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[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 30

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Actinium_
Profile Joined June 2012
17 Posts
June 30 2012 20:16 GMT
#581
Hi. What i dont understand is there are some hotkeys that are more uncomfortable than need be. Say hydra is on 7 but why not 9 or 0?
Phatency
Profile Joined May 2010
Finland38 Posts
June 30 2012 20:20 GMT
#582
On July 01 2012 05:16 Actinium_ wrote:
Hi. What i dont understand is there are some hotkeys that are more uncomfortable than need be. Say hydra is on 7 but why not 9 or 0?

Because 9 and 0 are control groups.
yevoc
Profile Joined September 2010
United States93 Posts
June 30 2012 22:30 GMT
#583
I've spent a few days to transition from Grid to the JIOP layout, and while I appreciate the hard work and agree with the overall direction of this project, my fingers are far, far less cramped and pained after a session when using a WASD-like "homerow" instead of JIOP.

I should probably add the disclaimer that for a male, my fingers and hands are relatively small, but my index finger is also substantially shorter than my middle finger. Homing those two fingers on the same key row becomes painful very quickly.

Instead of JIOP, I've found MKO; to be far more comfortable and efficient. By rebinding the 2 windows keys beside RCTRL (via Autohotkey), my thumb has far more near-instant keys to press. My pinky is now also only pressing M and N (as the build buttons), which alleviates the substantial pinky movement/stroke penalty that's well documented in keyboard studies.

By also obtaining a mini keyboard, my hands can be even closer together than with a numpad or even a tenkeyless keyboard. That might sound trivial, but it's made a world of difference in terms of comfort and speed.
"If they have some strange build going on, just go %$#ing kill them" - Day9
Tarqon
Profile Joined August 2011
Netherlands27 Posts
July 01 2012 00:20 GMT
#584
I've pretty much got the macro down now (using ZRM 0.2) but I'm confused as to what the optimal army keybinds would be. I've been using 9, 0 and - but if feels like something else might be better.
Silencioseu
Profile Joined June 2011
Cyprus493 Posts
July 01 2012 01:39 GMT
#585
where can i see the keyboard layout with the hotkeys on it? a picture or anything?
i kno i r badass no need to repeat
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
July 01 2012 01:54 GMT
#586
@silencioseu
There are pictures in the OP in a spoiler entitled "Visual Aides (pictures)" :D

@Tarqon
I would strongly suggest using P for hatcheries and something close for queens. [ 9 0 would all work pretty well, but I think [ is best (as your army should probably be on ; )

@yevoc
Can you link the evidence about "pinky movement/stroke penalty" I am currently convinced that the pinky is the 2nd most dexterous finger on the hand, based on drumming technique. I am very interested in these kinds of studies you are talking about.

0.3 is taking longer than expected (as usual) It will be released as soon as possible!
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
MrTwiggy
Profile Joined July 2010
50 Posts
July 01 2012 05:00 GMT
#587
I need some help. Whenever I have an SCV selected (Using TRM 0.2), on the command card it shows the key for Build Basic (stuff like depots/barracks, basically the key that will bring up this menu) as '#'. I've tried every single key and can't found out which one it is.

] does advanced structures
' does gather
But I can't find any key that does build basic??? Where is '#', because pressing Shift + 3 doesn't work either. It might be something with my keyboard, I'm using a Razer Blackwidow.
ellaguru
Profile Joined March 2012
United States35 Posts
July 01 2012 05:13 GMT
#588
basic build is supposed to be single quote '

dunno how yours got messed up like that. i would try to delete and redownload it just in case.
MrTwiggy
Profile Joined July 2010
50 Posts
July 01 2012 05:15 GMT
#589
It would appear that my ' key was swapped with the ~ key on all of keybinds. I manually went in and swapped whatever was showing as '#' (which worked from pressing ~) and moved them to '. Hopefully that will work, and I don't run into any snags.
dotDash
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden142 Posts
July 01 2012 10:46 GMT
#590
Regarding the removal of the load button

As a terran player I would like to add that the load button actually do have a use! Whenever you want to enter a damaged bunker you will repair it instead of entering it when right clicking on it with scvs. So if you doing some kind of bunker pressure and want to jump in and out from the bunker fast you need the load button.

I thought there might be some issues with medivacs aswell, but scvs prioritise entering them above repairing, and repair is bound nearby and easy to reach.

Sidenote: Been trying this layout for a long time now and would like to say its splendid! I havn't improved like shit ton since before I started with it, but I certainly right where I were before I tried it out. The thing I like with it is that there is no limit to my mechanics now. If I learn to use the keys I WILL have an advantage over my enemies who are stuck with less ctrl-grps and cam-locations. The only thing I changed so far is center view of selection and save cam locations to shift+ctrl and cam recalls to alt (pretty much switching them).

Cheers
Dan
Feel free to tune in to my stream! Highmaster T aiming for GM with commentary! http://video.gamecreds.com/1sy1sfohwo31n/channel/dotDash-T-going-for-GM
Quaterno
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom69 Posts
July 01 2012 11:18 GMT
#591
Just tested and it seems that right clicking still has the same effect, even with the bunker. You can click the bunker and right click SCVs and that will perform the load command without you needing to manually activate it
dotDash
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden142 Posts
July 01 2012 12:00 GMT
#592
@Quaterno, Silly me for not trying that one out lol. Figured it would rally the bunker exit to the scv. Thanks for info ^^

Cheers
Dan
Feel free to tune in to my stream! Highmaster T aiming for GM with commentary! http://video.gamecreds.com/1sy1sfohwo31n/channel/dotDash-T-going-for-GM
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-01 15:33:52
July 01 2012 15:32 GMT
#593
On July 01 2012 14:00 MrTwiggy wrote:
I need some help. Whenever I have an SCV selected (Using TRM 0.2), on the command card it shows the key for Build Basic (stuff like depots/barracks, basically the key that will bring up this menu) as '#'. I've tried every single key and can't found out which one it is.

] does advanced structures
' does gather
But I can't find any key that does build basic??? Where is '#', because pressing Shift + 3 doesn't work either. It might be something with my keyboard, I'm using a Razer Blackwidow.

Check data document to see what it is supposed to be.

That should solve this and all future problems.
yevoc
Profile Joined September 2010
United States93 Posts
July 01 2012 15:32 GMT
#594
@JaKaTaK
Sure. I'll reference the famous carPalx project, as it lays everything out the most succinctly.
http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?typing_effort

excerpt:
Characteristics of a successful model

If you explore keyboard layout projects, such as Capewell or Arensito, you'll find that each approach is different and uses a combination of heuristic and algorithmic contributions to determining the goodness of a layout. There are certain properties of a good layout, however, that are widely agreed upon

limited use of weak fingers, like pinky and ring finger
limited use of bottom row
increased use of home row
limited finger travel distance
limited same-finger typing (e.g. uhm)
balanced hand-use vs right-hand priority (see below)
alternating hand-use vs rolling (see below)
"If they have some strange build going on, just go %$#ing kill them" - Day9
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-01 15:59:08
July 01 2012 15:43 GMT
#595
On July 02 2012 00:32 yevoc wrote:
@JaKaTaK
Sure. I'll reference the famous carPalx project, as it lays everything out the most succinctly.
http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?typing_effort

excerpt:
Characteristics of a successful model

If you explore keyboard layout projects, such as Capewell or Arensito, you'll find that each approach is different and uses a combination of heuristic and algorithmic contributions to determining the goodness of a layout. There are certain properties of a good layout, however, that are widely agreed upon

limited use of weak fingers, like pinky and ring finger
limited use of bottom row
increased use of home row
limited finger travel distance
limited same-finger typing (e.g. uhm)
balanced hand-use vs right-hand priority (see below)
alternating hand-use vs rolling (see below)

The wording is essential. "Widely agreed upon" =/= always agreed upon.

Besides, you have to take a little sacrifice in order to get your thumb over the shift key. That is the main modification between standard and Core. To put less keys on the pinky and ring fingers means to reposition the hand completely, something that is out of the question. If the hand was relocated back to base ASDF, for instance, you have less keys overall on the pinky and middle finger, but you have the pinky on shift, the most used key. Put them in the middle of the keyboard (base FGHJ) and shift and control are incredibly out of the way.

It would be REALLY nice if someone found a way to swap shift and space so that base SDFG could be possible, though.
EDIT: Meh, on second thought control would be too far out.

List of keys on index and middle fingers (ZRM): o p [ ] ; ' l , . - 0 = (12 keys)
List of keys on pinky and ring fingers (ZRM): j i h n m k u 7 (8 keys)
There's already less keys on the pinky and ring fingers anyways... -.-
MrTwiggy
Profile Joined July 2010
50 Posts
July 01 2012 17:30 GMT
#596
One thing that I just don't see how this layout would work, is as terran. Anyone that has played terran knows how extremely important rally points are. I, as a terran player, am constantly changing my rally points of barracks/factories/starports depending on the stage of the game and fight.

I'm mid fight, I'll rally my rax(s) to my back end marauder, the startport to my medivacs, or to my vikings if I'm going against heavy air/collosus, and then I'll set my factories to my hellions if I'm going heavy hellion so I can do simultaneous harrass and stop creep spread. With a single key for all my production, it just is not possible. Any time I want to rally my barracks/factory/starport to something, I have to manually go all the way back to my production structures, click on the type of production structure (which could take a while if I'm on 3-4 bases) and then move back to my army/where I want to rally and click on them.

Subgroup control groups doesn't seem good, and looks like it would heavily impact the ability of a player to dynamically change their army allocation easily in terms of reinforcements. I'd be interested to see if any pro terran players use this subgroup control, though it is possible there are some.
dotDash
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden142 Posts
July 01 2012 17:48 GMT
#597
@MrTwiggy, I usually just rally to nearby ground. If you truely want to rally to specifc units I guess you could hit the ctrlgroup and then ctrl click on the raxes to select just the raxes, and then fix their rally point... or something like that.

Cheers
Dan
Feel free to tune in to my stream! Highmaster T aiming for GM with commentary! http://video.gamecreds.com/1sy1sfohwo31n/channel/dotDash-T-going-for-GM
Snusmumriken
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden1717 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-01 18:43:46
July 01 2012 18:37 GMT
#598
@MrTwiggy for me the advantages outweigh the disadvantages (probably, haven't had time to play much at all lately). I usually rally everything to nearby location of battle if I wanna play broodwar-style or I just rally to my natural as most do, at least from all the replays I've seen I've never to my knowledge actually seen pros doing what you suggest. I personally dont need separate rallypoints for my barracks and my factories etc., at least not to any extent that this layout would hinder. If I want to do that I can just tab along and do it, in a major battle I don't have time to set rallypoints to vikings and whatnot anyhow if I want to squeeze in macro as well. But maybe that's just me.

Also: what if your rallpoint-unit dies in battle? what if the viking you put rallypoint to dies, or the medivac, or the back-end marauder? Surely you don't have time to reset rallypoints all the time, that's why I never rally to an actual unit but to a location.
Amove for Aiur
VerdeCreed
Profile Joined October 2010
United States27 Posts
July 01 2012 21:39 GMT
#599
I love the work you have done on this! I am a Zerg player Using the ZRM layout. I have using it for about a week and still adjusting, here is my feedback:

Spamming - With all the research you guys have out into this I wanted to know if you had any data on how if pros spam create drones throughout the early game. To me it seems that by spamming the old "4sd" or the new "POJ" that you would be sure the make a drone the instant it is available without adding "reaction time" into the equation. However, in the current system you end up making tons of queens. If it is indeed advantageous to spam early, then perhaps J to build a queen could be moved. Of course, if pros don't spam those keys, or there is a better way then I'd love to learn it!

Control groups - I feel I will accidentally Hotkey an army or my queens to he hatch at least once during the game. Obviously this is just me learning the new controls, but would it be possible to change the way to add control groups just for hatches and maybe queens. Perhaps " alt + . " that way it is impossible to accidentally reassign hatches and it must be deliberate.

Thanks for the hard work and I cann't wait until .3!
MrTwiggy
Profile Joined July 2010
50 Posts
July 01 2012 22:21 GMT
#600
I need help. On the 'suggested control groups' options and such, I am trying to learn Zerg and am using 'ZRM 0.2'. For the suggested control group of Hatcheries, it says O...Except, O is not a control group key, it is an ability key?
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