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On July 18 2013 14:48 Reckie wrote:
I've gotten a USB keyboard, but now I'm having trouble with the download. Could someone explain how to download this on a mac?
Are you d/ling from skydrive or github? On Skydrive I would think it just just let you download the hotkey file, on github it's a bit different, I find the easiest way is to get the raw text and copy that into a document, then save it as an .SC2Hotkeys file type and put it in your hotkey folder.
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Thanks for getting back to me Jakatak,
The last problem I had with Overlord micro would be the same with shuttles and prisms.
Here's the lowdown on the micro trick. You can click a unit or group of them and right click on the dropship/prism/overlord to load, this is what most people usually do I would assume. If you were to try and load/unload in rapid succession, this would require you to select the overlord, hit O, click on the screen, click on the unit dropped, move the mouse back to the overlord, right click on the overlord and repeat by moving the mouse again to somewhere on the map to drop.
HOWEVER, you can eliminate multiple key presses and any movement of the mouse and make drop/pickup quicker by keeping the mouse over the same location and then pressing unload and clicking on a single spot, then clicking load and clicking on the same exact spot (where the unit just unloaded). This comes down to four quick button presses (two keys and two mouse clicks) while your unit comes out, immediately attacks, and then gets loaded back in. The alternative is Two precision mouse movements, one key press, and three mouse clicks per load and unload. The mouse movement method also leads to misclicks, while the keypress method is likely to stay in place.
This is a micro trick to exploit the delay in projectiles. If a photon cannon, spine crawler, banshee, or any unit with a projectile animation (roach as well) spits out their attack, the overlord/shuttle/prism can do a quick load and the ground unit that was targeted will avoid all damage.
This can be really useful for zergs to harass with a single Ultralisk against multiple spine crawlers. It is rather micro intensive, so I tend to only use this technique when I am low on units in a base-race situation or recently wiped army battle or to play mind games with the opponent, but it would be much easier to do the trick if the two keys were side by side or even the same key! Currently I have to take my hand completely off the home keys and set my middle finger to O and index to , to cycle and pick up the unit. (This also works in theory against widow mines, but those usually detonate on the overlord.) However, if I am doing this against ground only attacking units, I could also easily go back to reinforcing units and building drones quickly during breaks in loading/unloand, but if I keep the current set up, I have to reposition my hand completely each time I want to switch. Finally, the small delay in moving the mouse directly over the overload to load is often too long and makes me take the damage I was trying to avoid.
As it relates to my issue with loading using the [,] in general, I find this key really problematic simply because it requires my ring finger to go down two rows of keys. If you hold your hands out and attempt to keep your pinky, middle and index finger straight out while curling your ring finger down you'll see what I mean. That movement of bringing your ring finger below your pinky is just physically difficult to perform without moving your pinky along with it. Even re-assigning the [,] comma key for load to say K, 8, 9, O, or most especially I, would be ideal to help this trick work.
By the way, I noticed that you don't incorporate a secondary (alternative) left click button into the layout, is this because of the worry that it would not be tournament legal?
I don't know how it would work in the core, but in the Grid I was able to use "Z" as an alternative to left click, which made it so that the first ability of all spellcasters could be cast by hitting Z while pointing on the map, this also worked with creep spread and building Spine Crawlers. That one alternative keybind helped make it exponentially quicker to spread multiple creeps and build a quick line of Spine Crawlers by holding down Z and moving the mouse in a line. I think this is roughly the same as when you simply hold down O to create multiple drones, its one key for technically multiple of the same commands, but only by utilizing the quick repeat of a keyboard. I think it would be useful to incorporate this to at least one command per race, possibly just creep spread for tumors.
Just a thought.
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Thanks for the detailed post :D
The micro trick for load/unload is definitely interesting. Your example seems pretty impractical though (ultralisk drop micro vs spines??) I do understand that since this trick is a possibility, we should try and make it a possibility with TheCore. Can anyone think of other more frequent scenarios where this is the optimal method?
the [,] key (and all keys actually) should be pressed with a loose hand. No reason to spend extra energy trying to only move one of your fingers, if your pinky moves when your ring moves, let it go. This kind of thing should only be a hindrance when the two fingers have to be used quickly in combination. (it does apply to the micro trick described above).
Rapid Fire is available through the UI, which is the main constraint for TheCore. (we got out of text file editing because it was patched out). It does seem like something a tournament might ban however. Does anyone have any official rulings on this function? Have tournaments/blizzard noticed or acknowledged it yet? I do think we should incorporate it into TheCore if tournaments or blizzard sanction it.
EDIT:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341878¤tpage=211#4218
Got sucked into the unit test map after rereading this post. Makes me want to vote to implement Rapid Fire in TheCore very badly. So let's reconsider the Pros and Cons:
Pros:
An insane number of things for all races become more powerful.
Cons:
Tournaments/Blizzard may at some point down the line decide to disable this.
Worst Case Scenario:
We implement rapid fire and soon after it becomes "illegal".
We go back to the non-rapid fire version.
People get upset and call for 2 versions, one for rapid fire, one without.
Because its as easy as enabling or disabling one key it is super easy to turn on or off, so we suggest that.
End of Story.
Am I missing anything? Because I just destroyed a mineral line in seconds with rapid fire graviton beams.
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The trick also works with Terran dropship + Tank or Thor, as well as Prism + Immortal, of course this trick could also be used with Hydras, Marines, Stalkers, etc., but using a Tank, Thor, Immortal, or Ultra is the highest DPS unit to do this with since this is literally a one attacking unit micro trick. The benefit is that against ground only attackers you can widdle away a few static defenses or units while taking zero damage, useful if you ever have spare micro time and few units, low resources, or rush early to one big attack unit.
By the way, the practice map for creating buildings was great! I feel like the creep or die map should be more useful but I'm having problems even with the multi-tasking there at the moment. Is there any good practice map to just focus on control groups or just cameras? I've never used Camera locations before except one I re-formated to F3 for creep spread, and camera usage is the slowest aspect of The Core for me to incorporate.
Also the CGs aren't yet flowing as instantly for me, I've finally got my ling CG placement down, but switching between those and say my creep spread queens or my third attacking units (after Roach/Hydra) is a point that I'm not progressing on yet. I think it's because I don't always get there in games. The Alt + camera I understand for later centering your camera, and since it's next to the Alt + J to add, its not too difficult to add a base later, but early game I just don't switch past two bases (since I don't have them) which makes it less natural to transition to this rapid cycling once the mid-late game get going.
I once tried camera incorporation on Standard by pre-setting all bases which was a bit easier when I choose all the camera locations before anything else was done (I would do this between 7-9 drone building) but the Alt + key makes it impossible to preset these before a base is up (or at least a scouting drone). I'm thinking of setting an alternate of 1-6 for base cams just to get myself into the habit of creating and cycling through the cams early on until I've got the muscle memory built in to cycle through them on instinct. For now I tend to switch to base cam mid game as this seems to work exactly the same for me as Camera cycling.
Finally, do you know of any practice maps that just work on your Build Order? It would be great to be able to enter one in and find out how many seconds/minerals you improve each game. Something kind of like the trainer that reminds you when to get an overlord, etc. I've been delayed on my Build Order since switching to the core, which is to be expected, but being able to practice just that over and over while slowly adding in a camera or control group would help out a lot.
Again, thanks for all the work you do here for the community.
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On July 19 2013 08:42 Doomstar1 wrote:
I once tried camera incorporation on Standard by pre-setting all bases which was a bit easier when I choose all the camera locations before anything else was done (I would do this between 7-9 drone building) but the Alt + key makes it impossible to preset these before a base is up (or at least a scouting drone).
This is possible with TheCore! At the beginning of a game
- double tap your main building hotkey
- shift-click on the main building so you have nothing selected
- go to any location via clicking on the minimap and by using middle mouse button scroll to fine adjust
- alt+hotkey it
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On July 19 2013 09:45 Cyberdyne wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2013 08:42 Doomstar1 wrote:
I once tried camera incorporation on Standard by pre-setting all bases which was a bit easier when I choose all the camera locations before anything else was done (I would do this between 7-9 drone building) but the Alt + key makes it impossible to preset these before a base is up (or at least a scouting drone).
This is possible with TheCore! At the beginning of a game - double tap your main building hotkey - shift-click on the main building so you have nothing selected - go to any location via clicking on the minimap and by using middle mouse button scroll to fine adjust - alt+hotkey it
Select your hatch.
Press and hold alt for the rest of this sequence. The camera will center once only.
Tap the key for adding a hatch to the hatchery control group.
Tap the key for base camera 1.
(You can start moving the mouse before this step)
Click your natural location on the minimap and tap the key for base can 2
"" 3rd "" base cam 3, etc.
I can build a drone, move the overlord and add it to a control group, add my hatch to it's control group and set all 3 of my initial base cams before the next 50 minerals are ready for the 2nd drone.
When you build an expansion, doing the alt-control group, camera will center the camera perfectly, so your initial just needs to be close.
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As said above, you can continue holding alt after your initial base camera setting, then just move the camera via scrolling or mini-map and set your next locations. I always set bases 1-3 at the start of the game, and practice cycling through them while I wait (still haven't fully incorporated camera use as much as I'd like though, it can be hard to build that habit).
I test build orders just by using a custom game vs easiest ai on a ladder map. I've been debating making versions of all the ladder maps with a 'quick restart' feature for easier repetitive testing of build orders. Maybe something like that exists already.
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On July 19 2013 11:51 teuthida wrote:
As said above, you can continue holding alt after your initial base camera setting, then just move the camera via scrolling or mini-map and set your next locations. I always set bases 1-3 at the start of the game, and practice cycling through them while I wait (still haven't fully incorporated camera use as much as I'd like though, it can be hard to build that habit).
I test build orders just by using a custom game vs easiest ai on a ladder map. I've been debating making versions of all the ladder maps with a 'quick restart' feature for easier repetitive testing of build orders. Maybe something like that exists already.
Yeah, here's your best bet: HotS Build Order Tester
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Wow 71 grandmasters... heh.
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Okay, I have an idea that I need some more brains on, first some background:
Every unit has a priority list for their abilities and spells.
For example I will be using RRM (which is the same as TRM and PRM) and is probably the most popular layout.
J - Attack
I - Spell 1
/ - Spell 2
K - Hold Position
H - Spell 3
8 -Stop
M - Spell 4
U - Patrol
Some units have 6 spells, but because they are so rare and not time sensitive I'm not including them in this list.
To include rapid fire in the most efficient way possible, what we can do it make one of these spells the "rapid fire spell". This way we don't have to have an entire key dedicated to rapid fire (which I think is inefficient).
Initially this priority list was made by the frequencies of commands given, and was then modified a bit so that the spells were spread out among different fingers to make for better combinations.
There are 2 ideas I'm currently playing around with:
OPTION 1
J - Attack
I - Spell 1
/ - Spell 2
K - Spell 3
H - Spell 4
8 -Hold Position
M - Stop
U - Patrol
and
OPTION 2
J - Attack
I - Spell 1
/ - Spell 2
K - Spell 3
H - Hold Position
8 -Stop
M - Spell 4
U - Patrol
What this does is allows us to have better keys for spells on casters that don't utilize rapid fire. For example, the oracle has 4 spells, but none of them would benefit from rapid fire, so w/e key we give rapid fire to (for the sake of example we can use H - Ability 3) that would mean the oracle would have to use both ['] and [/] which means to avoid finger repetition we'd have to always put the oracle on a CG with the middle finger, as well as having to find an ability on it that is never used in repetition and never shift queued. Which is possible, (I think) but a pain in the ass, and may crop up in other situations. It also means a lot of shitty keys being used for time sensitive spells. Which we want to avoid if we can.
If we lower priority for Hold and Stop, we can alleviate the issue of shitty keys a bit for spells. BUT AT WHAT COST??!?!?! Basically Hold and Stop become lower priority than the spells.
Right now I'm in favor of 4 spells in a row (OPTION 1) What do you all think?
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Quick 2 cents as a Terran, I really like having either hold position or stop prioritized for stutter stepping. I'm really bad at a-move (j-move  ) stutter stepping. Perhaps I could get used to the change though.
If I'm reading this correct, would the rapid fire key overlap with one of the spell keys (e.g. I would be spell 1 and 'select left click target')?
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For some reason i cant bind or use any hotkeys using the right ctrl + shift and a middle row letter.
I can go ctrl shift q/w/e etc. not a problem. When i try with j/k/l/; its impossible, unless i decide to use the left ctrl and shift (im right handed so i cant do this).
This is extremely painful when trying to make CG 1 as zerg, for the letter "P". Interestingly enough though, ctrl + j works, so does shift+j but not when im trying to create a new control group.
This is very frustrating as i cant rebind or re-use any middle row hotkeys, and these are also the most used too...
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@teuthida
Yea, I think that's the biggest detriment. I don't think it would be pushed out too bad though. Actually we could keep it the same and put hold position lower than stop to prevent this. What is the importance of hold position? Its not as good for stutter step. It can be used when chasing with mutas. Anything else?
EDIT: or is attack move best and we just keep it that way. It would be pretty easy for players to customize, just swap hold and stop. EZPZ
@Krome
I would test out another keyboard. Also make sure you downloaded the correct layout (UK QWERTY probably)
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On July 20 2013 05:04 JaKaTaK wrote:
@teuthida
Yea, I think that's the biggest detriment. I don't think it would be pushed out too bad though. Actually we could keep it the same and put hold position lower than stop to prevent this. What is the importance of hold position? Its not as good for stutter step. It can be used when chasing with mutas. Anything else?
Hold position lets your army fire at workers vs buildings in harass situations by default I believe. I also use it in positional play in TvT keeping my units in my tank range and out of enemy tank range (no auto-attacking into enemy tank lines ).
From what I've heard attack-move stutter is the best, but it is also harder to learn and has more potential for mistakes when you aren't good at it, but take that as you will. Obviously we are about optimization and not catering to what is easiest  .
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On July 20 2013 05:04 JaKaTaK wrote:
What is the importance of hold position? Its not as good for stutter step. It can be used when chasing with mutas. Anything else?
A few things I can think of:
1) When playing against siege tanks (especially TvT), hold position is extremely important in making sure your units don't all run into siege fire if one of the units on the edge gets hit.
2) Making sure queens don't chase phoenixes in early-mid game ZvP. Need to hold position them after injecting.
3) Making a wall with units (2 queens at ramp, zealot in building wall gap, walling a ramp with your units against DTs in PvP)
4) Hiding or escaping with DTs in the corner of an opponent's base and making sure they don't run into detection.
Edit: And as teuthida mentioned, the most important one may be negating worker hold position micro (e.g. scv's surrounding a bunker on hold position when you have lings or zealots, probes surrounding a cannon on hold position when you have lings, etc.)
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I agree, also, I talked to a masters terran who said he uses stop for retreating stutter step, however, if you are retreating, using stop to stutter step will make the units move in the opposite direction you want them to go for small bits while stutter stepping. So the superior stutter step even when retreating would be hold position over stop.
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Sorry if this has already been brought up, but have you considered creep tumours for the rapid fire key as well? this could really help out with quickly being able to spread multiple creep tumours
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Click on the link in the post above you. The orange are the abilities we're considering for rapid fire.
The biggest issue I'm dealing with currently is weather to rapid fire Seeker Missile or Auto-Turret.
Also, Do we change the gateway so that zealots or stalkers can be made by just holding down a button? Rapid fire warp works with all units, but its especially effective for the unit that has the same key as rapid fire (no need to press shift).
But you can see the improvement by looking back and forth between the 2 Sheet 38s
EDIT: Just made the first file (for personal testing) and a demo which will be up on youtube shortly. We hardly have to move Hold position at all (it actually is where hold position used to be back in 0.5 or something like that). Going over to TheCore Archive is your best bet for seeing the improvements (look at the Spreadsheets titled "Sheet 38 blah blah"
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EPT
