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On April 28 2013 18:02 graNite wrote:i have shift+cg to "add to groups" and alt+cg to "reassign" which is really easy for me to press 
While those specific combinations might be easier to press, using a setup like that adds complexity to other parts of the game that you may not realize.
There are many subtle synergies you are missing here:
- Using CTRL+CG for add has many advantages over shift. Here are a few:
1) For zerg, egg-hotkeying is done around every 15 seconds or so, and you're already pressing CTRL for that action. If you had to toggle CTRl and SHIFT each time that happened, that's one extra key-press every 15 seconds. In addition, for free cameras, which are set and recalled with CTRL, your thumb is already there. So you can create units, add them to a cg, and move to a free camera, and reset the free camera all without moving your thumb at all. You just can't do that with your method.
2) For all races, CTRL clicking units is very handy to select all of one type. If you wanted to select all marines, for example, and add them to a group, you would just hold CTRL, click a marine, and press CG key. If you use shift, you'd have one extra keypress, which is a sequential repeated key press with your slowest finger (which is bad!)
3) Shift is the most commonly used key in SC2. Having it under your thumb enables your other 4 fingers to do work for you. In other layouts, your thumb is basically wasted because it has access to only the spacebar. Since cameras and CGs are the center of TheCore, being able to access them quickly is paramount. Having shift+key to recall 6 cameras is extremely useful, in addition to having the flexibility to use the minimap. We could argue which is faster, but I will posture that pressing a key with your index finger and thumb is faster than a "scroll to minimap, click, scroll back to main window". Remember you can adjust the positions of your cameras however you like. No one said it has to be centered on your base. The advantage of centering on your base lies in Zerg injects, for example.
4) There are half a dozen more advantages contained within the thread. I'm sure you could find them with some searching.
- reassigning a CG with ALT+CG requires you to move your thumb a few inches away from it's home location, where as reassigning with ctrl+shift does not. There are again some synergies here with other actions that you should consider:
1) Often you will end up with units in a CG that you don't want to be there. Removing them is easier with CTRL+SHIFT than it is with ALT. To remove tanks from your MMM group: hold CTRL+SHIFT, click a tank wireframe, press CG. If you wanted to do this action with alt, again it's one more keypress with your thumb that isn't very fast, and also a repeated stroke (two actions on different keys with the same finger in sequence). Much much slower. For terran, you may have a big MMM ball and want to separate a few for a drop. Same thing applies here. CG control is simply more efficient using CTRL and CTRL+SHIFT. If it wasn't, Jak wouldn't have designed it that way. Jak even made a video highlighting how easy and efficient this method really is once you actually figure out the exact finger mechanics.
2) if you use ALT+CG, then you lose layered cameras, which are very useful. Sure, you can play SC2 and do quite well without cameras, but that's sort of like saying you can run a marathon without shoes. It's certainly possible, and perhaps people have been doing it that way for a long time, but that doesn't means it's the most efficient or the "right" thing to do.
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I really like some of the new changes, but I can only hope next installments aren't as drastically changed as .6 to .7 to reduce the amount of proactive interference. When switching from grid style to core, it was like a blank slate. I knew nothing and nothing got in my way of learning. When learning the keys, after an introductory period, I was slow, but not wrong. Nowadays when fiddling with ctrl and shift and ctrl-shift, I'm fighting with my own habits. I'm not bitching about it, I'm just saying I'd rather be learning from scratch right now :D Any other long time core users experiencing this?
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Since the liftoff key has been moved, how do guys feel about using / to make tech labs? It's not being used in buildings and it's easier to hit / with your thumb, it's the same key that abilities use, and it's easier than moving your pinky down a key to hit M. I'm also experimenting with using that key as "build engineering bay". This makes laying down an ebay, especially in a situation where you just spotted a spire or dark shrine, as simple as pressing ["] [/]
edit: wrong layout
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On April 29 2013 03:19 Snoodles wrote:I really like some of the new changes, but I can only hope next installments aren't as drastically changed as .6 to .7 to reduce the amount of proactive interference. When switching from grid style to core, it was like a blank slate. I knew nothing and nothing got in my way of learning. When learning the keys, after an introductory period, I was slow, but not wrong. Nowadays when fiddling with ctrl and shift and ctrl-shift, I'm fighting with my own habits. I'm not bitching about it, I'm just saying I'd rather be learning from scratch right now :D Any other long time core users experiencing this?
It did take some getting used to again to go from .6 to what is now .7, though I have been keeping up with the changes pretty regularly so it was a bit more gradual. However I found it a lot faster going from .6 to what was 1.0 alpha than it took from standard to the core. I think a lot of the transition had to do with HOTS being released so I imagine it will now be fairly stable at least until LotV. The layout seems pretty solid now so I can't imagine any drastic changes.
If you aren't already using it I'd really recommend doing drills on the hotkey trainers found in the arcade to get the new keys into muscle memory, it really only takes a couple sessions to get most of the way there.
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Hi there, dear developers of TheCore.
I am a user of this great layout for around a few weeks now and I am loving it. I am still struggling with my muscle memory but it is getting better and better. I have thought about a few things and I wanted to tell you my findings:
1) Someone once suggested CTRL as next subgroup for those without side mouse buttons. I tested this and it is a bad idea. You cannot Ctrl-Click on the wireframe of a unit anymore if you combine different units in one group. Let's say, you have a marine+marouder group and want so select just the marines. If you press ctrl, the wireframes keeps switching back and forth and you cannot select one type properly.
2) As a zerg I thought about the suggested CGs. I agree with most of them. Unfortunately I am not really satisfied. I think I am missing something like a harass group but I did not come to a final conclusion here. It had 2 thoughts:
a) Put ultras to the broodloord group. Someone already suggested this and that would let one group just for lings which could be something like a harass group.
b) Don't divide melee and range units at all. Instead put them together as one big ground army (I used to do this in the past) and use the free group as a harass group.
Both options have their pros and cons. Maybe someone else could give his oppinion to this?!?
3) I like next and previous subgroup on the side mouse buttons alot. In my oppinion the BackMouseButton is much easier to press than the ForwardMouseButton. It is much better reachable on my mouse. Additionally I personally use SubgroupNext much more often than SubgroupPrev. I am not sure if this is true for most of the people but I would change those two functions. (I know I can do it for my own layout, but maybe this is helpful for the majority.)
4) I am teaching my girlfriend how to play SC2. And since she is a total beginner I thought it would be the best to teach her "the right" keys directly. So I introduced TheCore. Since she is playing with a laptop we had to get some kind of keyboard. This is what she made of it for better remembering which key is pressed by which finger:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5sBViUh.jpg)
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^This is so awesome
As far as harass is concerned, I don't think you'll have all of those units at the same time, so you could use w/e CG you don't have for your composition as a harass group, but I see what you mean. We might consider going for something more general like:
Melee
Ranged
SpellCaster1
Harass1
SpellCaster2
Harass2
SpellCaster3
Harass3
Or something like that. Looking more at the function of the CG rather than the units that go in it. Definitely an interesting direction to take.
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Regarding learning:
I agree that big changes suck. As someone who fiddles with things almost every week, fighting your own habits is definitly less fun than learning theCore from scratch. I don't expect there to be huge changes... But that's what we said at 0.2, 0.4, 0.5 and 0.6.3... :p
Still, I hope everyone realizes that this layout is still in Beta mode. Anyone using it now is not only a user, but a tester (and a values one, at that).. So if things change, a) you are more than welcome not to change if you don't think it's worth it, and b) please don't complain things are supposed to change in beta tests, as far as I know.
That being said, I really don't expect huge changes... I mean it :p
@turbo,
Thanks for checking up on that Ctrl as next sg, good to know. I think I like ultra with broods or with hydra /roach, but I don't like lings wit(all ground) with range. One other option is to put ultras on the same
Group as corruptors. They have the same move speed off creep...
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Ooo I like that Jak! CGs by function sounds both flexible in terms of capability and rigid in terms of memorability.
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Congrats on becoming a TL zergling Ninjury
I'm not sure how well the CGs by function will work out. But I'd be very interested to hear about differen't people experience with these types of setups. Like, if you have infestors on your spellcaster 1 normally, but you play a game with vipers on spellcaster 1, does it mess you up?
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Hmmm. I think it might work better in terms of harass because ethe function IS the same. Functions for spell casters are generally not. Likewise, function for ranges combat is the same, while function for melle zerg is not. Then again, maybe not...
Edit: thanks Jak
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This is an issue of the recommended CGs.
If we combine in one CG, a group of units and a structure, then we might have problems with centering the camera at the units.
For example, having a group of 1 siege tank and 2 armories, if we double tap the group's hotkey or use alt, the camera will go to the armories and not the tank.
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@cryu
I agree that this is an issue. Do we have to go back to the old way? Or do we have specific solutions that we can locate? Maybe put the buildings on the least used CGs?
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i just switched to the core because i was looking for something new and this looks perfect one problem im having is that i cant decide whether to use the small or medium. the problem im having is that with the small my hand placement is fine but reaching the alt key is awkward because i have to reach far underneath my palm. with medium, my thumb feels stretched to far for the ctr + shift combo and it gets uncomfortable after a lil while. my left hand is on the keyboard, i use a razer blackhawk should i strech my thumb out so the medium is more comfy after awhile or just learn with the small and avoid the alt key as much as possible. i also just noticed that on the small, when i place my fingers, the alt key is almost directly under my middle finger. if that helps with my hand size...... i alsio play zerg if that info is needed i know long post for simple problem....story of my life
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I would try medium for 2 weeks. If its still uncomfortable to you, go for small. Medium has more functionality than small.
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Actually, how big should my hands be for Large? I'm considering switching for the extra key, but if it strains my hand that wouldn't be worth it at all.
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I just switched yesterday to the Core (currently plat), and it's shocking how quickly I am picking it up. I just beat another plat player on the ladder using it. To make this victory even better, I was only using the Step 1 of The Staircase method (no gas, marines only, 1A) at the time! Me likey...
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On April 29 2013 10:10 JaKaTaK wrote:
I would try medium for 2 weeks. If its still uncomfortable to you, go for small. Medium has more functionality than small.
will do thank you
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npnp darth. Glad to be of service
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Ok, after switching to 0.7 and fooling around a bit I've landed here:
+ Show Spoiler +
I had to rebind the menu and windows keys externally and this kind of freed my side mouse buttons, thinking of having my CC and Production groups there, but I cannot decide. I'm not superstoked about the Techlab on M, might swap it to / and might also swap cloak/decloak to I and H so it matches up with other modal abilities like siege/unsiege. I's love to hear your thoughts on the matter.
After some training my pinkie is suffering less and less, so thanks for the suggestions and the drumming video guys.
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EPT
