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Often spoken is that Phoenix builds are the future of PvP. However, I find this hard to believe, because a mineral line harass can be shutdown with a few photon cannons (pheonixes can't hit ground, so taking losses for a few probes is no longer worth it) and it can be hard countered with blink stalkers which are very popular now a days. Against collosi, they are not very powerful, and pickng up stalkers off the ground in battle doesn't seem very cost efficient as they cost more than stalkers (so putting both of them out of commission for a moment actually puts you behind). The only real counter that I can think of is against immortals--- having 4 pheonixes take 4 immortals out of the battle is HUGE. However, I imagine one who sees phoenixes on the board will seize to construct immortals.
Besides this, so many people say phoenixes are very powerful PvP.
A few questions -
1.) Am I wrong about what I said above? Is there something powerful about a phoenix build that I am missing? Map Control perhaps? Can they help secure a fast expansion with their harass?
2.) Is there a popular phoenix build PvP that a pro has posted and the community has approved of? From my research and searching, it seems these builds are still being hammered out and no one has perfected a great build yet.
3.) Are void rays a key part of these builds as well? I imagine that immortals might be important in these builds as well to control stalkers.
Interested to hear your opinions on this type of PvP play
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The strength of phoenix builds is that you have complete information in a matchup that is defined by reacting to limited information. That's basically all there is to it. With appropriate knowledge of correct responses, you can theoretically react perfectly to everything.
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On November 16 2011 21:16 Dhalphir wrote:
The strength of phoenix builds is that you have complete information in a matchup that is defined by reacting to limited information. That's basically all there is to it. With appropriate knowledge of correct responses, you can theoretically react perfectly to everything.
The observer can get you that information. Besides, you can scout everything you need to scout with the probe before the obs comes out.
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I feel there are two ways to go about phoenix builds.
As Dhalpir said, they can give you great information and map presence. In this case you want a very limited number of phoenix for light harass and defense while playing reactive.
Phoenix get worse and worse as a match progresses and stalker/colossus/archon numbers grow. I feel phoenix are best when gotten early with a one or two gate stargate build. This allows the early phoenix to build energy. Then up to 4 gates or immortal if you prefer into a strong one base all in attack.
Use the phoenix to lift zealots/sentries. They both die very quickly. After those units go down, immortals and lastly the stalkers. Microing everything properly takes crisp execution. It is a very strong attack.
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I'm really liking the 3 Phoenix rush which you use to bum-rush the ramp. It's a bit 1 base all-inny but what in PvP isn't?
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what? they own colossus dont they? i dont know, on 1base v 1base which is extremely common in pvp, your not going to be able to get blink stalkers in numbers WITH colossus right? did i just missread?
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On November 16 2011 21:06 rawler wrote:
1.) Am I wrong about what I said above? Is there something powerful about a phoenix build that I am missing? Map Control perhaps? Can they help secure a fast expansion with their harass?
All of that and more. With phoenixes you have complete map vision. It hard counters any immortal build (by the time you scout your opponents tech with an observer, your opponent will already have a couple of phoenixes out and it's too late to switch to a fast blink build). You can't really move out of your base with a robo army if your opponent goes for phoenix -> phoenix build enables you to build a safe relatively fast expansion. Phoenixes can take out sentries that you need to in order to get away with fast tech / low amount of unit builds (when your sentries are in the air, they can't cast forcefields -> 3 phoenixes and a bunch of stalker zealot can win you games right away).
On November 16 2011 21:06 rawler wrote:
2.) Is there a popular phoenix build PvP that a pro has posted and the community has approved of? From my research and searching, it seems these builds are still being hammered out and no one has perfected a great build yet.
I'm sure someone has posted a decent phoenix build. Not necessarily a pro, tho. Also, there is huge variation in these builds, depending on what you aim for (fast expansion, 3 phoenix allin, just a couple of probe kills).
[B]On November 16 2011 21:06 rawler wrote:[/B
3.) Are void rays a key part of these builds as well? I imagine that immortals might be important in these builds as well to control stalkers.
I don't think anyone ever uses voidrays in pvp. Way too fragile against stalkers. Immortals are too gas heavy to be mixed in with phoenixes.
In general you just don't aim for a billion phoenixes. Unfortunately, they are no mutas. You just want a few to control your opponent or harass and then transition to whatever you feel makes most sense.
Phoenix builds aren't perfect. At least the ones I know of, but with the recent trend of immortal based midgame armies, phoenixes are incredibly potent.
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Phoenixes are awesome.
1) Total information of what your opponent is doing.
2) Probe harass if he is not doing anything aggressive
3) Most cost efficient combat unit in the PvP midgame
[ 4) no one has clue about how to play against phoenix right now ^^ ]
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I was surprised but i don't think blink stalkers necessarily hard counter phoenix. But the phoenix player plays on a razors edge in that fight, so best not to go for them if you're not extremely good at PvP.
Eu global inv. spoiler:
+ Show Spoiler + In Naniwa v.s.Sase, Naniwa went phoenix v.s. a blink stalker opening and through knowing when he could press forward with his units (counting the blink timing) he slowly worked down Sase stalkers. PvP may not be Sases strong suit, but he didn't really play poorly, Naniwa was just beastly with his phoenix
They aren't super effective v.s. colossus but they are effective enough that the phoenix player should win. In fact phoenix is really good against all robo builds. The builds major weakness is 4-gate, but that build has it's own gaping flaws. Other than that, all the other benefits listed in the thread:
-knowing exactly what your opponent is doing
-being able to punish opponent if they move out of base
-guaranteed kills on any isolated units
-map control
-sex appeal
Phoenix really are just great units, I hope PvP does start to see heavier stargate play.
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Blink builds absolutely do not counter phoenix. I would argue it's the other way around, because phoenix lift basically negates blink and makes sure that they lose stalkers if they try to use blink stalker mobility to harass you, like blinking into the main and harassing your army at the front. You actually almost never want to harass probes with phoenix, because the energy is much better spent either pressuring their front or saving up so that you can lift several times in a fight.
On the vast majority of maps for PvP I do 1 gate stargate (2 more gates). If the opponent is doing a robo build with only 1 or 2 sentries, it's a build order win, and I'll wait for 3-4 phoenix, build a 4th gate, and JFKH. If the opponent is doing some other build or has 3-4 sentries (it can be hard to lift that many sentries, especially if their unit models are covered by stalkers or some other unit), I'll just expand safely, because armies with phoenix are better than every other army in the mid game
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I feel like robo twilight blink builds do not counter phoenixes but a pure twilight council only blink build has a timing that can just straight up kill phoenix play.
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Well, you say that you put down cannons after you know its phoenix. so I kill 4 Probes, then you put down 2 Cannons that is a 500 Mineral loss for you, not regarding the mining time. I can do that with 3 Phoenix, if you go for 1Base Blinkstalker I forcefield my ramp and snipe your observer (you should get a Robo behind the Phoenix) Then I just pump Immortals and win.
Of course it does not always work that way, but if you paly perfectly I think Phoenix is the way to go, they eat Zealots and Sentries, they are slightly more expensive than Stalkers but give me map control, make me the agressor and let you waste minerals on Cannons.
Sounds nice to me 
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What i'm seeing a lot right now is DT builds into archon/zealot play. I haven't tried phoenixes agains it yet but it seems it can be really difficult to play agians if they get the darkshrine somehwere you can't scout or simply because archons should do well agains phoenixs. Probably what will end up hapening is that both players will expand and then go for colossi or whatever tech of their choise. Still, hpeonxis are great ebucsset ehya allow you to scout though
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Phoenixes are just the best midgame combat unit. I often don't lift a single probe and just safe mass energy for lifting.
There are two styles of phoenix play though:
-1 base going for 25 probes and 3-4 gate pushing him, while sniping his sentries with the phoenixes.
-1 base with full saturation phoenix/immortal/stalker, insanely strong vs late expansions.
Voids aren't useful really, and the build itself doesn't matter that much. Just do a safe opening and a add a stargate or star/robo according to what you want to do.
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I'm not a toss player, but i've always thought pheonix builds could be strong in PvP. I'm not sure how they are against colossus. But I see a lot of 1base blink builds in pvp, what about a 1 stargate into chargelot/pheonix? If they have colossus you have phenoix, if blink stalkers you can lift stalkers/sentrys and chargelots do solid damage to anything they get hits on. Just a thought coming from a zerg player. May or may not be somethiing viable to think about as i've never played a pvp.
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On November 16 2011 22:34 SeriouR wrote:What i'm seeing a lot right now is DT builds into archon/zealot play. I haven't tried phoenixes agains it yet but it seems it can be really difficult to play agians if they get the darkshrine somehwere you can't scout or simply because archons should do well agains phoenixs. Probably what will end up hapening is that both players will expand and then go for colossi or whatever tech of their choise. Still, hpeonxis are great ebucsset ehya allow you to scout though
Scouting an early Darkshrine is easy. You don't need to see the building, just the units that your opponent has.
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I can imagine if you 1 gate stargate and add 3 more gates it would be a powerful build as long as you know a DT is not coming. If you start getting pheonixes earlier than blink stalkers(or before a mass of blink stalkers is there), then I would say it's good against blink build as well. But problem is, how do you get there?
You certainly can't open 1 gate stargate without dying to a normal 4gate, if you go forge and cannons your pheonixes will be delayed to the extent where there would be too many stalkers compared to the pheonix to begin with so you're probably going to lose. If you open 3 gate while getting stargate up, by the time you start getting pheonixes it would also be too late since blink robo build would be getting their stalker count up before you even started making pheonixes. Unless you are able to put on so much ridiculous pressure with only 3 gates and 2 gas that you force your opponent to make immortals and sentries while you get your stargate up, then it would be viable.
So yea, how do you create a pheonix build that can hold off a 4 gate, but also start producing pheonixes before stalkers can be warped in continuously?
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if i remember properly, a pvp mothership build works infinitely better if you have 1-2 pheonix. Since you have the stargate anyway, you crank them out when you have the money, and they will target the enemies obs first since they attack air only, its something you might not think of to micro your stalkers against the tiny little obs, but pheonix take all that away.
not like any pvp game is going to see a mothership but still..
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On November 16 2011 23:12 Xenorawks wrote:
I can imagine if you 1 gate stargate and add 3 more gates it would be a powerful build as long as you know a DT is not coming. If you start getting pheonixes earlier than blink stalkers(or before a mass of blink stalkers is there), then I would say it's good against blink build as well. But problem is, how do you get there?
You certainly can't open 1 gate stargate without dying to a normal 4gate, if you go forge and cannons your pheonixes will be delayed to the extent where there would be too many stalkers compared to the pheonix to begin with so you're probably going to lose. If you open 3 gate while getting stargate up, by the time you start getting pheonixes it would also be too late since blink robo build would be getting their stalker count up before you even started making pheonixes. Unless you are able to put on so much ridiculous pressure with only 3 gates and 2 gas that you force your opponent to make immortals and sentries while you get your stargate up, then it would be viable.
So yea, how do you create a pheonix build that can hold off a 4 gate, but also start producing pheonixes before stalkers can be warped in continuously?
you still need to scout. there's no way around that. 4gate strategies are revealed with the timing of their second gas, energy on nexus etc. So yeah, if your opponent goes 4g, you don't want to play 1g stargate.
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On November 16 2011 23:19 Mandalor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 23:12 Xenorawks wrote:
I can imagine if you 1 gate stargate and add 3 more gates it would be a powerful build as long as you know a DT is not coming. If you start getting pheonixes earlier than blink stalkers(or before a mass of blink stalkers is there), then I would say it's good against blink build as well. But problem is, how do you get there?
You certainly can't open 1 gate stargate without dying to a normal 4gate, if you go forge and cannons your pheonixes will be delayed to the extent where there would be too many stalkers compared to the pheonix to begin with so you're probably going to lose. If you open 3 gate while getting stargate up, by the time you start getting pheonixes it would also be too late since blink robo build would be getting their stalker count up before you even started making pheonixes. Unless you are able to put on so much ridiculous pressure with only 3 gates and 2 gas that you force your opponent to make immortals and sentries while you get your stargate up, then it would be viable.
So yea, how do you create a pheonix build that can hold off a 4 gate, but also start producing pheonixes before stalkers can be warped in continuously? you still need to scout. there's no way around that. 4gate strategies are revealed with the timing of their second gas, energy on nexus etc. So yeah, if your opponent goes 4g, you don't want to play 1g stargate.
I don't think I ever mention about going 1 g stargate. I'm just saying it would be powerful IF ONLY you could do that. There is no way in hell you can scout a good 4 gate just with probes. Every build in PvP has to be able to defend a 4gate. Therefore 1 gate stargate is never going to work.
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EPT
