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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
I do agree though that stalkers are pretty bad against phoenix though, it's just you need to get there safely.[/QUOTE] yeah am i right in thinking you can take out 1 cannon with just two stalkers if you micro the one being targeted out of range when taking hull damage...or is 3 the minimum required? anyway the point is it's very littl | ||
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Geiko
France1988 Posts
On November 22 2011 08:27 ThePianoDentist wrote: I don't know how you'd hold a 4gate doing that. Assuming you took 2gas and skipped zealot, and weren't doing 3stalker rush, I can absolutely 4gate you. You wouldn't be able to stop me from putting down pylons below and potentially above the ramp. A single cannon doesn't stop a 4gate, if I micro I can kill a cannon losing nothing. From my experience you need something like 3 cannons on a ramp just to stop a 4gate, let alone on open ground where micro is simple. I do agree though that stalkers are pretty bad against phoenix though, it's just you need to get there safely. yeah am i right in thinking you can take out 1 cannon with just two stalkers if you micro the one being targeted out of range when taking hull damage...or is 3 the minimum required? anyway the point is it's very littl I'm confused... Is this an answer to my post or someone else's ? :S Lol ok nevermind you just messsed up the quotes ^^ The answer is 3 if your opponent is focus firing with his cannons. | ||
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ZeGeR
Sweden30 Posts
Thx! | ||
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Geiko
France1988 Posts
On November 23 2011 05:45 ZeGeR wrote: I have a question. If you go for phoenix pvp, and your opponent rush to colossi, what is the best response? Keep making phoenix, getting void rays, maybe even carriers, or get your own robo? Thx! Add gates to reach 4 gates, and go kill him. Phoenix first to lift off the sentry then walk up the ramp with your army . Should be an easy win. | ||
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Xujhan
Canada65 Posts
On November 23 2011 06:09 Geiko wrote: Add gates to reach 4 gates, and go kill him. Phoenix first to lift off the sentry then walk up the ramp with your army . Should be an easy win. This will work, but it's rather unnecessary. Assuming you went Phoenix -> Robo, there's no combination of units the Colossus player can make that will ever kill you. Keep harassing, expand, and his eventual push will fail miserably. If you went pure Phoenix though, I can see why you'd prefer the 'go fucking kill him' option. | ||
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Bropro
United States6 Posts
Also, by going phoenix you gain map control so you can expand before your opponent and get an economic lead while scouting everything they're doing and getting some probe kills. For your opponent to expand, they need to be able to have enough stalkers to defend both bases from phoenix. If they don't, u can easily force field them in their base while u kill the expansion and back off. Also cannons in the mineral line are a bad reaction as the opponent can just counter expand. Both players will have same economy but the player with the phoenix will have a much better mobile army. Phoenix are also very useful in fights, better than stalkers as range dps. In a fight, u want to kill their zealots before they kill yours and phoenix add much more dps per cost than a stalker does to a zealot. In fights, you want your phoenix to focus on their phoenix first, then sentries, then zealots and then on collosus and immortals. Phoenix also don't take up physical land space so u have more of ur army shooting which is always nice. To hold off 4 gate, get 1 zealot, then 1 stalker, then 1 sentry, and be making a sentry by the time a 4 gate would hit. You should have atleast 2 gates done by now and once u know ur safe from 4 gate put down a stargate. | ||
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PlacidPanda
United States246 Posts
On November 16 2011 21:24 JonnyLaw wrote: Use the phoenix to lift zealots/sentries. They both die very quickly. After those units go down, immortals and lastly the stalkers. Microing everything properly takes crisp execution. It is a very strong attack. Ok this, this is not correct, zealots are probably the last thing you should be lifting, unless they have charge nearly all zealot dps can be avoided with good micro or at the very least reduced. It goes sentry, (eliminate their FF and GS) then immortals (eliminate the majority of their dps and stalker tank) and then from there it shouldn't matter because if you've invested enough into phoenixes on one base and still have enough lifts you've already lost. | ||
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Easytouch1500
United States66 Posts
On November 22 2011 02:28 OminouS wrote: I feel that phoenix play is risky mostly beacuse if your opponent scouts it in time and put down double stargate phoenix you have basicly lost. How do you expect to have air dominance against a player who got their SG before you and will have air control? Phoenixes have such a fast build time that they will at least have 3 or 4 phoenixes by the time you START your stargates. They WILL scout your stargates because he will have air control because he went SG before you. Thus, he will be able to get his own stargate in response and continue to have more phoenixes than you and win. Not the best response at all. | ||
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Easytouch1500
United States66 Posts
On November 22 2011 04:29 Lore-Fighting wrote: It doesn't matter. You can forcefield a couple of times but the obs will give vision on the high ground so it really doesn't matter. You will run out of FF energy. I can show you a replay if you want. Why does it matter if they get vision of high ground if they can't attack anything on it because of the fucking force field? | ||
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Easytouch1500
United States66 Posts
On November 23 2011 11:57 PlacidPanda wrote: Ok this, this is not correct, zealots are probably the last thing you should be lifting, unless they have charge nearly all zealot dps can be avoided with good micro or at the very least reduced. It goes sentry, (eliminate their FF and GS) then immortals (eliminate the majority of their dps and stalker tank) and then from there it shouldn't matter because if you've invested enough into phoenixes on one base and still have enough lifts you've already lost. Sorry, but this is kinda right, but pretty wrong. Though I am only a diamond league player so my own opinion means shit I was fortunate enough to have a coaching session with EgAxslav in which I pretty much interviewed him for an hour about his phoenix build (I seriously had about 30 or so questions lined up in a word document) When I asked about lift is what Axslav said... Axslav's Lift Priority 1. Sentries: they are light, and have low hp and no armor can FF etc. These are of course high priority 2. Immortals/zlots depending on army composition: they cost more than your phoenixes and in stalker heavy comps are worth lifting to CC only (but why would you be going a stalker heavy comp anyways while going phoenixes??). If you lift an immortal you still shouldn't try to kill it because it wouldn't maximize dps. Graviton beam should be used as a CC in this situation and you should focus fire down zealots that you would lift. Though also most players will go zealot heavy when going phoenixes (as you should get a robo in addition to your SG UNLESS they got an expansion) because of gas constraints. Immortals do less dps to zealots than Phoenixes do. Phoenixes also do more than twice the dps to zealots than immortals (8 compared to 18). Immortals also do about as much dps as zealots to other zealots yet you do so much more damage to other zealots.(13.1 dps for immortals and 11.66 dps for zlots when factoring in armor for both). Thus when going a zealot heavy comp it is better to lift the opponents zealots than their immortals as it gives the highest difference in dps output between your army and theirs. 3. Stalkers I guess, Axslav says really never to lift them unless they are the only thing left. At that point you have already probably won the engagement though. The exception to this is if they are going a blink-stalker play. I plan on publishing a guide soon on phoenix PVP that will be proof read by Axslav, with replays of him demonstrating the build and with the coaching VoD from Axslav on the build himself. | ||
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Geiko
France1988 Posts
On November 23 2011 19:57 Easytouch1500 wrote: Sorry, but this is kinda right, but pretty wrong. Though I am only a diamond league player so my own opinion means shit I was fortunate enough to have a coaching session with EgAxslav in which I pretty much interviewed him for an hour about his phoenix build (I seriously had about 30 or so questions lined up in a word document) When I asked about lift is what Axslav said... Axslav's Lift Priority 1. Sentries: they are light, and have low hp and no armor can FF etc. These are of course high priority 2. Immortals/zlots depending on army composition: they cost more than your phoenixes and in stalker heavy comps are worth lifting to CC only (but why would you be going a stalker heavy comp anyways while going phoenixes??). If you lift an immortal you still shouldn't try to kill it because it wouldn't maximize dps. Graviton beam should be used as a CC in this situation and you should focus fire down zealots that you would lift. Though also most players will go zealot heavy when going phoenixes (as you should get a robo in addition to your SG UNLESS they got an expansion) because of gas constraints. Immortals do less dps to zealots than Phoenixes do. Phoenixes also do more than twice the dps to zealots than immortals (8 compared to 18). Immortals also do about as much dps as zealots to other zealots yet you do so much more damage to other zealots.(13.1 dps for immortals and 11.66 dps for zlots when factoring in armor for both). Thus when going a zealot heavy comp it is better to lift the opponents zealots than their immortals as it gives the highest difference in dps output between your army and theirs. 3. Stalkers I guess, Axslav says really never to lift them unless they are the only thing left. At that point you have already probably won the engagement though. The exception to this is if they are going a blink-stalker play. I plan on publishing a guide soon on phoenix PVP that will be proof read by Axslav, with replays of him demonstrating the build and with the coaching VoD from Axslav on the build himself. This is pretty much accurate. Kill sentries first Lift immortals Kill zealots fast Never lift stalkers | ||
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eugalp
United States203 Posts
On November 23 2011 19:57 Easytouch1500 wrote: Sorry, but this is kinda right, but pretty wrong. Though I am only a diamond league player so my own opinion means shit I was fortunate enough to have a coaching session with EgAxslav in which I pretty much interviewed him for an hour about his phoenix build (I seriously had about 30 or so questions lined up in a word document) When I asked about lift is what Axslav said... Axslav's Lift Priority 1. Sentries: they are light, and have low hp and no armor can FF etc. These are of course high priority 2. Immortals/zlots depending on army composition: they cost more than your phoenixes and in stalker heavy comps are worth lifting to CC only (but why would you be going a stalker heavy comp anyways while going phoenixes??). If you lift an immortal you still shouldn't try to kill it because it wouldn't maximize dps. Graviton beam should be used as a CC in this situation and you should focus fire down zealots that you would lift. Though also most players will go zealot heavy when going phoenixes (as you should get a robo in addition to your SG UNLESS they got an expansion) because of gas constraints. Immortals do less dps to zealots than Phoenixes do. Phoenixes also do more than twice the dps to zealots than immortals (8 compared to 18). Immortals also do about as much dps as zealots to other zealots yet you do so much more damage to other zealots.(13.1 dps for immortals and 11.66 dps for zlots when factoring in armor for both). Thus when going a zealot heavy comp it is better to lift the opponents zealots than their immortals as it gives the highest difference in dps output between your army and theirs. 3. Stalkers I guess, Axslav says really never to lift them unless they are the only thing left. At that point you have already probably won the engagement though. The exception to this is if they are going a blink-stalker play. I plan on publishing a guide soon on phoenix PVP that will be proof read by Axslav, with replays of him demonstrating the build and with the coaching VoD from Axslav on the build himself. Sorry, what does CC mean? From the context, I gather that you lift immortals to simply take them out of battle rather than to actually kill them? Thus you would lift all of his immortals even if that reduces your army dps, as opposed to lifting one immortal at a time? | ||
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Vaelom
Korea (South)154 Posts
but the phoenix immortal push is pretty brutal if they pick up your sentries before you can forcefield his army off T.T | ||
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Sahand
United Kingdom114 Posts
On November 24 2011 00:28 eugalp wrote: Sorry, what does CC mean? From the context, I gather that you lift immortals to simply take them out of battle rather than to actually kill them? Thus you would lift all of his immortals even if that reduces your army dps, as opposed to lifting one immortal at a time? crowd control depending on your composition as immortals hit stalkers harder than zealots. if you're zealot heavy, you should aim to lift their zealots. if you're stalker heavy, you want to take less damage from immortals so you lift those instead as they deal bonus damage to armored units | ||
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cesc
South Africa77 Posts
and with all the scouting you can easily stop and/or counter your opponents strat Axslav has amazing pvp even though his other 2 matchups are lacking, and on his stream he commentates many games where he does the phoenix build - if you really want a solid understanding behind it i would recommend his stream | ||
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Balgrog
United States1221 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 17 2011 03:22 coL.rsvp wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=284244 I usually play zealot/immortal expand (nexus at 6 minutes if opponent is not 4-gating) and I've been crushing aggressive phoenix plays pretty hard by reactively cannoning when my obs sees phoenixes. The cannons DPS phoenixes down pretty quickly, so my immortal(s) mostly stay on the ground, and because I don't get a second gas or over-produce probes, I have about the same sized gateway army as the phoenix player. When phoenix openings have gone ahead with the attack, it's been lopsided enough that they've gged after the attack each time. I do have more trouble with macro phoenix plays tho because I don't have enough mobile AA to leave my base early enough to prevent my opponent from responding with his own expansion, so this turns into a macro battle where I have my expansion up earlier, but he has phoenixes to harass with. | ||
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ZeGeR
Sweden30 Posts
I cut workers because for some reason I always loose if I expand before my opponent in PvP. http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)ZeGeR_vs_(P)Undead/16014 | ||
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Geiko
France1988 Posts
On November 24 2011 08:28 ZeGeR wrote: This is what I meant earlier. When I go phoenix and survive any cheeses I usually win, except when the opponent goes colossi. I don't see how I can beat über fast colossi play with phoenix. Those of you who does phoenix openings, please look at the replay and tell me how I should have responded. Feels like the opponent can just stomp you with half the APM and laugh at your pathetic flyers. I cut workers because for some reason I always loose if I expand before my opponent in PvP. http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)ZeGeR_vs_(P)Undead/16014 I know this won't help but this loss had nothing to do with phoenix vs colossi because 1 base colossi is the build that phoenixes hard counter the most. Here's what I gathered from the replay -Bad macro : Stargate producing half of the time mainly. Otherwise you were spending your money decently. -Bad BO : Pylon blocked for a full minute at 26 food ? -You attack with half of your army available. You bring your probe to make an offensive pylon, but you attack before warping in anything. You even had a phoenix and some units who were coming but you still attacked without them. When you attack someone, you want to make sure that you push right after your warpin rounds when you have the biggest advantage. -Bad phoenix usage. From your poor phoenix macro, you only had 3 while attacking and you decided to lift 2 sentries. It takes a while for 1 phoenix to kill 2 sentries (1.5 phoenixes in fact) and during that time your opponent's stalker were DPSing your phoenix. You need more phoenixes to bust a ramp (read 5 or 6), and you should never lift more then you can kill. (unless you're lifting immortals). Once your phoenixes have targetted the sentries, pull them back over your army and get to work on the zealots. And when you run out of energy you can go focus down the colossus. TL;DR; Work on build order. Always produce out of Stargate. Attack with ALL your stuff at the same time. Hope this helps  | ||
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Xujhan
Canada65 Posts
On November 24 2011 01:24 kcdc wrote: I usually play zealot/immortal expand (nexus at 6 minutes if opponent is not 4-gating) and I've been crushing aggressive phoenix plays pretty hard by reactively cannoning when my obs sees phoenixes. The cannons DPS phoenixes down pretty quickly, so my immortal(s) mostly stay on the ground, and because I don't get a second gas or over-produce probes, I have about the same sized gateway army as the phoenix player. When phoenix openings have gone ahead with the attack, it's been lopsided enough that they've gged after the attack each time. I do have more trouble with macro phoenix plays tho because I don't have enough mobile AA to leave my base early enough to prevent my opponent from responding with his own expansion, so this turns into a macro battle where I have my expansion up earlier, but he has phoenixes to harass with. Personally, I don't see why some people like aggressive phoenix so much. It's fine in some situations, but never really significantly better than macro phoenixes. I don't think I've lost a macro game yet with phoenixes that I would have won had I gone allin on one base. Until recently I played a lot with a 1gas zealot/immortal expand similar to yours, and I agree completely with your assessment. I'd prefer to be the one with the phoenixes in that situation for stylistic reasons, but it's very close either way. | ||
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