EPT
[D] PvP Phoenix Play - Page 9
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Iridium
Sweden90 Posts
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ZeGeR
Sweden30 Posts
On November 30 2011 00:21 rEalGuapo wrote: You should engage in an open area and kill sentries with guardian shield and zealots IMO. the DPS vs light is just too amazing to let it go to waste, also once you lift a Unit you take out 100% of the DPS instantly. I think you should harras a lot and have a huge advantage, either forcing a push with only one Colossus that won't bother you too much on an open area or outproduce your opponent hard since he has so few stalkers to defend against your Harras. have 5 Phoenix and focus the Colossus with your Stalkers. (5 Phoenix lift and 2 shot a Zealot) Try to kill zealots or sentries while harassing rather than probes. Priorities: Keep Phoenix alive > Kill Sentry > Kill Zealot > Kill Gas Probe > Kill stray Probe > Kill Mineral Probe > Damage Colossus > Kill Stalker (killing a Stalker most of the time kills a Phoenix and no Stalker) I really think what you do before the fight is more important than what you do in the fight. great Harass and good Positioning are key. If you have a Robo you can snipe his observer and maybe flank him unsuspectedly? Thanks a lot. That was a great anwser. Just wondering, do you have a replay that I could look at perhaps? Would be a great addition. But I think I understand better how to go about it. Now that I think of it, it usually takes a lot of gas early on to get robo bay/thermal lance and colossus, so that should mean less stalkers and more zealots to pick of for free. =) I'll try it out! | ||
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eugalp
United States203 Posts
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matrius
100 Posts
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eugalp
United States203 Posts
On November 30 2011 03:55 matrius wrote: Still working this out myself, but good transitions so far look like immortal/colossi, get some sentries if they go charglot. If they make a lot of stalkers, get 2 robo bays and pump both immortals and colossi. Not bad, but I think they will have archons (which are already good against phoenix). Especially if they go for chargelots. | ||
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Xujhan
Canada65 Posts
On November 30 2011 01:58 eugalp wrote: What if he just turtles (makes forge/cannons in min line and then expands)? Are there any good transitions into late game after a phoenix opening? Absolutely. You should be expanding early with a phoenix opening anyway (unless you're playing an allin variant, in which case it's a moot point) since your phoenixes give you complete map control and excellent scouting. Typically you'll want to transition into Zealot/Archon, with or without Immortals as appropriate for your opponent's unit composition. One added bonus of this transition is that it gives you DTs, which are terrifying when paired with Phoenixes (since their observers will die very, very quickly). | ||
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Sveet
United States86 Posts
I tend to think of pvp tech routes as somewhat of a rock-paper-scissors relationship. Robo beats Twilight beats Stargate beats Robo. Immortals beat stalkers (blink), collosus beat zealots (charge) and obs reveal dts. Blink is basically the defensive counter to the air mobility of phoenix. Phoenix can lift immortals out of the battle and they tear through collosus (if they have collosus they won't have much gas for anything else) This is a really basic view, but its a good starting view point. In the early and mid game, when engagements generally are to get a lead rather than win, mobility is the best thing to have; this is why the observer blink build was so successful. The power of the phoenix is that they are the ultimate poking unit. They can lift any straggler units and kill them quickly (usually). This is usually probes in PvP. Usually a good counter to heavy harassment style units is to just walk to the front door and knock it down. The phoenix come in handy here allowing you to lift the most powerful units while your 3 gate army takes care of the rest. Basically you can hold any push as long as you play it right or harass effectively to get a lead. I think the real counter to phoenix is to take an earlier expansion without tech. | ||
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ChewyCoyote
3 Posts
Because of Grubby's sick micro he got from WC3 he always came out on top when it came to small engagements...and i think he won a good percentage of those pvp's with a phoenix build. Not to mention it looked like it was a lot more fun and interesting than the usual 4gate vs. 4gate play. | ||
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Xujhan
Canada65 Posts
On November 29 2011 05:48 chipman wrote: Fast twilight blink builds should counter pheonix play. You're not going to scout a roboless blink build with a phoenix, throw down a robo, cboost out an immortal before they're attacking at the base of your ramp. You're going to have invested money into a then worthless sentry, some stalkers of your own which can't blink, a round of zealots, and have 2-3 pheonix with enough energy for a handfull of lifts at best, even if they don't waste energy lifting probes. If you get a robo vs the faster blink build, it's wasted minerals that could have potentially been cboosted zealots/stalkers. The only reason you guys think it's so good is because right now the other popular meta safe build is twilight robo observer blink, which comes considerably later and lets you counter it when scouted, and also comes with fewer units due to the price of safety/utility in the form of robo+obs. There is also like double the pheonix energy by then as well as time to get out an immortal and more zealots to tank for your army/immortal. If it gets to a point where every other guy I face is going pheonix opening, I might open with ultra fast blink build every game and weigh from reads whether or not to bother with a robo+obs and just win. Also, you don't blink ontop of an immortal-less army with fast blink and allow maximal zealot dps, you get one on the ramp, blink it immediately onto the cliff to the side with the most open space, and blink the rest of your stalkers in and immediately start kiting, focusing stalkers if you can, otherwise zealots as the pheonix become dead weight quickly and serve their purpose if they get attacked when energyless. So you'll quickly have 3 gate blink stalker vs normal zealots, effectively. If the pheonix player gets a robo, their army just dies, the immortal comes out, it dies with minimal support, even worse result. Don't tell me you guys don't die to this, 4 gate, and hidden council/Dshrine when they're performed right. If that were the case I'd see the build on the ladder much more often and lose to it more often as well. Some days I understand why IdrA is willing to get banned for flaming forum posts. In my experience, as a mid-Masters 'toss (so those better than me can take this for what it's worth) everything you've just said is wrong. Simply put, if you go for aggressive fast blink with no robo, a competent Phoenix player will beat you 100% of the time. That "worthless sentry" stops your attack cold, since you can't force vision past a correctly-placed forcefield and a Phoenix build will have more than enough gas available to keep that forcefield up indefinitely. So, in actuality, you'll quickly have 3gate blink stalker vs the bottom of a ramp with absolutely nothing to shoot at, while your probes are learning how to fly. And I hate to tell you this, but I've never lost to a fast blink timing, or a 4gate, or a DT rush playing Axslav's phoenix build (as a clarification; I've been playing it for 3 weeks, about 40 PvPs or so). Phoenix builds aren't unbeatable by any means, but the only reliable way to beat them is in real macro games, not with gimmicky allins. | ||
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unit
United States2621 Posts
On November 30 2011 15:58 Xujhan wrote: Some days I understand why IdrA is willing to get banned for flaming forum posts. In my experience, as a mid-Masters 'toss (so those better than me can take this for what it's worth) everything you've just said is wrong. Simply put, if you go for aggressive fast blink with no robo, a competent Phoenix player will beat you 100% of the time. That "worthless sentry" stops your attack cold, since you can't force vision past a correctly-placed forcefield and a Phoenix build will have more than enough gas available to keep that forcefield up indefinitely. So, in actuality, you'll quickly have 3gate blink stalker vs the bottom of a ramp with absolutely nothing to shoot at, while your probes are learning how to fly. And I hate to tell you this, but I've never lost to a fast blink timing, or a 4gate, or a DT rush playing Axslav's phoenix build (as a clarification; I've been playing it for 3 weeks, about 40 PvPs or so). Phoenix builds aren't unbeatable by any means, but the only reliable way to beat them is in real macro games, not with gimmicky allins. hey, what's axslav's phoenix build? ive been looking for a fun PvP style recently and this sounds like it might be it | ||
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Xujhan
Canada65 Posts
On November 30 2011 17:13 unit wrote: hey, what's axslav's phoenix build? ive been looking for a fun PvP style recently and this sounds like it might be it I'm actually planning to write a proper guide if I have the time in the next week or two, but the general look is to open Gate - Gas - Core - Gas - Stargate - Gate - Robo. You want to chrono Zealot, Stalker, Stalker, Sentry, Sentry from your first gateway to hold early aggression, and start your robo when your second or third phoenix is building (or skip it entirely, if your opponent opened fast expand or stargate). That sets you up safely against basically all builds. Don't allin; use your map control to expand and upgrade aggressively, and aim for a strong non-Colossus composition. A mix of zealots, archons, DTs and immortals is really potent, especially in conjunction with phoenixes. Once you have the advantage (usually through harassing and out-expanding your opponent) a Mothership makes for a good killing blow. I really can't reccommend the build enough. It's solid, it gives you huge numbers to opportunities to outplay your opponent, and it's just friggin' fun. Within a dozen games of picking it up I jumped from having ~50% in PvP (with a 1-gas robo expand) and not liking the matchup to having ~80% and loving it. I'd say that the only real downside is that the phoenix mirror is incredibly volatile, but fortunately it's also still very rare. In 40 mid-master games or so I've only seen it twice. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
Or is it just a matter of scouting ? You suspect an agressive 4-gate and you go for another build ? | ||
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ZeGeR
Sweden30 Posts
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ohokurwrong
Brazil283 Posts
whats great about a pheonix timing attack is that if you do NOT reveal the pheonix till the last moment and 1hit the sentrys u can bust his ramp. also if he went robo (this is the only build its good vs) then he can have his immortals lifted negating the effect of those immortals while soaking damage from stalkers which take a good amount of hits to kill since they are light | ||
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AdroiT
United States77 Posts
On November 30 2011 19:30 Nyast wrote: But does your build hold an agressive 4-gate ? When his probe is going to run up your ramp, you'll only have a zealot and 2 stalkers, how do you prevent the pylons at the bottom and in your main from going up with such low dps, especially considering you also need to fight his zealot and stalker ? Or is it just a matter of scouting ? You suspect an agressive 4-gate and you go for another build ? Yes. I actually just go stalker stalker sentry sentry. If you think they are going for a hardcore 4 gate, I will also add a second gateway before stargate to make sure I have a good sentry count. With 5-6 sentries you can force field the ramp indefinitely. While force fielding the ramp your units will have range to shoot down any pylons that could warp up units. If he builds a pylon beyond that range, you can just go kill it once he is forced to back away. You do need to be careful about a probe walking up your ramp and building pylons or sneaking in an hiding one. | ||
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Ada
Germany150 Posts
On November 29 2011 04:57 willyallthewei wrote: Wrap ur head around this fun fact --> phoenix vs. STIMMED marines actually ends up with both units doing almost equal dps to each other. This mostly holds true as both units get upgraded with attack/armor and does not factor in the guardian shield that might be protecting the phoenix. I'm not even kidding, look up the numbers. Pure number theory crafting, doesn't work in real game. | ||
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krowe
United States184 Posts
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On November 30 2011 19:30 Nyast wrote: But does your build hold an agressive 4-gate ? When his probe is going to run up your ramp, you'll only have a zealot and 2 stalkers, how do you prevent the pylons at the bottom and in your main from going up with such low dps, especially considering you also need to fight his zealot and stalker ? Or is it just a matter of scouting ? You suspect an agressive 4-gate and you go for another build ? The zealot-stalker-stalker-sentry-sentry build: I have never tried this, but I guess its a good way to spend minerals early on while spending less gas on ranged units. However, as axslav's phoenix build guide said, you don't go for something like this if you scout 4 gate or even suspect one. Proxy in your main is just death if you don't deny the probe or scout it on time. What you would do is, chrono a zealot out, then stat chonoing out the 1st and 2nd sentry while getting the 2nd gate. Getting up to 4 sentries with proper FF: blocks 4 gate attempt for infinite time, or at least for a long time before you can react correctly. Though remember: You do have to warp in more units after this, but if you're still willing to go phoenix you need to warp in more zealots because of gas. Phoenix builds are really heavy on gas. On November 30 2011 19:41 ZeGeR wrote: I can't agree that phoenixes tears through colossi. I've lost all games vs colossi with this build. In general, I always lose vs colossi no matter what build I go for. I don't wanna do colossus vs colossus games, because that's so boring, but often it seems like it's pretty much the only way. I also never know when to expand in pvp. Usually I wait for the opponent to expand and attack right then as he'll be having 400 minerals less in army. It's a shame, because I really like phoenix play, but I can't beat colossi with it. How do you know when to expand if you play with phoenix? Once you scout colossi, you would want to make void rays instead of more phoenixes. Void rays do more damage (especially when charged) and colossi does nothing against the void rays. Make sure that phoenixes and void rays target colossi if your opponent pushes out though; colossi = can change the game in PvP. Also, that's how I usually play PvP: attack when opponent expands. However, if I know that I have enough units to hold off his counter (if he scouts my nexus) then I expand. Phoenixes should still move around the map scouting for unit positions and other stuff, but you really should start saving up energy on the phoenixes. If you harass too much, you won't have energy to lift off enough units when your opponent pushes out after seeing the Nexus. | ||
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mattdevils
Canada20 Posts
The only problem is once they gain popularity so to will fast dt builds and then the whole match up will be hugely coin flippy. Honestly though in my experience phoenix is the strongest rout in p v p right now. | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On December 01 2011 02:21 mattdevils wrote: phoenix builds out right defeat any 1 base Robo build. And harassing a toss's gas even slightly in the early game can give you a huge advantage. Its easy to transition into a robo and an expand because you know exactly where your opponent's army is and what unit comp they have at all times. The only problem is once they gain popularity so to will fast dt builds and then the whole match up will be hugely coin flippy. Honestly though in my experience phoenix is the strongest rout in p v p right now. Scout with first phoenix and dt's aren't a problem (I need to check the timing on DTs and the phoenix times, with 2 gate stargate and with 1 gate stargate). This does bring up a problem: you can't harass as much because all of his stalkers will be staying in the mineral line, but just peeking in and acting like you're going to get a probe itself pressures the protoss army. If there's a gap, take one probe and then pull back. Phoenixes are needed if the protoss army does not put down the forge and decides to push out with mass units. Also to never overuse the energy if you see the push coming, as you REALLY need to lift off enemy units in order to compensate for the eco that you put into phoenix play. Else they're just paper plane flying in the air, waiting to be shot down by stalkers. Honestly though, going phoenix is good and all, but players need to realize that harassment is just extra thing that they get if the protoss's army is out of position. Though harassing and delaying protoss's push is important, you need to scout with the phoenix while you're harassing. What happens if your opponent's army pushes out while you're harassing? Your phoenixes are out of position to support your army, in which case your opponent can just win the battle (unless your opponent was too busy piling up units and not making obs for higher ground or something) because of the army difference. You need to constantly check where your opponent's units are, what his unit composition is, and when he's moving out/expanding. Because losing 25 probes is better than losing your whole army and losing the game. (Whoops was only going to respond to DT thing, but I guess I went too far ^^*. Overlaps with some things that you already stated) Then again when was PvP never a coinflip? | ||
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