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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
On the other hand, if you do a standard build and then drop a stargate after 3 gateways, the stargate comes up really late and you wont have your first phoenix out until almost 7 minutes. Again, I find a single stargate at 7 minutes loses to a basic blink build, as you dont have enough phoenix to really help in a fight against mass stalker. TLDR: I have temporarily given up on phoenix and am toying with some other pvp builds instead. I am sure it is just me doing it wrong ofcourse. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On November 24 2011 10:26 hzflank wrote: So I have not been able to get really fast phoenix play to work. To hold a 4 gate with a fast phoenix build you need to do a build that is not at all economic. Since the earliest you can write off a likely 4 gate is around 3:30 you end up with a bad build vs anyone who just goes straight into blink play. And since my build was obviously not going to be a 4 gate the opponent does not even need to make sentries, so they get a lot of stalkers very quickly with a 3 gate blink build. On the other hand, if you do a standard build and then drop a stargate after 3 gateways, the stargate comes up really late and you wont have your first phoenix out until almost 7 minutes. Again, I find a single stargate at 7 minutes loses to a basic blink build, as you dont have enough phoenix to really help in a fight against mass stalker. TLDR: I have temporarily given up on phoenix and am toying with some other pvp builds instead. I am sure it is just me doing it wrong ofcourse. I have a build that gets relatively fast phoenix with 2 gates and it holds off a 4 gate. However, if you're not comfortable with such getting phoenix so early, then only get them when you can for sure rule out 4 gate. The only 2 builds my phoenix build has trouble with is 1-3 gate expand into cannons for defense and dedicated blink allins. | ||
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Geiko
France1959 Posts
On November 24 2011 10:26 hzflank wrote: So I have not been able to get really fast phoenix play to work. To hold a 4 gate with a fast phoenix build you need to do a build that is not at all economic. Since the earliest you can write off a likely 4 gate is around 3:30 you end up with a bad build vs anyone who just goes straight into blink play. And since my build was obviously not going to be a 4 gate the opponent does not even need to make sentries, so they get a lot of stalkers very quickly with a 3 gate blink build. On the other hand, if you do a standard build and then drop a stargate after 3 gateways, the stargate comes up really late and you wont have your first phoenix out until almost 7 minutes. Again, I find a single stargate at 7 minutes loses to a basic blink build, as you dont have enough phoenix to really help in a fight against mass stalker. TLDR: I have temporarily given up on phoenix and am toying with some other pvp builds instead. I am sure it is just me doing it wrong ofcourse. Check out my defensive 3 gate guide. Now instead of getting a third gate, you get more probes and you drop a stargte at 5:30. You'rr all set to go for good 4 gate-safe phoenix play. | ||
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GomJabbar
United States161 Posts
I've defeated blink openings doing this build with a fast enough robo, but I've had other games where the robo isn't fast enough and blink kills me. So I'd love to get a better idea of timings and responses. | ||
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Geiko
France1959 Posts
On November 25 2011 03:18 GomJabbar wrote: I recently started trying axslav's stargate opening. So far I am just going into Phoenix immortal off 1 base for an all in that seems really strong. I have a couple questions though. What should influence my decision to expand or all-in, and when should I be planning to expo? When should I get my robo (what timing) based on what I scout? I've been sending my first Phoenix to scout his base; should I wait to show my phoenixes until later? I've defeated blink openings doing this build with a fast enough robo, but I've had other games where the robo isn't fast enough and blink kills me. So I'd love to get a better idea of timings and responses. You should never place robo blindly in my opinion. You place robo or not based on what you scout so the robo timing is always when you scout with your first phoenixes. I like to go with 2 phoenix because if you wait for 3 you can die to DTs, and with 2 you can kill 2 probes if your opponent isn't being aggressive. -Against robo expands you can expand and harass with phoenix. -Against pure blink you'll want to save energy to defend and wait for immortals to expand. -Against DT expand you expand as soon as you have an obs and harass with phoenix in the mean while -Against 1 base colossus you add 2 gates and go all in -Against Robo Twilight I like to all in with 4 gates as well as you'll have an army advantage but you can also get a robo and immortal expand. It's tricky though because he can expand much sooner so you always have to keep track of his army or be active with your phoenixes to know exactly when he is getting his expand. Get your expand as soon as he expands, or as soon as you have an immortal out. -Against 1-3 gate expo ... Well good luck coming back. If he is smart he'll get gateway unit heavy and you'll be basically screwed. If he's not and he's rushing to robo tech with immortals, then you can harass like crazy and expand. If he is getting stalkers, I just try to all in and hope he overprobed or i get a good engagement. -Against Fast Blink FE, you have a significant army advantage but you still need very good phoenix control to bust down your ramp and get your expo as fast as you can. Or you can all-in but it's not autowin, depends on his expo timing. That's what I'm doing right now at least from my ladder experience. Would love some comments on this. | ||
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ZeGeR
Sweden30 Posts
On November 25 2011 03:46 Geiko wrote: You should never place robo blindly in my opinion. You place robo or not based on what you scout so the robo timing is always when you scout with your first phoenixes. I like to go with 2 phoenix because if you wait for 3 you can die to DTs, and with 2 you can kill 2 probes if your opponent isn't being aggressive. -Against robo expands you can expand and harass with phoenix. -Against pure blink you'll want to save energy to defend and wait for immortals to expand. -Against DT expand you expand as soon as you have an obs and harass with phoenix in the mean while -Against 1 base colossus you add 2 gates and go all in -Against Robo Twilight I like to all in with 4 gates as well as you'll have an army advantage but you can also get a robo and immortal expand. It's tricky though because he can expand much sooner so you always have to keep track of his army or be active with your phoenixes to know exactly when he is getting his expand. Get your expand as soon as he expands, or as soon as you have an immortal out. -Against 1-3 gate expo ... Well good luck coming back. If he is smart he'll get gateway unit heavy and you'll be basically screwed. If he's not and he's rushing to robo tech with immortals, then you can harass like crazy and expand. If he is getting stalkers, I just try to all in and hope he overprobed or i get a good engagement. -Against Fast Blink FE, you have a significant army advantage but you still need very good phoenix control to bust down your ramp and get your expo as fast as you can. Or you can all-in but it's not autowin, depends on his expo timing. That's what I'm doing right now at least from my ladder experience. Would love some comments on this. Do you have any replay were you go against a 1 base colossus? I really want to see the way you engage that! =) Also, I'm wondering, is it okey to open up with a 3 stalker rush into phoenix play? I was thinking that if he goes for a 1-3 gate expo, you could punish it that way and maybe just 4 gate him instead or something. What do you think? | ||
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Geiko
France1959 Posts
On November 25 2011 05:24 ZeGeR wrote: Do you have any replay were you go against a 1 base colossus? I really want to see the way you engage that! =) Also, I'm wondering, is it okey to open up with a 3 stalker rush into phoenix play? I was thinking that if he goes for a 1-3 gate expo, you could punish it that way and maybe just 4 gate him instead or something. What do you think? Lol I looked for one but I actually don't. No one in their right mind makes colossi when they see phoenix. Actually I have this funny replay of a guy going robo -> robo bay -> nexus -> twilight -> blink -> forge -> 2 x cannon in mineral line -> 1 colossus . But I don't think that this replays proves anything :D (actually it proves that people still don't know how to deal with phoenix, even decent master players. (rank 500 according to SC2rank) ). I don't think I've ever done a 3 stalker rush in my life because I don't like this kind of opening. So I have no clue if there are safe 2 gate builds out there that start with 3 stalkers. | ||
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ZeGeR
Sweden30 Posts
On November 25 2011 05:43 Geiko wrote: Lol I looked for one but I actually don't. No one in their right mind makes colossi when they see phoenix. Actually I have this funny replay of a guy going robo -> robo bay -> nexus -> twilight -> blink -> forge -> 2 x cannon in mineral line -> 1 colossus . But I don't think that this replays proves anything :D (actually it proves that people still don't know how to deal with phoenix, even decent master players. (rank 500 according to SC2rank) ). I don't think I've ever done a 3 stalker rush in my life because I don't like this kind of opening. So I have no clue if there are safe 2 gate builds out there that start with 3 stalkers. I played another game recently where I went for phoenix against a fast colossi. This time, I took your advice to heart and made sure I had proper phoenix macro. This way, I could actually get twice the amount of phoenix, and then I supported it with mostly zealots. I lost horribly once again, but maybe that's becuase I don't know how to micro the engagement. Do you focus down the colossi with the phoenixes, or do you pick up zealot/sentries? Becuase now I just attacked the colossus with my phoenixes, and it went completely horrible. Some people here discussed the priorities for phoenix to attack, but noone included colossus. I really want to learn how to fight this, becuase I love playing with phoenix against all other builds. I like having that map control. | ||
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jakek95
United Kingdom351 Posts
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Nihonjin
66 Posts
I do agree its hard to stop a good 4-gate with phoenix, but every build has weakness and counters. | ||
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FLiP491
United States124 Posts
I find that pretty dumb but it's kind of how the matchup is now... phx hard counters collosi, just micro a bit and focus down the col(it dies quick enough) although if you can pick off a gs sentry that's nice too... but yeah, axslav's list is dead on, and for that reason I generally swing by the choke upon revealing my phx (reveal at 3) as players tend to pull only stalkers in response to seeing the phx.. oh, and while lifting stalkers in general is bad, it is nice to pick them off here and there in groups of 1-2 when you can, as they're so expensive to your opponent to produce, and obviously the mobile aa... | ||
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chipman
United States139 Posts
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On November 28 2011 14:00 chipman wrote: Fast blink can bypass the ramp and just kill you for having fewer units, one or some of which being (at that point) worthless sentries. The pheonix energy will be low and they cost more than stalkers, so the longer an early engagement goes on vs blink, the more the fight should favor the blink build because you'll have blink stalkers vs gateway units with no upgrades or utility of any kind and pheonix which just kinda, at best, absorb damage. What are you refering to? In general I would say you are right, if the phoenix player gets only phoenix stocks minerals and uses all his energy to lift probes. Guess what you should avoid then... Phoenix I think is the best opening out there, but you shouldn't get a million, more like 4-5 (replace lost ones) and get a robo after your first phoenix unless you see robo play, then you can expand. DTs - ... please, I scout your base with a phoenix and see twilight so I'll get a robo Blink Stalker - Fast Robo, gonna have my second immortal and a few zealots+Stalkers, wanna blink into my Zealots? Immortals - G_G I lift your 3 Immortals and have one or two myself + superior production due to my expansion I can get safely since I keep you in your base. Colossi - This is a bit tricky, Immortals + WP and an expansion can help though You expand? - I expand and harras! In a gateway+immortals vs gateway+ immortals + phoenix fight you want to focus your ground on his stalkers and kill the zealots asap with your phoenix (If he goes immortals you can have 6 or 7 at a time imo) lifted Zeals don't get targeted by Immortals  I haven't played too too much with this style but I am planning on doing so. I do a lot of thinking and observing though and I am 100% sure that Phoenix is the way to go since I have seen it beat every strategy on high level and I could justify every single win with the safety of this build. It requires a lot of multitasking and crisp macro + prefect game sense to figure out when exactly to expand. So Phoenix can be pretty hard but I think is always worth it. GL P.S. Does anyone have a replay of masters or GM phoenix vs phoenix? I would love to see what happens then. So far I Pros seem to have a treaty that allows only one player to go for phoenx :D | ||
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ZeGeR
Sweden30 Posts
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dnld12
United States324 Posts
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willyallthewei
United States265 Posts
Phoenix immortal zealot straight crushes any blink stalker/blink robo compositions (in a straight fight). I think its only bad vs. zealot archon in the open field if you over produce on immortals. Per 2 supply, phoenix does 18 dps vs. light, I believe something like 21 with plus one air upgrades. Compare that to the almighty hydra, which does roughly 15 damage per 2 supply and has less than half the health. Phoenix is one of the most damaging units in the game. They are so freaking goood. you can't go wrong with them. It is one of the only buidls thats literally strong against everything if you know when to add the robo. I honestly think that all three matchups for Protoss will be phoenix dominated very soon. In PvT, look out for the 1gate expand --> 3 gate stargate --> double forge builds that I am sure are coming soon. Wrap ur head around this fun fact --> phoenix vs. STIMMED marines actually ends up with both units doing almost equal dps to each other. This mostly holds true as both units get upgraded with attack/armor and does not factor in the guardian shield that might be protecting the phoenix. I'm not even kidding, look up the numbers. As MC would say - "phoenix imba" | ||
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chipman
United States139 Posts
The only reason you guys think it's so good is because right now the other popular meta safe build is twilight robo observer blink, which comes considerably later and lets you counter it when scouted, and also comes with fewer units due to the price of safety/utility in the form of robo+obs. There is also like double the pheonix energy by then as well as time to get out an immortal and more zealots to tank for your army/immortal. If it gets to a point where every other guy I face is going pheonix opening, I might open with ultra fast blink build every game and weigh from reads whether or not to bother with a robo+obs and just win. Also, you don't blink ontop of an immortal-less army with fast blink and allow maximal zealot dps, you get one on the ramp, blink it immediately onto the cliff to the side with the most open space, and blink the rest of your stalkers in and immediately start kiting, focusing stalkers if you can, otherwise zealots as the pheonix become dead weight quickly and serve their purpose if they get attacked when energyless. So you'll quickly have 3 gate blink stalker vs normal zealots, effectively. If the pheonix player gets a robo, their army just dies, the immortal comes out, it dies with minimal support, even worse result. Don't tell me you guys don't die to this, 4 gate, and hidden council/Dshrine when they're performed right. If that were the case I'd see the build on the ladder much more often and lose to it more often as well. | ||
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willyallthewei
United States265 Posts
On November 29 2011 05:48 chipman wrote: Fast twilight blink builds should counter pheonix play. You're not going to scout a roboless blink build with a phoenix, throw down a robo, cboost out an immortal before they're attacking at the base of your ramp. You're going to have invested money into a then worthless sentry, some stalkers of your own which can't blink, a round of zealots, and have 2-3 pheonix with enough energy for a handfull of lifts at best, even if they don't waste energy lifting probes. If you get a robo vs the faster blink build, it's wasted minerals that could have potentially been cboosted zealots/stalkers. The only reason you guys think it's so good is because right now the other popular meta safe build is twilight robo observer blink, which comes considerably later and lets you counter it when scouted, and also comes with fewer units due to the price of safety/utility in the form of robo+obs. There is also like double the pheonix energy by then as well as time to get out an immortal and more zealots to tank for your army/immortal. If it gets to a point where every other guy I face is going pheonix opening, I might open with ultra fast blink build every game and weigh from reads whether or not to bother with a robo+obs and just win. Also, you don't blink ontop of an immortal-less army with fast blink and allow maximal zealot dps, you get one on the ramp, blink it immediately onto the cliff to the side with the most open space, and blink the rest of your stalkers in and immediately start kiting, focusing stalkers if you can, otherwise zealots as the pheonix become dead weight quickly and serve their purpose if they get attacked when energyless. So you'll quickly have 3 gate blink stalker vs normal zealots, effectively. If the pheonix player gets a robo, their army just dies, the immortal comes out, it dies with minimal support, even worse result. Don't tell me you guys don't die to this, 4 gate, and hidden council/Dshrine when they're performed right. If that were the case I'd see the build on the ladder much more often and lose to it more often as well. #1.) If you guess that someone goes stargate and rush for blink hard off 1 gate, you are gambling because a pressure style 3/4gate stargate can actually kill you because you rushed to blink before getting out a critical stalker count. This is simply because your additional gates come up later than the stargate player and your sentry will be gravitoned to prevent any FFs on the ramp. If you warp in additional sentries, you've just lost your timing due to gas cost. #2 - if a stargate player senses a blink all in, he's not going to just let you walk your stalkers up his ramp, he's going to use his sentry or sentries to FF the bottom of your ramp before you get vision, and he's going to buy time for his immortals to pop. This is the main reason for stargate dominance after 1.4, because you can't get the vision necessary to blink/warp units up. #3.) A lot of players blindly go 2 gate --> stargate --> robo. It is pretty solid against just about any build and in such a case your all in will also fail, and so will DTs. #4.) Hidden dts are nice, except a smart player is going to ask "where's the gas?" if they remembered your fast 2nd gas before your first stalker popped and see none of it showing in your unit count or tech. He will immediately check for a hidden expo or hidden tech, and build a robo just to be safe. | ||
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ZeGeR
Sweden30 Posts
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On November 30 2011 00:06 ZeGeR wrote: Can't anyone anwser my question? If you open phoenix vs a guy who opens colossus, how should you engage? Focus colossus or lift zealot/sentries? You should engage in an open area and kill sentries with guardian shield and zealots IMO. the DPS vs light is just too amazing to let it go to waste, also once you lift a Unit you take out 100% of the DPS instantly. I think you should harras a lot and have a huge advantage, either forcing a push with only one Colossus that won't bother you too much on an open area or outproduce your opponent hard since he has so few stalkers to defend against your Harras. have 5 Phoenix and focus the Colossus with your Stalkers. (5 Phoenix lift and 2 shot a Zealot) Try to kill zealots or sentries while harassing rather than probes. Priorities: Keep Phoenix alive > Kill Sentry > Kill Zealot > Kill Gas Probe > Kill stray Probe > Kill Mineral Probe > Damage Colossus > Kill Stalker (killing a Stalker most of the time kills a Phoenix and no Stalker) I really think what you do before the fight is more important than what you do in the fight. great Harass and good Positioning are key. If you have a Robo you can snipe his observer and maybe flank him unsuspectedly? | ||
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