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On July 26 2013 04:21 Beedebdoo wrote:
@Smackzilla
Hmm, why is 1 hotkey better for you?
1 CG for rax/fact/port is better for me than 3 CGs ultimately because I make more stuff.
1) If I check or build at one building type, I'm automatically presented with all building types. In the past with 3 CG, I've been bad about production "tunnel vision". I'll be thinking "I need to make marines and marauders", but I'll forget to check my factories or starports. 1 CG basically eliminates that weakness in my play.
2) With 1 CG, I can check production more quickly and at less cost. This ultimately leads to me checking production more often and having less idle time.
Now, I do agree that 3 CG is better at exactly monitoring production bar progress than 1 CG (e.g. for early timings). However, I've switched to using the free-cam for that rather than using CGs at all. With a free-cam and a couple of actions, I can see rax, fact, port, stim and shield tech labs, and ebay progress bars (depending on base layout). 3 CGs isnt getting you that. I've seen pros do this too (I can't remember who, but I want to say it was kas, bratok, or happy).
I also agree that there are cases where 3 CG is more accurate and eliminates some mistakes that you can get with the 1 CG tabbed production. However, the reverse is true too, and I think that the ways that 1 CG is less error prone and faster have more significant impacts on whether you win or lose.
Last, I think both ways can work. I've seen pros use tabbed production (e.g. Thorzain last night) and I've seen pros who go 3 CG. Ultimately, I'm just expressing what I think works for me and how my brain is wired at the moment. 
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At first i kinda disliked the 1 CG approach, but after getting used to it for a while, i have to say i consider it superior to the 3 CG one.
As especially against P, I already use up alot of my CGs for the army, so it probably would be hard to have that many CGs, you can access comfortably. And on the other hand i have to agree with Smackzilla. It makes it very intuitive and fast to check your current production. The only downside is that it is slightly slower and more error prone, if you want to build factory or starport units. But if you play bio u almost always want to build some bio units aswell, which takes away the speed advantage you get from 3 CGs.
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Wonder, how creeping with free cam works for others, who use this method. Holding CTRL to select a cam, then SHIFT + U to spread, then CTRL again to reset cam - I think, this can be improved, or is it just a matter of training? What is the idea behind using exactly those keys for recalling and setting the free cams? The first free cam makes sense for me - "H" for recall, "U" for spread and "I" to reset cam - nice sequence (small-ring-middle finger). But the second free cam? Recall - "O", then "U", reset "J" - for spreading creep tumors, you need to move the hand one key to the left in order to hit "U", whick speak against "J" as reset button imo. Also, would be nice, for both creeping sequences to have the same order of fingers. Am I missing something?
Still like the idea of executing the whole creep spread sequence (including free cam 1 or 2) while having your thumb on shift and not having to go CTRL - SHIFT - CTRL. Maybe there is a way to use other keys for recalling and setting the free cams, that do not conflict with other commands?
I have altered my core significantly to deal with these issues. I can't detail it all from a mobile post, but I will lay it out later. If you want to find it faster, if you sift through relatively recent (the last 10?) pages you'll probably find my descriptions of it as it evolved.
I've also set up a separate key for spine/spore uproot and place.
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On July 27 2013 01:47 Shiadra wrote:
At first i kinda disliked the 1 CG approach, but after getting used to it for a while, i have to say i consider it superior to the 3 CG one.
As especially against P, I already use up alot of my CGs for the army, so it probably would be hard to have that many CGs, you can access comfortably. And on the other hand i have to agree with Smackzilla. It makes it very intuitive and fast to check your current production. The only downside is that it is slightly slower and more error prone, if you want to build factory or starport units. But if you play bio u almost always want to build some bio units aswell, which takes away the speed advantage you get from 3 CGs.
to solve this issue always use previous subgroup for starport and next subgroup for factory. This means you'd keep more upgrade structures elsewhere, but I think its worth it to have more consistent production.
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On July 27 2013 02:07 JaKaTaK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 01:47 Shiadra wrote:
At first i kinda disliked the 1 CG approach, but after getting used to it for a while, i have to say i consider it superior to the 3 CG one.
As especially against P, I already use up alot of my CGs for the army, so it probably would be hard to have that many CGs, you can access comfortably. And on the other hand i have to agree with Smackzilla. It makes it very intuitive and fast to check your current production. The only downside is that it is slightly slower and more error prone, if you want to build factory or starport units. But if you play bio u almost always want to build some bio units aswell, which takes away the speed advantage you get from 3 CGs. to solve this issue always use previous subgroup for starport and next subgroup for factory. This means you'd keep more upgrade structures elsewhere, but I think its worth it to have more consistent production.
I think the most annoying thing for me is if I'm going mech, I either have to a) tab every time i want to build anything or b) remove the barracks from my production CG. Neither one is a very nice solution.
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Okay fully caught up on reading all the longer posts, sorry for the delayed responses:
@Quonzoran
You made an excellent printable reference sheet for TheStaircase, care to take a crack at one for TheCore?
It should only have on it things you'd have to look up in the hotkeys menu, so nothing in the command card:
Suggested CGs
Bindings for CGs
Bindings for Cameras
Small Medium and Large are the same in relation to the home row, every key is moved either one to the left or one to the right (does that make sense). I suggest to learn medium then if it feels too small or big, move to large or small.
Attack is on the pinky finger (little finger) because the pinky has the highest potential for dexterity and independent movement. It is difficult for most people to get used to because they often have untrained pinky fingers. It will take a bit, but when you have trained your pinky you will be a much stronger/faster player.
TheCore is based on the Layered Camera Inject Method, and not the backspace method. Because of this I don't think your change will work for the stock version. However, it is good to make adaptations to fit your personal inject choice.
@Beedebdoo
Alternating between the keyboard hand and mouse hand is generally faster than alternating between two fingers on the same hand. (this is why piano players use both hands on a single key if it must be repeated very quickly, and 2 fingers if it must be repeated moderately fast. Because of this I don't think binding Ctrl+Right Click to an alternate for add to Army CG with improve speed.
I am working on a "TheCore Tricks" video series as writing these things down to explain them are much more difficult and communicate less clearly than showing them. I'm super swamped right now with my work for Yegwen so its been hard to get to working on TheCore or TheStaircase 
The no mouse versions is a question that only comes from previous users of TheCore, so I don't think that will be a frequenly asked question for very much longer (if it is at all anymore). However I'm adding the Alt Gr question, as that comes up a lot and will likely continue to come up. Thanks 
@JDub
I didn't think of that one before. That sucks quite a bit. But if you're going mech, do you need your barrack on a CG still? Do you have any extra you can put it on?
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On July 27 2013 03:50 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2013 02:07 JaKaTaK wrote:On July 27 2013 01:47 Shiadra wrote:
At first i kinda disliked the 1 CG approach, but after getting used to it for a while, i have to say i consider it superior to the 3 CG one.
As especially against P, I already use up alot of my CGs for the army, so it probably would be hard to have that many CGs, you can access comfortably. And on the other hand i have to agree with Smackzilla. It makes it very intuitive and fast to check your current production. The only downside is that it is slightly slower and more error prone, if you want to build factory or starport units. But if you play bio u almost always want to build some bio units aswell, which takes away the speed advantage you get from 3 CGs. to solve this issue always use previous subgroup for starport and next subgroup for factory. This means you'd keep more upgrade structures elsewhere, but I think its worth it to have more consistent production. I think the most annoying thing for me is if I'm going mech, I either have to a) tab every time i want to build anything or b) remove the barracks from my production CG. Neither one is a very nice solution.
What do you see as the biggest drawback(s) to removing the rax?
I've been trying the ForGG style of mech in TvT, and I typically remove the rax after the initial two prong attack with marine-medivac and hellions. I honestly haven't missed having the rax in there *yet*. I have considered sticking it on one of the less used CGs to jump to it quickly while scouting.
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On July 27 2013 03:53 JaKaTaK wrote:
@JDub
I didn't think of that one before. That sucks quite a bit. But if you're going mech, do you need your barrack on a CG still? Do you have any extra you can put it on?
Later in the game I don't really need it, no. But in the early game, I'll still be making marines out of 1 barracks. When I do decide to take the barracks out of the CG, now I've made the macro cycle different, which can lead to mistakes (tabbing when I don't intend to, etc.). Back when I played on Standard, I had 5-rax, 6-fact, 7-starport, so no matter the composition the macro cycle keys were always the same. This is one of a few reasons why (if I ever play Terran again) I'll probably switch back to using 3 separate CGs for production.
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On July 26 2013 17:06 Beedebdoo wrote:This confuses me, I think you're swapping around how the Hatchery and Queen CG work. This is how they look on ZRM nordic for me, and with good reason, which I'll explain: Hatchery CG: + Show Spoiler +Recall: P
Add: Alt + J
Create: Ctrl + Shift + J We add with Alt + J because you, for actual bases, will hold down Alt to create a base cam anyway. If you have more macro hatches than bases, something is wrong with your injects. With that said, using a non-Alt alternative combination for macro hatches could be pretty good. Queen CG: + Show Spoiler +Recall: Shift + P
Add: Ctrl + P
Create: Ctrl + Shift + P The Queen CG looks like an ordinary CG, except for the fact that it is recalled with Shift + P, which frees up P for another CG (the hactery), which frees up O for more abilities (PRM/RRM/TRM uses O as a CG).
Thanks for your clarification, first I got confused but now I understand, where a mistake happened:
I got confused, because the spreadsheet and the actual hotkeys did not match. So I tried to fix it - and thought, hm, probably for Hatch CG, you use a CTRL-Command like for the other "normal" CGs (and using the same letter "P" for all three commands). As the Layered CG (Queen CG) uses different combinations, I had ALT + J for adding a queen - which then feels akward, because it centers the screen and is difficult to hit.
Using an ALT-Command for the Hatch, when you at the same time set a base cam (what I do, too), makes perfect sense.
@JaKaTaK: Maybe it would be good to make it obvious, that the spreadsheet may not be up to date right where you download it to prevent a confusion like this.
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Re: Creeping method with free cams:
On July 26 2013 19:17 Beedebdoo wrote:
You don't need to press Shift, just hold down U, then you can keep holding down Ctrl for the entire Creep spread sequence.
[...]
Ending with J requires a bit of dexterity. You will need to hold U with the ring finger, and while you're spamming creep everywhere, you want to place your pinky on J while still holding U to prepare for setting the camera in a new position. Making it the same sequence for for both cameras is something I agree with would be kind of nice, but we need to reach a reset point, where we land on your home row in the end.
Alright ... just, that I get it (I am referencing to the first free cam, but the letters do not matter here):
- Holding CTRL, then "H" (recall creep cam), then "U" (for spreading creep), then "I" (reset cam) - that works? Does CTRL + U give the "Spread creep" command - do I not have to release CTRL for that?
And I begin to understand the method of "spamming a command", meaning not to first select units and then issuing the command, but holding a command key and then selecting the units.
Can someone tell me, how this exactly works, if I have several creep tumors? I hold "U" for sure, but then ... ? Click tumor, click new spot, click tumor, click new spot ... or is there a way to box the tumors and then mass-click on the spots, where they shall spread?
Re: Method of holding down command key while individually clicking units
Borrow and Unborrow are one different keys to allow for Roach borrow micro. Basically, you hold down the Borrow or Unborrow button and click on individual Roaches to Borrow/Unborrow them. This is faster because it only takes one action (click the Roach) as opposed to two (clicking the Roach, then issuing a Borrow/Unborrow command). If they're on the same key and we hold that key down, the Roaches will frantically Borrow and Unborrow.
As I said, great finding for me, did not know of the "reverse" method of issuing commands, spamming the command key and THEN clicking the units. Think, it can be useful in quite some circumstances. Any idea, where I can find a good summary, where to use this?
I can think of:
- burrow / unburrow roaches individually in order to save them, when they are close to dying
- detonating banelings, when there are a lot burrowed (being spread out) OR when they are chasing units and closely just do not reach them
- can it also be used for unloading transports while moving? (First, issue move command, hold "Unload-button", double click the Medivac(s) / Overlord-carrier(s) ?)
- ... what about uprooting / rooting spores and spines? Isn't this a similar situation as the roaches - so maybe use different keys for rooting/uprooting here, too? (In intense battle, quickly uproot individual spines/spores, and move them somewhere else)? But maybe boxing and queing commands is more suitable here ...
EDIT: While reading older posts of this thread, found out, that this has already been answered (applications of rapid fire):
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341878¤tpage=211#4218
Thanks for the help!
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On July 27 2013 01:52 astazha wrote:
I have altered my core significantly to deal with these issues. I can't detail it all from a mobile post, but I will lay it out later. If you want to find it faster, if you sift through relatively recent (the last 10?) pages you'll probably find my descriptions of it as it evolved.
I've also set up a separate key for spine/spore uproot and place.
Great, thanks, looking forward to reading it and also try to find it in earlier posts!
EDIT: Love your method to creep while holding CTRL down and using CTRL-right click to move the screen to new cam location. Definetively will give it a shot!
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On July 27 2013 03:53 JaKaTaK wrote:
Okay fully caught up on reading all the longer posts, sorry for the delayed responses:
No prob, we are all doing this for free, I think, and most of us have many things to do ...
@Quonzoran
You made an excellent printable reference sheet for TheStaircase, care to take a crack at one for TheCore?
I can give it a shot. Thanks for explainig, why you favor the pinky finger ... guess mine needs training ...
TheCore is based on the Layered Camera Inject Method, and not the backspace method. Because of this I don't think your change will work for the stock version. However, it is good to make adaptations to fit your personal inject choice.
I agree, that using layered cam for inject should be main method. Nontheless - and others agreed - it might be a good idea, to put the "cycle bases" key to a better spot than "F9", because for some or in some situations, it might be useful. I think, the key on the left of backspace togehter with SHIFT might be a good idea (for right-hand version). Or is there a reason to make it "especially hard" to hit "cycle bases"?
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On July 26 2013 23:40 JaKaTaK wrote:I agree that there should be a list of all of the tricks etc. TheCore Tricks DocumentIf you have something to share, just PM me your email and I'll add you to the share list! :D
Good idea. Could write sth. about how to directly add larva to a CG when you issued the build/morph command ... so the newly build zergs/roaches/mutas whatever are in the CG they belong and move, where you want them to be.
Does it fit into the tricks, or is it a no-brainer?
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@quonzoran
I know you are new to posting on TL, so I'll give you the heads up before you get warned by a mod. Double posting is seen as rude, 5 posts in a row is definitely not cool, people do things like that to gather up massive numbers of posts on their profile for recognition (silly, I know). If you find you have something to say after your first post, you can just edit that post. I did the same exact thing you are doing now when I started posting here, no worries
EDIT:
The Document is getting a huge overhaul. I'm in the middle of fixing up a new one with a better format that is synced up with the document I work from (TheCore Archive). Unfortunately its time consuming as fuck so its taking a while. 
I don't think moving the base camera closer is a good idea, because it sacrifices a spot used by something useful to everyone, for something that only some people use. I think this should remain a customization thing.
Egg Hotkeying is definitely made easier with TheCore. I think it qualifies as a trick Nothing in Sc2 is a no-brainer
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@JaKaTak: Allright, thanx for the info ... I replied to several posts by hitting "Quote" ... and actually thought, this makes it more readable - one post for each topic. But different forums have different cultures ...
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@Quon
That is exactly what I did! I thought, oh this is perfect, everything is separated by subject automatically.
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@JaKaTak:
Re: Improving the structure of this thread
Nice to know I am not the only one thinking this way (different posts for different subjects) ...
I feel it can be hard at times, with such a rich thread as TheCore, to follow the discussion on a specific topic. Sub-threads would be an idea, but I think, there exists no "tree-structure" in this forum, right?
Another way would be to try to add a subject line for each (larger) topic, that is discussed, just as I did in this post. Can be copied easily by hitting "quote" on the last post to that topic. What do you think?
Re: Changelog/versions
I see, it is difficult to rename the versions - but I feel, it would be nice to have an easy way to check, if I am still having the latest version, even when I do not read the thread regularly. If I customized the layout, I do not want to "just download it" regularly, too.
One easy way to deal with this - Why not add "Last updated: (date)" right at the download section at the very beginning? So I can compare with my download, if there is a new version. And if you have a video or a changelog, that can be added there, too (not embed, just the link). Would be only one line.
EDIT: Re: TheCore tricks
Added a trick for hotkey larva eggs. If you want, you can check it out:
TheCore Tricks Document
Happy about feedback - did I miss somehting, is it helpful or needs rewriting?
Re: Printable one-page overview
@JaKaTak: Allright, I will wait until you did a new version of the spreadsheet, before making an overview. It came also to my mind, that the overview should also automatically (using internal spreadsheet links), so you need to update the key-changes only at one place.
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@Smackzilla Great to hear, thank you
I've considered using a system that combines the two. Basically, I'd like to bind every facility to O, but give Factories and Starports their own respective CGs. O can check everything, and I can more precisely check with Factory and Starport CG, and build units through them.
It's not faster than the current system, it also requires an extra button press for every added Factory and Starport.
But it allows for surgical checking in the early-midgame, and consistent unit production, as well as better rally control. Thoughts?
@Quonzoran
Alright ... just, that I get it (I am referencing to the first free cam, but the letters do not matter here):
- Holding CTRL, then "H" (recall creep cam), then "U" (for spreading creep), then "I" (reset cam) - that works? Does CTRL + U give the "Spread creep" command - do I not have to release CTRL for that? No Ctrl releasing required. Spreading Creep is done with U, but since nothing is bound to Ctrl + U, it will just be read as U.
Can someone tell me, how this exactly works, if I have several creep tumors? I hold "U" for sure, but then ... ? Click tumor, click new spot, click tumor, click new spot ... or is there a way to box the tumors and then mass-click on the spots, where they shall spread? I'll go over the Creep spread sequence, it will hopefully answer this question and others you might have concerning Creep spread.
+ Show Spoiler [ZRM Creep spread sequence] +1. Hold down Ctrl 2. Move your home-row on key to the left and press H. - Recalls Camera 7. 3. Hold U and click on a Creep Tumor (doesn't matter what comes first.) - Clicking on a Tumor while holding down Ctrl causes you to select all Creep tumors. Holding U causes your keyboard to rapidly repeat pressing U, meaning you're constantly issuing a Spawn Creep Tumor command. 4. Click on the ground where you want to place new Creep Tumors. When you're done, release U. - When you click on a valid point on the ground you complete the Spawn Creep Tumor command. Since you're holding down U you will rapidly re-enter targeting mode where you may place another Creep Tumor (assuming you still have idle and mature Creep Tumors). 5. Move your camera to a desirable location where you can easily spawn new Creep Tumors from your recently spawned ones. You can click on the Minimap, move your cursor to the edge of the screen, or use Drag Scroll. I'd argue that Drag Scroll is superior in this situation. + Show Spoiler [Reasoning] +Drag Scroll easily the most precise way of moving and the fastest for short distances, since you don't have to first move your cursor to the edge of the screen, or close to, with the Minimap's case, and speed is calculated by the speed at which your cursor moves while holding down Drag Scroll, meaning you can move very slowly to fine tune your camera location. Press I. - Recreates Camera 7 in the new location. 7. Press O. - Recalls Camera 8. 8. Once again follow step 3 to 5. 9. Press J. - Recreates Camera 8 in the new location. 10. Release Ctrl.
I hope this helps ^^
@JaK
On July 26 2013 04:21 Beedebdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 04:12 JaKaTaK wrote:
If you are constantly checking your production, queuing up the raven is not time sensitive as there is likely a unit before it. However, knowing you need to queue it up and avoiding idle production time is required for you to do this, which is what the 2 macro CG option provides How do you know when to queue up the Raven with only 2 macro CGs? Won't I have to click on the Starport to know that? This confuses me, how am I to check the progress bar, or in some other fashion know when the ship before the Raven is about to finish. I'm probably misunderstanding something here, please let me know if I am
On July 27 2013 03:53 JaKaTaK wrote:I am working on a "TheCore Tricks" video series as writing these things down to explain them are much more difficult and communicate less clearly than showing them. I'm super swamped right now with my work for Yegwen so its been hard to get to working on TheCore or TheStaircase If there's something you think I can help with, please let me know And I doubt I'm alone, when I say that I'd be happy to put in the effort to see 0.8 and future patches being released sooner, and in higher quality.
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Well, I've been following this project for quite some time, but I couldn't get around the "left hand: right side" rule, so I made my own layout based on modified DarkGrid and Chameleon, with layered cameras below CG (shift for recall, alt using thumb for set), TheCore modifiers for CG (alt, shift, ctrl) and rapid-fire for certain abilites (ctrl+s for mules, creep, infested marines, snipe, graviton beam and some more). Homerow = Shift A W F Space (yea, fps habits.
What do you guys think? Maybe TheCoreLite?
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On July 27 2013 23:33 Czarnodziej wrote:Well, I've been following this project for quite some time, but I couldn't get around the "right hand: left side" rule, so I made my own layout based on modified DarkGrid and Chameleon, with layered cameras below CG (shift for recall, alt using thumb for set), TheCore modifiers for CG (alt, shift, ctrl) and rapid-fire for certain abilites (ctrl+s for mules, creep, infested marines, snipe, graviton beam and some more). Homerow = Shift A W F Space (yea, fps habits . What do you guys think? Maybe TheCoreLite?
I've seen this issue come up a couple times, so perhaps your version may be useful to like minded individuals . May I ask, what was it that made it difficult to use the left side of the keyboard? The only weirdness I have now using it is when chatting, but in 1v1s that is mostly just to glhf and gg and when I play with friends I use a headset.
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EPT
