|
On May 01 2012 20:04 smof wrote:
does this "guide" only works for terran?
It'll work for protoss also, with the difference of:
-Benchmarks.
-Build.
and proxy pylon placement.
so differences are not so severe.
For P i'm still trying to figure out correct BO.
but it's something like:
Bronze-silver:
Huk's 20 nexus -> 3 gate -> 6 gate
(maybe robo for obs)
Pure stalkers, with push at 10:00
Gold-Plat:
Huk's 20 nexus -> 2gate robo (fast forge)-> 5 gate robo
Stalker/Immortal push, with +2 push (and blink?) at 10:30
Probes should be at
~60+ @10:00
Food: 100+
|
Hello everyone, have to start with I just picked up Starcraft 2 a few weeks ago and haven't been on ladder yet. Have been trying to read lots of guides,etc to save some embarrassment while learning to play. Filter, this guide has been far and away the most helpful, so thank you. However, I prefer Protoss from my Starcraft 1 single player days over a decade ago. Is the Huk 20 the best build to learn to try out these ideas or should I go 15 nexus builds first for macro advancement?
Another question for my fellow Toss players - What build would you all suggest I learn first for ladder against each race? My multitasking isn't very good yet so a safer expo build would probably suit my playstyle best. Thanks in advance for your help!
|
|
|
Is there any plans on releasing diamond-masters aswell?
|
|
|
On May 02 2012 06:10 smof wrote:
Is there any plans on releasing diamond-masters aswell?
There's diamond stuff up on the channel already, the masters content should start getting made today... although thats much more open ended.
I've been livestreaming the diamond to masters games @ www.twitch.tv/filtersc so you can check that out if you want to see games + replay analysis.
|
Thank you very much. I've been playing for less than a month but was placed into Gold right away, and the bronze and silver videos helped so much, have felt huge improvement. Watching Gold video now = )
|
On April 30 2012 14:07 -Aura- wrote:
First of all thank you so much for this guide yo. I've been diamond since season 1, and with this I'm hoping to finally get to masters. (I'm up to video 15, though I'm only doing one style per matchup in order to maximize my effectiveness.)
Second of all why not update the OP with videos 9-15? I didn't even realize they existed for a while lol.
Now here's the thing I'm having issues with: (about mid-high diamond on the ladder)
- I find that when I scout so late (after the barracks) I am often too late to get significant intel. Especially on maps with multiple spawn points, I often get caught by lings, marines or the first stalker if I am unlucky with my inital guess as to where he has spawned. He could be doing anything, and if I can't get into his base here is my next state:
TvT: I'll scan at 6 minutes, see what's up. this is the smallest problem.
TvZ: There are really two times when I need to scan to be sure there is no allin coming, about 5:30ish and about 8:30. The first scan would spot if he's mined a lot of gas, in which case it's going to be some kind of RR or bust. the second scan will tell me whether or not he's going for a massive Tang style bust with ling bling roach (I know he isn't if he's making a lair). I really can't afford two scans, so I'm kind of stuck.
TvP: If I don't get in to his base I am generally screwed. A scan is often meaningless, because if he went for a weird tech build he would hide the tech in a corner where i won't see it with a scan. I usually try to sneak another scv into his natural to see if he expanded, but good players will have a single stalker there to stop me, unless I hit in the exact timing he moves out with his first stalker. So I'm kind of screwed if the P is in the 4th position I scout.
Also I keep losing to aggressive zergs and greedy protosses. I feel like I don't have enough scouting information due to the lack of early hellions in TvZ, and I never have enough time to throw down additional bunkers. this means I lose to all kinds of bling busts. Roach rushes I can usually beat because I can repair my bunker with a quick pull. In video 14 you beat a bling bust by immediately pulling all your scvs + army ack into your main. However sometimes the zergs I play will first drone to 40, then bust with only 6 or 7 blings and then go back to drone. That means if I sack my natural I will probably be behind.
In TvP i find that some protosses simply stop producing units when they scout my 1 rax expand, and just rush to chargelot archon as fast as possible. So when I hit at 10:30 they already have archons and chargelots. I don't have enough marinesto do the DPS, and ghosts are a few minutes away.
I know I should give replays, and I will later. Just wanted to write out some of the problems I was having. Once again, thank you so much Filter for doing these tutorials. You really helped me understand what's holding me back from masters. ^^
So, a little help please? Don't mean to be rude, but I'm still losing to early bling busts, roach ling bling late busts, and greedy protosses.
|
On May 02 2012 12:58 -Aura- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 14:07 -Aura- wrote:
First of all thank you so much for this guide yo. I've been diamond since season 1, and with this I'm hoping to finally get to masters. (I'm up to video 15, though I'm only doing one style per matchup in order to maximize my effectiveness.)
Second of all why not update the OP with videos 9-15? I didn't even realize they existed for a while lol.
Now here's the thing I'm having issues with: (about mid-high diamond on the ladder)
- I find that when I scout so late (after the barracks) I am often too late to get significant intel. Especially on maps with multiple spawn points, I often get caught by lings, marines or the first stalker if I am unlucky with my inital guess as to where he has spawned. He could be doing anything, and if I can't get into his base here is my next state:
TvT: I'll scan at 6 minutes, see what's up. this is the smallest problem.
TvZ: There are really two times when I need to scan to be sure there is no allin coming, about 5:30ish and about 8:30. The first scan would spot if he's mined a lot of gas, in which case it's going to be some kind of RR or bust. the second scan will tell me whether or not he's going for a massive Tang style bust with ling bling roach (I know he isn't if he's making a lair). I really can't afford two scans, so I'm kind of stuck.
TvP: If I don't get in to his base I am generally screwed. A scan is often meaningless, because if he went for a weird tech build he would hide the tech in a corner where i won't see it with a scan. I usually try to sneak another scv into his natural to see if he expanded, but good players will have a single stalker there to stop me, unless I hit in the exact timing he moves out with his first stalker. So I'm kind of screwed if the P is in the 4th position I scout.
Also I keep losing to aggressive zergs and greedy protosses. I feel like I don't have enough scouting information due to the lack of early hellions in TvZ, and I never have enough time to throw down additional bunkers. this means I lose to all kinds of bling busts. Roach rushes I can usually beat because I can repair my bunker with a quick pull. In video 14 you beat a bling bust by immediately pulling all your scvs + army ack into your main. However sometimes the zergs I play will first drone to 40, then bust with only 6 or 7 blings and then go back to drone. That means if I sack my natural I will probably be behind.
In TvP i find that some protosses simply stop producing units when they scout my 1 rax expand, and just rush to chargelot archon as fast as possible. So when I hit at 10:30 they already have archons and chargelots. I don't have enough marinesto do the DPS, and ghosts are a few minutes away.
I know I should give replays, and I will later. Just wanted to write out some of the problems I was having. Once again, thank you so much Filter for doing these tutorials. You really helped me understand what's holding me back from masters. ^^ So, a little help please? Don't mean to be rude, but I'm still losing to early bling busts, roach ling bling late busts, and greedy protosses.
Doing a Marine Marauder Hellion style you can hold pretty much any bust, the marauders tank the banes / kill roaches, marines are good in general and hellions clean up the lings. You also end up with a really strong mobile force to take your third /attack with. I really love that style.
I'm struggling a bit against toss myself, not really with the greedy ones until I make a mistake late late game but some allins are getting me from mistakes I make. I think you need to be ultra aggressive on daybreak and shakura's to stand a chance (I veto tal darim, korhal and metal out of personal preference) because those two maps give you no real way to engage and offer relatively easy 4th and 5th bases.
I think I can chalk up my tvp's to simply not getting ghosts fast enough though. (or enough of them)
|
On May 02 2012 13:20 Filter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 12:58 -Aura- wrote:On April 30 2012 14:07 -Aura- wrote:
First of all thank you so much for this guide yo. I've been diamond since season 1, and with this I'm hoping to finally get to masters. (I'm up to video 15, though I'm only doing one style per matchup in order to maximize my effectiveness.)
Second of all why not update the OP with videos 9-15? I didn't even realize they existed for a while lol.
Now here's the thing I'm having issues with: (about mid-high diamond on the ladder)
- I find that when I scout so late (after the barracks) I am often too late to get significant intel. Especially on maps with multiple spawn points, I often get caught by lings, marines or the first stalker if I am unlucky with my inital guess as to where he has spawned. He could be doing anything, and if I can't get into his base here is my next state:
TvT: I'll scan at 6 minutes, see what's up. this is the smallest problem.
TvZ: There are really two times when I need to scan to be sure there is no allin coming, about 5:30ish and about 8:30. The first scan would spot if he's mined a lot of gas, in which case it's going to be some kind of RR or bust. the second scan will tell me whether or not he's going for a massive Tang style bust with ling bling roach (I know he isn't if he's making a lair). I really can't afford two scans, so I'm kind of stuck.
TvP: If I don't get in to his base I am generally screwed. A scan is often meaningless, because if he went for a weird tech build he would hide the tech in a corner where i won't see it with a scan. I usually try to sneak another scv into his natural to see if he expanded, but good players will have a single stalker there to stop me, unless I hit in the exact timing he moves out with his first stalker. So I'm kind of screwed if the P is in the 4th position I scout.
Also I keep losing to aggressive zergs and greedy protosses. I feel like I don't have enough scouting information due to the lack of early hellions in TvZ, and I never have enough time to throw down additional bunkers. this means I lose to all kinds of bling busts. Roach rushes I can usually beat because I can repair my bunker with a quick pull. In video 14 you beat a bling bust by immediately pulling all your scvs + army ack into your main. However sometimes the zergs I play will first drone to 40, then bust with only 6 or 7 blings and then go back to drone. That means if I sack my natural I will probably be behind.
In TvP i find that some protosses simply stop producing units when they scout my 1 rax expand, and just rush to chargelot archon as fast as possible. So when I hit at 10:30 they already have archons and chargelots. I don't have enough marinesto do the DPS, and ghosts are a few minutes away.
I know I should give replays, and I will later. Just wanted to write out some of the problems I was having. Once again, thank you so much Filter for doing these tutorials. You really helped me understand what's holding me back from masters. ^^ So, a little help please? Don't mean to be rude, but I'm still losing to early bling busts, roach ling bling late busts, and greedy protosses. Doing a Marine Marauder Hellion style you can hold pretty much any bust, the marauders tank the banes / kill roaches, marines are good in general and hellions clean up the lings. You also end up with a really strong mobile force to take your third /attack with. I really love that style. I'm struggling a bit against toss myself, not really with the greedy ones until I make a mistake late late game but some allins are getting me from mistakes I make. I think you need to be ultra aggressive on daybreak and shakura's to stand a chance (I veto tal darim, korhal and metal out of personal preference) because those two maps give you no real way to engage and offer relatively easy 4th and 5th bases. I think I can chalk up my tvp's to simply not getting ghosts fast enough though. (or enough of them)
Yeah I veto the same maps lol.
Here's my problem with the busts: Let's say I see him pull off his drones after 100 gas, and then my scv gets chased away by lings. Since I am going 1 rax expand, if he is persistent in keeping towers with lings I can't get any more scouting information without a scan. So as soon as my scv is gone he puts drones back on gas and goes bling bust. If I had been going for a reactor hellion style I would be ale to have some form of map control and be able to better anticipate the bust through number of lings produced etc. But because I went 1 rax expand, I am stuck in my base. So, I could scan say at 5 minutes or something and check how much gas he mined, but I don't want to be scanning the zerg twice before 10 minutes, and I NEED to scout him at 8:30 or I will auto lose if he goes for the 9 minute ling bling roach style bust.
So what do I do? this is especially troubling, because it seems every zerg on ladder tries to bust me in some way lol.
|
I really like Filter's way of teaching. He gives you a picture to compare with (i.e. 50 SCV's at 10min). Thanks to the first few videos I am now in gold. Sure I've only played placement matches, but I have enjoyed practicing nothing but marine and scv production. It worked against everybody except the last two matches against gold zergs (they knew how to make banes). Anyway, keep up the good work and thank you so much!
|
Dr Filter,
What is your mindset while keeping from getting distracted from your build by early pressure? My main problem is that my macro falls apart as I start to defend drops/bane busts at 7 mins or so. I usually still win, but my benchmarks go to hell including easy ones like making the starport at the right time. Any mindset advice?
My working model is to mostly ignore the pressure and just continue to macro until the macro is automatic enough that i dont have to worry. Then I die 
PS, my apm is 96, my Eapm is 87, according to my last 10 or so matches on sc2gears.
|
Thanks a whole lot for these videos. I have been playing fairly well as a terran (used to be toss) and was playing at a gold level. Your videos helped me work on my mechanics and after serious practice and improvement I find that I am almost at a diamond level.
However, it seems that you just started doing demonstration videos. I liked the specific videos that helped explain some critical benchmarks in your games. I wonder if there are similar areas that can be highlighted.
I really like how you seperated the topics like, "when to place buildings" or "when to take a 3rd". These things help to keep things organized so I know exactly what I'm going to improving on, as opposed to watching an entire video and hoping to learn something.
Regardless, I love your videos and they are still helping me out!
|
On May 02 2012 14:36 Natespank wrote:Dr Filter, What is your mindset while keeping from getting distracted from your build by early pressure? My main problem is that my macro falls apart as I start to defend drops/bane busts at 7 mins or so. I usually still win, but my benchmarks go to hell including easy ones like making the starport at the right time. Any mindset advice? My working model is to mostly ignore the pressure and just continue to macro until the macro is automatic enough that i dont have to worry. Then I die PS, my apm is 96, my Eapm is 87, according to my last 10 or so matches on sc2gears.
You need to really focus on two things, at least in my opinion.
#1 Get your tech up to where it needs to be, if you want a starport making medivacs get there. Stick with your plan, don't go "oh two port banshee would be good here" just stick to the plan
#2 Defend with everything, scv's etc and make the right call. Evacuate to high ground if needed, use marauders to tank banes on your ramp etc.
The last thing is, if it's "bad" cheese. (aka something so weird it throws you off to the point you lose to it) then just ignore the game and move on. Next time you see that weird stuff you'll stop it.
|
Okay, I know a lot of you have been wondering how to stave off the early pressure or all-ins that Z/P usually do when they see you going Gasless FE.
Here's my suggestion: Scout.
Always keep a marine on the xel'naga, if it gets killed, send 2 more.
For Z, if you see mass Ling numbers as you send out your scout, expect a ling bane all in. If this is the case make a wall with a few bunkers safely behind it to easily get repaired. And like Filter said, Marauders do really good at absorbing bane hits. Just try not to clump them too close together, or else the bling AOE could do significantly more damage, more than they would have if the rauders weren't too clumped up.
Same goes with roach/bling/ling al-in, you can even drop some engibays to absorb more damage than supply depots/bunkers.
For P, you always need to scout their 3rd. Leave a Marine behind the 3rd mineral lines and wait to see that probe drop down the third.
If you see the third go down, you may possibly end the game with your 10 min pressure+good micro.
If you see that the toss has AOE during your 10 min pressure, pull back and start getting the counter to their AOE; You see them teching to Cols, you get an extra starport. You see mass zeals, expect a templar transition, and get your ghost academy down.
The 10min attack isn't meant to outright kill your opponent unless they're playing really greedy or tech heavy. If/When you learn the proper timings to put on pressure and scout what they're doing, you'll learn how to effectively deal with whatever threat you're put against.
Also, always expand behind your 10min attack. <--- VERY important. This helps you give you the economy to sustain your constant production.
Against Terran it's somewhat a little more difficult. Same with other races, always get the Xel'Naga. Your life depends on it.
If the T sees you getting an early expo, and you scout him not doing the same. Expect a few things:
-Banshee -> expo
-Banshee -> MarineTankBanshee 1 base.
-Marine Tank 1 Base push
-Hellion drop
-MarineHellion Elevator
-3/4rax Bio all-in
You can hold off most of these threats by pulling most, if not all, your scvs and using them in your attack. Especially against the TankMarine 1 base pushes.
(It's fine using your scvs for buffer against the attacks because you'll have more since you're on 2bases and just waiting on the medis to come out. When you have your tech, with stim marines all you need to do is split your units properly to nullify siege tank splash damage.)
By the time the banshees arrive in your base, you should have had enough time to drop a turret by each mineral line and one in between your two bases <--This thwarts banshee pressure.
IF his banshee starts picking off your marines, that means he's thinning your army, and most prolly gonna follow up with his 1base MarineTankBanshee all-in follow up.
Hellion drops can be dealt with by also splitting your marine army, and never letting them get clumped up.
Watch Thorzain vs Polt last game from DH stockholm where Thorzain holds off the MarineHellion elevator which in turn puts him at a big advantage, in terms of economy.
And against 3/4rax Bio all in, you need atleast 2 bunkers with repair.
Stay safe Terrans!
|
First of all, I want to thank Filter for this guide. I am in bronze and this guide really has helped me understand what do I have to do to get better - fix my macro and mechanics. I tried out the terran bronze build order and it worked very well on ladder.
I made a build order for bronze protoss. I do mass zealot, expand at 3:30 after second pylon. I start assimilator at 4:50. Then I get cyber core, twilight council and charge. After I have mined 300 gas I pull probes back to minerals. I chrono boost the charge upgrade. I have 55 or so probes and 22-24 zealots at 10:00 when I move out. My charge finishes at 10:15 or so. I don't get warpgates. I hope it helped any bronze protoss out there.
Next I think I'll try incorporating warp gates and a proxy pylon
|
Thank you for this guide Filter.
I'm trying to work on something along this line to help myself get used to play as Zerg. Anyone got any ideas for a starting build? I'm not fussed about winning while I practice it really, just a good general build that will help to practice injecting, hotkeys, using larvae.
Thanks again, lots of interesting results with this it seems
|
I want to say thank you Filter, aswell.
Although I had a bumpy start with this, I refined the Gold build enough to fit my playstyle well. I get Stim quite early (finish at like 8:00) and then have nearly 50 SCVs, about 100 food, 2 Tanks, 1 Medivac and Combat Shields out at around 10minutes. So I can usually attack him, if he expanded yet too, while being kinda safe, if he's trying some 1 base pressure instead. Worked against all 3 races for me yet (Yes, I used Tanks against Protoss too and it was so great baiting him into them ).
Btw I think you can't have Stim early enough, because it gives so much more firepower... for defense aswell. That's why i tried to squeeze it in so soon.
|
yeah thanks man i'm in plat now due to the guide and using the basics and then start trying to explorer with new tech ideas. My question is now that i am plat do i need to look into diamond lvl tactics and start learning how to do diff things or what?
|
This is probably THE best thing to help beginning players get better. It sure helps me a lot.
I have one little thing to criticize though (a problem that similar guides from other players often have as well):
You make it look a bit too easy by showing only replays of games you won. The truth is that most people will probably lose a lot while practicing this. They will probably lose to every cheese play under the sun at least once. (I know I have...)
I would expect that many people might get discouraged and frustrated by that and call it a day before they will see any positive results of the training.
I know you said somewhere that it's not about winning in the ladder but improving your play... maybe you should emphasize that a little more.
Thanks again for all the work you've put into this, it's much appreciated.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
