EPT[D] PvP Phoenix Play - Page 3
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eugalp
United States203 Posts
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Zarent
109 Posts
I open 3 stalker rush and off of 2 gates go Robo -> Start TC -> See Phoenixes with observer, thus cancel initial immortal. Make the snap decision based off what I see to either warp in 2 more Stalkers or just go for a really fast expand with very few units. The issue for me is that Phoenixes keep me ridiculously pinned and I have no idea when I can actually push out, nor what the best option for dealing with them is. In my past few games, I've gotten blink and 2 separate balls of ~5-6 stalkers to protect each of my bases. After that I throw down a Templar Archive and eventually start working on charge. Off of 2 base, I don't want to be going Colossi since they get picked off when I attack, right? So my only available option is Chargelot/Archon. However, this is a HUGE timing window where A) I can't be aggressive with my blink stalkers and only can rely on keeping my probes alive and keeping a 2base econ and B) He has infinite scouting information since ~5 blink stalkers can't reliably kill phoenixes. So what's my option against this? Usually what I've found is that the time it takes to get to Templar Archives AND Charge is -huge-, which allows my opponent to pump out a fuckload of immortals and Zealots himself. And yet, I don't believe that I can skimp on Stalkers or blink due to the option of my opponent overcommiting to Phoenixes, yet I have an extreme difficulty working off of lower tech. tl;dr - What is the best army to deal with Phoenixes after establishing an expand shortly before my opponent, and assuming relatively equal economies with his Phoenixes killing a few of my probes? | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On November 17 2011 06:50 Zarent wrote: I actually don't understand this. Perhaps it's just my method of play, but I have an extreme amount of difficulty dealing with Phoenixes, even though I don't think there are too many issues with my build. I open 3 stalker rush and off of 2 gates go Robo -> Start TC -> See Phoenixes with observer, thus cancel initial immortal. Make the snap decision based off what I see to either warp in 2 more Stalkers or just go for a really fast expand with very few units. The issue for me is that Phoenixes keep me ridiculously pinned and I have no idea when I can actually push out, nor what the best option for dealing with them is. In my past few games, I've gotten blink and 2 separate balls of ~5-6 stalkers to protect each of my bases. After that I throw down a Templar Archive and eventually start working on charge. Off of 2 base, I don't want to be going Colossi since they get picked off when I attack, right? So my only available option is Chargelot/Archon. However, this is a HUGE timing window where A) I can't be aggressive with my blink stalkers and only can rely on keeping my probes alive and keeping a 2base econ and B) He has infinite scouting information since ~5 blink stalkers can't reliably kill phoenixes. So what's my option against this? Usually what I've found is that the time it takes to get to Templar Archives AND Charge is -huge-, which allows my opponent to pump out a fuckload of immortals and Zealots himself. And yet, I don't believe that I can skimp on Stalkers or blink due to the option of my opponent overcommiting to Phoenixes, yet I have an extreme difficulty working off of lower tech. tl;dr - What is the best army to deal with Phoenixes after establishing an expand shortly before my opponent, and assuming relatively equal economies with his Phoenixes killing a few of my probes? I don't see what your problem is this situation. Your unit comp of zealot/archon/stalker should be able to beat zealot/immortal/phoenix in the long run. Also, have you tried templar for feedback on phoenix? | ||
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
On November 16 2011 22:34 SeriouR wrote: What i'm seeing a lot right now is DT builds into archon/zealot play. I haven't tried phoenixes agains it yet but it seems it can be really difficult to play agians if they get the darkshrine somehwere you can't scout or simply because archons should do well agains phoenixs. Probably what will end up hapening is that both players will expand and then go for colossi or whatever tech of their choise. Still, hpeonxis are great ebucsset ehya allow you to scout though  I actually played a bunch of games against a friend of mine with this exact strategy in mind. If you rally your firstp hoenix to their base, you can find their DT shrine usually in enough time to lay a robo, and then you just continue phoenix production and avoid expanding. In battles agaisnt archon/zealot with phoenixes you want to lift his zealots. EDIT: it appears he made a post regarding this very series of games halfway down the second page already. | ||
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Pabs
93 Posts
On November 16 2011 23:42 sleepingdog wrote: People are exaggerating the use of lift-off vs (blink) stalkers way too much. If you use one phoenix to lift off one stalker during a battle, you spend 150/100 (phoenix) to immobilize a 125/50 (stalker) unit. Now please think again if this is actually cost-effective. If you try to out"play" a blink-player by lifting off and sniping stalkers, he should be able to overwhelm you with pure force since his units are simply cheaper. No offense, but that statement is incredibly short-sighted. You are almost implying that someone would make pure phoenix to combat blink stakers. There will of course be the rest of the army present which changes the cost/efficiency analysis. Graviton beam severely limits the utility of blink because you can no longer avoid direct confrontations. I'm personally delighted when stalkers focus my phoenix because they are wasting dps on light armor. I wreck blink stalkers if they try to trade for phoenix. I think a lot of people try to phoenix harass against blink and simply lose too many. If you just keep them with your army and force a confrontation you just win. | ||
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Despicatus
34 Posts
While you might be able to hold you expansion against a dt--> archon player ab chargelot archon player with templar will have more archons and more zealots, the the only way to survive an archon chargelot allin while having gone phoenix is in my opinion completly walling yourself off at the top of the ramp, and then you will just get contained and the archon + charge player will get a free expansion. Also if he has rly good reaction timing he can warp in 2 templar at each base and completly negate probe harras by feedbacking the phoenix when they fly in. | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
On November 17 2011 18:51 Despicatus wrote: I personally dont really like phoenix play because i feel that they get straight up hardcountered by some1 who goes straight for archon, chargelot (without dts, but instead high templar). While you might be able to hold you expansion against a dt--> archon player ab chargelot archon player with templar will have more archons and more zealots, the the only way to survive an archon chargelot allin while having gone phoenix is in my opinion completly walling yourself off at the top of the ramp, and then you will just get contained and the archon + charge player will get a free expansion. Also if he has rly good reaction timing he can warp in 2 templar at each base and completly negate probe harras by feedbacking the phoenix when they fly in. There's a timing where you can allin a player going for pure zealot archon. If he his playing reactively and getting templar tech a bit later with more stalkers, then you can expo and defend with simcity. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On small maps I don't really feel uncomfortable with robo play against phoenix builds: I make an observer first and quee a immortal afterwards. The obs arrives fast enough at small maps that I can still cancel my immortal and smoothly change into a blink + obs build which I feel does quite well against phoenix. It's very important to never overmake sentries though as they are horrible agianst phoenix, going without zealots is also great but not at all times possible. If you go twilight council after robo you basically force the phoenix play to go robo as well so you'll be twilight + robo against his stargate + robo. If you notice he expanded in response to your robo you can simply go with an archon / zealot / stalker timing attack on small maps, an archon can't be hurt by phoenix so as long as you win the ground fight you are basically in a won position, phoenix also suck for counterattacking your probes because of limited energy. On big maps phoenix get alot better but I play DT as described by Cecilsunkure alot on big maps now. It's great vs anything but robo and on huge maps it's also quite fine against that still. It beats phoenix quite well and is also safer to do against 4gate then stargate, thus I like it really much. | ||
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Universum
Canada192 Posts
Often spoken is that Phoenix builds are the future of PvP. However, I find this hard to believe, because a mineral line harass can be shutdown with a few photon cannons (pheonixes can't hit ground, so taking losses for a few probes is no longer worth it) and it can be hard countered with blink stalkers which are very popular now a days. I personnaly use Pheonix builds in PvP at a High Level and the cannon part is untrue. If the harass forces your opponent to put 1 - 3 cannons in mineral line to defend it they lose 150 - 450 minerals to something useless in an army fight. Plus you can still poke in and kill 1 - 2 probes with only taking shield damage. You mentionned blink stalkers as a problem, but they were never one for me. The trick I found is to make only 5 - 6 pheonix and go mass blink stalkers with heavy upgrades. Usually I outplay the opponent like that. Try it out. | ||
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Rohan
United Kingdom83 Posts
1) Blink all ins are actually quite hard to hold off, but it's not impossible, especially if they're stupid enough to blink up your ramp and your follow up FFs are then good enough to trap them into zealots. If they don't blink all in you, but go that robo/blink composition -- delay your 4th Phoenix for a robo, and just keep killing observers. 2) Most common response I'm seeing to this atm is for them to just expand because they think they're safe. They're not, really. Your opponent can't rely on blink stalkers to reliably deflect the Phoenix, so they're going to need cannons. Especially if they botch their sim city. If the blink stalkers are split up too much, as well, you can often just kill them off and move onto the probe line. Ditto sentries if there's only 2-3 stalkers around them, just lift them up and they die for free. At this point, if they have to get a forge and 1-2 cannons at each mineral line, plus the losses that they're going to take, if you've made 4-5 phoenix then transitioned into robo you're miles ahead. Plus, typically, you can expand off of your first three pheonix because unless they want to get their probe line totally butchered they have to keep their units back. 3) It hard counters the crap out of a Warp Prism 4 gate all in. 4) The amount of map control you get is just obscene. It's also very fun, and stretches your multi-tasking and decision making to it's outer limits. I like it. 5) Transitions: I've been having a lot of success with building 3 immortals, 5 gates off of two bases and then just shoving with a forward pylon and using the pheonix to kill off sentries before I push, along with using the pheonix to make sure that the enemies army is always spread out and out of position. Since the usual response is to go blink stalker, this just runs them over. 6) DT rushes aren't much of an issue, since you scout initially with your first pheonix. If you see a TC, then getting a robo earlier is never a bad idea since it means blink or DT -- which, realistically, is hard countered by getting a robo bay up. If I see no tech in my opponents base at all, and few units, I assume DTs by proxy and just throw down a robo as early as I can. If they've hardcore rushed for DTs, cancel your second or third pheonix and then just throw down a robo. Not failed to DTs yet! This is all at a mid-high diamond/low masters kind of level, so take from it what you will | ||
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Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
Stalkers needed blink to just keep up with the phoenix, but since stalkers need to be kept in a ball to actually be effective, Naniwa would constantly pick up stragglers, throw down a forcefield, and completely change the landscape of each battle, and his technically smaller army would absolutely crush his opponents with almost no losses. Phoenixes are a lot like mutalisks in that they don't engage directly against things that can fight back, but they give a lot of map control, and a lot of space control when used in combination with forcefields. Blink was actually not that helpful for Naniwas opponents, as they were forced to keep their units in a ball, and while neither player had a distinct ability to actually press an engagement with his opponent from openings alone, Naniwa actually had more versatility with the phoenixes and after whittling down his opponents just straight steamrolled them. It's not even funny how one-sided those games looked. | ||
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Ada
Germany150 Posts
On November 17 2011 03:59 Brutland wrote: i wish i had a build to link but Axslav absolutely wrecks pvp using phoenix builds. he uses phoenix to harass and get probes, force the other player into his base, then techs, expands at will. think of the phoenix like a super fast muta in terms of how it effects the other player I don't think they are like mutas. Mutas can base trade and don't rely on energy to kill units. When I see phoenix I just go all-in at the moment, works best for me. I add one or two gates and move out. The obs I already have helps me fight at his choke. Now there are two points. If he spends all his energy on my probes I have a superior ground army and should have no problems to crush him, but if he uses his phoenix for defence it should come down to micro of if he spend to much in additional tech. | ||
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Rohan
United Kingdom83 Posts
On November 17 2011 22:01 Ada wrote: I don't think they are like mutas. Mutas can base trade and don't rely on energy to kill units. When I see phoenix I just go all-in at the moment, works best for me. I add one or two gates and move out. The obs I already have helps me fight at his choke. Now there are two points. If he spends all his energy on my probes I have a superior ground army and should have no problems to crush him, but if he uses his phoenix for defence it should come down to micro of if he spend to much in additional tech. But it doesn't work like that. The second a phoenix player sees you throwing down more gateways it's obvious what your plan is. Plus, if I have 4-5 pheonix I can butcher 9 probes and then fly back. An all in won't work at this stage, since the pheonix player can stabilise. Could you post a replay of an all in killing a phoenix player? | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
On November 17 2011 22:01 Ada wrote: I don't think they are like mutas. Mutas can base trade and don't rely on energy to kill units. When I see phoenix I just go all-in at the moment, works best for me. I add one or two gates and move out. The obs I already have helps me fight at his choke. Now there are two points. If he spends all his energy on my probes I have a superior ground army and should have no problems to crush him, but if he uses his phoenix for defence it should come down to micro of if he spend to much in additional tech. There is absolutely no way that a gateway centric 1 base all-in can break the ramp of a phoenix player. Infinite FF being one of the reason, ramp defender's advantage another reason, and phoenixes being so badass against gateway units a third reason. | ||
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Newbiesk
United States27 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On November 17 2011 22:01 Ada wrote: I don't think they are like mutas. Mutas can base trade and don't rely on energy to kill units. When I see phoenix I just go all-in at the moment, works best for me. I add one or two gates and move out. The obs I already have helps me fight at his choke. Now there are two points. If he spends all his energy on my probes I have a superior ground army and should have no problems to crush him, but if he uses his phoenix for defence it should come down to micro of if he spend to much in additional tech. well a good phoenix player ofcourse knows how much probes he can pick off and still return with enough energy to use the phoenix in fight. A group of say 5 phoenix can easily kill 5 probes and be used for defending. To the people that say phoenix can still do ok against DT, i just don't get it. First of all scouting DT in time with phoenix is quite hard since by the time the first phoenix flies over opponents base DT will be close to done (probably around 30 seconds). This hardly leaves enough time to get an obs especially as phoenix builds tend to lack a sentry. Also if you get a sentry to hold off DT you can be quite vulnerable to an archon push, archons can't die to phoenix afterall. | ||
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Zarent
109 Posts
Any idea what the weakness of this would be? | ||
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galivet
288 Posts
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Xujhan
Canada65 Posts
On November 16 2011 21:06 rawler wrote: 1.) Am I wrong about what I said above? Is there something powerful about a phoenix build that I am missing? Map Control perhaps? Can they help secure a fast expansion with their harass? A couple of things. For one, you're underestimating how good the raw numbers of a Phoenix are. In equal food, Phoenixes actually do the about the same damage to Colossi as Stalkers do, even after the bonus damage is factored in. For another, the threat of flying into his mineral line and eating a bunch of probes means that any early push he makes is completely allin, which in turn means you can take a safe expansion. If he pushes: cancel the nexus, camp the ramp with forcefields, and enjoy the ~10+ worker lead. What other people have mentioned about constant scouting and map presence is good too, but it's not the only point in Phoenixes favour. On November 16 2011 21:06 rawler wrote: 2.) Is there a popular phoenix build PvP that a pro has posted and the community has approved of? From my research and searching, it seems these builds are still being hammered out and no one has perfected a great build yet. Axslav's build is phenominal. Rough outline: 13gate (three total chronos on probes), second gas on 18, chrono boost initial gateway units: Zealot, Stalker, Stalker, Sentry, Sentry. Don't chrono Warp gates much. Make a stargate and a second gateway as money allows. Start a robo when your second phoenix is making, unless you confirm an opposing Phoenix build; use zealot/sentry/immortal to defend against blink builds. Expand and harass. Transition into chargelot/archon (with DTs) and good upgrades, and eventually a mothership. On November 16 2011 21:06 rawler wrote: 3.) Are void rays a key part of these builds as well? I imagine that immortals might be important in these builds as well to control stalkers. Void Rays are pretty awful. The only time I'd consider them in PvP is on 4+ bases as a surprise to break a Colossus war, but Phoenix builds don't really transition into Colossi, so it's not relevant here. On November 16 2011 22:20 Zefa wrote: I feel like robo twilight blink builds do not counter phoenixes but a pure twilight council only blink build has a timing that can just straight up kill phoenix play. A pure blink build will never get vision up the ramp. Simple as that. Once there are a couple immortals in play the phoenix player can expand easily. On November 16 2011 23:30 Xenorawks wrote: I don't think I ever mention about going 1 g stargate. I'm just saying it would be powerful IF ONLY you could do that. There is no way in hell you can scout a good 4 gate just with probes. Every build in PvP has to be able to defend a 4gate. Therefore 1 gate stargate is never going to work. That's actually quite wrong. 1gate stargate (Axslav's build) has enough sentries in time to stop a 4gate. The only way a 4gate can actually be at all threatening is if it tries to bumrush up your ramp with pylons before warp gate tech finishes - which he'd have to do blind when it's actually a bad idea against most builds - and even then you're fine if you just pull probes intelligently. That aside, you can scout 4gate builds pretty well with your initial probe: look for chrono usage and gas. You can't confirm it that way, but if he does a build that looks like a 4gate just go 2gate Stargatge instead, and you're totally fine. Even if he was bluffing and switches into a tech build, your slightly later Stargate is mae up for by the fact that he delayed his second gas to make the bluff. | ||
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SidewinderSC2
United States236 Posts
On November 17 2011 23:40 Zarent wrote: This perhaps is a dumb idea, but how necessary is blink in order to deal with Phoenixes? Perhaps getting ~8 stalkers, 4 at each mineral line, and then just rushing for TC for charge and Archons? Not having blink will lessen your ability to punish poor micro from phoenixes, but then again, you barely ever will be able to actually kill them anyway. Therefore the timing push with chargelot/archon will come out much faster. Additionally, going Charge instead of Blink still has roughly the same look - still a TC being chronoed, low gas count. Only issue is if your opponent 'overcommits' to Phoenixes and gets a critical mass, but wouldn't having earlier HT/Archons be able to punish this in an indirect fashion? Any idea what the weakness of this would be? I have killed Phoenix users with Zealot/Archon but they were fairly poor Phoenix builds, and I've also lost with Zealot/Archon to Phoenix builds that actually transitioned and were handled correctly. The idea with Blink is being able to target down Phoenix instead of letting them constantly harass you, and then obviously the blink will really help out in bigger engagements. The point of Phoenix is to typically force a lot of Stalkers, to which they respond with a ton of Immortals. If you catch them going down this route and they handle their Immortals poorly or whatever, then I guess you could win. Still kinda seems like a coinflip and that you're not actually deciding the game - your opponent screwing up or not is the deciding factor. | ||
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