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On November 17 2011 04:55 Sceptre wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 01:41 CecilSunkure wrote:Phoenix builds seem okay, but I just haven't lost to any in months due to playing pretty unorthodox, like this: DT -> Chargelot Archon. On November 16 2011 23:08 Geiko wrote:On November 16 2011 22:34 SeriouR wrote:What i'm seeing a lot right now is DT builds into archon/zealot play. I haven't tried phoenixes agains it yet but it seems it can be really difficult to play agians if they get the darkshrine somehwere you can't scout or simply because archons should do well agains phoenixs. Probably what will end up hapening is that both players will expand and then go for colossi or whatever tech of their choise. Still, hpeonxis are great ebucsset ehya allow you to scout though  Scouting an early Darkshrine is easy. You don't need to see the building, just the units that your opponent has. I don't know how this is supposed to be easy against someone that intentionally makes it hard. You'd have to really commit hard to reliably scout the Dark Shrine, and that's just not a realistic thing to do at that point in the game unless you're doing a delayed 4 Gate off of no scouting info. Dhalphir and I played some games where he went Phoenix vs my DT-> Charge/Archon earlier this week. He would scout with his first phoenix to figure out what tech path I was heading down and immediately after seeing few gas units/ a twilight council would cut a phoenix to throw down a robo. From here he had to chain FF his ramp until the obs came out, but he didn't instantly die. What was interesting was that neither player felt comfortable to move out of their base with each others main army, as the phoenix were still a threat to me as he blocked his ramp with force fields. The follow up chargelot/archon push was again problematic, but Dhalphir held it off consistently by moving down his ramp and engaging at the natural with phoenix/zealot/a few stalkers. It was very important that the chargelot/archon player was not allowed to establish a contain. As for the actual battle, lifting zealots was the clear way to go, as the phoenix made quick work of them. Immortals were a bit of a liability in this scenario, so he avoided making them. The few key things we deduced from these games were: A) Don't stop making phoenixes unless you need to cut one to get detection up. B) Expand alongside your opponent. Expansion timing can be tricky, and you are very susceptible to all-ins if you dump 400 minerals into an expensive pylon. C) Do not get contained. While it may be tempting to try and use your ramp to get a defensive advantage, you don't really have the stopping power to break the contain with just phoenix. In summary, the games came down to who played their respective style better, with perhaps a slight advantage going towards the DT->Charge/Archon player (especially if they can get a DT into your base). I can post some replays if people would like to see them. The really awful game is when both players open Phoenix. Get ready for the most frustrating and volatile micro experience of your life.
I'm very surprised that you couldn't just kill his army if it were down the ramp. Something must have been off in that scenario, especially if your forced a lot of FF with the first DT. Perhaps there was a micro, or macro issue against Dhal?
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On November 18 2011 06:33 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 04:55 Sceptre wrote:On November 17 2011 01:41 CecilSunkure wrote:Phoenix builds seem okay, but I just haven't lost to any in months due to playing pretty unorthodox, like this: DT -> Chargelot Archon. On November 16 2011 23:08 Geiko wrote:On November 16 2011 22:34 SeriouR wrote:What i'm seeing a lot right now is DT builds into archon/zealot play. I haven't tried phoenixes agains it yet but it seems it can be really difficult to play agians if they get the darkshrine somehwere you can't scout or simply because archons should do well agains phoenixs. Probably what will end up hapening is that both players will expand and then go for colossi or whatever tech of their choise. Still, hpeonxis are great ebucsset ehya allow you to scout though Scouting an early Darkshrine is easy. You don't need to see the building, just the units that your opponent has. I don't know how this is supposed to be easy against someone that intentionally makes it hard. You'd have to really commit hard to reliably scout the Dark Shrine, and that's just not a realistic thing to do at that point in the game unless you're doing a delayed 4 Gate off of no scouting info. Dhalphir and I played some games where he went Phoenix vs my DT-> Charge/Archon earlier this week. He would scout with his first phoenix to figure out what tech path I was heading down and immediately after seeing few gas units/ a twilight council would cut a phoenix to throw down a robo. From here he had to chain FF his ramp until the obs came out, but he didn't instantly die. What was interesting was that neither player felt comfortable to move out of their base with each others main army, as the phoenix were still a threat to me as he blocked his ramp with force fields. The follow up chargelot/archon push was again problematic, but Dhalphir held it off consistently by moving down his ramp and engaging at the natural with phoenix/zealot/a few stalkers. It was very important that the chargelot/archon player was not allowed to establish a contain. As for the actual battle, lifting zealots was the clear way to go, as the phoenix made quick work of them. Immortals were a bit of a liability in this scenario, so he avoided making them. The few key things we deduced from these games were: A) Don't stop making phoenixes unless you need to cut one to get detection up. B) Expand alongside your opponent. Expansion timing can be tricky, and you are very susceptible to all-ins if you dump 400 minerals into an expensive pylon. C) Do not get contained. While it may be tempting to try and use your ramp to get a defensive advantage, you don't really have the stopping power to break the contain with just phoenix. In summary, the games came down to who played their respective style better, with perhaps a slight advantage going towards the DT->Charge/Archon player (especially if they can get a DT into your base). I can post some replays if people would like to see them. The really awful game is when both players open Phoenix. Get ready for the most frustrating and volatile micro experience of your life. I'm very surprised that you couldn't just kill his army if it were down the ramp. Something must have been off in that scenario, especially if your forced a lot of FF with the first DT. Perhaps there was a micro, or macro issue against Dhal?
I think you're underestimating how good phoenixes are in battles. In the situation you guys are describing one player sunk money into a Stargate and a Robo, and the other into a Council and a Dark Shrine. All else being equal, the armies should be about equal cost, with the primary difference being made by whatever the Phoenixes were able to snipe beforehand in workers and zealots. The problem with using Archons as AA instead of Stalkers is that the short range means that phoenixes can consistently nibble at the corners of your army. That's been my experience, anyway, as a Phoenix player.
Out of curiosity, in the aforementioned scenario, when would you push out against the phoenix player, and what does your army count look like at the time?
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Go check Axslav's stream and tell me phoenixes are not good =)
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On November 18 2011 07:30 Xujhan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 06:33 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 17 2011 04:55 Sceptre wrote:On November 17 2011 01:41 CecilSunkure wrote:Phoenix builds seem okay, but I just haven't lost to any in months due to playing pretty unorthodox, like this: DT -> Chargelot Archon. On November 16 2011 23:08 Geiko wrote:On November 16 2011 22:34 SeriouR wrote:What i'm seeing a lot right now is DT builds into archon/zealot play. I haven't tried phoenixes agains it yet but it seems it can be really difficult to play agians if they get the darkshrine somehwere you can't scout or simply because archons should do well agains phoenixs. Probably what will end up hapening is that both players will expand and then go for colossi or whatever tech of their choise. Still, hpeonxis are great ebucsset ehya allow you to scout though Scouting an early Darkshrine is easy. You don't need to see the building, just the units that your opponent has. I don't know how this is supposed to be easy against someone that intentionally makes it hard. You'd have to really commit hard to reliably scout the Dark Shrine, and that's just not a realistic thing to do at that point in the game unless you're doing a delayed 4 Gate off of no scouting info. Dhalphir and I played some games where he went Phoenix vs my DT-> Charge/Archon earlier this week. He would scout with his first phoenix to figure out what tech path I was heading down and immediately after seeing few gas units/ a twilight council would cut a phoenix to throw down a robo. From here he had to chain FF his ramp until the obs came out, but he didn't instantly die. What was interesting was that neither player felt comfortable to move out of their base with each others main army, as the phoenix were still a threat to me as he blocked his ramp with force fields. The follow up chargelot/archon push was again problematic, but Dhalphir held it off consistently by moving down his ramp and engaging at the natural with phoenix/zealot/a few stalkers. It was very important that the chargelot/archon player was not allowed to establish a contain. As for the actual battle, lifting zealots was the clear way to go, as the phoenix made quick work of them. Immortals were a bit of a liability in this scenario, so he avoided making them. The few key things we deduced from these games were: A) Don't stop making phoenixes unless you need to cut one to get detection up. B) Expand alongside your opponent. Expansion timing can be tricky, and you are very susceptible to all-ins if you dump 400 minerals into an expensive pylon. C) Do not get contained. While it may be tempting to try and use your ramp to get a defensive advantage, you don't really have the stopping power to break the contain with just phoenix. In summary, the games came down to who played their respective style better, with perhaps a slight advantage going towards the DT->Charge/Archon player (especially if they can get a DT into your base). I can post some replays if people would like to see them. The really awful game is when both players open Phoenix. Get ready for the most frustrating and volatile micro experience of your life. I'm very surprised that you couldn't just kill his army if it were down the ramp. Something must have been off in that scenario, especially if your forced a lot of FF with the first DT. Perhaps there was a micro, or macro issue against Dhal? I think you're underestimating how good phoenixes are in battles. In the situation you guys are describing one player sunk money into a Stargate and a Robo, and the other into a Council and a Dark Shrine. All else being equal, the armies should be about equal cost, with the primary difference being made by whatever the Phoenixes were able to snipe beforehand in workers and zealots. The problem with using Archons as AA instead of Stalkers is that the short range means that phoenixes can consistently nibble at the corners of your army. That's been my experience, anyway, as a Phoenix player. Out of curiosity, in the aforementioned scenario, when would you push out against the phoenix player, and what does your army count look like at the time?
I don't really think Pheonixes are going to be any good whatsoever when all they can lift is Chargelots. You just simply ignore the Phoenix as the DT player and kill the ground army.
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On November 18 2011 07:45 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 07:30 Xujhan wrote:On November 18 2011 06:33 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 17 2011 04:55 Sceptre wrote:On November 17 2011 01:41 CecilSunkure wrote:Phoenix builds seem okay, but I just haven't lost to any in months due to playing pretty unorthodox, like this: DT -> Chargelot Archon. On November 16 2011 23:08 Geiko wrote:On November 16 2011 22:34 SeriouR wrote:What i'm seeing a lot right now is DT builds into archon/zealot play. I haven't tried phoenixes agains it yet but it seems it can be really difficult to play agians if they get the darkshrine somehwere you can't scout or simply because archons should do well agains phoenixs. Probably what will end up hapening is that both players will expand and then go for colossi or whatever tech of their choise. Still, hpeonxis are great ebucsset ehya allow you to scout though Scouting an early Darkshrine is easy. You don't need to see the building, just the units that your opponent has. I don't know how this is supposed to be easy against someone that intentionally makes it hard. You'd have to really commit hard to reliably scout the Dark Shrine, and that's just not a realistic thing to do at that point in the game unless you're doing a delayed 4 Gate off of no scouting info. Dhalphir and I played some games where he went Phoenix vs my DT-> Charge/Archon earlier this week. He would scout with his first phoenix to figure out what tech path I was heading down and immediately after seeing few gas units/ a twilight council would cut a phoenix to throw down a robo. From here he had to chain FF his ramp until the obs came out, but he didn't instantly die. What was interesting was that neither player felt comfortable to move out of their base with each others main army, as the phoenix were still a threat to me as he blocked his ramp with force fields. The follow up chargelot/archon push was again problematic, but Dhalphir held it off consistently by moving down his ramp and engaging at the natural with phoenix/zealot/a few stalkers. It was very important that the chargelot/archon player was not allowed to establish a contain. As for the actual battle, lifting zealots was the clear way to go, as the phoenix made quick work of them. Immortals were a bit of a liability in this scenario, so he avoided making them. The few key things we deduced from these games were: A) Don't stop making phoenixes unless you need to cut one to get detection up. B) Expand alongside your opponent. Expansion timing can be tricky, and you are very susceptible to all-ins if you dump 400 minerals into an expensive pylon. C) Do not get contained. While it may be tempting to try and use your ramp to get a defensive advantage, you don't really have the stopping power to break the contain with just phoenix. In summary, the games came down to who played their respective style better, with perhaps a slight advantage going towards the DT->Charge/Archon player (especially if they can get a DT into your base). I can post some replays if people would like to see them. The really awful game is when both players open Phoenix. Get ready for the most frustrating and volatile micro experience of your life. I'm very surprised that you couldn't just kill his army if it were down the ramp. Something must have been off in that scenario, especially if your forced a lot of FF with the first DT. Perhaps there was a micro, or macro issue against Dhal? I think you're underestimating how good phoenixes are in battles. In the situation you guys are describing one player sunk money into a Stargate and a Robo, and the other into a Council and a Dark Shrine. All else being equal, the armies should be about equal cost, with the primary difference being made by whatever the Phoenixes were able to snipe beforehand in workers and zealots. The problem with using Archons as AA instead of Stalkers is that the short range means that phoenixes can consistently nibble at the corners of your army. That's been my experience, anyway, as a Phoenix player. Out of curiosity, in the aforementioned scenario, when would you push out against the phoenix player, and what does your army count look like at the time? I don't really think Pheonixes are going to be any good whatsoever when all they can lift is Chargelots. You just simply ignore the Phoenix as the DT player and kill the ground army.
From my experience, just by picking off the GS sentry and zealots and lifting immortals, the battle goes overwhelmingly into your favor. Phoenix kill zealots almost 3x faster than a stalker, not to mention the lifted zealot is doing squat for dps in addition to getting instagibbed by phoenix. Zealot advantage is pretty important in PvP battles that don't involve splash. This is assuming though that you only spent a few lifts beforehand, enough to get a lead, not enough that a counter will kill because of deadweight phoenix.
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On November 18 2011 07:58 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 07:45 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 18 2011 07:30 Xujhan wrote:On November 18 2011 06:33 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 17 2011 04:55 Sceptre wrote:On November 17 2011 01:41 CecilSunkure wrote:Phoenix builds seem okay, but I just haven't lost to any in months due to playing pretty unorthodox, like this: DT -> Chargelot Archon. On November 16 2011 23:08 Geiko wrote:On November 16 2011 22:34 SeriouR wrote:What i'm seeing a lot right now is DT builds into archon/zealot play. I haven't tried phoenixes agains it yet but it seems it can be really difficult to play agians if they get the darkshrine somehwere you can't scout or simply because archons should do well agains phoenixs. Probably what will end up hapening is that both players will expand and then go for colossi or whatever tech of their choise. Still, hpeonxis are great ebucsset ehya allow you to scout though Scouting an early Darkshrine is easy. You don't need to see the building, just the units that your opponent has. I don't know how this is supposed to be easy against someone that intentionally makes it hard. You'd have to really commit hard to reliably scout the Dark Shrine, and that's just not a realistic thing to do at that point in the game unless you're doing a delayed 4 Gate off of no scouting info. Dhalphir and I played some games where he went Phoenix vs my DT-> Charge/Archon earlier this week. He would scout with his first phoenix to figure out what tech path I was heading down and immediately after seeing few gas units/ a twilight council would cut a phoenix to throw down a robo. From here he had to chain FF his ramp until the obs came out, but he didn't instantly die. What was interesting was that neither player felt comfortable to move out of their base with each others main army, as the phoenix were still a threat to me as he blocked his ramp with force fields. The follow up chargelot/archon push was again problematic, but Dhalphir held it off consistently by moving down his ramp and engaging at the natural with phoenix/zealot/a few stalkers. It was very important that the chargelot/archon player was not allowed to establish a contain. As for the actual battle, lifting zealots was the clear way to go, as the phoenix made quick work of them. Immortals were a bit of a liability in this scenario, so he avoided making them. The few key things we deduced from these games were: A) Don't stop making phoenixes unless you need to cut one to get detection up. B) Expand alongside your opponent. Expansion timing can be tricky, and you are very susceptible to all-ins if you dump 400 minerals into an expensive pylon. C) Do not get contained. While it may be tempting to try and use your ramp to get a defensive advantage, you don't really have the stopping power to break the contain with just phoenix. In summary, the games came down to who played their respective style better, with perhaps a slight advantage going towards the DT->Charge/Archon player (especially if they can get a DT into your base). I can post some replays if people would like to see them. The really awful game is when both players open Phoenix. Get ready for the most frustrating and volatile micro experience of your life. I'm very surprised that you couldn't just kill his army if it were down the ramp. Something must have been off in that scenario, especially if your forced a lot of FF with the first DT. Perhaps there was a micro, or macro issue against Dhal? I think you're underestimating how good phoenixes are in battles. In the situation you guys are describing one player sunk money into a Stargate and a Robo, and the other into a Council and a Dark Shrine. All else being equal, the armies should be about equal cost, with the primary difference being made by whatever the Phoenixes were able to snipe beforehand in workers and zealots. The problem with using Archons as AA instead of Stalkers is that the short range means that phoenixes can consistently nibble at the corners of your army. That's been my experience, anyway, as a Phoenix player. Out of curiosity, in the aforementioned scenario, when would you push out against the phoenix player, and what does your army count look like at the time? I don't really think Pheonixes are going to be any good whatsoever when all they can lift is Chargelots. You just simply ignore the Phoenix as the DT player and kill the ground army. From my experience, just by picking off the GS sentry and zealots and lifting immortals, the battle goes overwhelmingly into your favor. Phoenix kill zealots almost 3x faster than a stalker, not to mention the lifted zealot is doing squat for dps in addition to getting instagibbed by phoenix. Zealot advantage is pretty important in PvP battles that don't involve splash. This is assuming though that you only spent a few lifts beforehand, enough to get a lead, not enough that a counter will kill because of deadweight phoenix.
We were referring to really specific scenario without Sentries or Immortals to lift however, O_o
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phenix play is very good in pvp, since they work fine against everything. They crush robo builds, can scout dts, are not terrible against blink stalkers and are good against fe(you either kill a enough probes to get ahead and expand yourself or if he pulls his army to defend mineral line you ff the ramp and kill his expo. Its a win-win for you)
The only weakness of phoenix play is a 4 gate but it can be held of with some adjustments in your bo.
Btw. What to do if both players opened with phoenix?
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On November 18 2011 07:45 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 07:30 Xujhan wrote:On November 18 2011 06:33 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 17 2011 04:55 Sceptre wrote:On November 17 2011 01:41 CecilSunkure wrote:Phoenix builds seem okay, but I just haven't lost to any in months due to playing pretty unorthodox, like this: DT -> Chargelot Archon. On November 16 2011 23:08 Geiko wrote:On November 16 2011 22:34 SeriouR wrote:What i'm seeing a lot right now is DT builds into archon/zealot play. I haven't tried phoenixes agains it yet but it seems it can be really difficult to play agians if they get the darkshrine somehwere you can't scout or simply because archons should do well agains phoenixs. Probably what will end up hapening is that both players will expand and then go for colossi or whatever tech of their choise. Still, hpeonxis are great ebucsset ehya allow you to scout though Scouting an early Darkshrine is easy. You don't need to see the building, just the units that your opponent has. I don't know how this is supposed to be easy against someone that intentionally makes it hard. You'd have to really commit hard to reliably scout the Dark Shrine, and that's just not a realistic thing to do at that point in the game unless you're doing a delayed 4 Gate off of no scouting info. Dhalphir and I played some games where he went Phoenix vs my DT-> Charge/Archon earlier this week. He would scout with his first phoenix to figure out what tech path I was heading down and immediately after seeing few gas units/ a twilight council would cut a phoenix to throw down a robo. From here he had to chain FF his ramp until the obs came out, but he didn't instantly die. What was interesting was that neither player felt comfortable to move out of their base with each others main army, as the phoenix were still a threat to me as he blocked his ramp with force fields. The follow up chargelot/archon push was again problematic, but Dhalphir held it off consistently by moving down his ramp and engaging at the natural with phoenix/zealot/a few stalkers. It was very important that the chargelot/archon player was not allowed to establish a contain. As for the actual battle, lifting zealots was the clear way to go, as the phoenix made quick work of them. Immortals were a bit of a liability in this scenario, so he avoided making them. The few key things we deduced from these games were: A) Don't stop making phoenixes unless you need to cut one to get detection up. B) Expand alongside your opponent. Expansion timing can be tricky, and you are very susceptible to all-ins if you dump 400 minerals into an expensive pylon. C) Do not get contained. While it may be tempting to try and use your ramp to get a defensive advantage, you don't really have the stopping power to break the contain with just phoenix. In summary, the games came down to who played their respective style better, with perhaps a slight advantage going towards the DT->Charge/Archon player (especially if they can get a DT into your base). I can post some replays if people would like to see them. The really awful game is when both players open Phoenix. Get ready for the most frustrating and volatile micro experience of your life. I'm very surprised that you couldn't just kill his army if it were down the ramp. Something must have been off in that scenario, especially if your forced a lot of FF with the first DT. Perhaps there was a micro, or macro issue against Dhal? I think you're underestimating how good phoenixes are in battles. In the situation you guys are describing one player sunk money into a Stargate and a Robo, and the other into a Council and a Dark Shrine. All else being equal, the armies should be about equal cost, with the primary difference being made by whatever the Phoenixes were able to snipe beforehand in workers and zealots. The problem with using Archons as AA instead of Stalkers is that the short range means that phoenixes can consistently nibble at the corners of your army. That's been my experience, anyway, as a Phoenix player. Out of curiosity, in the aforementioned scenario, when would you push out against the phoenix player, and what does your army count look like at the time? I don't really think Pheonixes are going to be any good whatsoever when all they can lift is Chargelots. You just simply ignore the Phoenix as the DT player and kill the ground army.
That didn't actually answer my question. =/ I'd like to know what time you move out so that I can test whether or not a standard phoenix build can hold it. My experience is that it can, but without anything to test that's all the argument either of us can really give.
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I use phoenix a lot. I always do some probe harassment, but I try to not fully commit. I see some of you are saying that you do 0 probe harassment.
Do you think this is the correct thing to do, or is their some line where probe harassment goes over the top. How much probe harassment can one do, while still being able to counter the "last chance, all in" attack by your opponent.
I understand the idea about not going overboard, but by doing just a little phoenix probe harassment, you could force your opponent to play more defensively with his army or make cannons, or he could just try and kill you (which I don't think is a bad thing to force him to go all in.) Not to mention you also will get an econ advantage. But is harassing sentries and zealots, better than harassing probes? Or how much probes should I harass if any?
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On November 18 2011 06:33 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 04:55 Sceptre wrote:On November 17 2011 01:41 CecilSunkure wrote:Phoenix builds seem okay, but I just haven't lost to any in months due to playing pretty unorthodox, like this: DT -> Chargelot Archon. On November 16 2011 23:08 Geiko wrote:On November 16 2011 22:34 SeriouR wrote:What i'm seeing a lot right now is DT builds into archon/zealot play. I haven't tried phoenixes agains it yet but it seems it can be really difficult to play agians if they get the darkshrine somehwere you can't scout or simply because archons should do well agains phoenixs. Probably what will end up hapening is that both players will expand and then go for colossi or whatever tech of their choise. Still, hpeonxis are great ebucsset ehya allow you to scout though Scouting an early Darkshrine is easy. You don't need to see the building, just the units that your opponent has. I don't know how this is supposed to be easy against someone that intentionally makes it hard. You'd have to really commit hard to reliably scout the Dark Shrine, and that's just not a realistic thing to do at that point in the game unless you're doing a delayed 4 Gate off of no scouting info. Dhalphir and I played some games where he went Phoenix vs my DT-> Charge/Archon earlier this week. He would scout with his first phoenix to figure out what tech path I was heading down and immediately after seeing few gas units/ a twilight council would cut a phoenix to throw down a robo. From here he had to chain FF his ramp until the obs came out, but he didn't instantly die. What was interesting was that neither player felt comfortable to move out of their base with each others main army, as the phoenix were still a threat to me as he blocked his ramp with force fields. The follow up chargelot/archon push was again problematic, but Dhalphir held it off consistently by moving down his ramp and engaging at the natural with phoenix/zealot/a few stalkers. It was very important that the chargelot/archon player was not allowed to establish a contain. As for the actual battle, lifting zealots was the clear way to go, as the phoenix made quick work of them. Immortals were a bit of a liability in this scenario, so he avoided making them. The few key things we deduced from these games were: A) Don't stop making phoenixes unless you need to cut one to get detection up. B) Expand alongside your opponent. Expansion timing can be tricky, and you are very susceptible to all-ins if you dump 400 minerals into an expensive pylon. C) Do not get contained. While it may be tempting to try and use your ramp to get a defensive advantage, you don't really have the stopping power to break the contain with just phoenix. In summary, the games came down to who played their respective style better, with perhaps a slight advantage going towards the DT->Charge/Archon player (especially if they can get a DT into your base). I can post some replays if people would like to see them. The really awful game is when both players open Phoenix. Get ready for the most frustrating and volatile micro experience of your life. I'm very surprised that you couldn't just kill his army if it were down the ramp. Something must have been off in that scenario, especially if your forced a lot of FF with the first DT. Perhaps there was a micro, or macro issue against Dhal?
I can't speak for small micro issues, as we were only exploring the matchup, and I saw no glaring macro issues from either of us, but for me I found that with how many chargelots I was able to lift and kill, my zealot count was hugely higher which despite lacking charge overwhelmed his remaining stalkers and pair of archons.
I can post the replays in a few hours when I'm home from work - will PM them to you if interested.
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On November 18 2011 10:03 Xujhan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 07:45 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 18 2011 07:30 Xujhan wrote:On November 18 2011 06:33 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 17 2011 04:55 Sceptre wrote:On November 17 2011 01:41 CecilSunkure wrote:Phoenix builds seem okay, but I just haven't lost to any in months due to playing pretty unorthodox, like this: DT -> Chargelot Archon. On November 16 2011 23:08 Geiko wrote:On November 16 2011 22:34 SeriouR wrote:What i'm seeing a lot right now is DT builds into archon/zealot play. I haven't tried phoenixes agains it yet but it seems it can be really difficult to play agians if they get the darkshrine somehwere you can't scout or simply because archons should do well agains phoenixs. Probably what will end up hapening is that both players will expand and then go for colossi or whatever tech of their choise. Still, hpeonxis are great ebucsset ehya allow you to scout though Scouting an early Darkshrine is easy. You don't need to see the building, just the units that your opponent has. I don't know how this is supposed to be easy against someone that intentionally makes it hard. You'd have to really commit hard to reliably scout the Dark Shrine, and that's just not a realistic thing to do at that point in the game unless you're doing a delayed 4 Gate off of no scouting info. Dhalphir and I played some games where he went Phoenix vs my DT-> Charge/Archon earlier this week. He would scout with his first phoenix to figure out what tech path I was heading down and immediately after seeing few gas units/ a twilight council would cut a phoenix to throw down a robo. From here he had to chain FF his ramp until the obs came out, but he didn't instantly die. What was interesting was that neither player felt comfortable to move out of their base with each others main army, as the phoenix were still a threat to me as he blocked his ramp with force fields. The follow up chargelot/archon push was again problematic, but Dhalphir held it off consistently by moving down his ramp and engaging at the natural with phoenix/zealot/a few stalkers. It was very important that the chargelot/archon player was not allowed to establish a contain. As for the actual battle, lifting zealots was the clear way to go, as the phoenix made quick work of them. Immortals were a bit of a liability in this scenario, so he avoided making them. The few key things we deduced from these games were: A) Don't stop making phoenixes unless you need to cut one to get detection up. B) Expand alongside your opponent. Expansion timing can be tricky, and you are very susceptible to all-ins if you dump 400 minerals into an expensive pylon. C) Do not get contained. While it may be tempting to try and use your ramp to get a defensive advantage, you don't really have the stopping power to break the contain with just phoenix. In summary, the games came down to who played their respective style better, with perhaps a slight advantage going towards the DT->Charge/Archon player (especially if they can get a DT into your base). I can post some replays if people would like to see them. The really awful game is when both players open Phoenix. Get ready for the most frustrating and volatile micro experience of your life. I'm very surprised that you couldn't just kill his army if it were down the ramp. Something must have been off in that scenario, especially if your forced a lot of FF with the first DT. Perhaps there was a micro, or macro issue against Dhal? I think you're underestimating how good phoenixes are in battles. In the situation you guys are describing one player sunk money into a Stargate and a Robo, and the other into a Council and a Dark Shrine. All else being equal, the armies should be about equal cost, with the primary difference being made by whatever the Phoenixes were able to snipe beforehand in workers and zealots. The problem with using Archons as AA instead of Stalkers is that the short range means that phoenixes can consistently nibble at the corners of your army. That's been my experience, anyway, as a Phoenix player. Out of curiosity, in the aforementioned scenario, when would you push out against the phoenix player, and what does your army count look like at the time? I don't really think Pheonixes are going to be any good whatsoever when all they can lift is Chargelots. You just simply ignore the Phoenix as the DT player and kill the ground army. That didn't actually answer my question. =/ I'd like to know what time you move out so that I can test whether or not a standard phoenix build can hold it. My experience is that it can, but without anything to test that's all the argument either of us can really give.
Oh sorry, I didn't see your question. I honestly don't know, but if you click the link to the DT thread in my profile you can check out any of my replays.
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On November 16 2011 23:08 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 22:34 SeriouR wrote:What i'm seeing a lot right now is DT builds into archon/zealot play. I haven't tried phoenixes agains it yet but it seems it can be really difficult to play agians if they get the darkshrine somehwere you can't scout or simply because archons should do well agains phoenixs. Probably what will end up hapening is that both players will expand and then go for colossi or whatever tech of their choise. Still, hpeonxis are great ebucsset ehya allow you to scout though Scouting an early Darkshrine is easy. You don't need to see the building, just the units that your opponent has.
this as someone who often dt rushes to counter 4 gate in pvp even as the lower league player i am i can spot a dt rush a mile off without seeing twilight council or any buildings like that
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Just wanted to chime in here. Other people in this thread are saying void rays don't work, but lately on the ladder I've seen some interesting stargate play in pvp with voids. Some people have been doing a 1-1-1 style that all-ins at about 10 minutes like a terran would. They get void rays, immortals, and spend extra minerals on zealots. It's actually quite powerful because if you go blink stalker he has like 6 or 7 immortals and they tear you up. I think correct response is chargelot archon but I haven't figured out how to hold that push yet. (Masters toss)
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Italy12246 Posts
On November 20 2011 19:39 Maxsparrow wrote:
Just wanted to chime in here. Other people in this thread are saying void rays don't work, but lately on the ladder I've seen some interesting stargate play in pvp with voids. Some people have been doing a 1-1-1 style that all-ins at about 10 minutes like a terran would. They get void rays, immortals, and spend extra minerals on zealots. It's actually quite powerful because if you go blink stalker he has like 6 or 7 immortals and they tear you up. I think correct response is chargelot archon but I haven't figured out how to hold that push yet. (Masters toss)
Can't you just basetrade if his attack hits that late? Treat it like 1base colossus, expo far away and blink into his main when he moves out. If he isn't making phoenixes there's no point having your stalkers in your main.
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On November 20 2011 19:39 Maxsparrow wrote:
Just wanted to chime in here. Other people in this thread are saying void rays don't work, but lately on the ladder I've seen some interesting stargate play in pvp with voids. Some people have been doing a 1-1-1 style that all-ins at about 10 minutes like a terran would. They get void rays, immortals, and spend extra minerals on zealots. It's actually quite powerful because if you go blink stalker he has like 6 or 7 immortals and they tear you up. I think correct response is chargelot archon but I haven't figured out how to hold that push yet. (Masters toss)
I've seen it with phoenix instead of voidrays and it is indeed an interesting style. Barring a zealot/archon combination it seems to do quite well against anything and stargate into a later robo if needed is quite a flexible opening.
When i play robo against stargate I often find it heading towards this style, I add twilight council which leads them to add robo (to be safe from dt) and then I tend to go zealot/archon/stalker. Phoenixes lifting your zealots can really make your stalkers vulnerable against those immortals though.
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Me and a master friend played around for a few hours with phoenix play. Its really cool. Basically we found that a person who goes phoenix can keep their opponent contained for a while until they can deal with the phoenix's. The phoenix player is free to double expand, and has absolute scouting. A person with good apm can avoid cannons until there are 4 or 5 which is alot of minerals. The only counter to mass phoenix is archons and stalkers (barely). So you can assume to tech to zealot immortal, as you secure air control. I just think it gives you a very big economic advantage over robo play. If they go dt's you need to scout it though. which you should be able to FF the ramp if anything. But the key here is to double expand, otherwise you'll be screwed.
EDIT: Basically I used them like mutalisk harass. You NEED to be scouting though.
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United States8476 Posts
On November 21 2011 16:24 GoSuBlood wrote:
Me and a master friend played around for a few hours with phoenix play. Its really cool. Basically we found that a person who goes phoenix can keep their opponent contained for a while until they can deal with the phoenix's. The phoenix player is free to double expand, and has absolute scouting. A person with good apm can avoid cannons until there are 4 or 5 which is alot of minerals. The only counter to mass phoenix is archons and stalkers (barely). So you can assume to tech to zealot immortal, as you secure air control. I just think it gives you a very big economic advantage over robo play. If they go dt's you need to scout it though. which you should be able to FF the ramp if anything. But the key here is to double expand, otherwise you'll be screwed.
EDIT: Basically I used them like mutalisk harass. You NEED to be scouting though.
You can't double expand with phoenix.
High templar are also good vs phoenix.
Sure you can go zealot immortal as a followup, but not pure zealot immortals.
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So how early do you guys get phoenixes?? 1 gate Stargate? Have you guys had success transitining into an expo with phoenixes?
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On November 21 2011 20:27 SaladTosser wrote:
So how early do you guys get phoenixes?? 1 gate Stargate? Have you guys had success transitining into an expo with phoenixes?
2 gate stargate seems to be the best currently. If you have a good BO, it's even safe against most "fake tech build into 4 gate".
You don't really need to rush to phoenix imo. I get the stargate at 5:30, and 2 phoenix in my opponent's base by 7:20 - 7:30 which gives me just enough time to not die to DTs.
You can definitely expo after a phoenix build as long as your opponent isn't doing a blink all in or a fast DT build. Against one base colossus, you should all in and kill him and not expo.
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I feel like phoenix builds are the safest in PvP. You get complete map control, can snipe probes and sentries/zealots and get free scouting info. Plus phoenix play basically hardcounters any 1 base robo openers which still seem to be common in plat/diamond at least. I always chuckle when I stroll into my enemy's base and see him with a couple immortals. As long as you make the right transitions you should be able to win most games.
I usually open 1 gate stargate, and get a sentry out to be safe against 4 gates. Then add 2 more gates and move out with 3 phoenix and begin harassing probes and sniping sentries/zealots. I usually go up to 6-7 phoenix and then stop, if I see my opponent going blink I immediately stop phoenix production and build immortals. You would think blink counters phoenix but it really doesn't in small numbers. Its kind of like stalkers vs mutas where the air unit can just fly in and out and snipe stuff cuz they are so fast until there is a large ball of blink stalkers. From there just control the map, expand and transition into colossus. I will say that blink builds are the hardest to beat after opening stargate. You just need to build immortals in time to shut down their blink into main harass. Use phoenixes to check for there ninja expos.
If your opponent is trying some 1 base robo all in you can basically just walk over and kill them. If they try to expand you can kill them. If they decide to sit on their 1 base you are free to expand as you keep them stuck in their base with the phoenix harass. You can then mass voids and lol at the robo player.
In phoenix vs phoenix, I transition into blink and robo. Have to be careful about expanding here as you can just get rolled over if you expand too quick. I usually go for ninja expos and just transition into blink/obs play and eventually to colossus.
A DT rush could kill you if you don't but usually you get to their base with your first 3 phoenix in time to scout it and prepare for it. A delayed 4 gate could also kill a stargate opener as you cant FF the ramp indefinitely and phoenixes suck straight up vs stalkers but I have never had someone do this to me yet opening stargate.
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EPT
