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On April 28 2013 06:49 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 06:16 JDub wrote:On April 28 2013 04:50 sixilli wrote:
I'm having a hard time deciding if it's worth switching or not? Any higher level players (diamond +) wanna say why it's better? I've been messing with it here and there. I personally already use camera hotkeys already and the only benefit from switching would be having each production facility on its own control group. As a Masters player who made the switch after 1000s of games played with standard, here's why it's better: + Show Spoiler +Sure you finished Masters 10 times, but you're currently Dia. 
Everyone should know Antylamon is just getting me back for cheesing him on ladder 
On April 28 2013 08:38 JaKaTaK wrote:
EDIT: Something weird happened and it did not make all of the files (it left out 4). I've run out of time to work on it today, maybe JDub could take a look at it and see what I did wrong?
Sorry, I had broken the script. Just fixed it and created the missing 4.
On April 28 2013 08:58 FakeYou wrote:
There seems to be something wrong with the German layout. I think - ; [ = on US keyboards are in the place of ß ö ü ´ on German keyboards, not ü < ö + like it says in Starcraft when I download the file from SkyDrive and also not [ ´ ; ] like it says on GitHub.
I will look into this now. If you wouldn't mind, go into SC2, create a new layout based on Standard, and then rebind 3 ability keys to the 3 keys in between L and Enter on your German keyboard. Save that layout, and then look at the .SC2Hotkeys file that is created, and tell me what SC2 calls those 3 keys. The rest I can figure out by setting my keyboard to German, although if you wouldn't mind doing the same for the keys between 0 and Backspace, and the keys between M and Shift, that would also be great. Then I can make sure the German remapping is correct. Thanks!
Edit: When I set my keyboard to German in Windows, SC2 shows me the correct keys ß ö ü ´ that you listed in your post.
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@thayneq,
In general I agree with you. Clowns do not get to tell physicists their opinions on quantum theory. At least, no one needs to take them seriously. Thus, not everyone's opinion gets equal weight. Further, I agree there is some perfect aggregate layout for all starcraft players.
However, none of us are experts at hotkey design, right? I agree with Jak that your comment was a bit harsh, even though you were mostly right. There is every reason to listen and try to understand anyone who bothers to come here to try the layout. IMO, what distinguishes the fool from the wise man (or woman) is that the fool cannot learn from the wise, but the wise can learn from the fool. (By the way, this isn't meant to accuse anyone of being foolish or silly, I am simply making a general point that does not apply to any individual in particular).
Edit: re next subgroup: this frees up control groups for more army units, and allows one to see all their production at once. I'm confident there are other reasons as well which are currently eluding me.
Edit edit: actually Thayneq, re reading it now, the only part that was really unnecessary was the part you removed. Props to that the rest seems sound to me.
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I've written a blogpost from a different angle to those learning TheCore. It's about what I learned contributing to it.
Hopefully I've hit the right mix of information, entertainment and criticism.
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On April 28 2013 10:20 VeeSe wrote:
What's with the argument for tabbed production here? It gets strongly recommended in the initial guide to The Core, but no real argument made for it other than The Core being set up optimally for it (which is a terrible reason, as the hotkeys should be geared towards the action needs, not the other way around). It seems disadvantageous in almost every way. There's lots of times where you don't need to/want to build units from the first subgroup of buildings (or even worse, the first two subgroups), and you now have more than doubled your keystrokes to get to that third subgroup. I've been using it and finding it very inconvenient so far.
If you don't want to build from either of the first two subgroups, rather than hit "next subgroup" twice you should just hit "previous subgroup" once.
Other than that, if you want to have a separate control group for each production facility you can easily do that yourself. It wouldn't require any changes to the core as far as I can see.
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why in the new version of the core, cant we use the mouse for more controlgroups? (i cant find TRMM)
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On April 28 2013 16:36 regander wrote:
why in the new version of the core, we cant use the mouse for more controlgroups?
The mouse buttons were changed to allow forward and backward tabbing, and free up keys on the keyboard for other features. It also keeps all control groups in one area which is more intuitive. Of course, you can always change the keys if you prefer groups on the mouse buttons, it doesn't take long to customize. Many of us have made slight tweaks off of 'standard' to better fir our comfort and/or needs .
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On April 28 2013 08:21 thayneq wrote:What don't you like about camera hotkeys? I find being able to get back to any single base with 1 click is extremely useful. For Zerg the benefit is being able to inject like a crazy person. For Protoss, being able to shift-click probes back to mineral lines is very common, and for all races, pulling drones for defending drops is game-changing.
in my opinion having less different keys to press is easier to handle.
i play terran, i think for zerg it is great to use the camerakeys, but i just go back to my base (to build) via my production hotkeys (doubletap) and to my newest base with the command center group (to drop mules there)
for every other action i click on the minimap because i am fast enough with that (i am at masters and i dont want to go pro :p ) and it is more accurate because i dont need any scrolling. if i set my camera to my main base and there is a drop , i need to press the camera key and still scroll sometimes because the main base is so big that it doenst fit on one screen.
On April 28 2013 08:21 thayneq wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 06:06 graNite wrote:
i think 10 control groups are not needed Agree that for most amateur players, 10CGs may not be needed, but you aren't forced to use all 10 if you don't want. Use 1 if that works for you. I imagine in most games, a very high level player might utilize on average 6-7, and for long crazy macro games, they may use all 10. If you compare this to the standard layout, since most of the CGs are very far away from your fingers, it's easy to imagine that players will utilize only the CGs that are in reach. Once you master TheCore, you can use all 10 very easily because they are all accessible to you.
ill post my setup really quick:
+ Show Spoiler + 1 main army
2 scout/drop/ghost/tanks (depends on current stage of the game and matchup)
3 orbitals/pfs/upgrade structures
4 barracks
5 factory
6 starports
^ ghost academies (only in super late game scenarios)
i dont need more groups and because thecore is built around having 10, it is not optimal for me.
On April 28 2013 08:21 thayneq wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 06:06 graNite wrote:
the most important units were not under my index finger. TheCore has 5 of the 10 CGs directly under the control of the Index finger.
i meant "build units" not control units with groups.
i use a custom grid layout now and i have marines and scvs on my index finger for example.
On April 28 2013 08:21 thayneq wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 06:06 graNite wrote:
to create groups you need to press three keys which make absolutely no sense to me. As Jak mentioned, the "create group" action is actually a "re-assign" action, which is much less common than "add to CG." If a group doesn't exist, simply use the CTRL+CG key to add, and thus create, the CG. When you need to remove units, or re-assign, simply use CTRL+Shift, which is really not difficult at all since it's all done with the same finger.
i think reassigning a group is at least used the same amount of times (in my games) like "add to group".
i understood it wrong (using index+thumb for ctrl+shift) but that doesnt change my opinion about the hotkeys to reassign a group:
pressing two buttons with one finger seems unaccurate to me (i havent tried it too be honest, just guessing here) and maybe it needs some practice to be done; but why just dont go the easy way?
i have shift+cg to "add to groups" and alt+cg to "reassign" which is really easy for me to press
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i just read thayneq's "negative" comment:
i am not here to be negative. i am checking this thread regularly because i think it is very interesting and because i wanted to change my hotkey setup. i made some games with thecore, looked into it and compared it to my setup and came to the conclusion that mine "just fits me better". now i just wanted to share my points with all the others, because it may help in the further development
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@Skomski: Jak put build and advanced build that way so that it's easier to shift create multiple building types. I think most people just get used to it, but I actually agree with you and rebind the keys do that build basic is on / and advanced build is on '. I personally just love the way that feels, so I just leave it like that. If you decide to also switch them, I would recommend also rebinding CC to / so that expanding and creating command centers is a simple double tap. Because if you leave it on', it becomes very awkward hit that combination. But that's the best part of the core. They've optimized the shit out of it but it's still really flexible and has plenty of room for customization.
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@graNite,
I think your Problem is, that you have the wrong Idea about where the fingers go and which finger does what.
Please look at the OP for the introductory videos and graphics.
As Jak just said. Ctrl+Shift is done with your thumb ONLY - no funky thumb + index combination - so it is no different than pressing these keys seperatly. Also most of the time you want to add to control groups - not create them.
EDIT
nvm. everything has already been said
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On April 28 2013 11:29 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 08:58 FakeYou wrote:
There seems to be something wrong with the German layout. I think - ; [ = on US keyboards are in the place of ß ö ü ´ on German keyboards, not ü < ö + like it says in Starcraft when I download the file from SkyDrive and also not [ ´ ; ] like it says on GitHub. I will look into this now. If you wouldn't mind, go into SC2, create a new layout based on Standard, and then rebind 3 ability keys to the 3 keys in between L and Enter on your German keyboard. Save that layout, and then look at the .SC2Hotkeys file that is created, and tell me what SC2 calls those 3 keys. The rest I can figure out by setting my keyboard to German, although if you wouldn't mind doing the same for the keys between 0 and Backspace, and the keys between M and Shift, that would also be great. Then I can make sure the German remapping is correct. Thanks! Edit: When I set my keyboard to German in Windows, SC2 shows me the correct keys ß ö ü ´ that you listed in your post.
Ah nevermind, that was probably a misunderstanding on my part- When I made my post yesterday I had downloaded the file from the "German" folder on SkyDrive. I just now had the idea to go to GitHub, and not click on the "German folder. I thought the files in the main directory were only for US keyboards. Which they are not. So it's working for me right now exactly as it should. Thanks.
SC2 names the keys after their positions on an English keyboard, it seems. That means:
´ (left of backspace) is called Equals and ß (left of ´) is Minus,
ü (to the left of p) is BracketOpen and + (between Enter and ü) is BracketClose,
the keys to the right of L (ö ä #) are SemiColon, Apostrophe and BackSlash,
, is Comma, . is Period and - is Slash.
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I'm using the small Core version, as my hands are rather small.
Now look at the following pictures:
+ Show Spoiler +http://s14.directupload.net/images/130428/l9suo493.jpg
+ Show Spoiler +http://s7.directupload.net/images/130428/h9eenyz4.jpg
In the first picture one my hands is at rest in a comfortable and relaxed position.
In the second one I try to reach shift+ctrl. As you can see, my thumb has to stay in an awkward, uncomfortable position. Reaching these buttons feels bad, almost painful after a certain time.
I suppose that this is not intended by TheCore layout. So what's wrong? My hands are not that small and my Microsoft keyboard is rather standard.
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If we combine in one CG, a group of units and a structure, then we might have problems with centering the camera at the units.
For example, having a group of 1 siege tank and 2 armories, if we double tap the group's hotkey or use alt, the camera will go to the armories and not the tank.
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On April 28 2013 19:01 FlOverlord wrote:@graNite, I think your Problem is, that you have the wrong Idea about where the fingers go and which finger does what. Please look at the OP for the introductory videos and graphics. As Jak just said. Ctrl+Shift is done with your thumb ONLY - no funky thumb + index combination - so it is no different than pressing these keys seperatly. Also most of the time you want to add to control groups - not create them. EDIT nvm. everything has already been said
did you read my post?
i already said two times that i got it wrong, but still dont like to use one finger for two buttons at the same time and that - in my game - reassigning a group happens at least as often as adding to group...
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On April 28 2013 18:02 graNite wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 08:21 thayneq wrote:On April 28 2013 06:06 graNite wrote:
i dont like camera hotkeys What don't you like about camera hotkeys? I find being able to get back to any single base with 1 click is extremely useful. For Zerg the benefit is being able to inject like a crazy person. For Protoss, being able to shift-click probes back to mineral lines is very common, and for all races, pulling drones for defending drops is game-changing. in my opinion having less different keys to press is easier to handle. i play terran, i think for zerg it is great to use the camerakeys, but i just go back to my base (to build) via my production hotkeys (doubletap) and to my newest base with the command center group (to drop mules there) for every other action i click on the minimap because i am fast enough with that (i am at masters and i dont want to go pro :p ) and it is more accurate because i dont need any scrolling. if i set my camera to my main base and there is a drop , i need to press the camera key and still scroll sometimes because the main base is so big that it doenst fit on one screen.
1) Double tapping the CC is more problematic when shift-queueing actions. For example, to build a depot at your ramp and queue the scv to return to your minerals is quicker with cameras since cameras don't change what you have selected. For me, this was the most immediately noticeable benefit of cameras as terran.
2) A free cam at a rally point is useful for grabbing your fresh troops.
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On April 28 2013 20:59 graNite wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 19:01 FlOverlord wrote:@graNite, I think your Problem is, that you have the wrong Idea about where the fingers go and which finger does what. Please look at the OP for the introductory videos and graphics. As Jak just said. Ctrl+Shift is done with your thumb ONLY - no funky thumb + index combination - so it is no different than pressing these keys seperatly. Also most of the time you want to add to control groups - not create them. EDIT nvm. everything has already been said did you read my post? i already said two times that i got it wrong, but still dont like to use one finger for two buttons at the same time and that - in my game - reassigning a group happens at least as often as adding to group...
Obviously personal experience varies, but hitting control-shift with my thumb was very easy to pick up and is now automatic after 51 ladder games on the core (plus various goofing off). It honestly feels no worse than hitting ctrl or shift.
Your bad experience with ctrl-shift could just be a lack of games or perhaps bad keyboard positioning?
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On April 28 2013 20:01 ProbeEtPylon wrote:I'm using the small Core version, as my hands are rather small. Now look at the following pictures: + Show Spoiler +http://s14.directupload.net/images/130428/l9suo493.jpg http://s7.directupload.net/images/130428/h9eenyz4.jpg In the first picture one my hands is at rest in a comfortable and relaxed position. In the second one I try to reach shift+ctrl. As you can see, my thumb has to stay in an awkward, uncomfortable position. Reaching these buttons feels bad, almost painful after a certain time. I suppose that this is not intended by TheCore layout. So what's wrong? My hands are not that small and my Microsoft keyboard is rather standard.
If you have to stretch you thumb to hit that combo then you're not tilting you keyboard enough. It should all be under your thumb from the start, no stretch required.
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Just random thoughts, and addressing the points of graNite:
I feel ctrl+shift is ok to hit. As I don't use it very often (as opposed to ctrl for adding) it is ok for me.
Controll groups: I usually have:
1.) Hatches
2.) Army
3.) Inject Queen
4.) Creep Queen
5.) Flyer Units
6.) Harass
Even though my level is "decent" (upper Plat) I don't use too many spell-caster units and don't have a controll group for them. I think I might start to have designated spell-caster groups in the future. So while I don't need all CG right now, it is good to know they are availabel.
The thing that felt really weird at the beginning was having the attack-move key on the pinkey. The index finger was the "kill"-finger up to this point in grid-layout I believe.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrl1md6QD31qdlkgg.gif)
