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On November 18 2011 07:00 TrickyGilligan wrote:
I love this build, been doing it a lot and win or lose, it's always fun to play. Apparently not for my opponents, since the amount of BM I get has skyrocketed, but it's great for me :p
One issue I'm having though is dealing with Mutas. I realize that blink stalker/archon is sort of the best possible way to deal with mutas that Protoss have, but in addition to shutting down my warp prism harass, I can't get my fat Archons through the Zealot sized hole in my wall. So if I build Archons at my nat, I can't defend my main effectively. Of course if I build them in my main, they're stuck there unless I destroy a building.
I realize this is a fairly minor problem and I should probably just kill my gateway if I scout mutas, but was curious if anyone else had found a better way to deal with this. Keep in mind that I'm doing the 1 gate expand variation, so I really do need to wall in my main.
You honestly shouldn't really be relying on archons to defend your bases vs mutas. Storm is a lot more effective generally speaking.
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If you scout no roach tech should you still build immortals since they're pretty terrible against ling/muta, ling/hydra and ling/infestor? Can't you build an extra gate to supplement your army since you're not making immortals? That way you can either make more sentries or stalkers or zealots or even have an extra archon to add in your push.
Seems to me like the immortal part is a 'just in case' but with good scouting with the obs & warp prism you should be able to see the possibility of a tech switch before it hits, so would you suggest that any competent scouting player to stop immortal production against no-roach compositions? It just feels like such a mineral and gas sink to be worth the 'potential' of a tech switch by the zerg.
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On November 18 2011 07:12 MonkSEA wrote:
If you scout no roach tech should you still build immortals since they're pretty terrible against ling/muta, ling/hydra and ling/infestor? Can't you build an extra gate to supplement your army since you're not making immortals? That way you can either make more sentries or stalkers or zealots or even have an extra archon to add in your push.
Seems to me like the immortal part is a 'just in case' but with good scouting with the obs & warp prism you should be able to see the possibility of a tech switch before it hits, so would you suggest that any competent scouting player to stop immortal production against no-roach compositions? It just feels like such a mineral and gas sink to be worth the 'potential' of a tech switch by the zerg.
Yeah if there are zero Roaches, you don't want more than 2 Immortals. Trade your other Immortals for Zealots/Stalkers for sure. Just don't get caught against a hard Roach switch with no Immortals at all.
You also don't want to defend against Mutas with Archons - way too expensive and hard to get them back out of your base. Just defend with Cannons/Stalkers.
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On November 18 2011 07:12 MonkSEA wrote:
If you scout no roach tech should you still build immortals since they're pretty terrible against ling/muta, ling/hydra and ling/infestor? Can't you build an extra gate to supplement your army since you're not making immortals? That way you can either make more sentries or stalkers or zealots or even have an extra archon to add in your push.
Seems to me like the immortal part is a 'just in case' but with good scouting with the obs & warp prism you should be able to see the possibility of a tech switch before it hits, so would you suggest that any competent scouting player to stop immortal production against no-roach compositions? It just feels like such a mineral and gas sink to be worth the 'potential' of a tech switch by the zerg.
I thought so as well, but when trying it out, I find the immortals are really good at breaking down expansions or pushing through spines. There's been a few instances where I hit ling/muta and trying to take out 3rd expo. I focus the immortals on the expo and have the rest deal with the ling/muta and it works well. I notice a lot of people try and take out the lings/mutas and often end up doing little actual damage since the expo is still up and you can't really run away. 2 immo will take out the expo during the time that the engagement is going on.
This is at least my experience. I'm sure there are more optimized things to do.
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How do you think opening would be effected if you opened with 1stargate (off of FFE or 1gate FE), would it be for better or worse--assuming you followed the build to the letter after getting perhaps 1-2 voids out?
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On November 20 2011 08:05 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
How do you think opening would be effected if you opened with 1stargate (off of FFE or 1gate FE), would it be for better or worse--assuming you followed the build to the letter after getting perhaps 1-2 voids out?
That's three different tech paths. Also, the warp prism + Voidray roles overlap and create redundancy. You'd have to cut either the robo or the twilight.
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On November 20 2011 10:12 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 08:05 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
How do you think opening would be effected if you opened with 1stargate (off of FFE or 1gate FE), would it be for better or worse--assuming you followed the build to the letter after getting perhaps 1-2 voids out? That's three different tech paths. Also, the warp prism + Voidray roles overlap and create redundancy. You'd have to cut either the robo or the twilight.
Yeah, even if you manage to squeeze in the stargate with a voidray and pheonix or two, you delay the timing push and even counteract the weakness you are trying to expose -> detection. The build would be completely different if you chose this path, you would end up going more zealot/sentry heavy to start to balance out the tech switch, your third is a little more risky because you are not expanding while attacking due to unit composition (you rely on the small harass to keep the enemy army at home) and you most likely have to fall back on double robo immortals instead of single. By that point it is not worth morphing the dts into archons unless you plan to prolong their death. You will be more focused on teching psionic storm incase of muta or hydra play. Does not mean that this build is terrible, rather much harder to pull off.
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On November 20 2011 13:06 DanceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 10:12 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 20 2011 08:05 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
How do you think opening would be effected if you opened with 1stargate (off of FFE or 1gate FE), would it be for better or worse--assuming you followed the build to the letter after getting perhaps 1-2 voids out? That's three different tech paths. Also, the warp prism + Voidray roles overlap and create redundancy. You'd have to cut either the robo or the twilight. Yeah, even if you manage to squeeze in the stargate with a voidray and pheonix or two, you delay the timing push and even counteract the weakness you are trying to expose -> detection. The build would be completely different if you chose this path, you would end up going more zealot/sentry heavy to start to balance out the tech switch, your third is a little more risky because you are not expanding while attacking due to unit composition (you rely on the small harass to keep the enemy army at home) and you most likely have to fall back on double robo immortals instead of single. By that point it is not worth morphing the dts into archons unless you plan to prolong their death. You will be more focused on teching psionic storm incase of muta or hydra play. Does not mean that this build is terrible, rather much harder to pull off.
Nah man, you don't need to be so nice about it. Going all three tech paths on 2 base is terrible unless you're doing some strange tech switching cheese, like piqliq or ppgbubbles.
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I love the zerg's unit tab in the screenshot....
9 mutas, an overseer and 3 queens. Seems like in that game the opponent had already lost.
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On November 20 2011 13:57 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 13:06 DanceSC wrote:On November 20 2011 10:12 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 20 2011 08:05 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
How do you think opening would be effected if you opened with 1stargate (off of FFE or 1gate FE), would it be for better or worse--assuming you followed the build to the letter after getting perhaps 1-2 voids out? That's three different tech paths. Also, the warp prism + Voidray roles overlap and create redundancy. You'd have to cut either the robo or the twilight. Yeah, even if you manage to squeeze in the stargate with a voidray and pheonix or two, you delay the timing push and even counteract the weakness you are trying to expose -> detection. The build would be completely different if you chose this path, you would end up going more zealot/sentry heavy to start to balance out the tech switch, your third is a little more risky because you are not expanding while attacking due to unit composition (you rely on the small harass to keep the enemy army at home) and you most likely have to fall back on double robo immortals instead of single. By that point it is not worth morphing the dts into archons unless you plan to prolong their death. You will be more focused on teching psionic storm incase of muta or hydra play. Does not mean that this build is terrible, rather much harder to pull off. Nah man, you don't need to be so nice about it. Going all three tech paths on 2 base is terrible unless you're doing some strange tech switching cheese, like piqliq or ppgbubbles.
lol it is very aggressive, but on 2 base yes very terrible. You need the third base and it is risky because your aggression needs to be effective hence why it is hard to pull off. I saw hero do a similar build with the zealot / sentry composition, used stargate to harass and put down 2 robotics for immortals against heavy roach composition. Only difference is he tech'd the templar archives instead of the dark shrine first, but that was a reaction to the hydralisks, the dts came into play later.
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GREAT guide, thanks, and as in the zerg's point o view also, how would you deal with mass hydralisk?
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On November 20 2011 15:03 Unsinkable wrote:
GREAT guide, thanks, and as in the zerg's point o view also, how would you deal with mass hydralisk?
Chargelot archon has worked for me really well, just be sure to not get caught by a hard roach switch.
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Yeah, Yeah and once again Yeah - doing this style feels just right and i love it man.. You saved my PvZ  Thanks alot for this guide you are the man !
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a lot zergs are favoring the mutalisk ling base trade style of play.
how does your playstyle interact with this playstyle?
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On January 15 2012 21:01 Gamegene wrote:
a lot zergs are favoring the mutalisk ling base trade style of play.
how does your playstyle interact with this playstyle?
If you trade the Dark Shrine for a Templar Archives, then very well.
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hmmm what to do with this style vs zling baneling late 3rd? Just take 3rd and macro or is it possible to kill a zerg w/ baneling bombs?
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banelings are terrible vs immortals and archons, both are key units in this build. this is basically the hardcounter to any baneling strategy.#
Cool style anyways, have you experimented with a FFE opening, beeing able to chrono nonstop upgrades while going for some similar dt / archon / immortal timing?
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On February 19 2012 08:45 weikor wrote:
banelings are terrible vs immortals and archons, both are key units in this build. this is basically the hardcounter to any baneling strategy.#
Cool style anyways, have you experimented with a FFE opening, beeing able to chrono nonstop upgrades while going for some similar dt / archon / immortal timing?
Well.....When i'm executing the 2 archon push (with 7/8 gate instead of nexus) he doesn't even have a 3rd, just a ton of banelings in overlords....seems to me no matter how well i split i always die  Just wondering about the correct response
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On February 19 2012 10:05 CodECleaR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 08:45 weikor wrote:
banelings are terrible vs immortals and archons, both are key units in this build. this is basically the hardcounter to any baneling strategy.#
Cool style anyways, have you experimented with a FFE opening, beeing able to chrono nonstop upgrades while going for some similar dt / archon / immortal timing? Well.....When i'm executing the 2 archon push (with 7/8 gate instead of nexus) he doesn't even have a 3rd, just a ton of banelings in overlords....seems to me no matter how well i split i always die Just wondering about the correct response
If there is no third base you don't have to commit to the push. Instead you can take the middle of the map and then expand. Then, wait to engage with hallu/more archons.
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EPT
