[G] CvZ : Immortal Blink Templar - Page 4

On October 13 2011 18:53 Anihc wrote:


One thing I really like about opening with an early robo and twilight is that it's so versatile and reactive and you can easily adapt to what your opponent is doing. Standard roach play? You already have immortal/blink/sentry. Scout mutas? You're already getting blink. Hydras? You can easily add on a robo bay. Infestors? Add on a templar archives. This is in contrast with say opening stargate, where you'll end up with more or less useless voids if your opponent is prepared and did something other than standard macro play... like 2 base hydra, infestor, or muta... and then you have a late robo and twilight for late colossus or HT tech.

Fighting 2 base muta is no problem at all with this build, and I disagree that a greedy low-tech 4 base ling only build cannot be punished with robo - stalker/sentry/immortal is a mid game composition that is ridiculously cost effective against non-lair tech zerg. You don't need some kind of early warpgate push to punish that, just take your time and don't fret, get a nice sentry count, and once you have infinity force fields you can literally beat 200 supply roach/ling armies.

As far as late game goes, no protoss army is really unbeatable, but I feel like part of this style of play is constant aggression, via threatening with your stalker/sentry/immortal ball, and the warp prism harass. The zerg really should never get to hive tech unless you mess up and have to play defensively.

Although I didn't follow this build exactly, I started playing around with earlier warp prism harass (usually I don't get WP until later, and then it's only to simultaneously warp zealots into an expo or main while I a-move with a deathball), as well as getting blink earlier if I open robo. And I had a lot of success :p After watching your tal darim game I really like the stalker in WP harass, it's essentially like a void ray harass that's much stronger... and faster. You can go around sniping overlords, taking watch towers, harassing drones, even killing queens if the zerg isn't careful. One advantage people always say opening stargate has and why opening robo sucks is the lack of scouting/harassment - well the stalker in WP play pretty much completely negates that argument.

It is essential to show at least one Warp Prism in order for you to not fall behind economically. Otherwise you won't have a fighting force with your two Archons until about 12 minutes into the game, which is much much too late.

On October 13 2011 18:53 Anihc wrote:


One thing I really like about opening with an early robo and twilight is that it's so versatile and reactive and you can easily adapt to what your opponent is doing. Standard roach play? You already have immortal/blink/sentry. Scout mutas? You're already getting blink. Hydras? You can easily add on a robo bay. Infestors? Add on a templar archives. This is in contrast with say opening stargate, where you'll end up with more or less useless voids if your opponent is prepared and did something other than standard macro play... like 2 base hydra, infestor, or muta... and then you have a late robo and twilight for late colossus or HT tech.

Fighting 2 base muta is no problem at all with this build, and I disagree that a greedy low-tech 4 base ling only build cannot be punished with robo - stalker/sentry/immortal is a mid game composition that is ridiculously cost effective against non-lair tech zerg. You don't need some kind of early warpgate push to punish that, just take your time and don't fret, get a nice sentry count, and once you have infinity force fields you can literally beat 200 supply roach/ling armies.

As far as late game goes, no protoss army is really unbeatable, but I feel like part of this style of play is constant aggression, via threatening with your stalker/sentry/immortal ball, and the warp prism harass. The zerg really should never get to hive tech unless you mess up and have to play defensively.

Although I didn't follow this build exactly, I started playing around with earlier warp prism harass (usually I don't get WP until later, and then it's only to simultaneously warp zealots into an expo or main while I a-move with a deathball), as well as getting blink earlier if I open robo. And I had a lot of success :p After watching your tal darim game I really like the stalker in WP harass, it's essentially like a void ray harass that's much stronger... and faster. You can go around sniping overlords, taking watch towers, harassing drones, even killing queens if the zerg isn't careful. One advantage people always say opening stargate has and why opening robo sucks is the lack of scouting/harassment - well the stalker in WP play pretty much completely negates that argument.

While I agree that 3 base into muta would be a good soft counter to this build, I almost never see 3 base into muta... although I do see 3 base into standard roach/ling into tech switch to muta (damn slush and ostojiy) if that's what you mean. If you go straight into muta without roaches you have that 1-2 minute window to punish it like you said, and that's actually a huge window. If you go standard 3 base play (roach) you have much less time than that to punish it, if any at all.

Regardless, I feel perfectly fine with opening robo and battling greedy play. If your opponent is being super greedy with drones, you can punish it with just a straight up attack. If he's being overly cautious and making a ton of units, just harass and take your own 3rd a bit earlier yourself. With this build, I guess it all comes down to how good you are with the WP harass.

On October 13 2011 23:28 NrGmonk wrote:


I watched the game on shakruas and I see that his twilight was very early and thus on time vs mutas. I had only seen the previous 3 replays where he got pressured and thus all his buildings were late. Thus, I no longer think the build is terrible versus mutas.

However, I still maintain that his particular build is the worst possible thing you can do versus greedy zerg play, ie. 3 base into muta. I feel versus this type of zerg, you only have a 1-2 minute window to punish and if you don't, then afterwards you are way behind. In fact, I dare someone to find a worse build versus this greedy play.

Again, I'm not saying this build isn't viable. I'm just trying to nitpick at its weaknesses.

On October 14 2011 05:34 DarkOmen wrote:


What would you guys suggest as an appropriate zerg response to this build/opening/whatever? Is 3base with roach/ling into muta the best option in your opinion?

While I agree that 3 base into muta would be a good soft counter to this build, I almost never see 3 base into muta... although I do see 3 base into standard roach/ling into tech switch to muta (damn slush and ostojiy) if that's what you mean. If you go straight into muta without roaches you have that 1-2 minute window to punish it like you said, and that's actually a huge window. If you go standard 3 base play (roach) you have much less time than that to punish it, if any at all.

Regardless, I feel perfectly fine with opening robo and battling greedy play. If your opponent is being super greedy with drones, you can punish it with just a straight up attack. If he's being overly cautious and making a ton of units, just harass and take your own 3rd a bit earlier yourself. With this build, I guess it all comes down to how good you are with the WP harass.