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On November 21 2011 21:13 flipstorm wrote:
I feel like phoenix builds are the safest in PvP. You get complete map control, can snipe probes and sentries/zealots and get free scouting info. Plus phoenix play basically hardcounters any 1 base robo openers which still seem to be common in plat/diamond at least. I always chuckle when I stroll into my enemy's base and see him with a couple immortals. As long as you make the right transitions you should be able to win most games.
I usually open 1 gate stargate, and get a sentry out to be safe against 4 gates. Then add 2 more gates and move out with 3 phoenix and begin harassing probes and sniping sentries/zealots. I usually go up to 6-7 phoenix and then stop, if I see my opponent going blink I immediately stop phoenix production and build immortals. You would think blink counters phoenix but it really doesn't in small numbers. Its kind of like stalkers vs mutas where the air unit can just fly in and out and snipe stuff cuz they are so fast until there is a large ball of blink stalkers. From there just control the map, expand and transition into colossus. I will say that blink builds are the hardest to beat after opening stargate. You just need to build immortals in time to shut down their blink into main harass. Use phoenixes to check for there ninja expos.
If your opponent is trying some 1 base robo all in you can basically just walk over and kill them. If they try to expand you can kill them. If they decide to sit on their 1 base you are free to expand as you keep them stuck in their base with the phoenix harass. You can then mass voids and lol at the robo player.
In phoenix vs phoenix, I transition into blink and robo. Have to be careful about expanding here as you can just get rolled over if you expand too quick. I usually go for ninja expos and just transition into blink/obs play and eventually to colossus.
A DT rush could kill you if you don't but usually you get to their base with your first 3 phoenix in time to scout it and prepare for it. A delayed 4 gate could also kill a stargate opener as you cant FF the ramp indefinitely and phoenixes suck straight up vs stalkers but I have never had someone do this to me yet opening stargate.
There's no way you can be safe against 4 gate with only one gate. If you're going to be greedy, you might as well not get sentry at all and save up gas for your transition.
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Well, after the 6 minute mark, I make a robo if i see dt's or I double expand. It works the same way mutas work, you cant stop him without losing your base. Going from robo/ 4 gate tech to high templars with storm takes SUCH a long time. Idk what game you're playing but toss cant switch tech without time. I usually open 2-3 gate and 1 stargate depending what i scout. I go double stargate and then i harass. I never really stop until i have around 10. Because A. They pick off sentrys, and zealot meat shields. B. 10 is enough energy to kill an entire probe line. But they need to be separated and scouting your opponent to make sure nothing is happening. As most would say, blink doesnt stop it, if anything you force them to blink to their main and then you kill their nat. If you scout an all in, your micro should be good enough to stop them, and pick up the zealots. And have around 3 sentrys by the time K-4 gate is done (5:30) so I'm fairly safe against 4 g. But its really about your micro, and transition.
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United States8476 Posts
On November 22 2011 01:41 GoSuBlood wrote:
Well, after the 6 minute mark, I make a robo if i see dt's or I double expand. It works the same way mutas work, you cant stop him without losing your base. Going from robo/ 4 gate tech to high templars with storm takes SUCH a long time. Idk what game you're playing but toss cant switch tech without time. I usually open 2-3 gate and 1 stargate depending what i scout. I go double stargate and then i harass. I never really stop until i have around 10. Because A. They pick off sentrys, and zealot meat shields. B. 10 is enough energy to kill an entire probe line. But they need to be separated and scouting your opponent to make sure nothing is happening. As most would say, blink doesnt stop it, if anything you force them to blink to their main and then you kill their nat. If you scout an all in, your micro should be good enough to stop them, and pick up the zealots. And have around 3 sentrys by the time K-4 gate is done (5:30) so I'm fairly safe against 4 g. But its really about your micro, and transition.
You can't spot dts at the 6 minute mark. You can't double expand at the 6 minute mark. Templar are for feedback, not storm. Why are you worried about korean 4 gate and getting sentries? Sentries suck versus korean 4 gate. You mean regular 4 gate. You need to play against better protoss players.
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On November 21 2011 20:17 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 16:24 GoSuBlood wrote:
Me and a master friend played around for a few hours with phoenix play. Its really cool. Basically we found that a person who goes phoenix can keep their opponent contained for a while until they can deal with the phoenix's. The phoenix player is free to double expand, and has absolute scouting. A person with good apm can avoid cannons until there are 4 or 5 which is alot of minerals. The only counter to mass phoenix is archons and stalkers (barely). So you can assume to tech to zealot immortal, as you secure air control. I just think it gives you a very big economic advantage over robo play. If they go dt's you need to scout it though. which you should be able to FF the ramp if anything. But the key here is to double expand, otherwise you'll be screwed.
EDIT: Basically I used them like mutalisk harass. You NEED to be scouting though. You can't double expand with phoenix. High templar are also good vs phoenix. Sure you can go zealot immortal as a followup, but not pure zealot immortals.
So what can a toss who commits to an 4 gate or goes robo tech do against me if I have can kill his min line? Are you assuming I cant scout and call "he's essentially dead"
High templars? Yes, because all toss players RUSH for HT. It takes time. If you know how to get amulet back, please tell me so i know not to use phoenix anymore. Or did they become cybernetics core tech? Please, tell me. I would love to know.
Zealot immortal is fine because you have one more base. What counters zealot immortal phoneix? Colossi < phoniex, Stalkers< immortals / zealots, zealots < +1 more base worth of zealots.
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On November 22 2011 01:45 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 01:41 GoSuBlood wrote:
Well, after the 6 minute mark, I make a robo if i see dt's or I double expand. It works the same way mutas work, you cant stop him without losing your base. Going from robo/ 4 gate tech to high templars with storm takes SUCH a long time. Idk what game you're playing but toss cant switch tech without time. I usually open 2-3 gate and 1 stargate depending what i scout. I go double stargate and then i harass. I never really stop until i have around 10. Because A. They pick off sentrys, and zealot meat shields. B. 10 is enough energy to kill an entire probe line. But they need to be separated and scouting your opponent to make sure nothing is happening. As most would say, blink doesnt stop it, if anything you force them to blink to their main and then you kill their nat. If you scout an all in, your micro should be good enough to stop them, and pick up the zealots. And have around 3 sentrys by the time K-4 gate is done (5:30) so I'm fairly safe against 4 g. But its really about your micro, and transition. You can't spot dts at the 6 minute mark. You can't double expand at the 6 minute mark. Templar are for feedback, not storm. Why are you worried about korean 4 gate and getting sentries? Sentries suck versus korean 4 gate. You mean regular 4 gate. You need to play against better protoss players.
You don't know how to scout Dt's? Thats sad.... I never said 6 minute mark did I? When did I say expand at 6 minutes? No, what the hell kind of reading skills do you have? You just assume double expand means 6 minutes? ALSO, IM GUESSING THAT FEEDBACK IS STILL CYB CORE? 10 gate, 1 chrono on nexus, isnt standard 4 gate. It warps in at 5:30. doesnt finish at 5:30. Standard 4 gate warps in at 5:45.
User was warned for this post
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On November 22 2011 01:48 GoSuBlood wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 20:17 NrGmonk wrote:On November 21 2011 16:24 GoSuBlood wrote:
Me and a master friend played around for a few hours with phoenix play. Its really cool. Basically we found that a person who goes phoenix can keep their opponent contained for a while until they can deal with the phoenix's. The phoenix player is free to double expand, and has absolute scouting. A person with good apm can avoid cannons until there are 4 or 5 which is alot of minerals. The only counter to mass phoenix is archons and stalkers (barely). So you can assume to tech to zealot immortal, as you secure air control. I just think it gives you a very big economic advantage over robo play. If they go dt's you need to scout it though. which you should be able to FF the ramp if anything. But the key here is to double expand, otherwise you'll be screwed.
EDIT: Basically I used them like mutalisk harass. You NEED to be scouting though. You can't double expand with phoenix. High templar are also good vs phoenix. Sure you can go zealot immortal as a followup, but not pure zealot immortals. So what can a toss who commits to an 4 gate or goes robo tech do against me if I have can kill his min line? Are you assuming I cant scout and call "he's essentially dead" High templars? Yes, because all toss players RUSH for HT. It takes time. If you know how to get amulet back, please tell me so i know not to use phoenix anymore. Or did they become cybernetics core tech? Please, tell me. I would love to know. Zealot immortal is fine because you have one more base. What counters zealot immortal phoneix? Colossi < phoniex, Stalkers< immortals / zealots, zealots < +1 more base worth of zealots.
You would die vs a decent player. I dunno what order you're using, but I'm sure there are like 3 things that would prompt me to just run up your ramp with 1z 1s and plant 2 pylons there to warpin at 5:42 or so. Skipping a zeal, etc. You need to get a stalker unless you want my to scout your stargate and watch it warpin, and you also need warpgate. Anyone who opens hard 4 gate and waits to commit or transition will see what you are doing and commit to the kill.
Also, you have a valuable avenue for insight here in NrGMonk, don't waste the opportunity with sarcasm and disbelief.
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On November 22 2011 01:58 GoSuBlood wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 01:45 NrGmonk wrote:On November 22 2011 01:41 GoSuBlood wrote:
Well, after the 6 minute mark, I make a robo if i see dt's or I double expand. It works the same way mutas work, you cant stop him without losing your base. Going from robo/ 4 gate tech to high templars with storm takes SUCH a long time. Idk what game you're playing but toss cant switch tech without time. I usually open 2-3 gate and 1 stargate depending what i scout. I go double stargate and then i harass. I never really stop until i have around 10. Because A. They pick off sentrys, and zealot meat shields. B. 10 is enough energy to kill an entire probe line. But they need to be separated and scouting your opponent to make sure nothing is happening. As most would say, blink doesnt stop it, if anything you force them to blink to their main and then you kill their nat. If you scout an all in, your micro should be good enough to stop them, and pick up the zealots. And have around 3 sentrys by the time K-4 gate is done (5:30) so I'm fairly safe against 4 g. But its really about your micro, and transition. You can't spot dts at the 6 minute mark. You can't double expand at the 6 minute mark. Templar are for feedback, not storm. Why are you worried about korean 4 gate and getting sentries? Sentries suck versus korean 4 gate. You mean regular 4 gate. You need to play against better protoss players. You don't know how to scout Dt's? Thats sad.... I never said 6 minute mark did I? When did I say expand at 6 minutes? No, what the hell kind of reading skills do you have? You just assume double expand means 6 minutes? ALSO, IM GUESSING THAT FEEDBACK IS STILL CYB CORE? 10 gate, 1 chrono on nexus, isnt standard 4 gate. It warps in at 5:30. doesnt finish at 5:30. Standard 4 gate warps in at 5:45.
Describe your build order or post a replay, the burden of proof is on you now
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GoSuBlood ganna be GoSuGone in a moment. Cmon dude we provide free help on forums. Don't be such a downer.
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United States8476 Posts
On November 22 2011 01:58 GoSuBlood wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 01:45 NrGmonk wrote:On November 22 2011 01:41 GoSuBlood wrote:
Well, after the 6 minute mark, I make a robo if i see dt's or I double expand. It works the same way mutas work, you cant stop him without losing your base. Going from robo/ 4 gate tech to high templars with storm takes SUCH a long time. Idk what game you're playing but toss cant switch tech without time. I usually open 2-3 gate and 1 stargate depending what i scout. I go double stargate and then i harass. I never really stop until i have around 10. Because A. They pick off sentrys, and zealot meat shields. B. 10 is enough energy to kill an entire probe line. But they need to be separated and scouting your opponent to make sure nothing is happening. As most would say, blink doesnt stop it, if anything you force them to blink to their main and then you kill their nat. If you scout an all in, your micro should be good enough to stop them, and pick up the zealots. And have around 3 sentrys by the time K-4 gate is done (5:30) so I'm fairly safe against 4 g. But its really about your micro, and transition. You can't spot dts at the 6 minute mark. You can't double expand at the 6 minute mark. Templar are for feedback, not storm. Why are you worried about korean 4 gate and getting sentries? Sentries suck versus korean 4 gate. You mean regular 4 gate. You need to play against better protoss players. You don't know how to scout Dt's? Thats sad.... I never said 6 minute mark did I? When did I say expand at 6 minutes? No, what the hell kind of reading skills do you have? You just assume double expand means 6 minutes? ALSO, IM GUESSING THAT FEEDBACK IS STILL CYB CORE? 10 gate, 1 chrono on nexus, isnt standard 4 gate. It warps in at 5:30. doesnt finish at 5:30. Standard 4 gate warps in at 5:45.
"Well, after the 6 minute mark, I make a robo if i see dt's or I double expand. "
Most people would interpret that as "As the 6 minute mark passes, I make a robo if I see dts or else I double expand".
Sentries are not the way to counter korean 4 gate; they don't have the dps to kill the pylons in your base.
My templar comment only referred to the late game. I was only suggesting a third unit that can deter phoenix harass.
You can't make wild claims like you're making on this forum without proof.
Keep being rude like that and you'll be out of this forum in no time.
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Here's my idea for phoenix play, critique it:
9 pylon 12 gate 14 gas 16 pylon 16 core 17z(19) 22 stalker(24), cb warpgate only, drive out scout, drop assimilator and 2 more gates (3 total)... drop stargate when 150 gas, make 4 more probes (3 in each geyser, 18 mining) cb out 1st phoenix and send to opponent, prepare for expand... If money getting high, drop 4th gate... If you are safe to expand, drop nexus then 4th gate.
If opponent is doing anything retarded you can do 4gate within time, otherwise opponent should prepare with sentries and/or a fast immortal depending on build, which should put your gas income on par with his right? -100 or -200 for sentries, your gas is later than his, should equal out the 30 to 60 second difference in assimilator timing
Problems?
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I feel that phoenix play is risky mostly beacuse if your opponent scouts it in time and put down double stargate phoenix you have basicly lost.
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United States8476 Posts
On November 22 2011 02:28 OminouS wrote:
I feel that phoenix play is risky mostly beacuse if your opponent scouts it in time and put down double stargate phoenix you have basicly lost.
Not really realistic <.<
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On November 22 2011 02:29 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 02:28 OminouS wrote:
I feel that phoenix play is risky mostly beacuse if your opponent scouts it in time and put down double stargate phoenix you have basicly lost. Not really realistic <.<
I've done it a few times, works wonders. Of course if you can't get a scout in before let's say an observer it is usually to late.
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On November 22 2011 02:08 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 01:58 GoSuBlood wrote:On November 22 2011 01:45 NrGmonk wrote:On November 22 2011 01:41 GoSuBlood wrote:
Well, after the 6 minute mark, I make a robo if i see dt's or I double expand. It works the same way mutas work, you cant stop him without losing your base. Going from robo/ 4 gate tech to high templars with storm takes SUCH a long time. Idk what game you're playing but toss cant switch tech without time. I usually open 2-3 gate and 1 stargate depending what i scout. I go double stargate and then i harass. I never really stop until i have around 10. Because A. They pick off sentrys, and zealot meat shields. B. 10 is enough energy to kill an entire probe line. But they need to be separated and scouting your opponent to make sure nothing is happening. As most would say, blink doesnt stop it, if anything you force them to blink to their main and then you kill their nat. If you scout an all in, your micro should be good enough to stop them, and pick up the zealots. And have around 3 sentrys by the time K-4 gate is done (5:30) so I'm fairly safe against 4 g. But its really about your micro, and transition. You can't spot dts at the 6 minute mark. You can't double expand at the 6 minute mark. Templar are for feedback, not storm. Why are you worried about korean 4 gate and getting sentries? Sentries suck versus korean 4 gate. You mean regular 4 gate. You need to play against better protoss players. You don't know how to scout Dt's? Thats sad.... I never said 6 minute mark did I? When did I say expand at 6 minutes? No, what the hell kind of reading skills do you have? You just assume double expand means 6 minutes? ALSO, IM GUESSING THAT FEEDBACK IS STILL CYB CORE? 10 gate, 1 chrono on nexus, isnt standard 4 gate. It warps in at 5:30. doesnt finish at 5:30. Standard 4 gate warps in at 5:45. "Well, after the 6 minute mark, I make a robo if i see dt's or I double expand. " Most people would interpret that as "As the 6 minute mark passes, I make a robo if I see dts or else I double expand". Sentries are not the way to counter korean 4 gate; they don't have the dps to kill the pylons in your base. My templar comment only referred to the late game. I was only suggesting a third unit that can deter phoenix harass. You can't make wild claims like you're making on this forum without proof. Keep being rude like that and you'll be out of this forum in no time.
Sorry if i worded this improperly.
Sir, if i may suggest in the english language the word "after" is not the same as "at." Because of my choice of words, I understand this can be confusing. I didn't mean it as a specific timing, but i meant it as "what do I transition to, based on what i scout." That's what i thought all builds were based off of, sorry i didn't state that. I don't have the replays saved, but after I go home I'll play a few games and save a couple. Basically I would either make units, or expand if he expands. I stop phoenix production at around 10 (not sure if i said it.) It usually makes them lean away from colossus tech.
I regret you threatening me because I noticed you have a high number of posts, and may call someone to ban me. Seeing as the 4 gate era is fading, it's nice to suggest some other playstyles, instead of referring to the last year in PVP. The way I position my sentrys is so they're hold position, so a pylon cant be made. I have 2 sentrys and a zealot out at 5:30. Therefore, unless due to my own scrubbishness if i lose, its my fault, not the build.
I based it off an old TL thread from patch 1.2, when 4 gate was less nerfed. I do stop phoenix production, but am careful not to lose them. I'm sorry if the player i was against wasn't up to par with what you expect. He was a rank 20-25 master last season, but has been less active this season. He had 1100ish points. So he might suck by your standards. I'm not sure. I apologize if I caused you any problems. (The build I was referring to was http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193103)
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United States8476 Posts
On November 22 2011 02:24 tehemperorer wrote:
Here's my idea for phoenix play, critique it:
9 pylon 12 gate 14 gas 16 pylon 16 core 17z(19) 22 stalker(24), cb warpgate only, drive out scout, drop assimilator and 2 more gates (3 total)... drop stargate when 150 gas, make 4 more probes (3 in each geyser, 18 mining) cb out 1st phoenix and send to opponent, prepare for expand... If money getting high, drop 4th gate... If you are safe to expand, drop nexus then 4th gate.
If opponent is doing anything retarded you can do 4gate within time, otherwise opponent should prepare with sentries and/or a fast immortal depending on build, which should put your gas income on par with his right? -100 or -200 for sentries, your gas is later than his, should equal out the 30 to 60 second difference in assimilator timing
Problems?
The way you're describing it, I'm not sure if you can hold 4 gate. What units are you getting after your first stalker?
Also, 3 gate phoenix is much worse than 1 or 2 gate phoenix. By the time your phoenix get to your opponent's base, he'll have a decent amount of units to defend against phoenix harass.
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On November 22 2011 02:28 OminouS wrote:
I feel that phoenix play is risky mostly beacuse if your opponent scouts it in time and put down double stargate phoenix you have basicly lost.
Lol no.
1 base gives you exactly enough income to sustain chronoboosted phoenix off of 1 stargate. Getting 2 stargates on 1 base is a pure waste of money.
Also on a completely different topic, regarding that other poster who was talking about k4g. Do people really still do that ??? With the warpgate nerf I was under the impression that what we referred to as k4g was the 8 pylon 8 gate variant that hits at 5:00-5:100.
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On November 22 2011 02:31 OminouS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 02:29 NrGmonk wrote:On November 22 2011 02:28 OminouS wrote:
I feel that phoenix play is risky mostly beacuse if your opponent scouts it in time and put down double stargate phoenix you have basicly lost. Not really realistic <.< I've done it a few times, works wonders. Of course if you can't get a scout in before let's say an observer it is usually to late.
Besides it not being realistic, its also not even really viable off 1 base. All of your money will be in phoenix. So how do you plan on killing his buildings? (Which is how you win the game) The best way to expand vs phoenix, and in general to be safe, is to make cannons at your front. This will be even more true if you go double stargate on 1 base.
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On November 22 2011 02:36 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 02:24 tehemperorer wrote:
Here's my idea for phoenix play, critique it:
9 pylon 12 gate 14 gas 16 pylon 16 core 17z(19) 22 stalker(24), cb warpgate only, drive out scout, drop assimilator and 2 more gates (3 total)... drop stargate when 150 gas, make 4 more probes (3 in each geyser, 18 mining) cb out 1st phoenix and send to opponent, prepare for expand... If money getting high, drop 4th gate... If you are safe to expand, drop nexus then 4th gate.
If opponent is doing anything retarded you can do 4gate within time, otherwise opponent should prepare with sentries and/or a fast immortal depending on build, which should put your gas income on par with his right? -100 or -200 for sentries, your gas is later than his, should equal out the 30 to 60 second difference in assimilator timing
Problems? The way you're describing it, I'm not sure if you can hold 4 gate. What units are you getting after your first stalker? Also, 3 gate phoenix is much worse than 1 or 2 gate phoenix. By the time your phoenix get to your opponent's base, he'll have a decent amount of units to defend against phoenix harass.
It is meant to be (read: it is a hard 4gate) a hard 4gate unless you scout that your opponent is doing something other than the same 4gate. Instead of dropping 3 more gates once scout is gone, you do gas gate gate then a stargate after 150 gas. Get 1 sentry and be ready to cb the first phoenix.
That being said, your comment made me realize it is pretty inefficient and can be bo countered, so I'm done with the theory part. Scrap it.
How you usually do phoenix?
Also, isn't a good response to pheonix a nexus and 2 cannons (main n nat)?
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On November 22 2011 02:39 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 02:28 OminouS wrote:
I feel that phoenix play is risky mostly beacuse if your opponent scouts it in time and put down double stargate phoenix you have basicly lost. Lol no. 1 base gives you exactly enough income to sustain chronoboosted phoenix off of 1 stargate. Getting 2 stargates on 1 base is a pure waste of money. Also on a completely different topic, regarding that other poster who was talking about k4g. Do people really still do that ??? With the warpgate nerf I was under the impression that what we referred to as k4g was the 8 pylon 8 gate variant that hits at 5:00-5:100.
O_o I wasnt talking about that one.. I was talking about this one (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Korean_4_Warpgate_All_In_%28vs._Protoss%29) which is listed as 10 pylon 10 gate. I didnt even know there was a 8/8 varient. Seems stupid IMO
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On November 22 2011 02:44 GoSuBlood wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 02:39 Geiko wrote:On November 22 2011 02:28 OminouS wrote:
I feel that phoenix play is risky mostly beacuse if your opponent scouts it in time and put down double stargate phoenix you have basicly lost. Lol no. 1 base gives you exactly enough income to sustain chronoboosted phoenix off of 1 stargate. Getting 2 stargates on 1 base is a pure waste of money. Also on a completely different topic, regarding that other poster who was talking about k4g. Do people really still do that ??? With the warpgate nerf I was under the impression that what we referred to as k4g was the 8 pylon 8 gate variant that hits at 5:00-5:100. O_o I wasnt talking about that one.. I was talking about this one (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Korean_4_Warpgate_All_In_%28vs._Protoss%29) which is listed as 10 pylon 10 gate. I didnt even know there was a 8/8 varient. Seems stupid IMO
That build is soooo out of date ^^ I am pretty sure no one does this anymore. Don't believe everything liquipedia tells you.
The 8/8 one is the only one even slightly viable nowadays.
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EPT
