EPT[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 258
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Beedebdoo
130 Posts
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
OHHHHHH.... Thanks for that  The order was an attempt to make things more intuitive based on the suggested CGs (not the order, but the use)Macro CGs before units to start melee is first units (first into battle) Followed by ranged (2nd into battle) then primary spellcaster then harass and other special groups (not really in any particular order) I understand this doesn't work so well for terrans though. Perhaps there is a better order? | ||
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sil0r
Germany43 Posts
The way some people do it: (a) When you tap through click on the wireframe to select a single Rax and check it's progress. But i think it is pretty inefficient since you have to do a precise click and it requires all RaX's to have the same progress. So my first idea was to (b) Use the unused free camera over my production, almost like a chronoboost cam. The downside of this is obviously, that you have to move your screen away from the action. So when I saw a game of Supernova it hit me, he had 3 designated Hotkeys for Rax's , Fax and Starport but in the early game he did a push and put individual Rax's on either hotkey to keep up clutch production. The conclusion of this was, that you need these clutch production timings only in the early game, where every mineral counts. (c) Since you don't need every hotkey for units anyways [in the early phase] you could use them for your production-buildings and rebind them later. My first guess is, that you should be fine with 3 keys for Production and 2 for CC's. But which keys to use? I want to keep P for my first CC and O for my first Rax. The other keys should be easy to reach for fast tapping. What do you think my fellow Terrans? Edit: I think I'll try it with: CC1 P CC2 [ Prod1 O Prod2 ; Prod3 L | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
When you have 2 CGs you can check up on everything much faster than when you have 4. Especially when they are both home keys (non-homekeys are 3-5x slower). It is impossible to see the progress bars for every unit producing structure. Sure it works out when you have 1 of each, but as soon as you have 2 barrack, CCs, or w/e you have lost any advantage you gained from using 4 macro CGs. (which doesn't take long). Having 2 gives you the greatest advantage for a much larger portion of the game. | ||
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Beedebdoo
130 Posts
@CG ordering It's a question of what we're optimizing our order for. As I see it, specific placement of CGs can lead to two results: A gameplay advantage and/or a more leveled learning curve. CG placement for gameplay advantage Placement of CGs determine their placement as tabs while ingame. There are some placements that are more easily glanced over than others. So why would we want to look at the tabs? They show the number of units and structures currently in the control group and the icon of the first unit in the subgroup, from when the CG was initially created. Personally, I use these two informations exlusively for error checking, and rarely that. Therefore I can't see an gameplay advantage. It might be less distracting when the CGs are tightly packed from start to finish, this is really the main thing I see. I'd be more than happy to hear others thoughts on this. I'm going to try some games with invisible CGs to better understand when I'm using them. CG placement to ease learning As said, the questoin is what we're optimizing for. There are many aspects about CGs on TheCore where we can decrease the learning curve with proper ordering. For example 'what keys are CGs?', 'What goes on what CG?', and 'What CGs are most likely first occupied?'. Suggestions Sorting by keyscore Though at glance not natural to many players, this makes reading the spreadsheet easier, especially for non-american players, since you either need an american keybord reference or memorize the american keybord to read the spreadsheet. It will also for most of the time place your most often pressed and occupied CGs to the left, since the CGs are designed so that things you're recalling often have better keys. Sorting by key placement on keybord This way we can optimize learning for where the CGs are, though this is easily learned by looking at the visualizer. Conviniently, the CGs form a triangle on large and medium non-Zerg layouts It also allows you to get a quick look at what key's you aren't using, making it helpful for learning to use all 10 binds. Sorting like cameras Slashiepie made a suggestion on this subject a while back: + Show Spoiler + On July 18 2013 20:54 Slashiepie wrote: Suggestion for polishing the Core even more. Make the Control Group Numbers match the Cam Numbers too. Tbh i recognize this is simply nitpicking from my part since most people wont be even thinking in numbers after using it for long.(maybe). Here is an example of what i mean: Create Control Group 5 and its CTR+L but Create Camera 5 is Alt + Ctrl + 0. This could perhaps also serve as motivation to organize all Groups into a chronological system on the keyboard. Since they are kind of randomly scattered (well they are scattered by ease of use, but one will not really think in those terms when searching for them). Again: all of this is definitively not game breaking and barely relevant, but i feel it helps raise intuitiveness and make the Core even easier to learn ^^. Besides, if everything can be perfectly/systematically organized. Why not? The suggestion is to match the first 6 camera keys, which basically is the keyscore list with 9 and 0 swapped around to avoid finger repetition for Zerg. It doesn't solve the last 4, but I think it will make going from learning CGs to cameras and the other way around easier. Sorting by first occupird/first to battle/ect I think sorting by what goes first to battle or what CGs are the first to be occupied is a good idea, but it's very hard to get consistent, especially when you have to create balance between the races, therefore a system like that won't ever be perfect, but it might work well anyway. My opinion Personally I'm rooting for a system that doesn't easily change, and from those I'm picking sorting by keyscore. The suggested CGs are where they are for a reason, and learning them has from my experiences been the hardest thing about learning TheCore. @CG use for production facilities I can see it being pretty good early game, when no ghosts, second harass, nor stim is in use. Going to try it out I can see it being pretty good when using all 3 production facilities, because you don't have to backwards/double foward tab to reach the Starport. | ||
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Beedebdoo
130 Posts
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
Thanks, responding to other comments in a sec! EDIT: @Beedebdoo fuck yes! love the analysis I definitely think that having the 2 macro CGs for 1 and 2 makes the most sense. For the remaining 8 it becomes a bit tricky. I think it would be interesting for PTR to do it in the order that it would be easiest to press all 10 in a row (no finger repetition). That way if someone wanted to do 5 macro CGs, they would be in order for the best tap, etc etc. I'm going to go mess with this and see what the result would be. (to make things easier for non-US users, we should make it so the document and the order match) | ||
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embi04
Poland3 Posts
I use PRS since a very short time. I just realized that most problems with the Cameras I have from the uncomfortable Alt-key combination. I think that it might be possible (and easier for me) to exchange Alt-key with Ctrl-Shift-key combination for creation of CGs and Cameras (make it just like the free Camera setup) (Center view might be spacebar?) ... then to have a consistent solution for all the cameras I would change the free camera recall to shift-key. One problem that might occur here is the queuing of commands that are on FCs' keys, is it? I might have bad habit with that but I rarely "create" CG by Shift-Ctrl-key. I usually use just Ctrl-key to "add" units hence creating new CG if nothing was in that CG before. And I explicitly create CG only if I want to correct any mistake and "reset" CG. Please tell me if I miss something or did I just wrecked somehow theCore idea? Or maybe I am the only person here not liking the Alt-key? Sorry if that question was already asked or if I make too much confusion for readers | ||
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astazha
United States29 Posts
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Beedebdoo
130 Posts
@embi04 astazha is right, the Alt key can indeed be problematic, especially on the smaller layouts. Yet, I don't see why it should be that much of a problem. Terran and Protoss practically don't have to touch the button beyond the starting seconds of the game where you set up all of your cameras. If you're unfamiliar with the game start sequence of TheCore, I suggest you watch this video: + Show Spoiler + I know it's quite long stretched, so I'll give you a text version here too: + Show Spoiler + 1. Select your Nexus 2. Hold down Alt (centers on the Nexus). 3. Press: [ (creates your main's camera). 4. Either click on the Minimap or drag scroll to your natural, keep holding Alt 5. Press P (creates your natural's camera). 6. Repeat step 4 and 5 for the rest of your bases. 7. Release Alt, you don't have to press it for the rest of the game. Recalling free cameras with shift would mean you couldn't queue Attack Move or main abilities, like Psi Storm, Force Field, or Graviton Beam. As to why Ctrl + Shift + Key for "Create CG" is important, I'll let these two videos explain: + Show Spoiler + You might ask what seperating Banelings from Zerglings has to do with Protoss. Well, Archons work in the excact same way. Hope this helps Also, remember to play with a loose hand, this will make pressing Alt and many other keys much easier. Oh, and yes, just adding to CGs is generally what you're going to do for the main duration of a game.@JaK I hope it doesn't bother you that I played around with CG ordering myself a bit. 1. Listed by keyscore + Show Spoiler + P 0.5 I O 0.5 M ; 2.0 I L 3.0 M 9 3.0 M 0 4.0 M - 5.0 I [ 6.0 I = 14.0 I . 18.0 M 4 key repetitions occur, while going through them from top to bottom. 2. Eliminating finger repetition. + Show Spoiler + P 0.5 I O 0.5 M ; 2.0 I L 3.0 M - 5.0 I ↑ 9 3.0 M ↓ [ 6.0 I ↑ 0 4.0 M ↓ = 14.0 I . 18.0 M By putting [-] between [L] and [9]; and [[] between [9] and [0] the finger repetitoin is eliminated while retaining as much of the keyscore list as possible. Key proximity is still a problem here, as some sequencing key are far away, most noteably [=] to [.]. 3. Reducing key proximity for the first 8 keys. + Show Spoiler + P 0.5 I O 0.5 M ; 2.0 I L 3.0 M [ 6.0 I ↑ 0 4.0 M - 5.0 I 9 3.0 M ↓ = 14.0 I . 18.0 M Swapped [9] and [[] from 1. [L] → [[] is easier than [L] → [-](which happends in 2.) Some might also find [0] → [-] easier than [9] → [[]. Personally I also found it more fluid, because it creates a corehent motion to the left for those from key 5 to 7. Last row is still awful. [.] is only really accesible from [[] and [;]. Both of which forces a brigde between [L] and on of the uppper row keys. 4. Making the last two keys reasonable. + Show Spoiler + P 0.5 I O 0.5 M ; 2.0 I L 3.0 M - 5.0 I ↑ 9 3.0 M ↓ = 14.0 I ↑ 0 4.0 M ↓ [ 6.0 I ↓ . 18.0 M It's relatively easy to go through the whole list. But the 8 first aren't as good as on 3. And we're back to the problems 2 had with [L] and the upper row being connected. Could perhaps swap [-] → [9] and [=] → [0] for a more fluid motion to the left. | ||
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embi04
Poland3 Posts
@Beedebdoo - really appreciate your response. Very detailed and helpful. Many thanks. Really great video explanations. Worth to be put into the FAQ or any new "more info" section, don't you think? I will try PRM again and maybe train this loose hand as you mentioned. I think I'm stressing mine too much Thanks again. | ||
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
On July 21 2013 05:16 JaKaTaK wrote: Concerning Stutter Step, as we're doing it now, one of them (up to the player to customize) will be at the [8] hotkey. Which is pretty damn close. Yeah, that seems reasonable. 8 should probably stay "stop". The advantage of stop over halt is that your medivacs are still free to glide and keep up better with your bio. | ||
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On July 22 2013 02:58 JaKaTaK wrote: TheCore was designed around "The Tap". When you have 2 CGs you can check up on everything much faster than when you have 4. Especially when they are both home keys (non-homekeys are 3-5x slower). It is impossible to see the progress bars for every unit producing structure. Sure it works out when you have 1 of each, but as soon as you have 2 barrack, CCs, or w/e you have lost any advantage you gained from using 4 macro CGs. (which doesn't take long). Having 2 gives you the greatest advantage for a much larger portion of the game. When playing Terran, I am also considering switching to having rax, fact, starport on different hotkeys, especially in the early game. For some strategies being able to set differently rally points is really nice (e.g. reactor hellion, usually the factory will have a different rally point than the rax or starport), and for some early game strategies like 1/1/1, it's really helpful to be able to see the 3 separate progress bars on the 3 different keys. | ||
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
Where are you getting your keyscores from? I'm looking at "TheCore Archive" on google docs, sheet "Key Scores", column O. If I'm reading things right, for example, 9, L, and 0 are scored 1, 1, 3. You have them scored as 3, 3, 4. Why the difference? | ||
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Beedebdoo
130 Posts
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Slashiepie
107 Posts
I have 11 programmable buttons and i can't make up my mind as to whether to use it for abilities or for CGS. By the way did Blizzard disable mouse-wheel usage ? I tried binding it to previous/next group and i haven't been able to, i remember using it at some point - but my mind could be playing tricks on me -. Nvm: Seems the G700 does not have the option to bind wheel up/down, just wheel left/right. | ||
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Smackzilla
United States539 Posts
On July 24 2013 02:53 Slashiepie wrote: Any ideas as to what good things i could do with my new G700 ? I have 11 programmable buttons and i can't make up my mind as to whether to use it for abilities or for CGS. By the way did Blizzard disable mouse-wheel usage ? I tried binding it to previous/next group and i haven't been able to, i remember using it at some point - but my mind could be playing tricks on me -. Nvm: Seems the G700 does not have the option to bind wheel up/down, just wheel left/right. Just a wild idea, but I'd be curious if "Build basic/advanced" would feel good on the mouse. I feel like build basic is most likely to cause errors for me since its pulling my index off of the home row. It would be a pretty radical change, though. Another one I'd consider might be recalling the rally cam with a mouse button. | ||
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fengshaun
149 Posts
On July 23 2013 00:43 JDub wrote: When playing Terran, I am also considering switching to having rax, fact, starport on different hotkeys, especially in the early game. For some strategies being able to set differently rally points is really nice (e.g. reactor hellion, usually the factory will have a different rally point than the rax or starport), and for some early game strategies like 1/1/1, it's really helpful to be able to see the 3 separate progress bars on the 3 different keys. I have already switched to separate rax/fac/starport for both terran and protoss like so: P -> CC/Nexus O -> rax/gateways ; -> fac/robo L -> startport/stargate the problem for me with everything on O was that I had to think about how many times I should click "next subgroup" before I get to starport. So, if my factory died (scouting), I still clicked "next subgroup" twice, but instead of making a medivac, I would make a marauder! This way, I don't have to think about clicking next subgroup an appropriate number of times, and it's convenient. | ||
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Slashiepie
107 Posts
On July 24 2013 05:39 Smackzilla wrote: Just a wild idea, but I'd be curious if "Build basic/advanced" would feel good on the mouse. I feel like build basic is most likely to cause errors for me since its pulling my index off of the home row. It would be a pretty radical change, though. Another one I'd consider might be recalling the rally cam with a mouse button. So a couple thoughts: Freeing basic and maybe advanced is actually a good idea, since it would make room for at least one accessible cg . I don't feel like doing it right away because i know my brain will be messed up for quite some time before i get used to it, and im already beating masters on ladder, but i will get to it.Stationary cameras feel really good on the Mouse, but i feel the current system is somewhat faster. As for Free-Cams, i think you might have hit the jackpot there, im thinking about one key for setting each Cam, one Key for recalling each. As for abilities, i kinda experimented with Kerrigan's stuff in the Campaign and i'm loving it, the only downside is that it slightly messes up with my pinpointing accuracy since everytime i press a side button, the mouse moves sideways a little because of the pressure applied. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
On July 24 2013 13:13 fengshaun wrote: the problem for me with everything on O was that I had to think about how many times I should click "next subgroup" before I get to starport. So, if my factory died (scouting), I still clicked "next subgroup" twice, but instead of making a medivac, I would make a marauder! This way, I don't have to think about clicking next subgroup an appropriate number of times, and it's convenient. This part is really interesting to me. The question becomes, do you gain more by being able to see everything quickly and having closer army keys, or do you gain more in the time that it takes to check how many times to tab. EDIT: The issue with getting rid of basic and build advanced, is that those keys aren't just build basic and advanced, they are necessary in many cases to eliminate finger repetition and make spell casters easy. | ||
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