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United States8477 Posts
On October 20 2011 05:32 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 05:31 NrGmonk wrote:On October 20 2011 05:19 Complete wrote:
am i missing something? his opening isn't ffe (at least not the one he recommended) O_o. Typo =P On October 20 2011 05:23 CecilSunkure wrote:
I see. Then it's really just an opening problem, not a build problem. You should be a bit more clear, because it's confusing when you say build and you're talking about the opening.
I'll be aware of what you pointed out and see what I come up with in the future regarding the suggested opening in the OP. Noted =P ^_^ Could you get like a replay of a roach ling allin vs you and post it up? Would be nice to have. If not I can try to remember to ask a teammate to practice it with me sometime soon. Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 04:36 TechnoSchaman wrote:
i loaded the video from hotkeyit, was soooo pumped it was free. internet died, went to re-load it and now its only 2 minute segment, and you dont even split your probes before that ends haha
Will have to check replay, but this style looks awesome. Awe dang >< Someone must have decided to make it not-free D: Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 03:45 Dezire wrote:
can i ask why u wallof ur main ramp like taht at the start? cool build tho gna prac it right away I do that so that I can slip a line of units between two of the Gateways.
Here's the most allin version I've ever seen by far. Hits at 6:45 versus 1 gate fe. Zerg has 18 drones at this point.
http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season6/guangzhou/sc2/playoffs/download/25801981/
Here's the most macro version I've seen. Losira does it in both games. Hits at 7:50 with zerg having ~35 drones.
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65189
All other versions fall within this spectrum.
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On October 20 2011 05:44 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 05:37 starbreaker10 wrote:
extremely good guide! only problem would be low econ mass ling pressure from zerg on a small map, this will force you out of this build Are you sure? Fast DT tech would do really well vs low-econ mass lings. So would sim-city at your natural. Or are you talking about mass-lings vs the opening? I've done just fine vs a whole array of ling allins with a 1 Gate FE.
hehe im talking about the very early portion of this opening, im sure you do well, but with my micro/skill level, i find it very hard to 1 gate expand vs mass speedling (usually low econ). particularly in the moment im actually trying to lay down the nexus and there comes a flank with a ton of lings and im stuck with 1 zealot 2 sentrys and 2 unfinished gateways. any tips on approaching this moment? im mid masters fyi
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On October 20 2011 05:47 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 05:32 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 20 2011 05:31 NrGmonk wrote:On October 20 2011 05:19 Complete wrote:
am i missing something? his opening isn't ffe (at least not the one he recommended) O_o. Typo =P On October 20 2011 05:23 CecilSunkure wrote:
I see. Then it's really just an opening problem, not a build problem. You should be a bit more clear, because it's confusing when you say build and you're talking about the opening.
I'll be aware of what you pointed out and see what I come up with in the future regarding the suggested opening in the OP. Noted =P ^_^ Could you get like a replay of a roach ling allin vs you and post it up? Would be nice to have. If not I can try to remember to ask a teammate to practice it with me sometime soon. On October 20 2011 04:36 TechnoSchaman wrote:
i loaded the video from hotkeyit, was soooo pumped it was free. internet died, went to re-load it and now its only 2 minute segment, and you dont even split your probes before that ends haha
Will have to check replay, but this style looks awesome. Awe dang >< Someone must have decided to make it not-free D: On October 20 2011 03:45 Dezire wrote:
can i ask why u wallof ur main ramp like taht at the start? cool build tho gna prac it right away I do that so that I can slip a line of units between two of the Gateways. Here's the most allin version I've ever seen by far. Hits at 6:45 versus 1 gate fe. Zerg has 18 drones at this point. http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season6/guangzhou/sc2/playoffs/download/25801981/Here's the most macro version I've seen. Losira does it in both games. Hits at 7:50 with zerg having ~35 drones. http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65189All other versions fall within this spectrum.
tyty!
On October 20 2011 05:50 starbreaker10 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 05:44 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 20 2011 05:37 starbreaker10 wrote:
extremely good guide! only problem would be low econ mass ling pressure from zerg on a small map, this will force you out of this build Are you sure? Fast DT tech would do really well vs low-econ mass lings. So would sim-city at your natural. Or are you talking about mass-lings vs the opening? I've done just fine vs a whole array of ling allins with a 1 Gate FE. hehe im talking about the very early portion of this opening, im sure you do well, but with my micro/skill level, i find it very hard to 1 gate expand vs mass speedling (usually low econ). particularly in the moment im actually trying to lay down the nexus and there comes a flank with a ton of lings and im stuck with 1 zealot 2 sentrys and 2 unfinished gateways. any tips on approaching this moment? im mid masters fyi
If it's difficult, then do it! Pushing yourself will get you better. My tip is to use really intelligent sim-city with your first low-ground pylon and your units. Also you should be constructing sentries from your first gateway at all times! Check out my replays for ling defense, basically.
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jesus this is strong. I only watched 2 replays, and have played it three times now usually winning as my third gets up with that push with 2-4 archons.
Just curious (if its in replay lemme know which) when templar archive gets dropped in regards to third base. Is it as you get third, or after initial push or during push or what. I havent needed storm as Ive won with the initial push each time by dropping at his third or main, zerg 1As everything in there, and i just FF into/ out of their base and clean up.
But just curious on that timing
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On October 20 2011 05:57 TechnoSchaman wrote:
jesus this is strong. I only watched 2 replays, and have played it three times now usually winning as my third gets up with that push with 2-4 archons.
Just curious (if its in replay lemme know which) when templar archive gets dropped in regards to third base. Is it as you get third, or after initial push or during push or what. I havent needed storm as Ive won with the initial push each time by dropping at his third or main, zerg 1As everything in there, and i just FF into/ out of their base and clean up.
But just curious on that timing
Varies from game to game. I get it the moment I can afford it without fear of losing due to the sunk costs (usually just after third base finishes I think). I usually also am doing heavy harass to buy time until I have actual storms ready. Just be aware that right around this time is common for a Muta tech switch from the Zerg opponent. I lost a game to Catz the other day like this trying to go for HT, with my army threatening in the middle of the map. His mutas finished, and I didn't have anything to protect my probes.
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On October 20 2011 05:59 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 05:57 TechnoSchaman wrote:
jesus this is strong. I only watched 2 replays, and have played it three times now usually winning as my third gets up with that push with 2-4 archons.
Just curious (if its in replay lemme know which) when templar archive gets dropped in regards to third base. Is it as you get third, or after initial push or during push or what. I havent needed storm as Ive won with the initial push each time by dropping at his third or main, zerg 1As everything in there, and i just FF into/ out of their base and clean up.
But just curious on that timing Varies from game to game. I get it the moment I can afford it without fear of losing due to the sunk costs (usually just after third base finishes I think). I usually also am doing heavy harass to buy time until I have actual storms ready. Just be aware that right around this time is common for a Muta tech switch from the Zerg opponent. I lost a game to Catz the other day like this trying to go for HT, with my army threatening in the middle of the map. His mutas finished, and I didn't have anything to protect my probes.
I liked your shakuras game against mutas, i dont see many players put cannons in the mineral line, you had 3 in your main and it instantly scared mutas away allowing you the time to kill his third and win. Would this not be an appropriate response to muta tech switch, that or just an archon or two in each line. obviously takes supply away from your army but archon make mutas look silly
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On October 20 2011 06:02 TechnoSchaman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 05:59 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 20 2011 05:57 TechnoSchaman wrote:
jesus this is strong. I only watched 2 replays, and have played it three times now usually winning as my third gets up with that push with 2-4 archons.
Just curious (if its in replay lemme know which) when templar archive gets dropped in regards to third base. Is it as you get third, or after initial push or during push or what. I havent needed storm as Ive won with the initial push each time by dropping at his third or main, zerg 1As everything in there, and i just FF into/ out of their base and clean up.
But just curious on that timing Varies from game to game. I get it the moment I can afford it without fear of losing due to the sunk costs (usually just after third base finishes I think). I usually also am doing heavy harass to buy time until I have actual storms ready. Just be aware that right around this time is common for a Muta tech switch from the Zerg opponent. I lost a game to Catz the other day like this trying to go for HT, with my army threatening in the middle of the map. His mutas finished, and I didn't have anything to protect my probes. I liked your shakuras game against mutas, i dont see many players put cannons in the mineral line, you had 3 in your main and it instantly scared mutas away allowing you the time to kill his third and win. Would this not be an appropriate response to muta tech switch, that or just an archon or two in each line. obviously takes supply away from your army but archon make mutas look silly
Archons are super expensive and can be magic boxed. I only use them for defense occasionally. Cannons + Blink is my favorite defense. Times when I do use some Archons for Probe defense is when I have a really vulnerable flank, maybe my army has to be on one side of the map leaving my expansion very vulnerable; if I think mutas will surely hit that spot I'll warp in a round of DT and make some Archons.
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is magic box as effective as it is against thors though? archons still do 35 damage per shot against muta, so magic box would help but thats still massive damage. but god damn man i love you. i the only pvz ive lost out of my last 5 was when i tried to 1 gate expo and he ling all in'd me and my forcefields were bad. I honestly cant think of a unit comp that hard counters this. you will get me into masters and i will love you forever xD
edit: on a side note, could this build be adjusted to work against terran with charge instead of blink first, then getting blink afterwards, but doing a 2 archon push with chargelots sentry immortal?
just wondering
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From what I'm hearing going HT too early can lead to trouble.
Has anyone had success doing HT instead of DT to get archons, and skipping dt tech entirely? Templar archives costs less gas and builds twice as fast, so if the focus is archons it seems like the better choice. I also just shudder at spending 250/250 on an archon instead of 100/300. For the cost of 4 dt archons you can get 3 HT archons, 2 stalkers, 4 zealots, and a probe...
Is there any experience showing zealot/sentry drops for harass and quick HT for archon push is safe and effective?
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On October 28 2011 02:31 quillian wrote:
From what I'm hearing going HT too early can lead to trouble.
Has anyone had success doing HT instead of DT to get archons, and skipping dt tech entirely? Templar archives costs less gas and builds twice as fast, so if the focus is archons it seems like the better choice. I also just shudder at spending 250/250 on an archon instead of 100/300. For the cost of 4 dt archons you can get 3 HT archons, 2 stalkers, 4 zealots, and a probe...
Is there any experience showing zealot/sentry drops for harass and quick HT for archon push is safe and effective?
More and more I have been using HT to make archons for your reason - although its 50gas more, I feel I get more bang for my buck 
Especially when it comes to dealing with mutas, getting HT allows me to get storm and archons to hold them off. Also, I sometimes feel like DT harass is a little less effective these days simply cos I often see zerg just blindly put a spore down in each base. But thats ok, my harass is now warp prism drops thanks to Cecil and Noumena
I have found zealot/sentry drops devestasting so far as well. I drop 2zeals + 2 sentries, FF the drones instead, warp in a few more zealots, and murder drones and sometimes even snipe the lair because their army is on the other side of the map facing my main army
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ty for the build, ive been using this and a naniwa push recently in PvZ and PvZ is suddenly my best matchup (other than that pesky 6pool...seriously lol they can just keep pumping so many lings after it fails/breaks even) basically i use this on every map other than shakuras and even then i end up in a similar position midgame w/naniwa's opening (it was covered in a recent daily, its pretty much a 2immortal timing that kills Z 3rd followed by mass blink stalker except im throwing in archons w/that xD) immortal archon is soooo good PvZ til BL are out
the only thing i have problems with is a heavy roach hydra push, such as where he gets 12-20 hydras and the rest roaches to tank damage and just a-moves and wins
though im guessing i could theoretically just get storm faster vs that
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On October 29 2011 14:03 unit wrote:
ty for the build, ive been using this and a naniwa push recently in PvZ and PvZ is suddenly my best matchup (other than that pesky 6pool...seriously lol they can just keep pumping so many lings after it fails/breaks even) basically i use this on every map other than shakuras and even then i end up in a similar position midgame w/naniwa's opening (it was covered in a recent daily, its pretty much a 2immortal timing that kills Z 3rd followed by mass blink stalker except im throwing in archons w/that xD) immortal archon is soooo good PvZ til BL are out
the only thing i have problems with is a heavy roach hydra push, such as where he gets 12-20 hydras and the rest roaches to tank damage and just a-moves and wins
though im guessing i could theoretically just get storm faster vs that
Sounds like you need an earlier third if they're hitting you with that sort of unit comp with those numbers.
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Italy12247 Posts
I noticed you tend to warp in stalkers to harass with warp prisms, instead of zealots and/or dt's like other players (say, HerO). Is there a particular reason why you prefer stalkers?
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I've gotten another replay, had time to have a single ladder match today 
http://drop.sc/58206
-Use of units other than Stalkers in prism for a good amount of time.
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Made a video about this last night, placed it in the OP! Hopefully someone can find it useful - there's also another replay of me playing in the video description.
-> link
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I've been trying this out after getting your coaching. It's been pretty good so far, but micronutrient the harass while not falling behind on macro is definitely tough.
I find that if I lose a few too many stalkers or dt, I'm critically short on gas. But have a mineral excess. What do you do in that case? Just warp in a million zealots with the 2 prisms and wait for gas?
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On November 16 2011 11:15 Necrophantasia wrote:
I've been trying this out after getting your coaching. It's been pretty good so far, but micronutrient the harass while not falling behind on macro is definitely tough.
I find that if I lose a few too many stalkers or dt, I'm critically short on gas. But have a mineral excess. What do you do in that case? Just warp in a million zealots with the 2 prisms and wait for gas?
You should be taking your third base at this time.
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I love this build, been doing it a lot and win or lose, it's always fun to play. Apparently not for my opponents, since the amount of BM I get has skyrocketed, but it's great for me :p
One issue I'm having though is dealing with Mutas. I realize that blink stalker/archon is sort of the best possible way to deal with mutas that Protoss have, but in addition to shutting down my warp prism harass, I can't get my fat Archons through the Zealot sized hole in my wall. So if I build Archons at my nat, I can't defend my main effectively. Of course if I build them in my main, they're stuck there unless I destroy a building.
I realize this is a fairly minor problem and I should probably just kill my gateway if I scout mutas, but was curious if anyone else had found a better way to deal with this. Keep in mind that I'm doing the 1 gate expand variation, so I really do need to wall in my main.
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EPT
