and some of them from what I've seen in the threads even prefer those layouts to TheCore. Please don't be George Lucas.
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On September 01 2012 11:56 FoxyMayhem wrote:
JaK ol buddy, remember production goes on the mouse for mouse enhanced because, when using the mouse buttons accuracy suffers for a fraction. Since marco's next action is on the keyboard, this loss of accuracy is acceptable, but can be a problem when microing in a battle.
That said, you don't HAVE to relearn it, the loss of accuracy is small. We're just optomizing for pro players.
JaK uses the keyboard only version, so he's not as familiar with it.
First of all, I would like to thank all of you that are invovled in developing these sets of hotkey setups. It is greatly appreciated and I am trying the TRMM at the moment (mid master player btw).
However, it somehow feels like having the production on the mouse is not the most optimal choice due to tapping issues. What I mean is that you often want to keep tabs at your macro, i.e. pressing the macro key ALOT (if one looks quickly at some of the pro replays, tapping is by far the most apm-heavy thing in SC2), but as mentioned in the quoted post, this affects accuracy somewhat. If it was only for producing, I would be fine, but as most of the apm goes to tapping, I feel like there must be a better choice for production, even in the TRMM setup (the tech on the mouse is a good choice though). A suggestion is to perhaps put a screen save there instead (for protoss it works really good in combination with a keyboard click for production building so that an instant warpin at a screen saved pylon can be done very easily) OR to have it as a harass hotkey (which of course doesn't change the current setup more than perhaps a relabeling and in the suggestion page).
Having said this, I am sure that you had good reasons for putting the macro there, so I am curious to hear the motivation for putting the production on the mouse.
Cheers and keep up the good work,
ProxyPanda
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On September 04 2012 15:38 enanoretozon wrote:
Well the tilting I could make work, the keypopping is the dealbreaker for me. Personally I don't like to depend on a setup to play that requires hardware modifications, as it basically dooms me if I don't have my stuff on me. Not to mention the fact that those keys are extremely useful outside of SC. For example WinKey+number switches between the programs in the Win7 taskbar. It's control groups for windows, beats alt-tab by a wide margin. It's a shame that particular detail is a hard requirement because as I said I really like the concepts and analysis behind TheCore.
Just a quick question -- why would you be using the right windows key for the WinKey+number switching between programs? Wouldn't you have your right hand on the mouse and your left hand be doing all the switching between programs using the left windows key?
It's my suspicion that you just don't want to damage your keyboard by popping out that sneaky windows key :p
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EPT
