EPT[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 259
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Guerraa
Mexico2 Posts
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
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Guerraa
Mexico2 Posts
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtFSjIb2ibJTdFQ4LVlIcllUUWtGUVY4cWxyLXd6QUE#gid=35 | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
It is nice because you have a ton of control, queen mishaps are absolutely minimal, and accuracy of the boxing generally doesn't matter because of the queens priority. Misclicks happen. Its nice to minimize the damage from losing a queen, to absolutely nothing happens when you misclick. | ||
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astazha
United States29 Posts
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
In the video? yes @december That method is extremely slow in comparison to the other methods, it does provide a bit more control, but no more control than individual queens (which is faster). | ||
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Slashiepie
107 Posts
On July 24 2013 23:42 JaKaTaK wrote: This part is really interesting to me. The question becomes, do you gain more by being able to see everything quickly and having closer army keys, or do you gain more in the time that it takes to check how many times to tab. This is also really interesting to me, before i used the core i used to have all of 3 on separate CGs, i have not tried it that way with the core ever, but i actually think it might be faster to let the brain associate a maximum of 2 actions to get a certain unit. However and this is a big however, by placing them all on one key the production cycles become more stable and it is way easier not to miss a building, you will always have all your buildings producing, by only checking one CG! Pros of Separate CGS: - Quick setup of separate eally points for Proxy Factories/Starports etc. - Useful for base trade scenarios or production facilities separated by the enemies army. - Ability to place the corresponding upgrades in the corresponding CG. Eg: Rax Techlabs with the Raxes, Factory Tech Labs with the Factories, etc. - Individual lift offs in proxy / base trade scenarios. - It takes less keys to produce 1 certain unit. Example: I want a Raven. Separate Hotkeys: CG -> Raven vs 1) CG -> next subgroup -> next subgroup -> Raven. 2) CG -> previous subgroup -> Raven. Cons: - 3 different CGS need to be used for one production cycle. - 3 less cgs for your army. So whats more beneficial in the long run ? Insta make the unit you want ? vs insta check up on all your productions every cycle? How much time do you save or lose ? And how important is to save that 0.5-1 second producing that unit vs instantly checking out on your raxes production before getting that Raven? SC2 being such a macro oriented game, benefits more from the Core Logic i believe, but please post your ideas. | ||
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
I kind of equate the question to... Which hurts more: Taking a bit more APM to build a unit or failing to build a unit? | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
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Beedebdoo
130 Posts
@Smackzilla Hmm, why is 1 hotkey better for you? @JaK Even if you're queuing up the Raven, it is still time sensitive, since there are other things in the game you need to pay attention to. And how do you know when to queue up the Raven with only 2 macro CGs? Won't I have to click on the Starport to know that? | ||
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quonzoran
Germany31 Posts
First of all thanks a lot for the great and persistent work, you guys put in "TheCore" - much appreciated and really helpful. After a little break I had not playing SC2, it was a great moment to start again with a new keyboard-layout. And I do not find it that hard to learn. For better readability, I will make two posts, this one with smaller suggestions and questions, and a second one with an idea how to rearrange camera hotkeys for zerg for larva injection and creep spread. Some suggestions / wishes / ideas: German version of the spreadsheet: Did it on my own now, but would be nice to have a version with the keys of a German keyboard (and other keyboard layouts you support) Short version of spreadsheet: Would find a short printable version of 1-2 pages helpful, that way you can lay it next to the keyboard while learning. Difference between small/normal/large: How do I decide which version to take? Thought, medium porbably cannot be wrong, but I only want to learn it once. Nice to have a short help for decision making on the starting page. Why did you put "Attack object" on a "little finger-key" ("j" for right-hand medium)? Microing in battle involves reissuing the attack-command a lot, and as I think, the little finger is not the one most comfortable / with least reaction times. Hesitated to change it so far, though, as it would mean rearranging the "Unit ability 1" and "Unit Ability 2" keys, and they are bound to many other commands and I did not want to mess it up. What is the reasoning behind this? My suggestion would be (for right-hand medium): Attack object: "O" (former "Unit ability 1") Unit ability 1: "I" (former "Unit ability 2") Unit ability 2: "J" (former "Attack object") What do you think of this? Again, thanks for all the work and effort, you put into this! | ||
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quonzoran
Germany31 Posts
The whole thing is set up so that the two changes work together, if you implement only one, there might be conflicts with Hotkeys already used. But this probably can be solved if one only wants to use one idea. Let's start with larva injects. I like to use the centered base cams (usually referred to as "Backspace method") for injects for two reasons: I just find it quicker than to go through the different Base cams and I frequently use Macro Hatches and do not want to spend one of the camera views on that one, as it would mess up my nice ordering (one camera view for each "real" mining base"). I have all my queens on the Layered CG - I did rebind the "Add to CG" order to "CTRL + I", (and "Create CG" to CTRL+SHIFT + I"). Funny - in the spreadsheet it says those key combinations, but in the newest version I downloaded (German), it is bound to "CTRL+SHIFT + J" and "ALT + J"). Adding queens is important to me, I like to build several ones early when you set up a lot (new hatches, new CG), and "ALT" is harder to hit, misctyped several times, missing some larva injects in the early game which is pretty bad if you lose time to drone up or need fast early Zerglings. But back to the main point: When rebinding the "Base Cam" (the one, that cycles through your bases, in the original setup on Backspace" to "SHIFT + [" my larva inject routine is: HOLD SHIFT + "P" + "O" + "[" + CLICK CENTER + "[" + CLICK CENTER ... etc. Nice and close together. ("SHIFT + P" selects Queens, "SHIFT + O" - inject larva, "SHIFT + [" next base, Click to inject etc.) One nice thing to add: You could integrate camera view 6 into this cycle. (Camera views 7 and 8 are the "free cams I like for creep", this means you change camera 6 from "centered" to "free view" - I usually do not need 6 base cams"). "Create camera view 6" would be "SHIFT + -" and "Go to camera 6" would be "SHIFT + =". If you are microing somewhere on the map or in the battle, simply add "SHIFT + -" at the beginning of the inject routine above and end it with "SHIFT + =". You hold SHIFT all the time anyway, and it saves the camera position before jumping through the bases and brings you right back to the action after injecting. Second area: Spreading creep tumors: Experimented with using Control groups for creep tumors to quickly jump to them, but found it not working good. You add a lot of "old tumors" to it, and after spreading you need to wait until the new tumors pop up - do not waste that time. So the suggestion with the creep cams (Views 7 and 8) is great. But I find them easier on other key combinations. Similar idea - bind them to combinations that involve "SHIFT", because usually I try to have at least two tumors for a creep path I am trying to create, therefore issuing "SHIFT - Commands". Free Camera 1: Recall - "SHIFT + O", Set Camera "SHIFT + I" (previously "CTRL + H" and "CTRL + I" Usage: HOLD SHIFT + "O" + double click creep tumors + "U" (spread) + clicking on all the spots, where creep should expand + move screen to new creep view + "I" (set new view) combination "O+U+I" is very easy, move your hand one key to the left from starting position. Free Camera 2: Recall - "SHIFT + J", Set Camera "SHIFT + H" (previously "CTRL + O" and "CTRL + J" Same as above, "J" is little finger, then move hand one to the left, "U" and then little finger again "H" What to do with the "Ramp Camera"? (Some use the free Cams for that). I would use Camera 5 for this, usually need ramp cam at the beginning, and if you get to five bases you can decide, what is more important for you base cam 5 or a ramp cam - or by that time you maybe do not need creep cams anymore. | ||
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astazha
United States29 Posts
Quonzoran: we cannot use shift and J, or any other unit command hotkeys because it would remove the ability to queue that command. I agree that the backspace inject is faster but I prefer the base cam version for it's greater control. I often have hatcheries that do not have queens at them, and the inject cycle also provides me with information about my bases as I cycle through them, like "there are 4 drones in that gas geyser at my 3rd and I need to fix that when I finish this inject cycle." With backspace I find that I know what is going in but not where. I also use them for building at specific locations or checking up on non-hotkeys buildings. I do like the idea of having perhaps a 3rd free cam and only 5 base cans, but I'd need to think about what keys to use. For macro hatches, I just click twice at those bases. It takes slight longer than always clicking center-screen, but that seems like the best trade-off to me. | ||
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Beedebdoo
130 Posts
Great posts, I agree with astazha, in that 3 free cams is an interesting idea. When you reach 6 bases as Zerg, Larvae injects stops being that important, having an extra free cam could prove much more useful for battle/creep spread/ect. I have all my queens on the Layered CG - I did rebind the "Add to CG" order to "CTRL + I", (and "Create CG" to CTRL+SHIFT + I"). Funny - in the spreadsheet it says those key combinations, but in the newest version I downloaded (German), it is bound to "CTRL+SHIFT + J" and "ALT + J"). Adding queens is important to me, I like to build several ones early when you set up a lot (new hatches, new CG), and "ALT" is harder to hit, misctyped several times, missing some larva injects in the early game which is pretty bad if you lose time to drone up or need fast early Zerglings. This confuses me, I think you're swapping around how the Hatchery and Queen CG work. This is how they look on ZRM nordic for me, and with good reason, which I'll explain:Hatchery CG: + Show Spoiler + Recall: P Add: Alt + J Create: Ctrl + Shift + J We add with Alt + J because you, for actual bases, will hold down Alt to create a base cam anyway. If you have more macro hatches than bases, something is wrong with your injects. With that said, using a non-Alt alternative combination for macro hatches could be pretty good. Queen CG: + Show Spoiler + Recall: Shift + P Add: Ctrl + P Create: Ctrl + Shift + P The Queen CG looks like an ordinary CG, except for the fact that it is recalled with Shift + P, which frees up P for another CG (the hactery), which frees up O for more abilities (PRM/RRM/TRM uses O as a CG). | ||
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quonzoran
Germany31 Posts
Still think, that for some people or just some situations, the "Backspace base cam" (cycling bases by spamming one key) has its uses, so nontheless, I would place it on a key a little easier to reach than "F9" (German newest version). You are right about "SHIFT + J" being not so good a key for a cam. Wonder, how creeping with free cam works for others, who use this method. Holding CTRL to select a cam, then SHIFT + U to spread, then CTRL again to reset cam - I think, this can be improved, or is it just a matter of training? What is the idea behind using exactly those keys for recalling and setting the free cams? The first free cam makes sense for me - "H" for recall, "U" for spread and "I" to reset cam - nice sequence (small-ring-middle finger). But the second free cam? Recall - "O", then "U", reset "J" - for spreading creep tumors, you need to move the hand one key to the left in order to hit "U", whick speak against "J" as reset button imo. Also, would be nice, for both creeping sequences to have the same order of fingers. Am I missing something? Still like the idea of executing the whole creep spread sequence (including free cam 1 or 2) while having your thumb on shift and not having to go CTRL - SHIFT - CTRL. Maybe there is a way to use other keys for recalling and setting the free cams, that do not conflict with other commands? Another thing, I wonder - you put "Burrow" and "Unburrow" on different keys ("H" and "/") - that are quite far away. In the original layout, as far as I remember, it is the same key. And for "root" and "uproot" of spines and spores, which may be comparable, you use the same key. Think, it would make more sense, to have unburrow at the same key - there are some tactics with rapidly burrowing and unburrowing, which would be easier with same key. I put "H" as alternative hotkey, leaving "/" also in there, so if I have a selection of some burrowed and some unborrowed units, pressing "/" I can be sure, that they unburrow. Concerning the difference I found regarding the "Add to Layerd CG" command (for ZRM, spreadsheet says "ALT + I", the German layout version I downloaded has "ALT + J" in it) - as I am still memorizing, what is the "correct" or "better" combination? Thanks again for all the help!  Quonzoran | ||
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Beedebdoo
130 Posts
We can use Ctrl + Right Click as an alternative bind to add to Army CG, then the rally cam adding sequence would be: + Show Spoiler + 1. Hold Ctrl 2. Press J or I 3. Alternate between left and right click for adding things to the Army CG 4. Release Ctrl Alternating between Left and Right Click should require less effort than between [;] (if that's your Army CG) and Left Click. This could probably also be used for rally based Protoss units. @quonzoran Having the option to use the Back-space method on Zerg layouts would definitely be an improvement, I'm in for it. Holding CTRL to select a cam, then SHIFT + U to spread, then CTRL again to reset cam - I think, this can be improved, or is it just a matter of training? You don't need to press Shift, just hold down U, then you can keep holding down Ctrl for the entire Creep spread sequence.Recall - "O", then "U", reset "J" - for spreading creep tumors, you need to move the hand one key to the left in order to hit "U", whick speak against "J" as reset button imo. Also, would be nice, for both creeping sequences to have the same order of fingers. Am I missing something? Ending with J requires a bit of dexterity. You will need to hold U with the ring finger, and while you're spamming creep everywhere, you want to place your pinky on J while still holding U to prepare for setting the camera in a new position. Making it the same sequence for for both cameras is something I agree with would be kind of nice, but we need to reach a reset point, where we land on your home row in the end.Another thing, I wonder - you put "Burrow" and "Unburrow" on different keys ("H" and "/") - that are quite far away. Borrow and Unborrow are one different keys to allow for Roach borrow micro. Basically, you hold down the Borrow or Unborrow button and click on individual Roaches to Borrow/Unborrow them. This is faster because it only takes one action (click the Roach) as opposed to two (clicking the Roach, then issuing a Borrow/Unborrow command). If they're on the same key and we hold that key down, the Roaches will frantically Borrow and Unborrow.Concerning the difference I found regarding the "Add to Layerd CG" command (for ZRM, spreadsheet says "ALT + I", the German layout version I downloaded has "ALT + J" in it) - as I am still memorizing, what is the "correct" or "better" combination? The spreadsheet is currently unreliable, you'll have to study TheCore in-game.Edit: On July 22 2013 23:27 embi04 wrote: Agreed, sorry for the late response.@Beedebdoo - really appreciate your response. Very detailed and helpful. Many thanks. Really great video explanations. Worth to be put into the FAQ or any new "more info" section, don't you think? I will try PRM again and maybe train this loose hand as you mentioned. I think I'm stressing mine too much Thanks again. @Jak embi04 is right, TheCore really needs another section for all the tips and tricks you might not pick up on, like the Roach Borrow trick. It's quite a common question. Alternatively, the resource section could be expanded. Also, can why there are no mouse versions of TheCore, and how Alt + Ctrl is just Alt Gr get added to the FAQ? The Roach micro thingy could also be added to the FAQ, perhaps structure it by in-game and out of game questions? | ||
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quonzoran
Germany31 Posts
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Beedebdoo
130 Posts
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
TheCore Tricks Document If you have something to share, just PM me your email and I'll add you to the share list! :D | ||
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