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On October 12 2011 07:10 Lore-Fighting wrote:
I feel like this warp prizm play is gonna be shut down hard when zergs start patrolling coruptors. Is there any way you could use pheonix to replace the wp harrass?
That's a pretty strange statement. If you force a Corrupter with a 200 mineral unit, I'd take that anyday everyday.
No you cannot replace with Phoenixes. Warp prisms cost only minerals, and can warp things in. Phoenixes cannot do that, and are a very heavy investment. No Stargate units allowed.
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On October 11 2011 20:01 Flonomenalz wrote:
Um, you're just a LOT better than the players you are facing.
However... this just flat out loses to Roach/Hydra off of 3 base. You delay storm tech and Colossi.... yeah I can't see you beating a basic Roach Hydra composition that keeps up on upgrades.
I'm not too sure, if you keep up in upgrades (which can easily be done if you get an early twilight council, where combined with cb you get get an insanely fast +3 attack) you will have +2 attack and blink done for sure around the time roach/hydra can attack you from 3 base. Stalker/Sentry/Immortal with good ff and blink usage and good attack upgrades can beat this pretty well in my experience, yes you could have otherwise have one colossus out already and 2nd on the way or similar, but then again you wouldn't have blink yet and +2 attack ...
Ofc you need aoe as well, but basically instead of robo bay + thermalance you invest in +2 attack and blink in the meantime, works for me. If I did understand Cecil right he usually likes to opt for double ups when he gets his 3rd up and running from opening 1gate fe and attack upgrades from the forge from ffe mostly because the synergy is nice there, but he tries to adjust based on the game itself. If you see compositoins like roach/hydra or roach/infestor though, i wouldn't get any archons, they just don't do enough vs them. They end up in the front and die quickly, while with stalker/sentry/immo you can blink hurt stalkers back and have more range on your units to abuse ff + chokes while teching up to colossi (or ht if you can take quick 3rd and have the gas for it).
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i did really liked this write.
sadly i did loss all of my games soo far with this build.Still can see some fantasy in it,
so i will keep try ti get used it more maybe i will have succes than.
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I really like the concept here. If you see my sig you will know my background in sc2 and I am so lost in the matchups right now... the mid game of this build really appeals to the skills I grew as a macro Terran.
Gonna check out your replays now and then practice it with a friend. If I don't make a complete ass out of it I'll post the replays up.
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I really enjoyed it Cecil, here is a replay of me trying it out in mid masters ladder NA:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/14267
I think it was pretty effective, I felt I had control the whole game aside from some minor firefighting efforts. I think his muta switch was questionable, seems like he kinda half-assed it but I'm not sure. Anyway blinkstalker/Immortal felt good for defense and the WP allowed me to get my 3rd up, then I added templar (no archon), and I feel that storm plus stalker/immortal is just too much for pure roach or even roach ling.
The composition and my tech just feels really flexible, even without the stargate. I felt that I could handle pretty much unit mix (up to a point of course) with this comp.
Thanks a lot man, I've done it all day today and it feels right (never been a fan of colossus). Comment on it would be great!
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I am watching your replays and just have some questions that maybe are coming from my newness overall to this matchup and maybe not as much your style at times but indulge me if you will!
Game 1 (Shattered Temple vs Bobstaman)
You are going for the Council before robo this game, was this because of his aggressive use of lings (and only lings) with speed to try to deny your expansion?
Is your patroling Stalker at ~9:45 because of possible Nydus or is it to block scouting in general? (or both)
You have gone up to 7 gates before adding the Robo. Is this in general how you play vs that kind of ling pressure or is this maybe how you play when going the DT before robo? Talk about this choice and its reasons.
Your push ROLLED him over, I didn't pay attention to his macro at all and I notice he went ling/roach/bling into Spire so maybe you just hit a timing, but it would seem that either the openings either gave you a large advantage or your macro skills were above and beyond his in a way that made an "auto" win. Thoughts?
No warp prism this game, why? I am sure its because of the timing of the robo but I would like you to comment on if there was any reason that leads to this. Just a good discussion point.
Game 2 (Tal'Darim Altar vs Spencer)
Love this style, exactly what I envisioned when I read your guide.
Why no control groups for the warp prisms? I am impressed you do the harass so well without them!
This game is a great overall example of the style I am thinking.
Game 3 (Shattered Temple vs Mike)
Why did you choose to 3 Gate FE instead of 1? I assume it is because of the herp derp close positions on Blizzard Ladder map but just checking.
Forge and +1 before Twilight and Blink. You mention this in your guide but do you have any input on the WHY of this choice?
I did not like this zerg's play but I never like a zerg's play when its close positions so ya.
Game 4 (Shak Plat vs Saga)
Why did you 1 gate FE on Shak plat instead of FFE? I know thats totally not what this guide is about but this surprised me.
Ok that prism died ASAP to muta. This is one of the styles I was thinking would be very good vs your style. Your reaction seems to be double forge on 2 base, continue towards archons, and have your army in two groups to defend each base. You then add archons as you add 3 cannons to your main. This allows you to push with your 2 archon force and have the main sitting with good AA. Your push outright wins very handily. When and how would you take a 3rd base if things had not gone so well? Your build looks a bit more like a timing attack style in this replay.
In your guide you say to go any FE into 3 gates, add a robo, then twilight, then 2 more gates.
Almost every replay showed you going more gates before the twilight and it was usually a total of 6 or 7 around the twilight timing. What are your thoughts on this?
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On October 13 2011 07:06 vaderseven wrote:
In your guide you say to go any FE into 3 gates, add a robo, then twilight, then 2 more gates.
Almost every replay showed you going more gates before the twilight and it was usually a total of 6 or 7 around the twilight timing. What are your thoughts on this?
Do as he says, not as he does  !!!
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I am used to do as pro gamer replay from korea does and not as anyone says so bear with me g.
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United States8476 Posts
These are my thoughts. I'm going to nitpick, so don't take any offense to this criticism. I'm going to consider this as 2 guides, one as an opening build, and one as a final unit composition.
First, I'm going to comment on the opening build.
Basically, your opening consists of the following: 1 gate fe into 3 gates into fast robo. I feel as if this build has too many flaws for it to truly be considered a solid build. Its weaknesses include:
- Roach ling allin: You definitely don't have enough units or tech to defend a standard roach ling allin.
- Fast 2 base muta: Your warp prism gets to his base right around when mutas come out and you neither have the tech or pressure required to combat units.
- Extremely greedy play: I've had players go 4 base on pure ling tech. Yes, this dies to gateway pressure and it's extremely rare, but you can't punish it with the robo build that you suggest.
As for the ending unit composition: - It's been said before that archons aren't really that important in your unit composition. Personally, I never attempt to get archons until extremely late game. I feel like the money you spend on dts could be funneled somewhere else.
- I find your claim that "Voidray/HT/Immortal is basically unbeatable!" is very untrue. Correct ratios of Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor/Ground will demolish that."
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General Notes -
1. This opening is basically a way to use warp prism's to pin the enemy back and force units which should allow you to take a safe 3rd base and remain on even econ. You have to view your 3rd base timing as connected to the harass. Taking the base too early will allow him to just kill it because he is not pinned back at all and taking it to late will make you suffer economy wise.
2. I personally feel that if you spot roach hydra with the obs you can very easily go colsi/blink stalker after the warp prism instead of archon/immortal/blink stalker. This needs testing still.
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On October 13 2011 06:27 tehemperorer wrote:I really enjoyed it Cecil, here is a replay of me trying it out in mid masters ladder NA: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/14267I think it was pretty effective, I felt I had control the whole game aside from some minor firefighting efforts. I think his muta switch was questionable, seems like he kinda half-assed it but I'm not sure. Anyway blinkstalker/Immortal felt good for defense and the WP allowed me to get my 3rd up, then I added templar (no archon), and I feel that storm plus stalker/immortal is just too much for pure roach or even roach ling. The composition and my tech just feels really flexible, even without the stargate. I felt that I could handle pretty much unit mix (up to a point of course) with this comp. Thanks a lot man, I've done it all day today and it feels right (never been a fan of colossus). Comment on it would be great!
Seemed okay, you didn't have many units early on, not sure why but it feels like your army was just really small a whole lot of the early/mid game, probably the forge + cannon. You also probably should have gotten two warp prisms for hitting the main/third at the same time. You also shouldn't have bombarded across the map without getting those 2 archons! You lost your immortals to a bunch of lings >.< Still a pretty good try!
On October 13 2011 07:06 vaderseven wrote:
You are going for the Council before robo this game, was this because of his aggressive use of lings (and only lings) with speed to try to deny your expansion?
Is your patroling Stalker at ~9:45 because of possible Nydus or is it to block scouting in general? (or both)
You have gone up to 7 gates before adding the Robo. Is this in general how you play vs that kind of ling pressure or is this maybe how you play when going the DT before robo? Talk about this choice and its reasons.
Well, he was really aggressive with a lot lings and I knew Lair tech was going to be delayed. So the optimal choice I felt was to just go for faster DT (and faster Archon access). I didn't really need the Robo for Immortals until before I was about to push, since I knew offensive Roaches weren't on the way. It was highly situational. The Stalker was just to cover that location for Nydus/Overlord/Overseer/Whatever - it's just not comfortable for me to leave that spot of that map in that situation blind.
On October 13 2011 07:06 vaderseven wrote:
Your push ROLLED him over, I didn't pay attention to his macro at all and I notice he went ling/roach/bling into Spire so maybe you just hit a timing, but it would seem that either the openings either gave you a large advantage or your macro skills were above and beyond his in a way that made an "auto" win. Thoughts?
My composition was much stronger than his, he had no way to deal with Immortal/Archon at that point, because he had no higher tier tech units. I knew I could push him like that due his ling aggression slowing him down, and my DT tech keeping him from mining/macroing for a while.
On October 13 2011 07:06 vaderseven wrote:
No warp prism this game, why? I am sure its because of the timing of the robo but I would like you to comment on if there was any reason that leads to this. Just a good discussion point.
DT first means I can't afford it until later.
On October 13 2011 07:06 vaderseven wrote:
Game 2 (Tal'Darim Altar vs Spencer)
Love this style, exactly what I envisioned when I read your guide.
Why no control groups for the warp prisms? I am impressed you do the harass so well without them!
This game is a great overall example of the style I am thinking.
It would be better to control group them. I just have a lot more room to improve as a player 
On October 13 2011 07:06 vaderseven wrote:
Game 3 (Shattered Temple vs Mike)
Why did you choose to 3 Gate FE instead of 1? I assume it is because of the herp derp close positions on Blizzard Ladder map but just checking.
Forge and +1 before Twilight and Blink. You mention this in your guide but do you have any input on the WHY of this choice?
I did not like this zerg's play but I never like a zerg's play when its close positions so ya.
3 Gate because I wasn't sure if he was going to Roach/Ling me or not. +1 first because I placed Forge + Cannons in back to cover my flank (close pos Z players hit there all the time with all sorts of stuff).
On October 13 2011 07:06 vaderseven wrote:Game 4 (Shak Plat vs Saga)
Why did you 1 gate FE on Shak plat instead of FFE? I know thats totally not what this guide is about but this surprised me.
Ok that prism died ASAP to muta. This is one of the styles I was thinking would be very good vs your style. Your reaction seems to be double forge on 2 base, continue towards archons, and have your army in two groups to defend each base. You then add archons as you add 3 cannons to your main. This allows you to push with your 2 archon force and have the main sitting with good AA. Your push outright wins very handily. When and how would you take a 3rd base if things had not gone so well? Your build looks a bit more like a timing attack style in this replay.
In your guide you say to go any FE into 3 gates, add a robo, then twilight, then 2 more gates.
Almost every replay showed you going more gates before the twilight and it was usually a total of 6 or 7 around the twilight timing. What are your thoughts on this?
Well I can't simply follow a rigid build order if my Zerg opponent isn't letting me. Look at the engulfSaga game, I basically played the early game exactly how I wanted. Often times in the other replays I had to deviate slightly. This is perfectly fine, as the build is more a style than a specific build order. Think of the OP as more of build guidelines than a build order.
The double forge was definitely an accident, and I just made the best out of it by getting upgrades. They didn't even finish when I pushed lol. It would have been better to invest that second forge into a 3rd base for sure. And yes this game was more of a timing attack, because I basically 2 base allin'd him once I saw Mutalisks, because I felt that since I had the tech path I had (blink/archon/immortal) I could just simply win the game then and there. Turns out I was correct.
On October 13 2011 07:27 NrGmonk wrote:These are my thoughts. I'm going to nitpick, so don't take any offense to this criticism. I'm going to consider this as 2 guides, one as an opening build, and one as a final unit composition. First, I'm going to comment on the opening build. Basically, your opening consists of the following: 1 gate fe into 3 gates into fast robo. I feel as if this build has too many flaws for it to truly be considered a solid build. Its weaknesses include: - Roach ling allin: You definitely don't have enough units or tech to defend a standard roach ling allin.
- Fast 2 base muta: Your warp prism gets to his base right around when mutas come out and you neither have the tech or pressure required to combat units.
- Extremely greedy play: I've had players go 4 base on pure ling tech. Yes, this dies to gateway pressure and it's extremely rare, but you can't punish it with the robo build that you suggest.
As for the ending unit composition: - It's been said before that archons aren't really that important in your unit composition. Personally, I never attempt to get archons until extremely late game. I feel like the money you spend on dts could be funneled somewhere else.
- I find your claim that "Voidray/HT/Immortal is basically unbeatable!" is very untrue. Correct ratios of Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor/Ground will demolish that."
Well, I might have too few units early on to survive roach/ling allin, but until I die to it I'll just keep playing like I am. Against fast Muta, aren't you in the perfect situation to defend..? Blink Stalkers + Archon tech shortly after?
Against really greedy play, yes you cannot kill them outright, but if you catch wind they're doing this earlier on, then you haven't commit to anything. You can also research Hallu earlier for Phoenix scout, you can use the fast obs I talk about as well. I don't see why this build is any worse than any other, unless you're talking about blind Gateway pressure.
Same thing with late game - I'll keep doing what I'm doing until it doesn't work anymore.
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On October 13 2011 11:12 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 07:27 NrGmonk wrote:These are my thoughts. I'm going to nitpick, so don't take any offense to this criticism. I'm going to consider this as 2 guides, one as an opening build, and one as a final unit composition. First, I'm going to comment on the opening build. Basically, your opening consists of the following: 1 gate fe into 3 gates into fast robo. I feel as if this build has too many flaws for it to truly be considered a solid build. Its weaknesses include: - Roach ling allin: You definitely don't have enough units or tech to defend a standard roach ling allin.
- Fast 2 base muta: Your warp prism gets to his base right around when mutas come out and you neither have the tech or pressure required to combat units.
- Extremely greedy play: I've had players go 4 base on pure ling tech. Yes, this dies to gateway pressure and it's extremely rare, but you can't punish it with the robo build that you suggest.
As for the ending unit composition: - It's been said before that archons aren't really that important in your unit composition. Personally, I never attempt to get archons until extremely late game. I feel like the money you spend on dts could be funneled somewhere else.
- I find your claim that "Voidray/HT/Immortal is basically unbeatable!" is very untrue. Correct ratios of Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor/Ground will demolish that."
Well, I might have too few units early on to survive roach/ling allin, but until I die to it I'll just keep playing like I am. Against fast Muta, aren't you in the perfect situation to defend..? Blink Stalkers + Archon tech shortly after? Against really greedy play, yes you cannot kill them outright, but if you catch wind they're doing this earlier on, then you haven't commit to anything. You can also research Hallu earlier for Phoenix scout, you can use the fast obs I talk about as well. I don't see why this build is any worse than any other, unless you're talking about blind Gateway pressure. Same thing with late game - I'll keep doing what I'm doing until it doesn't work anymore.
One thing I really like about opening with an early robo and twilight is that it's so versatile and reactive and you can easily adapt to what your opponent is doing. Standard roach play? You already have immortal/blink/sentry. Scout mutas? You're already getting blink. Hydras? You can easily add on a robo bay. Infestors? Add on a templar archives. This is in contrast with say opening stargate, where you'll end up with more or less useless voids if your opponent is prepared and did something other than standard macro play... like 2 base hydra, infestor, or muta... and then you have a late robo and twilight for late colossus or HT tech.
Fighting 2 base muta is no problem at all with this build, and I disagree that a greedy low-tech 4 base ling only build cannot be punished with robo - stalker/sentry/immortal is a mid game composition that is ridiculously cost effective against non-lair tech zerg. You don't need some kind of early warpgate push to punish that, just take your time and don't fret, get a nice sentry count, and once you have infinity force fields you can literally beat 200 supply roach/ling armies.
As far as late game goes, no protoss army is really unbeatable, but I feel like part of this style of play is constant aggression, via threatening with your stalker/sentry/immortal ball, and the warp prism harass. The zerg really should never get to hive tech unless you mess up and have to play defensively.
Although I didn't follow this build exactly, I started playing around with earlier warp prism harass (usually I don't get WP until later, and then it's only to simultaneously warp zealots into an expo or main while I a-move with a deathball), as well as getting blink earlier if I open robo. And I had a lot of success :p After watching your tal darim game I really like the stalker in WP harass, it's essentially like a void ray harass that's much stronger... and faster. You can go around sniping overlords, taking watch towers, harassing drones, even killing queens if the zerg isn't careful. One advantage people always say opening stargate has and why opening robo sucks is the lack of scouting/harassment - well the stalker in WP play pretty much completely negates that argument.
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On October 11 2011 21:12 blacktar wrote:
this is a really awesome guide, I am struggling in PvZ horribly right now (high plat dying to be diamond) and I am going to make this my go to build I think.
I like how it has a high skill cap (warp prisms) hopefully this will help me to improve my multi tasking and my win / loss vs zerg. I really like how this build appears to be safe in the early game and surprises your enemy with a strong attack that leaves you free to expand behind it. The warp prism is so much more versatile than I realized. I never thought to use it to save units taking fire and let them regen some shields, the health buff makes that possible now.
Question :: in game one had you taken more damage in the first or second zergling attack and he was able to get the mutas out, do you feel that you would be vulnerable to them? I didn't see any mention of mutas at all in the guide, and it appears this timing comes a few min after they would be able to be harassing your base with them. How does this factor into shutting down your warp prism play, would you just go with more blink stalkers + archons and get storm quicker, or colo?
Awesome guide!
edit :: (Take a look at game 2 and how many drones that guy has at his main / natural, wow!)
He did mention Mutas, that's what the Archons and blink stalkers are for. Obviously if Mutas come out before you have enough of these units then your going to have to give up alot of map control until you get enough to take it back.
This is a really interesting play style as with only minor changes you can effectivly counter most Zerg armies. I don't play alot of P, only the occational team game, but I main as Z and the only way i can think of to stop this is Hyrda, as talked about in the OP. However as you also mentioned you can easily tech to storm or collosus and be in a commanding possition once again.
My only concern is the amount of gas that you would need to support this army. In the early game if you try to play it safe and go for a couple of sentries then your seriously delaying your various tech paths, however i think that once you get your 3rd up and running you'll be almost unstoppable
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United States8476 Posts
On October 13 2011 18:53 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 11:12 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 13 2011 07:27 NrGmonk wrote:These are my thoughts. I'm going to nitpick, so don't take any offense to this criticism. I'm going to consider this as 2 guides, one as an opening build, and one as a final unit composition. First, I'm going to comment on the opening build. Basically, your opening consists of the following: 1 gate fe into 3 gates into fast robo. I feel as if this build has too many flaws for it to truly be considered a solid build. Its weaknesses include: - Roach ling allin: You definitely don't have enough units or tech to defend a standard roach ling allin.
- Fast 2 base muta: Your warp prism gets to his base right around when mutas come out and you neither have the tech or pressure required to combat units.
- Extremely greedy play: I've had players go 4 base on pure ling tech. Yes, this dies to gateway pressure and it's extremely rare, but you can't punish it with the robo build that you suggest.
As for the ending unit composition: - It's been said before that archons aren't really that important in your unit composition. Personally, I never attempt to get archons until extremely late game. I feel like the money you spend on dts could be funneled somewhere else.
- I find your claim that "Voidray/HT/Immortal is basically unbeatable!" is very untrue. Correct ratios of Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor/Ground will demolish that."
Well, I might have too few units early on to survive roach/ling allin, but until I die to it I'll just keep playing like I am. Against fast Muta, aren't you in the perfect situation to defend..? Blink Stalkers + Archon tech shortly after? Against really greedy play, yes you cannot kill them outright, but if you catch wind they're doing this earlier on, then you haven't commit to anything. You can also research Hallu earlier for Phoenix scout, you can use the fast obs I talk about as well. I don't see why this build is any worse than any other, unless you're talking about blind Gateway pressure. Same thing with late game - I'll keep doing what I'm doing until it doesn't work anymore. One thing I really like about opening with an early robo and twilight is that it's so versatile and reactive and you can easily adapt to what your opponent is doing. Standard roach play? You already have immortal/blink/sentry. Scout mutas? You're already getting blink. Hydras? You can easily add on a robo bay. Infestors? Add on a templar archives. This is in contrast with say opening stargate, where you'll end up with more or less useless voids if your opponent is prepared and did something other than standard macro play... like 2 base hydra, infestor, or muta... and then you have a late robo and twilight for late colossus or HT tech. Fighting 2 base muta is no problem at all with this build, and I disagree that a greedy low-tech 4 base ling only build cannot be punished with robo - stalker/sentry/immortal is a mid game composition that is ridiculously cost effective against non-lair tech zerg. You don't need some kind of early warpgate push to punish that, just take your time and don't fret, get a nice sentry count, and once you have infinity force fields you can literally beat 200 supply roach/ling armies. As far as late game goes, no protoss army is really unbeatable, but I feel like part of this style of play is constant aggression, via threatening with your stalker/sentry/immortal ball, and the warp prism harass. The zerg really should never get to hive tech unless you mess up and have to play defensively. Although I didn't follow this build exactly, I started playing around with earlier warp prism harass (usually I don't get WP until later, and then it's only to simultaneously warp zealots into an expo or main while I a-move with a deathball), as well as getting blink earlier if I open robo. And I had a lot of success :p After watching your tal darim game I really like the stalker in WP harass, it's essentially like a void ray harass that's much stronger... and faster. You can go around sniping overlords, taking watch towers, harassing drones, even killing queens if the zerg isn't careful. One advantage people always say opening stargate has and why opening robo sucks is the lack of scouting/harassment - well the stalker in WP play pretty much completely negates that argument.
I watched the game on shakruas and I see that his twilight was very early and thus on time vs mutas. I had only seen the previous 3 replays where he got pressured and thus all his buildings were late. Thus, I no longer think the build is terrible versus mutas.
However, I still maintain that his particular build is the worst possible thing you can do versus greedy zerg play, ie. 3 base into muta. I feel versus this type of zerg, you only have a 1-2 minute window to punish and if you don't, then afterwards you are way behind. In fact, I dare someone to find a worse build versus this greedy play.
Again, I'm not saying this build isn't viable. I'm just trying to nitpick at its weaknesses.
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You know it's a quality thread when there're 5 blue members talking hahaha, great guide Cecil Thanks :D
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On October 13 2011 18:53 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 11:12 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 13 2011 07:27 NrGmonk wrote:These are my thoughts. I'm going to nitpick, so don't take any offense to this criticism. I'm going to consider this as 2 guides, one as an opening build, and one as a final unit composition. First, I'm going to comment on the opening build. Basically, your opening consists of the following: 1 gate fe into 3 gates into fast robo. I feel as if this build has too many flaws for it to truly be considered a solid build. Its weaknesses include: - Roach ling allin: You definitely don't have enough units or tech to defend a standard roach ling allin.
- Fast 2 base muta: Your warp prism gets to his base right around when mutas come out and you neither have the tech or pressure required to combat units.
- Extremely greedy play: I've had players go 4 base on pure ling tech. Yes, this dies to gateway pressure and it's extremely rare, but you can't punish it with the robo build that you suggest.
As for the ending unit composition: - It's been said before that archons aren't really that important in your unit composition. Personally, I never attempt to get archons until extremely late game. I feel like the money you spend on dts could be funneled somewhere else.
- I find your claim that "Voidray/HT/Immortal is basically unbeatable!" is very untrue. Correct ratios of Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor/Ground will demolish that."
Well, I might have too few units early on to survive roach/ling allin, but until I die to it I'll just keep playing like I am. Against fast Muta, aren't you in the perfect situation to defend..? Blink Stalkers + Archon tech shortly after? Against really greedy play, yes you cannot kill them outright, but if you catch wind they're doing this earlier on, then you haven't commit to anything. You can also research Hallu earlier for Phoenix scout, you can use the fast obs I talk about as well. I don't see why this build is any worse than any other, unless you're talking about blind Gateway pressure. Same thing with late game - I'll keep doing what I'm doing until it doesn't work anymore. One thing I really like about opening with an early robo and twilight is that it's so versatile and reactive and you can easily adapt to what your opponent is doing. Standard roach play? You already have immortal/blink/sentry. Scout mutas? You're already getting blink. Hydras? You can easily add on a robo bay. Infestors? Add on a templar archives. This is in contrast with say opening stargate, where you'll end up with more or less useless voids if your opponent is prepared and did something other than standard macro play... like 2 base hydra, infestor, or muta... and then you have a late robo and twilight for late colossus or HT tech. Fighting 2 base muta is no problem at all with this build, and I disagree that a greedy low-tech 4 base ling only build cannot be punished with robo - stalker/sentry/immortal is a mid game composition that is ridiculously cost effective against non-lair tech zerg. You don't need some kind of early warpgate push to punish that, just take your time and don't fret, get a nice sentry count, and once you have infinity force fields you can literally beat 200 supply roach/ling armies. As far as late game goes, no protoss army is really unbeatable, but I feel like part of this style of play is constant aggression, via threatening with your stalker/sentry/immortal ball, and the warp prism harass. The zerg really should never get to hive tech unless you mess up and have to play defensively. Although I didn't follow this build exactly, I started playing around with earlier warp prism harass (usually I don't get WP until later, and then it's only to simultaneously warp zealots into an expo or main while I a-move with a deathball), as well as getting blink earlier if I open robo. And I had a lot of success :p After watching your tal darim game I really like the stalker in WP harass, it's essentially like a void ray harass that's much stronger... and faster. You can go around sniping overlords, taking watch towers, harassing drones, even killing queens if the zerg isn't careful. One advantage people always say opening stargate has and why opening robo sucks is the lack of scouting/harassment - well the stalker in WP play pretty much completely negates that argument.
Lets see some replays
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On October 13 2011 18:53 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 11:12 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 13 2011 07:27 NrGmonk wrote:These are my thoughts. I'm going to nitpick, so don't take any offense to this criticism. I'm going to consider this as 2 guides, one as an opening build, and one as a final unit composition. First, I'm going to comment on the opening build. Basically, your opening consists of the following: 1 gate fe into 3 gates into fast robo. I feel as if this build has too many flaws for it to truly be considered a solid build. Its weaknesses include: - Roach ling allin: You definitely don't have enough units or tech to defend a standard roach ling allin.
- Fast 2 base muta: Your warp prism gets to his base right around when mutas come out and you neither have the tech or pressure required to combat units.
- Extremely greedy play: I've had players go 4 base on pure ling tech. Yes, this dies to gateway pressure and it's extremely rare, but you can't punish it with the robo build that you suggest.
As for the ending unit composition: - It's been said before that archons aren't really that important in your unit composition. Personally, I never attempt to get archons until extremely late game. I feel like the money you spend on dts could be funneled somewhere else.
- I find your claim that "Voidray/HT/Immortal is basically unbeatable!" is very untrue. Correct ratios of Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor/Ground will demolish that."
Well, I might have too few units early on to survive roach/ling allin, but until I die to it I'll just keep playing like I am. Against fast Muta, aren't you in the perfect situation to defend..? Blink Stalkers + Archon tech shortly after? Against really greedy play, yes you cannot kill them outright, but if you catch wind they're doing this earlier on, then you haven't commit to anything. You can also research Hallu earlier for Phoenix scout, you can use the fast obs I talk about as well. I don't see why this build is any worse than any other, unless you're talking about blind Gateway pressure. Same thing with late game - I'll keep doing what I'm doing until it doesn't work anymore. One thing I really like about opening with an early robo and twilight is that it's so versatile and reactive and you can easily adapt to what your opponent is doing. Standard roach play? You already have immortal/blink/sentry. Scout mutas? You're already getting blink. Hydras? You can easily add on a robo bay. Infestors? Add on a templar archives. This is in contrast with say opening stargate, where you'll end up with more or less useless voids if your opponent is prepared and did something other than standard macro play... like 2 base hydra, infestor, or muta... and then you have a late robo and twilight for late colossus or HT tech. Fighting 2 base muta is no problem at all with this build, and I disagree that a greedy low-tech 4 base ling only build cannot be punished with robo - stalker/sentry/immortal is a mid game composition that is ridiculously cost effective against non-lair tech zerg. You don't need some kind of early warpgate push to punish that, just take your time and don't fret, get a nice sentry count, and once you have infinity force fields you can literally beat 200 supply roach/ling armies. As far as late game goes, no protoss army is really unbeatable, but I feel like part of this style of play is constant aggression, via threatening with your stalker/sentry/immortal ball, and the warp prism harass. The zerg really should never get to hive tech unless you mess up and have to play defensively. Although I didn't follow this build exactly, I started playing around with earlier warp prism harass (usually I don't get WP until later, and then it's only to simultaneously warp zealots into an expo or main while I a-move with a deathball), as well as getting blink earlier if I open robo. And I had a lot of success :p After watching your tal darim game I really like the stalker in WP harass, it's essentially like a void ray harass that's much stronger... and faster. You can go around sniping overlords, taking watch towers, harassing drones, even killing queens if the zerg isn't careful. One advantage people always say opening stargate has and why opening robo sucks is the lack of scouting/harassment - well the stalker in WP play pretty much completely negates that argument.
I also have been utilizing robo twilight in PvZ a lot and I agree on your points. In particular though I like going twilight -> robo. I feel it is more versatile and if you're like me and prefer getting early upgrades it allows for a faster +2 weapons. Opening robo blindly has weaknesses that can be exploited such as spire play.
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On October 14 2011 01:34 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 18:53 Anihc wrote:On October 13 2011 11:12 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 13 2011 07:27 NrGmonk wrote:These are my thoughts. I'm going to nitpick, so don't take any offense to this criticism. I'm going to consider this as 2 guides, one as an opening build, and one as a final unit composition. First, I'm going to comment on the opening build. Basically, your opening consists of the following: 1 gate fe into 3 gates into fast robo. I feel as if this build has too many flaws for it to truly be considered a solid build. Its weaknesses include: - Roach ling allin: You definitely don't have enough units or tech to defend a standard roach ling allin.
- Fast 2 base muta: Your warp prism gets to his base right around when mutas come out and you neither have the tech or pressure required to combat units.
- Extremely greedy play: I've had players go 4 base on pure ling tech. Yes, this dies to gateway pressure and it's extremely rare, but you can't punish it with the robo build that you suggest.
As for the ending unit composition: - It's been said before that archons aren't really that important in your unit composition. Personally, I never attempt to get archons until extremely late game. I feel like the money you spend on dts could be funneled somewhere else.
- I find your claim that "Voidray/HT/Immortal is basically unbeatable!" is very untrue. Correct ratios of Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor/Ground will demolish that."
Well, I might have too few units early on to survive roach/ling allin, but until I die to it I'll just keep playing like I am. Against fast Muta, aren't you in the perfect situation to defend..? Blink Stalkers + Archon tech shortly after? Against really greedy play, yes you cannot kill them outright, but if you catch wind they're doing this earlier on, then you haven't commit to anything. You can also research Hallu earlier for Phoenix scout, you can use the fast obs I talk about as well. I don't see why this build is any worse than any other, unless you're talking about blind Gateway pressure. Same thing with late game - I'll keep doing what I'm doing until it doesn't work anymore. One thing I really like about opening with an early robo and twilight is that it's so versatile and reactive and you can easily adapt to what your opponent is doing. Standard roach play? You already have immortal/blink/sentry. Scout mutas? You're already getting blink. Hydras? You can easily add on a robo bay. Infestors? Add on a templar archives. This is in contrast with say opening stargate, where you'll end up with more or less useless voids if your opponent is prepared and did something other than standard macro play... like 2 base hydra, infestor, or muta... and then you have a late robo and twilight for late colossus or HT tech. Fighting 2 base muta is no problem at all with this build, and I disagree that a greedy low-tech 4 base ling only build cannot be punished with robo - stalker/sentry/immortal is a mid game composition that is ridiculously cost effective against non-lair tech zerg. You don't need some kind of early warpgate push to punish that, just take your time and don't fret, get a nice sentry count, and once you have infinity force fields you can literally beat 200 supply roach/ling armies. As far as late game goes, no protoss army is really unbeatable, but I feel like part of this style of play is constant aggression, via threatening with your stalker/sentry/immortal ball, and the warp prism harass. The zerg really should never get to hive tech unless you mess up and have to play defensively. Although I didn't follow this build exactly, I started playing around with earlier warp prism harass (usually I don't get WP until later, and then it's only to simultaneously warp zealots into an expo or main while I a-move with a deathball), as well as getting blink earlier if I open robo. And I had a lot of success :p After watching your tal darim game I really like the stalker in WP harass, it's essentially like a void ray harass that's much stronger... and faster. You can go around sniping overlords, taking watch towers, harassing drones, even killing queens if the zerg isn't careful. One advantage people always say opening stargate has and why opening robo sucks is the lack of scouting/harassment - well the stalker in WP play pretty much completely negates that argument. I also have been utilizing robo twilight in PvZ a lot and I agree on your points. In particular though I like going twilight -> robo. I feel it is more versatile and if you're like me and prefer getting early upgrades it allows for a faster +2 weapons. Opening robo blindly has weaknesses that can be exploited such as spire play.
You should watch the Shakuras replay, in regards to your spire point.
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This ought to be linked to in the posting guidelines as an example of what guides should look like. A+
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It is essential to show at least one Warp Prism in order for you to not fall behind economically. Otherwise you won't have a fighting force with your two Archons until about 12 minutes into the game, which is much much too late.
Why do you mean by this Cecil? Does this mean that if the zerg ignores your prisms and go all-in you, you won't have a fighting force to resist?
The way you phrase it make it seem like, in order for the build to be successful, the zerg must feel threatened by the prism and overmake defense? It sounds like the same philosophy of 1 gate Stargate into VR pressuring zerg's 3rd base, which no longer works since zerg knows how to not panic.
Do you think this build is solid in the sense that it does not rely on zerg panicking?
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EPT
