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CvZ : Modern Blink Immortal Templar [ PvZ ]
--> Double Archon Timing
Revision [ 1 ]
Overview
Over the past couple months I've been playing with my own style. I really wanted to try out my own ideas that I honestly thought would be really fun to play, with a goal of having a style that has a high skill ceiling. All Zerg players should be very comfortable playing against Colossus compositions nowadays, and there's honestly only so much you can do with a Colossus centric army. I focus on a composition that revolves around Blink/Immortals/Archons (and later HT).
Imagine you have Immortals in PvZ. What are they bad against? Lings, Mutalisks, and Broodlords (most things are bad against Broodlords though). So, if you want to make Immortals, what unit would have great synergy with them? Archons of course! Imagine an army in PvZ made with Archon/Immortals. This army is extremely tough (given that zealots and sentries are present as well), but sadly rather immobile. I haven't solved my problem of getting away from using those boring Colossus!
Blink and Warp Prism. These are your tools. Use them and love them. Blink grants your army a highly mobile option, and warp prism allows great versatility as well. In my style, which was happily dubbed CvZ one day on my stream by one of my fans (Cecil vs Zerg haha) your play will focus around Immortal/Archon/Blink/DT/Warp Prism. Throw in Voidrays and/or HT in the late game, depending on what tech the opponent goes for.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/czieh.png) Executing a strong push once the double Archons finish.
Choose your Opening
Really, go ahead and choose your favorite opening! Any! As long as it puts you at least on equal footing with the Zerg's economy. My absolute favorite opening is a 1 Gate FE, so I'll briefly cover it.
- Pylon
- Gate
- Assimilator
- Pylon
- Cybernetics
- Zealot
- Assimilator (2)
- Stalker or Sentry
This is the basic opening pathway for most Protoss openings in all matchups. If you cannot do this without perfection, then go practice it in YABOT until you can. Next you do the following:
- Pylon
- Nexus
- Gate -> At Nat
- Gate -> At Nat
- Make Sentries non-stop from your 1 single Gateway
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GJqkb.png) Try using this very cool sim-city! Er.. Well that's not the best place for the Zealot 
The Gameplan
Here is the really interesting part. After your three Gateways are up and you Saturate your Natural with about 16 probes on minerals, you place either a Robotics Facility or Twilight Council. Twilight Council first is great for fast DT, which is good if the opponent is delaying Lair tech and staying in Ling Baneling. It's also a good way to win a lot of fast ladder games with fast DT tech. Just be sure to research Blink before any large engagements, if you can help it.
Robotics Facility first is more standard an much safer, as such I recommend it. Once you lay the Robotics Facility, chrono out 1 Observer followed up with either one or two Warp Prisms. These Warp Prisms are going to do wonders for you if you use them well. They will allow you to tech to Blink and DT while taking a third base - you can even take an early third base on a lot of maps.
This Warp Prism needs to be used in a specific way. Here are the priorities for the Warp Prism in descending order starting with the highest priority:
- Do not lose any gas units (zealots are okay), and especially don't lose the Prism!
- Show active presence to the Zerg player.
- Kill enemy units (drones!).
Very simple! What this sort of priority schema will do is it will force the Zerg player's attention onto the prism, and keep the prism as a constant threat. Every moment the Zerg player does not have defending forces in place to fend off the Warp Prism, show presence and land units. Warp in some Zealots -you can afford to lose a few here and there! This keeps a large amount of the Zerg's forces on the opposite side of the map, giving a much easier time to take your third base.
On more open maps like Tal'Darim you should chrono out two Warp Prisms and harass two locations constantly! You should also do this on maps where a three base Zerg is very spread out (Xel'Naga Caverns, Shakuras Plateau if they take the edge base).
It is essential to show at least one Warp Prism in order for you to not fall behind economically. Otherwise you won't have a fighting force with your two Archons until about 12 minutes into the game, which is much much too late.
After you lay your Robotics Facility and order your Warp Prism, lay down your Twilight council, immediately followed by 2 more Gateways. You need the additional Gateways to keep up with your 2 base full saturation. Once the Twilight Council finishes you should have about 3-7 Stalkers, 6-9 Sentries, and an amount of Zealots. Start researching Blink as soon as you can afford it. Continue Stalker production in order to have a nice bulk of Stalkers to make use of Blink (about 8-14 Stalkers).
Next you need to save up a bit of Vespene, so I recommend taking a third base, or warping in a lot of Zealots. This vespene is for DT tech followed by Dark Templar. Keep in mind you should have had a good amount of action with your Warp Prism(s) at this point in time!
Now here should be your current setup: 5 Gateways, 1 Robotics Facility, Blink, and DT tech. Start Chronoboosting out Immortals. Once DT Tech finishes, warp in 4 Dark Templar and morph them into Archons, and if you have the resources place some DT around the map.
You now have an excellent infrastructure to produce a very scary army! You have Immortals, which are excellent against Roaches and Ultralisks, you have Archons which are good against everything except Brood Lords -and exceptionally good against Ling/Muta, you have Blink Stalkers for Mobility and core army supplementation, and Warp Prism/DT which has great harass synergy! All of these types of units work extremely well together and have amazing synergy!
Now you might have been wondering what this Double Archon business is about. Well the moment your Dark Shrine finishes is the moment when your army is "complete", and at this time you just so happen to always have enough resources for 2 Archons. I find it's a really great timing where the army value of your army spikes sharply, and often times I simply win the game at this point due to the Warp Prism harass slowing the Zerg player down so so much. With your Double Archon timing, you should have somewhere around 15 Stalkers, 6-10 Sentries, 2-4 Immortals, and 2 Archons with a rabble of Zealots.
Once your third is complete (often times around or just before the Archons finish, you can support 2 Forges 3-4 more Gateways and another Robotics Facility. You need two Robotics Facilities at this point in the game to replenish Observers, Warp Prisms, and Immortals. If you feel these Forges are a little too late, you can simply delay the timing of your Blink by a minute or so and research +1 attack (around the time you lay the Twilight). I do this very often.
Summary:
- Opening to Three Gates (FFE is acceptable, I included a FFE replay).
- Robo -> Obs -> Warp Prism(s)
- Twilight Council
- +2 Gateways
- Blink
- DT Tech
- Third Base + Immortals + Stalker/Zealots
- @100% Dark Shrine 2 Archons + DT Harass
- If you are ahead of your opponent, the 2 Archon timing will likely secure a win!
- @3 Bases have: 2 Forges; Templar Archives (going for Storm)
- If Broodlords : Blink Stalkers OR Voidrays (Voidray/HT/Immortal is basically unbeatable!)
Notes for Engagements
There is really only one time of engagement that will take some practice, other than practicing general good PvZ engagements, and that is against an Infestor count of 5+. Against Infestors, it's best to Blink a small group of Stalkers onto the Infestors and snipe the ones with the most energy. I tried exemplifying this in one replay against engulfSAGA and misclicked and Blinked all my Stalkers forward, and didn't pick off any Infestors. This is bad!
When you engage Roach/Ling/Infestor you need to try to FF the Infestors away from your army as best you can, and space your army about as best you can. Once the enemy's Infestors are away from the core army roach/ling, then is the time to blink a group of 5-7 Stalkers at them and pick off 2-3. This will reduce the Fungal count immensely and also force down wasted fungals on your small group of Stalkers. Also Immortals and Archons take a lot of damage to die from a fungal, so fungal isn't very effective against them -Archons also deal hardly any damage to Immortals/Stalkers if neural parasited!
It takes some practice, so play with a friend in a unit tester for a bit with equal food counts! I assure you the battle will come out even. Just be sure to have less Immortals if no roaches, in favor of Archons!
Important Notes
I've had a tough time against very heavy Hydralisk counts. This is due to a delayed AoE tech of Storm or Colossus. If spotted, it's best to immediately tech switch to Chargelot/Archon and head towards Storm asap! It's also important to stay on top of your upgrades, go double Forge if you have to (three base or higher)!
Against pure roach or macro roach, I simply get a second Robotics Facility before my third base, and favor a lot more Immortals. Similarly, against very little to no Roaches, get less Immortals more Archons/Stalkers/DT. Just don't be afraid to make Immortals if you see no Roaches at all! You need to have at least two in the event of a tech switch from the Zerg player. You'll see in my replays that I always have a few Immortals in my composition - that's because they cannot be hard countered. Immortals are just good against everything except ling/muta, which the Archons and later HT make up for! Immortals are even pretty dang good against a large Hydra count (it should be noted that against pure hydralisk compositions Chargelot Archon should be created with fast HT/Storm).
Don't be inactive with your Warp prisms! Remember, this style is intended to have a high skill ceiling, so push yourself to your limits! It's going to give all lower-tier players a great chance to improve themselves since it requires a higher degree of skill than low-apm deathballish play.
It should be noted once more that you don't need to deal a giant amount of damage with the warp prisms. It's more important that you show its presence and keep it as a threat, than trying to deal some damage while losing the prism altogether. However, if you lose the prism to mutas (happens to me all the time), well now you know mutas are on the map earlier than usual.
Replays
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Great read! I am looking forward to testing this out!
My PvZ has been suffering lately and i've been looking for a way to change up my play.
Thanks for the thread 
P.S I'm method
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ty for the guide!
I really like these for sentry-light styles that allow for more bw-esque style fights and multitasking with the WP. will grind this out and add it to my pvz tool belt ^^
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as a Zerg, I have to say colossus play is still the most threatening style that most toss seems to abandoned now in flavor for 6 gate all in etc.
personally I like this build because it actually requires the toss to do something more than just turtling and push out to hope for a win, using warp prism is extremely welcomed for me since it makes the game more interesting (I won't feel as bad when I lose to these toss players)
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On October 11 2011 15:24 Alejandrisha wrote:
ty for the guide!
I really like these for sentry-light styles that allow for more bw-esque style fights and multitasking with the WP. will grind this out and add it to my pvz tool belt ^^
Sentry light style? This build gets 10 sentries... o.o
Anyway downloading reps and checking out now! :D
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you're so good. these replays just make me think that you're just better than the people you're playing lol
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On October 11 2011 15:38 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 15:24 Alejandrisha wrote:
ty for the guide!
I really like these for sentry-light styles that allow for more bw-esque style fights and multitasking with the WP. will grind this out and add it to my pvz tool belt ^^ Sentry light style? This build gets 10 sentries... o.o Anyway downloading reps and checking out now! :D
IMO any non-colossus style outside of straight stalker/immortal or blinkstalkers is less sentry dependent and thus sentry light just because of the way you have to engage with compositions that rely on not taking any damage. With a build that utilizes chargelots your not constantly buffering the entire mass of roaches so your units don't take any damage so you have less need for ff's in mid game engagements
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Interesting...... Infestors might be a tad scary, but you can get HTs with feedback easily with this comp.
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Hm, interesting. Why the DT's instead of HT's? Would you advise using HT's instead of DT's for the archons if you can tell that DT's wouldn't do any damage? Or are HT's simply too gas intensive for the build?
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On October 11 2011 15:52 Xxazn4lyfe51xX wrote:
Hm, interesting. Why the DT's instead of HT's? Would you advise using HT's instead of DT's for the archons if you can tell that DT's wouldn't do any damage? Or are HT's simply too gas intensive for the build?
DT because I like DT tech more than HT tech. DT tech doesn't rely on hitting good FF, and also is a little less vespene intensive.
On October 11 2011 15:43 caradoc wrote:
Interesting...... Infestors might be a tad scary, but you can get HTs with feedback easily with this comp.
No actually, Archons are just really good vs Infestors. I don't like HT too early tbh.
On October 11 2011 15:38 yoonshik95 wrote:
you're so good. these replays just make me think that you're just better than the people you're playing lol
That might be. My mmr has been spiking really hard lately.
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On October 11 2011 15:52 Xxazn4lyfe51xX wrote:
Hm, interesting. Why the DT's instead of HT's? Would you advise using HT's instead of DT's for the archons if you can tell that DT's wouldn't do any damage? Or are HT's simply too gas intensive for the build?
I thought he seemed like his gas was pretty high during the first replay (only one I watched).
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So I watched the reps, and while I love your warp prism harass (especially the game on tal darim), I'm not convinced that archons actually help you/this build that much. In all the games you were already really far ahead from early game warp prism and/or dt harass and/or successful muta defense, and you were just able to roll over the zerg with a superior army. The only battle where it was an equal army fight, the zerg army was a muta/ling army which of course cannot win a straight up battle against an equal protoss army. In a more standard game where the zerg handles the harass better, the zerg will almost always have a superior army to yours, and in that case I'm not sure how you will fare.
The reason why IMO archons aren't so good is because they're kinda like zealots - melee units that don't synergize well with the main core of stalker/immortal/sentry(ff) which focuses on not getting hit. Even against muta/ling, I find that archons only do "ok." Not great at all. I wouldn't even consider archons a counter to lings or mutas. In my experience pure stalker with some zealots actually does better against muta/ling than stalker/archon/zealot in a mid-game battle for the cost - even more so if the zerg then tech switches to roaches.
That's not to say that you shouldn't get archons - because actually it makes perfect sense for your build to get those archons, DTs are great for harass especially with your warp prism play, and if you have extra gas why not make archons? It's better than DTs in your army or nothing in your army and extra gas in the bank.
I will note however that archons get better as the game goes on since although they are not as cost efficient as stalkers, they are much more supply efficient. If you can save your immortals/archons and not let them die, you will eventually end up with a really scary deathball.
So I guess my point is great build, misleading title! The power from your build does not come from archons, instead it comes from:
1) warp prism harass eventually with DTs as well
2) relatively fast twilight and robo, which gives you a very versatile army composition, blink/sentry/immortal is always good. none of this useless stargate business (I cringe every time I see people laud the wonders of protoss FE > stargate)
Change the title to "CvZ: Modern Blink Immortal Templar" or maybe just "How to play PvZ without opening stargate" :p
Oh and also, I highly recommend trying to incorporate more HT into your play, maybe not immediately but at least after you get a 3rd base up. I don't know why you hate HT so much, storm is sooo good.
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On October 11 2011 16:20 Anihc wrote:
So I watched the reps, and while I love your warp prism harass (especially the game on tal darim), I'm not convinced that archons actually help you/this build that much. In all the games you were already really far ahead from early game warp prism and/or dt harass and/or successful muta defense, and you were just able to roll over the zerg with a superior army. The only battle where it was an equal army fight, the zerg army was a muta/ling army which of course cannot win a straight up battle against an equal protoss army. In a more standard game where the zerg handles the harass better, the zerg will almost always have a superior army to yours, and in that case I'm not sure how you will fare.
The reason why IMO archons aren't so good is because they're kinda like zealots - melee units that don't synergize well with the main core of stalker/immortal/sentry(ff) which focuses on not getting hit. Even against muta/ling, I find that archons only do "ok." Not great at all. I wouldn't even consider archons a counter to lings or mutas. In my experience pure stalker with some zealots actually does better against muta/ling than stalker/archon/zealot in a mid-game battle for the cost - even more so if the zerg then tech switches to roaches.
That's not to say that you shouldn't get archons - because actually it makes perfect sense for your build to get those archons, DTs are great for harass especially with your warp prism play, and if you have extra gas why not make archons? It's better than DTs in your army or nothing in your army and extra gas in the bank.
I will note however that archons get better as the game goes on since although they are not as cost efficient as stalkers, they are much more supply efficient. If you can save your immortals/archons and not let them die, you will eventually end up with a really scary deathball.
So I guess my point is great build, misleading title! The power from your build does not come from archons, instead it comes from:
1) warp prism harass eventually with DTs as well
2) relatively fast twilight and blink, which gives you a very versatile army composition, blink/sentry/immortal is always good. none of this useless stargate business (I cringe every time I see people laud the wonders of protoss FE > stargate)
Change the title to "CvZ: Modern Blink Immortal Templar" or maybe just "How to play PvZ without opening stargate" :p
Oh and also, I highly recommend trying to incorporate more HT into your play, maybe not immediately but at least after you get a 3rd base up. I don't know why you hate HT so much, storm is sooo good.
Yeah I think you're right on all your points! I manage with Archons now, but once my MMR stabilizes more in the near future, faster HT are likely to be seen. I was told HuK has been doing basically what I detailed above except DT -> HT. I still however really like the timing when you get those two Archons!
I don't hate HT, I just haven't had a defined time in which I need to incorporate them. It's of course after 3 base currently however.
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Cecil,
Your guides have been absolutely amazing! Love your protoss innovation and idealogy to making the game more interesting
I will be trying this out and hopefully this can help me better my game mechanics on top of my general play
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Great guide !
Going to try that out later. However i think if you are already going to build Archons, build a mothership as well in case you scout the Zerg goin Broodlords. No need to actually include it in the build or even build it early, but with already a decent amount of Archons in the late game Archon toilet would make you demolish Broodlord based armies so bad.
Immortal + Archons should be able to crush Ultra tech as well, which would make both Zerg T3 hardcounterd if scouted a bit in advance.
On Paper it sounds like a really really strong compostion that has answers to everything.
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I like your style, since i've been doing a similar style for a while. I usually go for 1gate fe (one gas, then nexus, then 2nd gas, add forge and then 2 more gates for 8min +1 push while teching up to robo/twilight or only a 2nd gate and getting twilight+dts sooner or similar (comes barely in time vs roach-ling push)) with zealot-doublestalker chronoboosted pressure. Also getting +2 attack asap and blink usually slightly delayed after getting dark shrine or robo unless i see all signs of fast mutas incoming.
So what I'm personally missing here is your upgrades, they come when you take your 3rd and then double ups. Attack upgrades just make your army in pvz so much stronger and since i opt for fast twilight here like you do, I think it totally makes sense rushing to +3 attack (most of cb dumped on it after first few used on probes). They help immensily vs any unit combination the zerg can go for. However, armor and shield upgrades can be helpful and good, but only vs heavy ling, mutas or broodlords. Against other units these upgrades don't make much difference in battle. Maybe you can try this out for yourself, and if you see them going for units where these upgrades help a lot, just add a 2nd forge later to get armor and shield at the same time. If they however go for roach-hydra, roach-infestor, roach-bane or similar, attack is enough and you can just use that forge all game long without a break to get your upgrades going (after reaching +3 attack start others ofc, not before).
I think if you skip one of your two archons and get +2 attack instead (finishes around 11:30 if you do it like me), your army would be much stronger and sets for a much better mid-lategame after your 12min push.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
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Um, you're just a LOT better than the players you are facing.
However... this just flat out loses to Roach/Hydra off of 3 base. You delay storm tech and Colossi.... yeah I can't see you beating a basic Roach Hydra composition that keeps up on upgrades.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
"CvZ: Modern Blink Immortal Templar" Mmmm  where did you hear that before cecil?
Besides, I think this is vulnerable to a number of Zerg strategies (macro roach, hydras, a good mutaling) - if they hold off your harass without significant loss then the game is over I think.
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this is a really awesome guide, I am struggling in PvZ horribly right now (high plat dying to be diamond) and I am going to make this my go to build I think.
I like how it has a high skill cap (warp prisms) hopefully this will help me to improve my multi tasking and my win / loss vs zerg. I really like how this build appears to be safe in the early game and surprises your enemy with a strong attack that leaves you free to expand behind it. The warp prism is so much more versatile than I realized. I never thought to use it to save units taking fire and let them regen some shields, the health buff makes that possible now.
Question :: in game one had you taken more damage in the first or second zergling attack and he was able to get the mutas out, do you feel that you would be vulnerable to them? I didn't see any mention of mutas at all in the guide, and it appears this timing comes a few min after they would be able to be harassing your base with them. How does this factor into shutting down your warp prism play, would you just go with more blink stalkers + archons and get storm quicker, or colo?
Awesome guide!
edit :: (Take a look at game 2 and how many drones that guy has at his main / natural, wow!)
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Thanks for the guide. I've been trying to look for a way to utilise Stalker/Templar/Immortal in my PvZs and this is really helpful.
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I have a question: how do you deal with Broodlords? Are Voidrays necessary or Blink Stalkers are enough?
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On October 11 2011 20:01 Flonomenalz wrote:
Um, you're just a LOT better than the players you are facing.
However... this just flat out loses to Roach/Hydra off of 3 base. You delay storm tech and Colossi.... yeah I can't see you beating a basic Roach Hydra composition that keeps up on upgrades.
The metagame has moved pretty far away from roach/hydra, i think with the fast observers it would be very easy to change the gameplan if your opponent goes for pure roach/hydra, get faster colossus, grab a third and turtle to a bigger army.
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On October 11 2011 22:00 Snusdosa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 20:01 Flonomenalz wrote:
Um, you're just a LOT better than the players you are facing.
However... this just flat out loses to Roach/Hydra off of 3 base. You delay storm tech and Colossi.... yeah I can't see you beating a basic Roach Hydra composition that keeps up on upgrades. The metagame has moved pretty far away from roach/hydra, i think with the fast observers it would be very easy to change the gameplan if your opponent goes for pure roach/hydra, get faster colossus, grab a third and turtle to a bigger army.
I disagree the the metagame is moving away from roach hydra... as a matter of fact, i see less and less toss players use colossi in their unit comp. Also, it's easier for zerg to tech switch if the player's smart about how he/she is getting the upgrades.
Also, this is just a standard unit comp that counters muta ling. infestor roach, roach hydra, and even roach ling can counter this without much difficulty... throw in a few corruptors to counter warp prisms if you can (toss is getting so much tech that it might not be too hard to throw down a spire without getting behind).
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 11 2011 22:11 .Sic. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 22:00 Snusdosa wrote:On October 11 2011 20:01 Flonomenalz wrote:
Um, you're just a LOT better than the players you are facing.
However... this just flat out loses to Roach/Hydra off of 3 base. You delay storm tech and Colossi.... yeah I can't see you beating a basic Roach Hydra composition that keeps up on upgrades. The metagame has moved pretty far away from roach/hydra, i think with the fast observers it would be very easy to change the gameplan if your opponent goes for pure roach/hydra, get faster colossus, grab a third and turtle to a bigger army. I disagree the the metagame is moving away from roach hydra... as a matter of fact, i see less and less toss players use colossi in their unit comp. Also, it's easier for zerg to tech switch if the player's smart about how he/she is getting the upgrades. Also, this is just a standard unit comp that counters muta ling. infestor roach, roach hydra, and even roach ling can counter this without much difficulty... throw in a few corruptors to counter warp prisms if you can (toss is getting so much tech that it might not be too hard to throw down a spire without getting behind).
How would roaches be good vs a build that gets fast blink/immortal, and eventually double robo immortal?
Anyway, cool stuff. I have been trying to get a decent immortal/templar pvz build for a long time, and so far the attempts at coming up with my own builds are pretty awful Thanks a lot for all your guides!
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On October 11 2011 15:11 CecilSunkure wrote:
Imagine you have Immortals in PvZ. What are they bad against? Lings, Mutalisks, and Broodlords (most things are bad against Broodlords though). So, if you want to make Immortals, what unit would have great synergy with them? Archons of course! Imagine an army in PvZ made with Archon/Immortals. This army is extremely tough
um..i'm just a diamond newbie, but aren't you forgetting about hydras? They are great counter to every of your three units.
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On October 11 2011 22:27 ondik wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 15:11 CecilSunkure wrote:
Imagine you have Immortals in PvZ. What are they bad against? Lings, Mutalisks, and Broodlords (most things are bad against Broodlords though). So, if you want to make Immortals, what unit would have great synergy with them? Archons of course! Imagine an army in PvZ made with Archon/Immortals. This army is extremely tough
um..i'm just a diamond newbie, but aren't you forgetting about hydras? They are great counter to every of your three units.
He mentions this in his OP.
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lol this looks like my standard PvZ, only I delay the blink and pump out immortals first, use the dark templar to scout and harass. And the warp prison is used to scatter drop zealots at expansions and warp in units behind the natural mineral line while the army pokes at the zerg natural entrance.
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On October 11 2011 22:27 ondik wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 15:11 CecilSunkure wrote:
Imagine you have Immortals in PvZ. What are they bad against? Lings, Mutalisks, and Broodlords (most things are bad against Broodlords though). So, if you want to make Immortals, what unit would have great synergy with them? Archons of course! Imagine an army in PvZ made with Archon/Immortals. This army is extremely tough
um..i'm just a diamond newbie, but aren't you forgetting about hydras? They are great counter to every of your three units.
You would think they would, but 3 immortals will tear through a hydra line with the sentry shield and if you scatter force fields to prevent a concave. They either 2 hit or 3 hit hydras, i think it is 2 hit with +2 weapons but i'll have to verify
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Definitely like this style, was looking for a good overview of it. Thanks! =D
Although, personally, i've died to mass roach/hydra so many times while trying this that I think teching to HT right after you get your third would be a good plan. Aoe is needed a little sooner I think.
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I disagree the the metagame is moving away from roach hydra... as a matter of fact, i see less and less toss players use colossi in their unit comp. Also, it's easier for zerg to tech switch if the player's smart about how he/she is getting the upgrades.
Yeah less toss players are going straight to gateway + colossus, but compare ZvP now versus ZvP 5-6 months ago, it was nothing by roach/hydra/corruptor, nowadays we have a lot more ling play, banelings are seeing use as well and infestors are extremely common as well.
Also, this is just a standard unit comp that counters muta ling. infestor roach, roach hydra, and even roach ling can counter this without much difficulty... throw in a few corruptors to counter warp prisms if you can (toss is getting so much tech that it might not be too hard to throw down a spire without getting behind).
The only comp that would be able to counter this is roach/hydra. You need the hydra dps vs the archons and the immortals, fungal doesn't deal neatly enough damage to those two units, and roaches get crushed by this unit composition. Roach ling no, forcefields.
Get a spire and corruptors because of two potential warp prisms? Thats like getting phoenixes strictly to prevent medivacs.
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On October 11 2011 20:10 Plexa wrote:Mmmm where did you hear that before cecil? Besides, I think this is vulnerable to a number of Zerg strategies (macro roach, hydras, a good mutaling) - if they hold off your harass without significant loss then the game is over I think.
Hhaha yeah..
Although against macro roaches, you just get a Second Robo before your third. Walla ez win. Against Hydras I go Chargelot Archon DT, and crush players (I also favor more upgrades), and try to get HT/Storm asap. I've faired just fine so far.
And to everyone saying I'm just a lot better than my opponents, well these guys are pretty high on NA ladder, so if you mimic my play currently seen in these replays you'll hit the top few hundred of NA at least.
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I agree with some of the above posters about considering the usefulness of those early archons as well as starting your upgrades a lot earlier. I would also consider getting your Warp Prism(s) first instead of an Observer as you can harass earlier which in itself scouts your opponent if you drop in his main.
I've also been favoring a non-Colossi centric PvZ-style, but instead use a heavier Zealot composition instead of Stalkers and Sentries. This frees up the gas to get HT and upgrades much faster so you don't need to get a 3rd base to afford them. Zealot-Immortal is very effective vs mass Roach and the fast HT completely stomps the common Zerg response of a Hydra tech switch which you say catches you off-guard at times.
The fast upgrades also makes your Zealot harass much more effective. With optimal timing I can be in the Zerg's main with a Prism, +1/+1 done and 7 Warp Gates ready at 9 mins out of a FFE(usually a little later than that because who can ever get optimal timings down in a real game). This timing for this harass is IMO crucial if you see only lings as early defense since this is right before his tech kicks in (mutas or infestors) on 2-base, and you can do serious damage with +1/+1 Zealots if they only have lings available to defend (also gets around the gazillion spine crawlers they usually have at their front when going mutaling or infestorling ^^).
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A lot of comments or questions asked so far on in the OP. Against Hydras: the composition works (albeit I'll add a clarification). Against a ridiculous amount of Hydras, chareglot archon (guardian shield implicit).
If you don't like cutting upgrades till 3 base, you can delay blink by about a minute and go for a Forge before Twilight! I do this very often! With a FFE, you better be getting upgrades and chronoing them hard (like my Tal'Darim replay).
This is more of a style of play, not necessarily a build inscribed in the Tablets of Moses. As such it's versatile. All my builds I play with are highly versatile as of late. Even my PvP is highly versatile.
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On October 12 2011 03:44 CecilSunkure wrote:
This is more of a style of play, not necessarily a build inscribed in the Tablets of Moses. As such it's versatile. All my builds I play with are highly versatile as of late. Even my PvP is highly versatile.
Which is imho very good due to how a game of SC eventually wont be "Player X makes these units and attack and win/loose the game" as we can see more and more as time pass by and players improve.
I've been toying around with similar builds in the past and indeed hydras was a often a big problem, aswell as good muta play. Yes blink is good, but nothing shuts down mapcontrol like some neat phoenix play, which is a reason why I have a hard time to steer away from my double stargate zealot/(immo) into templar play.
Regardless, I'm taking away alot from this guide, like with most of your guides and thank you for it <3!
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I've been really unsuccessful with my PvZ as of late, this looks like a lot of fun and successful. Thanks for the build, Cecil! Your guides are always awesome and well thought out.
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I belive this is what Nani used some time ago. I have a vague memory of him vs ret in TSL3 when he went immo+blink+storm.
strong build/composition!
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PRO-TIP:
If you research hallucination, you can fake a moderate number colossus (1-3) and go poke the xel naga towers/ clear out creep, and this should fool the zerg enough to keep them from massing up hydras
works like a charm for me
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I feel like this warp prizm play is gonna be shut down hard when zergs start patrolling coruptors. Is there any way you could use pheonix to replace the wp harrass?
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On October 12 2011 07:10 Lore-Fighting wrote:
I feel like this warp prizm play is gonna be shut down hard when zergs start patrolling coruptors. Is there any way you could use pheonix to replace the wp harrass?
I would call having some useless 150/100 AA units patrolling his base to stop a 200mineral unit, a success for me.
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Very nice guide, I'll have to try this sometime!
Just a little note about unit compositions:
I've been using hero(?) style that I've modified (5-7 gate blink stalker pressure into (10-12 min) third base -> HT + Warp Prism harrass -> endgame chargelot archon immortal HT w/ a bit of blink) and I've found that blink stalker + high templar gives more ability to harrass before warp prisms, and imo greater defensive capability with storm than archons can provide (FF + storm = great def, especially with a wall!)
Of course this doesn't lead to a direct engagement until alot later, but is more 'harrasy' imo.
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On October 12 2011 07:10 Lore-Fighting wrote:
I feel like this warp prizm play is gonna be shut down hard when zergs start patrolling coruptors. Is there any way you could use pheonix to replace the wp harrass?
That's a pretty strange statement. If you force a Corrupter with a 200 mineral unit, I'd take that anyday everyday.
No you cannot replace with Phoenixes. Warp prisms cost only minerals, and can warp things in. Phoenixes cannot do that, and are a very heavy investment. No Stargate units allowed.
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On October 11 2011 20:01 Flonomenalz wrote:
Um, you're just a LOT better than the players you are facing.
However... this just flat out loses to Roach/Hydra off of 3 base. You delay storm tech and Colossi.... yeah I can't see you beating a basic Roach Hydra composition that keeps up on upgrades.
I'm not too sure, if you keep up in upgrades (which can easily be done if you get an early twilight council, where combined with cb you get get an insanely fast +3 attack) you will have +2 attack and blink done for sure around the time roach/hydra can attack you from 3 base. Stalker/Sentry/Immortal with good ff and blink usage and good attack upgrades can beat this pretty well in my experience, yes you could have otherwise have one colossus out already and 2nd on the way or similar, but then again you wouldn't have blink yet and +2 attack ...
Ofc you need aoe as well, but basically instead of robo bay + thermalance you invest in +2 attack and blink in the meantime, works for me. If I did understand Cecil right he usually likes to opt for double ups when he gets his 3rd up and running from opening 1gate fe and attack upgrades from the forge from ffe mostly because the synergy is nice there, but he tries to adjust based on the game itself. If you see compositoins like roach/hydra or roach/infestor though, i wouldn't get any archons, they just don't do enough vs them. They end up in the front and die quickly, while with stalker/sentry/immo you can blink hurt stalkers back and have more range on your units to abuse ff + chokes while teching up to colossi (or ht if you can take quick 3rd and have the gas for it).
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i did really liked this write.
sadly i did loss all of my games soo far with this build.Still can see some fantasy in it,
so i will keep try ti get used it more maybe i will have succes than.
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I really like the concept here. If you see my sig you will know my background in sc2 and I am so lost in the matchups right now... the mid game of this build really appeals to the skills I grew as a macro Terran.
Gonna check out your replays now and then practice it with a friend. If I don't make a complete ass out of it I'll post the replays up.
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I really enjoyed it Cecil, here is a replay of me trying it out in mid masters ladder NA:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/14267
I think it was pretty effective, I felt I had control the whole game aside from some minor firefighting efforts. I think his muta switch was questionable, seems like he kinda half-assed it but I'm not sure. Anyway blinkstalker/Immortal felt good for defense and the WP allowed me to get my 3rd up, then I added templar (no archon), and I feel that storm plus stalker/immortal is just too much for pure roach or even roach ling.
The composition and my tech just feels really flexible, even without the stargate. I felt that I could handle pretty much unit mix (up to a point of course) with this comp.
Thanks a lot man, I've done it all day today and it feels right (never been a fan of colossus). Comment on it would be great!
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I am watching your replays and just have some questions that maybe are coming from my newness overall to this matchup and maybe not as much your style at times but indulge me if you will!
Game 1 (Shattered Temple vs Bobstaman)
You are going for the Council before robo this game, was this because of his aggressive use of lings (and only lings) with speed to try to deny your expansion?
Is your patroling Stalker at ~9:45 because of possible Nydus or is it to block scouting in general? (or both)
You have gone up to 7 gates before adding the Robo. Is this in general how you play vs that kind of ling pressure or is this maybe how you play when going the DT before robo? Talk about this choice and its reasons.
Your push ROLLED him over, I didn't pay attention to his macro at all and I notice he went ling/roach/bling into Spire so maybe you just hit a timing, but it would seem that either the openings either gave you a large advantage or your macro skills were above and beyond his in a way that made an "auto" win. Thoughts?
No warp prism this game, why? I am sure its because of the timing of the robo but I would like you to comment on if there was any reason that leads to this. Just a good discussion point.
Game 2 (Tal'Darim Altar vs Spencer)
Love this style, exactly what I envisioned when I read your guide.
Why no control groups for the warp prisms? I am impressed you do the harass so well without them!
This game is a great overall example of the style I am thinking.
Game 3 (Shattered Temple vs Mike)
Why did you choose to 3 Gate FE instead of 1? I assume it is because of the herp derp close positions on Blizzard Ladder map but just checking.
Forge and +1 before Twilight and Blink. You mention this in your guide but do you have any input on the WHY of this choice?
I did not like this zerg's play but I never like a zerg's play when its close positions so ya.
Game 4 (Shak Plat vs Saga)
Why did you 1 gate FE on Shak plat instead of FFE? I know thats totally not what this guide is about but this surprised me.
Ok that prism died ASAP to muta. This is one of the styles I was thinking would be very good vs your style. Your reaction seems to be double forge on 2 base, continue towards archons, and have your army in two groups to defend each base. You then add archons as you add 3 cannons to your main. This allows you to push with your 2 archon force and have the main sitting with good AA. Your push outright wins very handily. When and how would you take a 3rd base if things had not gone so well? Your build looks a bit more like a timing attack style in this replay.
In your guide you say to go any FE into 3 gates, add a robo, then twilight, then 2 more gates.
Almost every replay showed you going more gates before the twilight and it was usually a total of 6 or 7 around the twilight timing. What are your thoughts on this?
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On October 13 2011 07:06 vaderseven wrote:
In your guide you say to go any FE into 3 gates, add a robo, then twilight, then 2 more gates.
Almost every replay showed you going more gates before the twilight and it was usually a total of 6 or 7 around the twilight timing. What are your thoughts on this?
Do as he says, not as he does !!!
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I am used to do as pro gamer replay from korea does and not as anyone says so bear with me g.
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United States8476 Posts
These are my thoughts. I'm going to nitpick, so don't take any offense to this criticism. I'm going to consider this as 2 guides, one as an opening build, and one as a final unit composition.
First, I'm going to comment on the opening build.
Basically, your opening consists of the following: 1 gate fe into 3 gates into fast robo. I feel as if this build has too many flaws for it to truly be considered a solid build. Its weaknesses include:
- Roach ling allin: You definitely don't have enough units or tech to defend a standard roach ling allin.
- Fast 2 base muta: Your warp prism gets to his base right around when mutas come out and you neither have the tech or pressure required to combat units.
- Extremely greedy play: I've had players go 4 base on pure ling tech. Yes, this dies to gateway pressure and it's extremely rare, but you can't punish it with the robo build that you suggest.
As for the ending unit composition: - It's been said before that archons aren't really that important in your unit composition. Personally, I never attempt to get archons until extremely late game. I feel like the money you spend on dts could be funneled somewhere else.
- I find your claim that "Voidray/HT/Immortal is basically unbeatable!" is very untrue. Correct ratios of Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor/Ground will demolish that."
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General Notes -
1. This opening is basically a way to use warp prism's to pin the enemy back and force units which should allow you to take a safe 3rd base and remain on even econ. You have to view your 3rd base timing as connected to the harass. Taking the base too early will allow him to just kill it because he is not pinned back at all and taking it to late will make you suffer economy wise.
2. I personally feel that if you spot roach hydra with the obs you can very easily go colsi/blink stalker after the warp prism instead of archon/immortal/blink stalker. This needs testing still.
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On October 13 2011 06:27 tehemperorer wrote:I really enjoyed it Cecil, here is a replay of me trying it out in mid masters ladder NA: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/14267I think it was pretty effective, I felt I had control the whole game aside from some minor firefighting efforts. I think his muta switch was questionable, seems like he kinda half-assed it but I'm not sure. Anyway blinkstalker/Immortal felt good for defense and the WP allowed me to get my 3rd up, then I added templar (no archon), and I feel that storm plus stalker/immortal is just too much for pure roach or even roach ling. The composition and my tech just feels really flexible, even without the stargate. I felt that I could handle pretty much unit mix (up to a point of course) with this comp. Thanks a lot man, I've done it all day today and it feels right (never been a fan of colossus). Comment on it would be great!
Seemed okay, you didn't have many units early on, not sure why but it feels like your army was just really small a whole lot of the early/mid game, probably the forge + cannon. You also probably should have gotten two warp prisms for hitting the main/third at the same time. You also shouldn't have bombarded across the map without getting those 2 archons! You lost your immortals to a bunch of lings >.< Still a pretty good try!
On October 13 2011 07:06 vaderseven wrote:
You are going for the Council before robo this game, was this because of his aggressive use of lings (and only lings) with speed to try to deny your expansion?
Is your patroling Stalker at ~9:45 because of possible Nydus or is it to block scouting in general? (or both)
You have gone up to 7 gates before adding the Robo. Is this in general how you play vs that kind of ling pressure or is this maybe how you play when going the DT before robo? Talk about this choice and its reasons.
Well, he was really aggressive with a lot lings and I knew Lair tech was going to be delayed. So the optimal choice I felt was to just go for faster DT (and faster Archon access). I didn't really need the Robo for Immortals until before I was about to push, since I knew offensive Roaches weren't on the way. It was highly situational. The Stalker was just to cover that location for Nydus/Overlord/Overseer/Whatever - it's just not comfortable for me to leave that spot of that map in that situation blind.
On October 13 2011 07:06 vaderseven wrote:
Your push ROLLED him over, I didn't pay attention to his macro at all and I notice he went ling/roach/bling into Spire so maybe you just hit a timing, but it would seem that either the openings either gave you a large advantage or your macro skills were above and beyond his in a way that made an "auto" win. Thoughts?
My composition was much stronger than his, he had no way to deal with Immortal/Archon at that point, because he had no higher tier tech units. I knew I could push him like that due his ling aggression slowing him down, and my DT tech keeping him from mining/macroing for a while.
On October 13 2011 07:06 vaderseven wrote:
No warp prism this game, why? I am sure its because of the timing of the robo but I would like you to comment on if there was any reason that leads to this. Just a good discussion point.
DT first means I can't afford it until later.
On October 13 2011 07:06 vaderseven wrote:
Game 2 (Tal'Darim Altar vs Spencer)
Love this style, exactly what I envisioned when I read your guide.
Why no control groups for the warp prisms? I am impressed you do the harass so well without them!
This game is a great overall example of the style I am thinking.
It would be better to control group them. I just have a lot more room to improve as a player
On October 13 2011 07:06 vaderseven wrote:
Game 3 (Shattered Temple vs Mike)
Why did you choose to 3 Gate FE instead of 1? I assume it is because of the herp derp close positions on Blizzard Ladder map but just checking.
Forge and +1 before Twilight and Blink. You mention this in your guide but do you have any input on the WHY of this choice?
I did not like this zerg's play but I never like a zerg's play when its close positions so ya.
3 Gate because I wasn't sure if he was going to Roach/Ling me or not. +1 first because I placed Forge + Cannons in back to cover my flank (close pos Z players hit there all the time with all sorts of stuff).
On October 13 2011 07:06 vaderseven wrote:Game 4 (Shak Plat vs Saga)
Why did you 1 gate FE on Shak plat instead of FFE? I know thats totally not what this guide is about but this surprised me.
Ok that prism died ASAP to muta. This is one of the styles I was thinking would be very good vs your style. Your reaction seems to be double forge on 2 base, continue towards archons, and have your army in two groups to defend each base. You then add archons as you add 3 cannons to your main. This allows you to push with your 2 archon force and have the main sitting with good AA. Your push outright wins very handily. When and how would you take a 3rd base if things had not gone so well? Your build looks a bit more like a timing attack style in this replay.
In your guide you say to go any FE into 3 gates, add a robo, then twilight, then 2 more gates.
Almost every replay showed you going more gates before the twilight and it was usually a total of 6 or 7 around the twilight timing. What are your thoughts on this?
Well I can't simply follow a rigid build order if my Zerg opponent isn't letting me. Look at the engulfSaga game, I basically played the early game exactly how I wanted. Often times in the other replays I had to deviate slightly. This is perfectly fine, as the build is more a style than a specific build order. Think of the OP as more of build guidelines than a build order.
The double forge was definitely an accident, and I just made the best out of it by getting upgrades. They didn't even finish when I pushed lol. It would have been better to invest that second forge into a 3rd base for sure. And yes this game was more of a timing attack, because I basically 2 base allin'd him once I saw Mutalisks, because I felt that since I had the tech path I had (blink/archon/immortal) I could just simply win the game then and there. Turns out I was correct.
On October 13 2011 07:27 NrGmonk wrote:These are my thoughts. I'm going to nitpick, so don't take any offense to this criticism. I'm going to consider this as 2 guides, one as an opening build, and one as a final unit composition. First, I'm going to comment on the opening build. Basically, your opening consists of the following: 1 gate fe into 3 gates into fast robo. I feel as if this build has too many flaws for it to truly be considered a solid build. Its weaknesses include: - Roach ling allin: You definitely don't have enough units or tech to defend a standard roach ling allin.
- Fast 2 base muta: Your warp prism gets to his base right around when mutas come out and you neither have the tech or pressure required to combat units.
- Extremely greedy play: I've had players go 4 base on pure ling tech. Yes, this dies to gateway pressure and it's extremely rare, but you can't punish it with the robo build that you suggest.
As for the ending unit composition: - It's been said before that archons aren't really that important in your unit composition. Personally, I never attempt to get archons until extremely late game. I feel like the money you spend on dts could be funneled somewhere else.
- I find your claim that "Voidray/HT/Immortal is basically unbeatable!" is very untrue. Correct ratios of Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor/Ground will demolish that."
Well, I might have too few units early on to survive roach/ling allin, but until I die to it I'll just keep playing like I am. Against fast Muta, aren't you in the perfect situation to defend..? Blink Stalkers + Archon tech shortly after?
Against really greedy play, yes you cannot kill them outright, but if you catch wind they're doing this earlier on, then you haven't commit to anything. You can also research Hallu earlier for Phoenix scout, you can use the fast obs I talk about as well. I don't see why this build is any worse than any other, unless you're talking about blind Gateway pressure.
Same thing with late game - I'll keep doing what I'm doing until it doesn't work anymore.
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On October 13 2011 11:12 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 07:27 NrGmonk wrote:These are my thoughts. I'm going to nitpick, so don't take any offense to this criticism. I'm going to consider this as 2 guides, one as an opening build, and one as a final unit composition. First, I'm going to comment on the opening build. Basically, your opening consists of the following: 1 gate fe into 3 gates into fast robo. I feel as if this build has too many flaws for it to truly be considered a solid build. Its weaknesses include: - Roach ling allin: You definitely don't have enough units or tech to defend a standard roach ling allin.
- Fast 2 base muta: Your warp prism gets to his base right around when mutas come out and you neither have the tech or pressure required to combat units.
- Extremely greedy play: I've had players go 4 base on pure ling tech. Yes, this dies to gateway pressure and it's extremely rare, but you can't punish it with the robo build that you suggest.
As for the ending unit composition: - It's been said before that archons aren't really that important in your unit composition. Personally, I never attempt to get archons until extremely late game. I feel like the money you spend on dts could be funneled somewhere else.
- I find your claim that "Voidray/HT/Immortal is basically unbeatable!" is very untrue. Correct ratios of Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor/Ground will demolish that."
Well, I might have too few units early on to survive roach/ling allin, but until I die to it I'll just keep playing like I am. Against fast Muta, aren't you in the perfect situation to defend..? Blink Stalkers + Archon tech shortly after? Against really greedy play, yes you cannot kill them outright, but if you catch wind they're doing this earlier on, then you haven't commit to anything. You can also research Hallu earlier for Phoenix scout, you can use the fast obs I talk about as well. I don't see why this build is any worse than any other, unless you're talking about blind Gateway pressure. Same thing with late game - I'll keep doing what I'm doing until it doesn't work anymore.
One thing I really like about opening with an early robo and twilight is that it's so versatile and reactive and you can easily adapt to what your opponent is doing. Standard roach play? You already have immortal/blink/sentry. Scout mutas? You're already getting blink. Hydras? You can easily add on a robo bay. Infestors? Add on a templar archives. This is in contrast with say opening stargate, where you'll end up with more or less useless voids if your opponent is prepared and did something other than standard macro play... like 2 base hydra, infestor, or muta... and then you have a late robo and twilight for late colossus or HT tech.
Fighting 2 base muta is no problem at all with this build, and I disagree that a greedy low-tech 4 base ling only build cannot be punished with robo - stalker/sentry/immortal is a mid game composition that is ridiculously cost effective against non-lair tech zerg. You don't need some kind of early warpgate push to punish that, just take your time and don't fret, get a nice sentry count, and once you have infinity force fields you can literally beat 200 supply roach/ling armies.
As far as late game goes, no protoss army is really unbeatable, but I feel like part of this style of play is constant aggression, via threatening with your stalker/sentry/immortal ball, and the warp prism harass. The zerg really should never get to hive tech unless you mess up and have to play defensively.
Although I didn't follow this build exactly, I started playing around with earlier warp prism harass (usually I don't get WP until later, and then it's only to simultaneously warp zealots into an expo or main while I a-move with a deathball), as well as getting blink earlier if I open robo. And I had a lot of success :p After watching your tal darim game I really like the stalker in WP harass, it's essentially like a void ray harass that's much stronger... and faster. You can go around sniping overlords, taking watch towers, harassing drones, even killing queens if the zerg isn't careful. One advantage people always say opening stargate has and why opening robo sucks is the lack of scouting/harassment - well the stalker in WP play pretty much completely negates that argument.
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On October 11 2011 21:12 blacktar wrote:
this is a really awesome guide, I am struggling in PvZ horribly right now (high plat dying to be diamond) and I am going to make this my go to build I think.
I like how it has a high skill cap (warp prisms) hopefully this will help me to improve my multi tasking and my win / loss vs zerg. I really like how this build appears to be safe in the early game and surprises your enemy with a strong attack that leaves you free to expand behind it. The warp prism is so much more versatile than I realized. I never thought to use it to save units taking fire and let them regen some shields, the health buff makes that possible now.
Question :: in game one had you taken more damage in the first or second zergling attack and he was able to get the mutas out, do you feel that you would be vulnerable to them? I didn't see any mention of mutas at all in the guide, and it appears this timing comes a few min after they would be able to be harassing your base with them. How does this factor into shutting down your warp prism play, would you just go with more blink stalkers + archons and get storm quicker, or colo?
Awesome guide!
edit :: (Take a look at game 2 and how many drones that guy has at his main / natural, wow!)
He did mention Mutas, that's what the Archons and blink stalkers are for. Obviously if Mutas come out before you have enough of these units then your going to have to give up alot of map control until you get enough to take it back.
This is a really interesting play style as with only minor changes you can effectivly counter most Zerg armies. I don't play alot of P, only the occational team game, but I main as Z and the only way i can think of to stop this is Hyrda, as talked about in the OP. However as you also mentioned you can easily tech to storm or collosus and be in a commanding possition once again.
My only concern is the amount of gas that you would need to support this army. In the early game if you try to play it safe and go for a couple of sentries then your seriously delaying your various tech paths, however i think that once you get your 3rd up and running you'll be almost unstoppable
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United States8476 Posts
On October 13 2011 18:53 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 11:12 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 13 2011 07:27 NrGmonk wrote:These are my thoughts. I'm going to nitpick, so don't take any offense to this criticism. I'm going to consider this as 2 guides, one as an opening build, and one as a final unit composition. First, I'm going to comment on the opening build. Basically, your opening consists of the following: 1 gate fe into 3 gates into fast robo. I feel as if this build has too many flaws for it to truly be considered a solid build. Its weaknesses include: - Roach ling allin: You definitely don't have enough units or tech to defend a standard roach ling allin.
- Fast 2 base muta: Your warp prism gets to his base right around when mutas come out and you neither have the tech or pressure required to combat units.
- Extremely greedy play: I've had players go 4 base on pure ling tech. Yes, this dies to gateway pressure and it's extremely rare, but you can't punish it with the robo build that you suggest.
As for the ending unit composition: - It's been said before that archons aren't really that important in your unit composition. Personally, I never attempt to get archons until extremely late game. I feel like the money you spend on dts could be funneled somewhere else.
- I find your claim that "Voidray/HT/Immortal is basically unbeatable!" is very untrue. Correct ratios of Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor/Ground will demolish that."
Well, I might have too few units early on to survive roach/ling allin, but until I die to it I'll just keep playing like I am. Against fast Muta, aren't you in the perfect situation to defend..? Blink Stalkers + Archon tech shortly after? Against really greedy play, yes you cannot kill them outright, but if you catch wind they're doing this earlier on, then you haven't commit to anything. You can also research Hallu earlier for Phoenix scout, you can use the fast obs I talk about as well. I don't see why this build is any worse than any other, unless you're talking about blind Gateway pressure. Same thing with late game - I'll keep doing what I'm doing until it doesn't work anymore. One thing I really like about opening with an early robo and twilight is that it's so versatile and reactive and you can easily adapt to what your opponent is doing. Standard roach play? You already have immortal/blink/sentry. Scout mutas? You're already getting blink. Hydras? You can easily add on a robo bay. Infestors? Add on a templar archives. This is in contrast with say opening stargate, where you'll end up with more or less useless voids if your opponent is prepared and did something other than standard macro play... like 2 base hydra, infestor, or muta... and then you have a late robo and twilight for late colossus or HT tech. Fighting 2 base muta is no problem at all with this build, and I disagree that a greedy low-tech 4 base ling only build cannot be punished with robo - stalker/sentry/immortal is a mid game composition that is ridiculously cost effective against non-lair tech zerg. You don't need some kind of early warpgate push to punish that, just take your time and don't fret, get a nice sentry count, and once you have infinity force fields you can literally beat 200 supply roach/ling armies. As far as late game goes, no protoss army is really unbeatable, but I feel like part of this style of play is constant aggression, via threatening with your stalker/sentry/immortal ball, and the warp prism harass. The zerg really should never get to hive tech unless you mess up and have to play defensively. Although I didn't follow this build exactly, I started playing around with earlier warp prism harass (usually I don't get WP until later, and then it's only to simultaneously warp zealots into an expo or main while I a-move with a deathball), as well as getting blink earlier if I open robo. And I had a lot of success :p After watching your tal darim game I really like the stalker in WP harass, it's essentially like a void ray harass that's much stronger... and faster. You can go around sniping overlords, taking watch towers, harassing drones, even killing queens if the zerg isn't careful. One advantage people always say opening stargate has and why opening robo sucks is the lack of scouting/harassment - well the stalker in WP play pretty much completely negates that argument.
I watched the game on shakruas and I see that his twilight was very early and thus on time vs mutas. I had only seen the previous 3 replays where he got pressured and thus all his buildings were late. Thus, I no longer think the build is terrible versus mutas.
However, I still maintain that his particular build is the worst possible thing you can do versus greedy zerg play, ie. 3 base into muta. I feel versus this type of zerg, you only have a 1-2 minute window to punish and if you don't, then afterwards you are way behind. In fact, I dare someone to find a worse build versus this greedy play.
Again, I'm not saying this build isn't viable. I'm just trying to nitpick at its weaknesses.
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You know it's a quality thread when there're 5 blue members talking hahaha, great guide Cecil Thanks :D
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On October 13 2011 18:53 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 11:12 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 13 2011 07:27 NrGmonk wrote:These are my thoughts. I'm going to nitpick, so don't take any offense to this criticism. I'm going to consider this as 2 guides, one as an opening build, and one as a final unit composition. First, I'm going to comment on the opening build. Basically, your opening consists of the following: 1 gate fe into 3 gates into fast robo. I feel as if this build has too many flaws for it to truly be considered a solid build. Its weaknesses include: - Roach ling allin: You definitely don't have enough units or tech to defend a standard roach ling allin.
- Fast 2 base muta: Your warp prism gets to his base right around when mutas come out and you neither have the tech or pressure required to combat units.
- Extremely greedy play: I've had players go 4 base on pure ling tech. Yes, this dies to gateway pressure and it's extremely rare, but you can't punish it with the robo build that you suggest.
As for the ending unit composition: - It's been said before that archons aren't really that important in your unit composition. Personally, I never attempt to get archons until extremely late game. I feel like the money you spend on dts could be funneled somewhere else.
- I find your claim that "Voidray/HT/Immortal is basically unbeatable!" is very untrue. Correct ratios of Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor/Ground will demolish that."
Well, I might have too few units early on to survive roach/ling allin, but until I die to it I'll just keep playing like I am. Against fast Muta, aren't you in the perfect situation to defend..? Blink Stalkers + Archon tech shortly after? Against really greedy play, yes you cannot kill them outright, but if you catch wind they're doing this earlier on, then you haven't commit to anything. You can also research Hallu earlier for Phoenix scout, you can use the fast obs I talk about as well. I don't see why this build is any worse than any other, unless you're talking about blind Gateway pressure. Same thing with late game - I'll keep doing what I'm doing until it doesn't work anymore. One thing I really like about opening with an early robo and twilight is that it's so versatile and reactive and you can easily adapt to what your opponent is doing. Standard roach play? You already have immortal/blink/sentry. Scout mutas? You're already getting blink. Hydras? You can easily add on a robo bay. Infestors? Add on a templar archives. This is in contrast with say opening stargate, where you'll end up with more or less useless voids if your opponent is prepared and did something other than standard macro play... like 2 base hydra, infestor, or muta... and then you have a late robo and twilight for late colossus or HT tech. Fighting 2 base muta is no problem at all with this build, and I disagree that a greedy low-tech 4 base ling only build cannot be punished with robo - stalker/sentry/immortal is a mid game composition that is ridiculously cost effective against non-lair tech zerg. You don't need some kind of early warpgate push to punish that, just take your time and don't fret, get a nice sentry count, and once you have infinity force fields you can literally beat 200 supply roach/ling armies. As far as late game goes, no protoss army is really unbeatable, but I feel like part of this style of play is constant aggression, via threatening with your stalker/sentry/immortal ball, and the warp prism harass. The zerg really should never get to hive tech unless you mess up and have to play defensively. Although I didn't follow this build exactly, I started playing around with earlier warp prism harass (usually I don't get WP until later, and then it's only to simultaneously warp zealots into an expo or main while I a-move with a deathball), as well as getting blink earlier if I open robo. And I had a lot of success :p After watching your tal darim game I really like the stalker in WP harass, it's essentially like a void ray harass that's much stronger... and faster. You can go around sniping overlords, taking watch towers, harassing drones, even killing queens if the zerg isn't careful. One advantage people always say opening stargate has and why opening robo sucks is the lack of scouting/harassment - well the stalker in WP play pretty much completely negates that argument.
Lets see some replays
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On October 13 2011 18:53 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 11:12 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 13 2011 07:27 NrGmonk wrote:These are my thoughts. I'm going to nitpick, so don't take any offense to this criticism. I'm going to consider this as 2 guides, one as an opening build, and one as a final unit composition. First, I'm going to comment on the opening build. Basically, your opening consists of the following: 1 gate fe into 3 gates into fast robo. I feel as if this build has too many flaws for it to truly be considered a solid build. Its weaknesses include: - Roach ling allin: You definitely don't have enough units or tech to defend a standard roach ling allin.
- Fast 2 base muta: Your warp prism gets to his base right around when mutas come out and you neither have the tech or pressure required to combat units.
- Extremely greedy play: I've had players go 4 base on pure ling tech. Yes, this dies to gateway pressure and it's extremely rare, but you can't punish it with the robo build that you suggest.
As for the ending unit composition: - It's been said before that archons aren't really that important in your unit composition. Personally, I never attempt to get archons until extremely late game. I feel like the money you spend on dts could be funneled somewhere else.
- I find your claim that "Voidray/HT/Immortal is basically unbeatable!" is very untrue. Correct ratios of Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor/Ground will demolish that."
Well, I might have too few units early on to survive roach/ling allin, but until I die to it I'll just keep playing like I am. Against fast Muta, aren't you in the perfect situation to defend..? Blink Stalkers + Archon tech shortly after? Against really greedy play, yes you cannot kill them outright, but if you catch wind they're doing this earlier on, then you haven't commit to anything. You can also research Hallu earlier for Phoenix scout, you can use the fast obs I talk about as well. I don't see why this build is any worse than any other, unless you're talking about blind Gateway pressure. Same thing with late game - I'll keep doing what I'm doing until it doesn't work anymore. One thing I really like about opening with an early robo and twilight is that it's so versatile and reactive and you can easily adapt to what your opponent is doing. Standard roach play? You already have immortal/blink/sentry. Scout mutas? You're already getting blink. Hydras? You can easily add on a robo bay. Infestors? Add on a templar archives. This is in contrast with say opening stargate, where you'll end up with more or less useless voids if your opponent is prepared and did something other than standard macro play... like 2 base hydra, infestor, or muta... and then you have a late robo and twilight for late colossus or HT tech. Fighting 2 base muta is no problem at all with this build, and I disagree that a greedy low-tech 4 base ling only build cannot be punished with robo - stalker/sentry/immortal is a mid game composition that is ridiculously cost effective against non-lair tech zerg. You don't need some kind of early warpgate push to punish that, just take your time and don't fret, get a nice sentry count, and once you have infinity force fields you can literally beat 200 supply roach/ling armies. As far as late game goes, no protoss army is really unbeatable, but I feel like part of this style of play is constant aggression, via threatening with your stalker/sentry/immortal ball, and the warp prism harass. The zerg really should never get to hive tech unless you mess up and have to play defensively. Although I didn't follow this build exactly, I started playing around with earlier warp prism harass (usually I don't get WP until later, and then it's only to simultaneously warp zealots into an expo or main while I a-move with a deathball), as well as getting blink earlier if I open robo. And I had a lot of success :p After watching your tal darim game I really like the stalker in WP harass, it's essentially like a void ray harass that's much stronger... and faster. You can go around sniping overlords, taking watch towers, harassing drones, even killing queens if the zerg isn't careful. One advantage people always say opening stargate has and why opening robo sucks is the lack of scouting/harassment - well the stalker in WP play pretty much completely negates that argument.
I also have been utilizing robo twilight in PvZ a lot and I agree on your points. In particular though I like going twilight -> robo. I feel it is more versatile and if you're like me and prefer getting early upgrades it allows for a faster +2 weapons. Opening robo blindly has weaknesses that can be exploited such as spire play.
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On October 14 2011 01:34 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 18:53 Anihc wrote:On October 13 2011 11:12 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 13 2011 07:27 NrGmonk wrote:These are my thoughts. I'm going to nitpick, so don't take any offense to this criticism. I'm going to consider this as 2 guides, one as an opening build, and one as a final unit composition. First, I'm going to comment on the opening build. Basically, your opening consists of the following: 1 gate fe into 3 gates into fast robo. I feel as if this build has too many flaws for it to truly be considered a solid build. Its weaknesses include: - Roach ling allin: You definitely don't have enough units or tech to defend a standard roach ling allin.
- Fast 2 base muta: Your warp prism gets to his base right around when mutas come out and you neither have the tech or pressure required to combat units.
- Extremely greedy play: I've had players go 4 base on pure ling tech. Yes, this dies to gateway pressure and it's extremely rare, but you can't punish it with the robo build that you suggest.
As for the ending unit composition: - It's been said before that archons aren't really that important in your unit composition. Personally, I never attempt to get archons until extremely late game. I feel like the money you spend on dts could be funneled somewhere else.
- I find your claim that "Voidray/HT/Immortal is basically unbeatable!" is very untrue. Correct ratios of Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor/Ground will demolish that."
Well, I might have too few units early on to survive roach/ling allin, but until I die to it I'll just keep playing like I am. Against fast Muta, aren't you in the perfect situation to defend..? Blink Stalkers + Archon tech shortly after? Against really greedy play, yes you cannot kill them outright, but if you catch wind they're doing this earlier on, then you haven't commit to anything. You can also research Hallu earlier for Phoenix scout, you can use the fast obs I talk about as well. I don't see why this build is any worse than any other, unless you're talking about blind Gateway pressure. Same thing with late game - I'll keep doing what I'm doing until it doesn't work anymore. One thing I really like about opening with an early robo and twilight is that it's so versatile and reactive and you can easily adapt to what your opponent is doing. Standard roach play? You already have immortal/blink/sentry. Scout mutas? You're already getting blink. Hydras? You can easily add on a robo bay. Infestors? Add on a templar archives. This is in contrast with say opening stargate, where you'll end up with more or less useless voids if your opponent is prepared and did something other than standard macro play... like 2 base hydra, infestor, or muta... and then you have a late robo and twilight for late colossus or HT tech. Fighting 2 base muta is no problem at all with this build, and I disagree that a greedy low-tech 4 base ling only build cannot be punished with robo - stalker/sentry/immortal is a mid game composition that is ridiculously cost effective against non-lair tech zerg. You don't need some kind of early warpgate push to punish that, just take your time and don't fret, get a nice sentry count, and once you have infinity force fields you can literally beat 200 supply roach/ling armies. As far as late game goes, no protoss army is really unbeatable, but I feel like part of this style of play is constant aggression, via threatening with your stalker/sentry/immortal ball, and the warp prism harass. The zerg really should never get to hive tech unless you mess up and have to play defensively. Although I didn't follow this build exactly, I started playing around with earlier warp prism harass (usually I don't get WP until later, and then it's only to simultaneously warp zealots into an expo or main while I a-move with a deathball), as well as getting blink earlier if I open robo. And I had a lot of success :p After watching your tal darim game I really like the stalker in WP harass, it's essentially like a void ray harass that's much stronger... and faster. You can go around sniping overlords, taking watch towers, harassing drones, even killing queens if the zerg isn't careful. One advantage people always say opening stargate has and why opening robo sucks is the lack of scouting/harassment - well the stalker in WP play pretty much completely negates that argument. I also have been utilizing robo twilight in PvZ a lot and I agree on your points. In particular though I like going twilight -> robo. I feel it is more versatile and if you're like me and prefer getting early upgrades it allows for a faster +2 weapons. Opening robo blindly has weaknesses that can be exploited such as spire play.
You should watch the Shakuras replay, in regards to your spire point.
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This ought to be linked to in the posting guidelines as an example of what guides should look like. A+
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It is essential to show at least one Warp Prism in order for you to not fall behind economically. Otherwise you won't have a fighting force with your two Archons until about 12 minutes into the game, which is much much too late.
Why do you mean by this Cecil? Does this mean that if the zerg ignores your prisms and go all-in you, you won't have a fighting force to resist?
The way you phrase it make it seem like, in order for the build to be successful, the zerg must feel threatened by the prism and overmake defense? It sounds like the same philosophy of 1 gate Stargate into VR pressuring zerg's 3rd base, which no longer works since zerg knows how to not panic.
Do you think this build is solid in the sense that it does not rely on zerg panicking?
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This is not new, IST (Immortal Stalker Templar) has been a viable alternate to SSC(stalker sentry colossus) since the days of late beta/early release. This build has probably received numerous buffs due to the recent Immortal/Archon buff, but the composition has been known for some time now. Is it just me or is all PvX strategies on this forum made by CecilSunkure or Hister just stealing/emulating other builds and passing them off as their own? This akin to the 3 rax being dormant in TvP for some time now, but if stim gets a build time buff, then someone posts a guide on how to 3 rax stim again and passing it off as their own.
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I think someone from SOTG was talking about this revolution in Protoss unit composition. Going to try it out on the weekend and post my experience with it.
P.S Hate ffe so thats what i need
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On October 14 2011 00:43 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 18:53 Anihc wrote:On October 13 2011 11:12 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 13 2011 07:27 NrGmonk wrote:These are my thoughts. I'm going to nitpick, so don't take any offense to this criticism. I'm going to consider this as 2 guides, one as an opening build, and one as a final unit composition. First, I'm going to comment on the opening build. Basically, your opening consists of the following: 1 gate fe into 3 gates into fast robo. I feel as if this build has too many flaws for it to truly be considered a solid build. Its weaknesses include: - Roach ling allin: You definitely don't have enough units or tech to defend a standard roach ling allin.
- Fast 2 base muta: Your warp prism gets to his base right around when mutas come out and you neither have the tech or pressure required to combat units.
- Extremely greedy play: I've had players go 4 base on pure ling tech. Yes, this dies to gateway pressure and it's extremely rare, but you can't punish it with the robo build that you suggest.
As for the ending unit composition: - It's been said before that archons aren't really that important in your unit composition. Personally, I never attempt to get archons until extremely late game. I feel like the money you spend on dts could be funneled somewhere else.
- I find your claim that "Voidray/HT/Immortal is basically unbeatable!" is very untrue. Correct ratios of Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor/Ground will demolish that."
Well, I might have too few units early on to survive roach/ling allin, but until I die to it I'll just keep playing like I am. Against fast Muta, aren't you in the perfect situation to defend..? Blink Stalkers + Archon tech shortly after? Against really greedy play, yes you cannot kill them outright, but if you catch wind they're doing this earlier on, then you haven't commit to anything. You can also research Hallu earlier for Phoenix scout, you can use the fast obs I talk about as well. I don't see why this build is any worse than any other, unless you're talking about blind Gateway pressure. Same thing with late game - I'll keep doing what I'm doing until it doesn't work anymore. One thing I really like about opening with an early robo and twilight is that it's so versatile and reactive and you can easily adapt to what your opponent is doing. Standard roach play? You already have immortal/blink/sentry. Scout mutas? You're already getting blink. Hydras? You can easily add on a robo bay. Infestors? Add on a templar archives. This is in contrast with say opening stargate, where you'll end up with more or less useless voids if your opponent is prepared and did something other than standard macro play... like 2 base hydra, infestor, or muta... and then you have a late robo and twilight for late colossus or HT tech. Fighting 2 base muta is no problem at all with this build, and I disagree that a greedy low-tech 4 base ling only build cannot be punished with robo - stalker/sentry/immortal is a mid game composition that is ridiculously cost effective against non-lair tech zerg. You don't need some kind of early warpgate push to punish that, just take your time and don't fret, get a nice sentry count, and once you have infinity force fields you can literally beat 200 supply roach/ling armies. As far as late game goes, no protoss army is really unbeatable, but I feel like part of this style of play is constant aggression, via threatening with your stalker/sentry/immortal ball, and the warp prism harass. The zerg really should never get to hive tech unless you mess up and have to play defensively. Although I didn't follow this build exactly, I started playing around with earlier warp prism harass (usually I don't get WP until later, and then it's only to simultaneously warp zealots into an expo or main while I a-move with a deathball), as well as getting blink earlier if I open robo. And I had a lot of success :p After watching your tal darim game I really like the stalker in WP harass, it's essentially like a void ray harass that's much stronger... and faster. You can go around sniping overlords, taking watch towers, harassing drones, even killing queens if the zerg isn't careful. One advantage people always say opening stargate has and why opening robo sucks is the lack of scouting/harassment - well the stalker in WP play pretty much completely negates that argument. Lets see some replays
Not the best play from either side, but this is my first time trying out the fast WP harass and faster blink (than I normally do, still probably a bit later than you would though). WP didn't really do that much, but I think you can easily see its potential. I also didn't really use blink (forgot I had it :D), but didn't really matter. Also I went FFE instead of gate expand, and I went for HT instead of DT (game was over by then though).
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-236709.jpg)
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On October 14 2011 04:07 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
This is not new, IST (Immortal Stalker Templar) has been a viable alternate to SSC(stalker sentry colossus) since the days of late beta/early release. This build has probably received numerous buffs due to the recent Immortal/Archon buff, but the composition has been known for some time now. Is it just me or is all PvX strategies on this forum made by CecilSunkure or Hister just stealing/emulating other builds and passing them off as their own?
Is it just me or are all the GTL posts troll posts? I didn't say it was new, and I didn't name it after myself??? I said it was modern, and that a fan of mine dubbed it CvZ [humorously]
On October 14 2011 04:06 Quochobao wrote:Show nested quote +It is essential to show at least one Warp Prism in order for you to not fall behind economically. Otherwise you won't have a fighting force with your two Archons until about 12 minutes into the game, which is much much too late. Why do you mean by this Cecil? Does this mean that if the zerg ignores your prisms and go all-in you, you won't have a fighting force to resist? The way you phrase it make it seem like, in order for the build to be successful, the zerg must feel threatened by the prism and overmake defense? It sounds like the same philosophy of 1 gate Stargate into VR pressuring zerg's 3rd base, which no longer works since zerg knows how to not panic. Do you think this build is solid in the sense that it does not rely on zerg panicking?
No, that means if you don't show any map presence until 12 minutes, you'll fall behind to 80 Drones mining on 4 base, with an extremely comfortable Zerg player. You have to threaten with the Warp Prism, you have to regardless of whether or not you actually land a single unit. You don't rely on the Zerg overreacting - you simply force down the minimal reaction so you don't fall behind. However most every player is either going to under-react and take a lot of damage, or over-react and fall behind.
It however is a completely different Philosophy compared to Stargate openings. With a Stargate opening you invest heavily into a Stargate and air units. In PvZ you basically need a Robo every game, so the only cost is 200 minerals. Also, the threat of a Warp Prism (or multiple ones) is one that is extremely versatile; you can get 20 units out of a Warp Prism, but you can't do anything more than get a single unit out of each Stargate unit you have.
Edit: Thanks for rep rsvp, will watch later once I get home ^^
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 14 2011 04:07 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
This is not new, IST (Immortal Stalker Templar) has been a viable alternate to SSC(stalker sentry colossus) since the days of late beta/early release. This build has probably received numerous buffs due to the recent Immortal/Archon buff, but the composition has been known for some time now. Is it just me or is all PvX strategies on this forum made by CecilSunkure or Hister just stealing/emulating other builds and passing them off as their own? This akin to the 3 rax being dormant in TvP for some time now, but if stim gets a build time buff, then someone posts a guide on how to 3 rax stim again and passing it off as their own.
This build is different from standard IST where you would just build a different kind of deathball though; it's really focused on harassing heavily with warp prisms and dark templar, which is somewhat new.
Anyway, Cruncher just play an extremely similar build in NASL in game two vs Lowely; he just roflstomped lowely's build (it was pretty wierd but still).
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On October 13 2011 23:28 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 18:53 Anihc wrote:On October 13 2011 11:12 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 13 2011 07:27 NrGmonk wrote:These are my thoughts. I'm going to nitpick, so don't take any offense to this criticism. I'm going to consider this as 2 guides, one as an opening build, and one as a final unit composition. First, I'm going to comment on the opening build. Basically, your opening consists of the following: 1 gate fe into 3 gates into fast robo. I feel as if this build has too many flaws for it to truly be considered a solid build. Its weaknesses include: - Roach ling allin: You definitely don't have enough units or tech to defend a standard roach ling allin.
- Fast 2 base muta: Your warp prism gets to his base right around when mutas come out and you neither have the tech or pressure required to combat units.
- Extremely greedy play: I've had players go 4 base on pure ling tech. Yes, this dies to gateway pressure and it's extremely rare, but you can't punish it with the robo build that you suggest.
As for the ending unit composition: - It's been said before that archons aren't really that important in your unit composition. Personally, I never attempt to get archons until extremely late game. I feel like the money you spend on dts could be funneled somewhere else.
- I find your claim that "Voidray/HT/Immortal is basically unbeatable!" is very untrue. Correct ratios of Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor/Ground will demolish that."
Well, I might have too few units early on to survive roach/ling allin, but until I die to it I'll just keep playing like I am. Against fast Muta, aren't you in the perfect situation to defend..? Blink Stalkers + Archon tech shortly after? Against really greedy play, yes you cannot kill them outright, but if you catch wind they're doing this earlier on, then you haven't commit to anything. You can also research Hallu earlier for Phoenix scout, you can use the fast obs I talk about as well. I don't see why this build is any worse than any other, unless you're talking about blind Gateway pressure. Same thing with late game - I'll keep doing what I'm doing until it doesn't work anymore. One thing I really like about opening with an early robo and twilight is that it's so versatile and reactive and you can easily adapt to what your opponent is doing. Standard roach play? You already have immortal/blink/sentry. Scout mutas? You're already getting blink. Hydras? You can easily add on a robo bay. Infestors? Add on a templar archives. This is in contrast with say opening stargate, where you'll end up with more or less useless voids if your opponent is prepared and did something other than standard macro play... like 2 base hydra, infestor, or muta... and then you have a late robo and twilight for late colossus or HT tech. Fighting 2 base muta is no problem at all with this build, and I disagree that a greedy low-tech 4 base ling only build cannot be punished with robo - stalker/sentry/immortal is a mid game composition that is ridiculously cost effective against non-lair tech zerg. You don't need some kind of early warpgate push to punish that, just take your time and don't fret, get a nice sentry count, and once you have infinity force fields you can literally beat 200 supply roach/ling armies. As far as late game goes, no protoss army is really unbeatable, but I feel like part of this style of play is constant aggression, via threatening with your stalker/sentry/immortal ball, and the warp prism harass. The zerg really should never get to hive tech unless you mess up and have to play defensively. Although I didn't follow this build exactly, I started playing around with earlier warp prism harass (usually I don't get WP until later, and then it's only to simultaneously warp zealots into an expo or main while I a-move with a deathball), as well as getting blink earlier if I open robo. And I had a lot of success :p After watching your tal darim game I really like the stalker in WP harass, it's essentially like a void ray harass that's much stronger... and faster. You can go around sniping overlords, taking watch towers, harassing drones, even killing queens if the zerg isn't careful. One advantage people always say opening stargate has and why opening robo sucks is the lack of scouting/harassment - well the stalker in WP play pretty much completely negates that argument. I watched the game on shakruas and I see that his twilight was very early and thus on time vs mutas. I had only seen the previous 3 replays where he got pressured and thus all his buildings were late. Thus, I no longer think the build is terrible versus mutas. However, I still maintain that his particular build is the worst possible thing you can do versus greedy zerg play, ie. 3 base into muta. I feel versus this type of zerg, you only have a 1-2 minute window to punish and if you don't, then afterwards you are way behind. In fact, I dare someone to find a worse build versus this greedy play. Again, I'm not saying this build isn't viable. I'm just trying to nitpick at its weaknesses.
Don't worry, I know exactly what you mean by "I like the build but I'm nitpicking at its weaknesses," I do it all the time :p
While I agree that 3 base into muta would be a good soft counter to this build, I almost never see 3 base into muta... although I do see 3 base into standard roach/ling into tech switch to muta (damn slush and ostojiy) if that's what you mean. If you go straight into muta without roaches you have that 1-2 minute window to punish it like you said, and that's actually a huge window. If you go standard 3 base play (roach) you have much less time than that to punish it, if any at all.
Regardless, I feel perfectly fine with opening robo and battling greedy play. If your opponent is being super greedy with drones, you can punish it with just a straight up attack. If he's being overly cautious and making a ton of units, just harass and take your own 3rd a bit earlier yourself. With this build, I guess it all comes down to how good you are with the WP harass.
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I'm sorry if you think my posts are troll, but I don't like the circle jerk that's involved in "new revolutionary" strategies that are neither new nor revolutionary. If I resurrect Antimage's PvZ (1 gate stargate expand with voidray into early colossus) and then make a guide on it but suggest getting a warp prism from your robo facility as oppose to an early obs, doesn't make it new or mine. It doesn't make it GTL vs Z, it simply makes it a slight variation with the same overarching principle (denying 3rd, forcing queens, forcing spores, stop a zerg from droning). This forum is flooded with builds that bare striking resemblances to other builds and differ in one minor expect that is usually associated with execution -- in that case it's not a build anymore, it's just how you prefer to execute. If Me and MC both 6 gate a terran, he might use FFs to block off the ramp and separate pockets of units, whereas I might use it to stop mass repair on bunkers. Doesn't make the builds different - it's a stylistic choice that is more in the realm of execution. You made a post on how YOU use the IST composition. If i copy the same build order you outline but I suggest an endgame of mothership carrier archon, does it make it mine? does it warrant an elaborate guide? no. Are you pioneering a build order or a style? Because in either case, the build order has been known for a while, and the style has been explored. Minor deviations in how you choose to execute it doesn't make it your own unless your exploiting very subtle timings that only your build has the ability to do .
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Robo+twilight have crossed my mind but i have never tried it. Now when you have given me a greate guide i don't need to figure everything out myself. It is great because when you scout with the observer you can react in 1000 different directions. Say he defends a muta build with 10 spines, then you can mass up stalkers and use observers to blink into his base. Or just go with the timing you described.
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 14 2011 04:30 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I'm sorry if you think my posts are troll, but I don't like the circle jerk that's involved in "new revolutionary" strategies that are neither new nor revolutionary. If I resurrect Antimage's PvZ (1 gate stargate expand with voidray into early colossus) and then make a guide on it but suggest getting a warp prism from your robo facility as oppose to an early obs, doesn't make it new or mine. It doesn't make it GTL vs Z, it simply makes it a slight variation with the same overarching principle (denying 3rd, forcing queens, forcing spores, stop a zerg from droning). This forum is flooded with builds that bare striking resemblances to other builds and differ in one minor expect that is usually associated with execution -- in that case it's not a build anymore, it's just how you prefer to execute. If Me and MC both 6 gate a terran, he might use FFs to block off the ramp and separate pockets of units, whereas I might use it to stop mass repair on bunkers. Doesn't make the builds different - it's a stylistic choice that is more in the realm of execution.
But it IS different. With that particular stargate expand you would get no sentries (which today is absolutely insane), and you would use the void rays to do a LOT more damage than you can accomplish today; now the void ray/phoenixes just serve to be safe vs roach/ling, kill a couple ovies and scout.
At the same time, oldschool ist meant you would just sit on your ass until you had your deathball; different units from ssc but the idea was the same: eventually ist beats roach/hydra, so i'll just wait until my army is stronger and kill him.
The way you execute this build is completely different: use harass to secure a third, and then consistently play aggressively to prevent him from reaching hive tech, which is where a zerg is really scary. So while the units made might be the same from old ist builds, the strategy itself is actually different.
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...this is your build? All I see is the standard macro orientated pvz build that all the koreans have been doing for weeks. Why is it called CvZ?
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On October 14 2011 04:30 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I'm sorry if you think my posts are troll, but I don't like the circle jerk that's involved in "new revolutionary" strategies that are neither new nor revolutionary. If I resurrect Antimage's PvZ (1 gate stargate expand with voidray into early colossus) and then make a guide on it but suggest getting a warp prism from your robo facility as oppose to an early obs, doesn't make it new or mine. It doesn't make it GTL vs Z, it simply makes it a slight variation with the same overarching principle (denying 3rd, forcing queens, forcing spores, stop a zerg from droning). This forum is flooded with builds that bare striking resemblances to other builds and differ in one minor expect that is usually associated with execution -- in that case it's not a build anymore, it's just how you prefer to execute. If Me and MC both 6 gate a terran, he might use FFs to block off the ramp and separate pockets of units, whereas I might use it to stop mass repair on bunkers. Doesn't make the builds different - it's a stylistic choice that is more in the realm of execution. You made a post on how YOU use the IST composition. If i copy the same build order you outline but I suggest an endgame of mothership carrier archon, does it make it mine? does it warrant an elaborate guide? no. Are you pioneering a build order or a style? Because in either case, the build order has been known for a while, and the style has been explored. Minor deviations in how you choose to execute it doesn't make it your own unless your exploiting very subtle timings that only your build has the ability to do .
If there already is a better guide on ist then feel free to link it, if not what's the problem with him writing a guide about it. I've never seen anyone do the build like he does it (the new things aren't unimportant at all btw), and he isn't crying for attention like most guides do.
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On October 14 2011 04:43 name_lock wrote:
...this is your build? All I see is the standard macro orientated pvz build that all the koreans have been doing for weeks. Why is it called CvZ?
Feel free to post replay links, until then i think it's bs.
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I hope this build becomes the new metagame since I've found Colossi to be too boring in recent games.
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While I agree that 3 base into muta would be a good soft counter to this build, I almost never see 3 base into muta... although I do see 3 base into standard roach/ling into tech switch to muta (damn slush and ostojiy) if that's what you mean. If you go straight into muta without roaches you have that 1-2 minute window to punish it like you said, and that's actually a huge window. If you go standard 3 base play (roach) you have much less time than that to punish it, if any at all.
Regardless, I feel perfectly fine with opening robo and battling greedy play. If your opponent is being super greedy with drones, you can punish it with just a straight up attack. If he's being overly cautious and making a ton of units, just harass and take your own 3rd a bit earlier yourself. With this build, I guess it all comes down to how good you are with the WP harass.
What would you guys suggest as an appropriate zerg response to this build/opening/whatever? Is 3base with roach/ling into muta the best option in your opinion?
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On October 14 2011 05:34 DarkOmen wrote:Show nested quote +
While I agree that 3 base into muta would be a good soft counter to this build, I almost never see 3 base into muta... although I do see 3 base into standard roach/ling into tech switch to muta (damn slush and ostojiy) if that's what you mean. If you go straight into muta without roaches you have that 1-2 minute window to punish it like you said, and that's actually a huge window. If you go standard 3 base play (roach) you have much less time than that to punish it, if any at all.
Regardless, I feel perfectly fine with opening robo and battling greedy play. If your opponent is being super greedy with drones, you can punish it with just a straight up attack. If he's being overly cautious and making a ton of units, just harass and take your own 3rd a bit earlier yourself. With this build, I guess it all comes down to how good you are with the WP harass.
What would you guys suggest as an appropriate zerg response to this build/opening/whatever? Is 3base with roach/ling into muta the best option in your opinion?
I just think 3 base roach into muta is good period. I always have trouble against it no matter what build I do. Mutas are just awesome in ZvP - it's just that if you rush straight for them you're either doing 2 base (low eco) or 3 base (huge timing window where I can just go and kill you). So 3 base roach to minimize that window, and then safely get mutas is tough to beat.
As far as this build, in the specific variant outlined in the OP, Cecil mentioned he had trouble against hydras, so you can try that. Otherwise there really isn't anything weird or special about this, it's simply solid standard play (although a different "standard" than colossus, I guess I should say), so I don't really think there is an "appropriate" response to this style other than just stronger standard play yourself. Having good map awareness and minimizing the damage from WP harass definitely should be your goal as a zerg. I myself am not sure how to best respond to WP harass since I haven't done it too much myself yet, any zergs have any idea? Maybe a few small groups of speedlings?
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United States8476 Posts
On October 14 2011 04:21 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 23:28 NrGmonk wrote:On October 13 2011 18:53 Anihc wrote:On October 13 2011 11:12 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 13 2011 07:27 NrGmonk wrote:These are my thoughts. I'm going to nitpick, so don't take any offense to this criticism. I'm going to consider this as 2 guides, one as an opening build, and one as a final unit composition. First, I'm going to comment on the opening build. Basically, your opening consists of the following: 1 gate fe into 3 gates into fast robo. I feel as if this build has too many flaws for it to truly be considered a solid build. Its weaknesses include: - Roach ling allin: You definitely don't have enough units or tech to defend a standard roach ling allin.
- Fast 2 base muta: Your warp prism gets to his base right around when mutas come out and you neither have the tech or pressure required to combat units.
- Extremely greedy play: I've had players go 4 base on pure ling tech. Yes, this dies to gateway pressure and it's extremely rare, but you can't punish it with the robo build that you suggest.
As for the ending unit composition: - It's been said before that archons aren't really that important in your unit composition. Personally, I never attempt to get archons until extremely late game. I feel like the money you spend on dts could be funneled somewhere else.
- I find your claim that "Voidray/HT/Immortal is basically unbeatable!" is very untrue. Correct ratios of Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor/Ground will demolish that."
Well, I might have too few units early on to survive roach/ling allin, but until I die to it I'll just keep playing like I am. Against fast Muta, aren't you in the perfect situation to defend..? Blink Stalkers + Archon tech shortly after? Against really greedy play, yes you cannot kill them outright, but if you catch wind they're doing this earlier on, then you haven't commit to anything. You can also research Hallu earlier for Phoenix scout, you can use the fast obs I talk about as well. I don't see why this build is any worse than any other, unless you're talking about blind Gateway pressure. Same thing with late game - I'll keep doing what I'm doing until it doesn't work anymore. One thing I really like about opening with an early robo and twilight is that it's so versatile and reactive and you can easily adapt to what your opponent is doing. Standard roach play? You already have immortal/blink/sentry. Scout mutas? You're already getting blink. Hydras? You can easily add on a robo bay. Infestors? Add on a templar archives. This is in contrast with say opening stargate, where you'll end up with more or less useless voids if your opponent is prepared and did something other than standard macro play... like 2 base hydra, infestor, or muta... and then you have a late robo and twilight for late colossus or HT tech. Fighting 2 base muta is no problem at all with this build, and I disagree that a greedy low-tech 4 base ling only build cannot be punished with robo - stalker/sentry/immortal is a mid game composition that is ridiculously cost effective against non-lair tech zerg. You don't need some kind of early warpgate push to punish that, just take your time and don't fret, get a nice sentry count, and once you have infinity force fields you can literally beat 200 supply roach/ling armies. As far as late game goes, no protoss army is really unbeatable, but I feel like part of this style of play is constant aggression, via threatening with your stalker/sentry/immortal ball, and the warp prism harass. The zerg really should never get to hive tech unless you mess up and have to play defensively. Although I didn't follow this build exactly, I started playing around with earlier warp prism harass (usually I don't get WP until later, and then it's only to simultaneously warp zealots into an expo or main while I a-move with a deathball), as well as getting blink earlier if I open robo. And I had a lot of success :p After watching your tal darim game I really like the stalker in WP harass, it's essentially like a void ray harass that's much stronger... and faster. You can go around sniping overlords, taking watch towers, harassing drones, even killing queens if the zerg isn't careful. One advantage people always say opening stargate has and why opening robo sucks is the lack of scouting/harassment - well the stalker in WP play pretty much completely negates that argument. I watched the game on shakruas and I see that his twilight was very early and thus on time vs mutas. I had only seen the previous 3 replays where he got pressured and thus all his buildings were late. Thus, I no longer think the build is terrible versus mutas. However, I still maintain that his particular build is the worst possible thing you can do versus greedy zerg play, ie. 3 base into muta. I feel versus this type of zerg, you only have a 1-2 minute window to punish and if you don't, then afterwards you are way behind. In fact, I dare someone to find a worse build versus this greedy play. Again, I'm not saying this build isn't viable. I'm just trying to nitpick at its weaknesses. Don't worry, I know exactly what you mean by "I like the build but I'm nitpicking at its weaknesses," I do it all the time :p While I agree that 3 base into muta would be a good soft counter to this build, I almost never see 3 base into muta... although I do see 3 base into standard roach/ling into tech switch to muta (damn slush and ostojiy) if that's what you mean. If you go straight into muta without roaches you have that 1-2 minute window to punish it like you said, and that's actually a huge window. If you go standard 3 base play (roach) you have much less time than that to punish it, if any at all. Regardless, I feel perfectly fine with opening robo and battling greedy play. If your opponent is being super greedy with drones, you can punish it with just a straight up attack. If he's being overly cautious and making a ton of units, just harass and take your own 3rd a bit earlier yourself. With this build, I guess it all comes down to how good you are with the WP harass.
When I mean greedy muta play aka 3 base muta, I meant without roaches. Yes, this is rather uncommon and not solid at all from the zerg, but I have seen it around. Roach/ling into muta I feel is one of the best/most common styles zergs can employ.
On October 14 2011 05:44 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:34 DarkOmen wrote:
While I agree that 3 base into muta would be a good soft counter to this build, I almost never see 3 base into muta... although I do see 3 base into standard roach/ling into tech switch to muta (damn slush and ostojiy) if that's what you mean. If you go straight into muta without roaches you have that 1-2 minute window to punish it like you said, and that's actually a huge window. If you go standard 3 base play (roach) you have much less time than that to punish it, if any at all.
Regardless, I feel perfectly fine with opening robo and battling greedy play. If your opponent is being super greedy with drones, you can punish it with just a straight up attack. If he's being overly cautious and making a ton of units, just harass and take your own 3rd a bit earlier yourself. With this build, I guess it all comes down to how good you are with the WP harass.
What would you guys suggest as an appropriate zerg response to this build/opening/whatever? Is 3base with roach/ling into muta the best option in your opinion? I just think 3 base roach into muta is good period. I always have trouble against it no matter what build I do. Mutas are just awesome in ZvP - it's just that if you rush straight for them you're either doing 2 base (low eco) or 3 base (huge timing window where I can just go and kill you). So 3 base roach to minimize that window, and then safely get mutas is tough to beat. As far as this build, in the specific variant outlined in the OP, Cecil mentioned he had trouble against hydras, so you can try that. Otherwise there really isn't anything weird or special about this, it's simply solid standard play (although a different "standard" than colossus, I guess I should say), so I don't really think there is an "appropriate" response to this style other than just stronger standard play yourself. Having good map awareness and minimizing the damage from WP harass definitely should be your goal as a zerg. I myself am not sure how to best respond to WP harass since I haven't done it too much myself yet, any zergs have any idea? Maybe a few small groups of speedlings?
Again, as I've said before, the specific build that the OP uses would die to a roach ling allin, which is kinda a blind counter. However, against the specific style, I feel roach ling muta is actually weaker versus this style than a traditional collosi style. However, I feel roach/ling/infestor would do very well versus this style. Personally, I would play roach/ling/infestor into broodlords.
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On October 14 2011 04:43 name_lock wrote:
Why is it called CvZ? ->
On October 12 2011 03:44 CecilSunkure wrote:
A lot of comments or questions asked so far on in the OP.
On October 14 2011 05:34 DarkOmen wrote:Show nested quote +
While I agree that 3 base into muta would be a good soft counter to this build, I almost never see 3 base into muta... although I do see 3 base into standard roach/ling into tech switch to muta (damn slush and ostojiy) if that's what you mean. If you go straight into muta without roaches you have that 1-2 minute window to punish it like you said, and that's actually a huge window. If you go standard 3 base play (roach) you have much less time than that to punish it, if any at all.
Regardless, I feel perfectly fine with opening robo and battling greedy play. If your opponent is being super greedy with drones, you can punish it with just a straight up attack. If he's being overly cautious and making a ton of units, just harass and take your own 3rd a bit earlier yourself. With this build, I guess it all comes down to how good you are with the WP harass.
What would you guys suggest as an appropriate zerg response to this build/opening/whatever? Is 3base with roach/ling into muta the best option in your opinion?
Roach Ling Infestors is best in my opinion. I feel a high Muta/Ling count is just too vulnerable, and just roaches will die due to being low-tier tech.
Then once you eventually hit BL tech, the Toss is forced to also switch into some other tech route.
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wow thanks for writing this up, will be working on it all day tomorrow !
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On October 14 2011 04:30 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I'm sorry if you think my posts are troll, but I don't like the circle jerk that's involved in "new revolutionary" strategies that are neither new nor revolutionary. If I resurrect Antimage's PvZ (1 gate stargate expand with voidray into early colossus) and then make a guide on it but suggest getting a warp prism from your robo facility as oppose to an early obs, doesn't make it new or mine. It doesn't make it GTL vs Z, it simply makes it a slight variation with the same overarching principle (denying 3rd, forcing queens, forcing spores, stop a zerg from droning). This forum is flooded with builds that bare striking resemblances to other builds and differ in one minor expect that is usually associated with execution -- in that case it's not a build anymore, it's just how you prefer to execute. If Me and MC both 6 gate a terran, he might use FFs to block off the ramp and separate pockets of units, whereas I might use it to stop mass repair on bunkers. Doesn't make the builds different - it's a stylistic choice that is more in the realm of execution. You made a post on how YOU use the IST composition. If i copy the same build order you outline but I suggest an endgame of mothership carrier archon, does it make it mine? does it warrant an elaborate guide? no. Are you pioneering a build order or a style? Because in either case, the build order has been known for a while, and the style has been explored. Minor deviations in how you choose to execute it doesn't make it your own unless your exploiting very subtle timings that only your build has the ability to do .
I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. This build has been popular since the beta and this guide is similar to making a new guide for 4gate where it's "new because you make first pylon on top of your opponent's ramp". IST compositions were used widely by both naniwa and huk for a while now and Plexa covered this in his guide on PvZ several months ago
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Dear GSTAllDayEveryDay and Lamabot and any tempted to clutter this productive conversation with similar statements:
+ Show Spoiler +On October 14 2011 04:07 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
This is not new, IST (Immortal Stalker Templar) has been a viable alternate to SSC(stalker sentry colossus) since the days of late beta/early release. This build has probably received numerous buffs due to the recent Immortal/Archon buff, but the composition has been known for some time now. Is it just me or is all PvX strategies on this forum made by CecilSunkure or Hister just stealing/emulating other builds and passing them off as their own? This akin to the 3 rax being dormant in TvP for some time now, but if stim gets a build time buff, then someone posts a guide on how to 3 rax stim again and passing it off as their own. You think this is akin to a 3 rax guide? You imply that you think so. On October 14 2011 08:16 Lamabot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 04:30 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I'm sorry if you think my posts are troll, but I don't like the circle jerk that's involved in "new revolutionary" strategies that are neither new nor revolutionary. If I resurrect Antimage's PvZ (1 gate stargate expand with voidray into early colossus) and then make a guide on it but suggest getting a warp prism from your robo facility as oppose to an early obs, doesn't make it new or mine. It doesn't make it GTL vs Z, it simply makes it a slight variation with the same overarching principle (denying 3rd, forcing queens, forcing spores, stop a zerg from droning). This forum is flooded with builds that bare striking resemblances to other builds and differ in one minor expect that is usually associated with execution -- in that case it's not a build anymore, it's just how you prefer to execute. If Me and MC both 6 gate a terran, he might use FFs to block off the ramp and separate pockets of units, whereas I might use it to stop mass repair on bunkers. Doesn't make the builds different - it's a stylistic choice that is more in the realm of execution. You made a post on how YOU use the IST composition. If i copy the same build order you outline but I suggest an endgame of mothership carrier archon, does it make it mine? does it warrant an elaborate guide? no. Are you pioneering a build order or a style? Because in either case, the build order has been known for a while, and the style has been explored. Minor deviations in how you choose to execute it doesn't make it your own unless your exploiting very subtle timings that only your build has the ability to do . I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. This build has been popular since the beta and this guide is similar to making a new guide for 4gate where it's "new because you make first pylon on top of your opponent's ramp". IST compositions were used widely by both naniwa and huk for a while now and Plexa covered this in his guide on PvZ several months ago You think this is similar to a 4 Gate Guide that says get a pylon in a new spot? You are implying that is the case. These are rhetorical questions, I was tempted to hit that neat little report button on both of you two's posts but I think it is better to just address it. Cecil is not coming to TL and laying claim to some ground breaking style that every Protoss knows how to do. Cecil is posting a guide on a style that he has been working on that is not well documented in text form. Now my response is and the two posts I am responding two are both not needed in this thread at all and they will simply get in the way of EVERY reader that wants to read about the discussion of this build. The simple phrase that applies to these two posts is, "Don't be hating." There is no reason to randomly slander a well written and informative post that IS going to help some players in the learning process. I am NOT a mod and I am NOT saying that this is unacceptable etc, I am saying that as someone that was participating and following the discussion that is centered around the opening post that your posts are a complete distraction and are really a new conversation. Take it to a new thread perhaps? I am sure that the naming of builds in guide threads is actually a topic that can sustain a good conversation. Make a new thread or whatnot and do it there. I see posts on a completely different topic in a topic I am following and I get 'worried' that the thread will lose focus!
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This seems great, I have gotten bored with SC2 and have abandoned all traditional ways of playing matchups!
Lately I have been using between 3-4 warp prisms and doing heavy harras, and this seems like a fantastic strategy!
One idea though OP, instead of going DT tech, would you have a stronger push if you went HT and storm, and just harassed with warp prisms and zealots, or do the 4 sentry drop into the mineral line?
Just another idea to help with tons of lings and what not, and this way you can feedback the infestors instead of suiciding a group of stalkers, others thoughts?
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On October 14 2011 03:06 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 01:34 Skyro wrote:On October 13 2011 18:53 Anihc wrote:On October 13 2011 11:12 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 13 2011 07:27 NrGmonk wrote:These are my thoughts. I'm going to nitpick, so don't take any offense to this criticism. I'm going to consider this as 2 guides, one as an opening build, and one as a final unit composition. First, I'm going to comment on the opening build. Basically, your opening consists of the following: 1 gate fe into 3 gates into fast robo. I feel as if this build has too many flaws for it to truly be considered a solid build. Its weaknesses include: - Roach ling allin: You definitely don't have enough units or tech to defend a standard roach ling allin.
- Fast 2 base muta: Your warp prism gets to his base right around when mutas come out and you neither have the tech or pressure required to combat units.
- Extremely greedy play: I've had players go 4 base on pure ling tech. Yes, this dies to gateway pressure and it's extremely rare, but you can't punish it with the robo build that you suggest.
As for the ending unit composition: - It's been said before that archons aren't really that important in your unit composition. Personally, I never attempt to get archons until extremely late game. I feel like the money you spend on dts could be funneled somewhere else.
- I find your claim that "Voidray/HT/Immortal is basically unbeatable!" is very untrue. Correct ratios of Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor/Ground will demolish that."
Well, I might have too few units early on to survive roach/ling allin, but until I die to it I'll just keep playing like I am. Against fast Muta, aren't you in the perfect situation to defend..? Blink Stalkers + Archon tech shortly after? Against really greedy play, yes you cannot kill them outright, but if you catch wind they're doing this earlier on, then you haven't commit to anything. You can also research Hallu earlier for Phoenix scout, you can use the fast obs I talk about as well. I don't see why this build is any worse than any other, unless you're talking about blind Gateway pressure. Same thing with late game - I'll keep doing what I'm doing until it doesn't work anymore. One thing I really like about opening with an early robo and twilight is that it's so versatile and reactive and you can easily adapt to what your opponent is doing. Standard roach play? You already have immortal/blink/sentry. Scout mutas? You're already getting blink. Hydras? You can easily add on a robo bay. Infestors? Add on a templar archives. This is in contrast with say opening stargate, where you'll end up with more or less useless voids if your opponent is prepared and did something other than standard macro play... like 2 base hydra, infestor, or muta... and then you have a late robo and twilight for late colossus or HT tech. Fighting 2 base muta is no problem at all with this build, and I disagree that a greedy low-tech 4 base ling only build cannot be punished with robo - stalker/sentry/immortal is a mid game composition that is ridiculously cost effective against non-lair tech zerg. You don't need some kind of early warpgate push to punish that, just take your time and don't fret, get a nice sentry count, and once you have infinity force fields you can literally beat 200 supply roach/ling armies. As far as late game goes, no protoss army is really unbeatable, but I feel like part of this style of play is constant aggression, via threatening with your stalker/sentry/immortal ball, and the warp prism harass. The zerg really should never get to hive tech unless you mess up and have to play defensively. Although I didn't follow this build exactly, I started playing around with earlier warp prism harass (usually I don't get WP until later, and then it's only to simultaneously warp zealots into an expo or main while I a-move with a deathball), as well as getting blink earlier if I open robo. And I had a lot of success :p After watching your tal darim game I really like the stalker in WP harass, it's essentially like a void ray harass that's much stronger... and faster. You can go around sniping overlords, taking watch towers, harassing drones, even killing queens if the zerg isn't careful. One advantage people always say opening stargate has and why opening robo sucks is the lack of scouting/harassment - well the stalker in WP play pretty much completely negates that argument. I also have been utilizing robo twilight in PvZ a lot and I agree on your points. In particular though I like going twilight -> robo. I feel it is more versatile and if you're like me and prefer getting early upgrades it allows for a faster +2 weapons. Opening robo blindly has weaknesses that can be exploited such as spire play. You should watch the Shakuras replay, in regards to your spire point.
Yeah I did watch the replays. You basically caught him in a tech switch to infestors. I'm not exactly sure what the zerg's reasoning was there to tech to infestors (I guess in response to seeing blink stalkers?), but for me at least as a protoss player seeing mutas on the field always makes me want to push the zerg since mutas aren't great in a straight up battle. I guess he thought he could distract you with his handful of mutas long enough. IMO he would've won by simply continuing to mass mutas and making a ton of crawlers and either engaging with a pure mutaling army at his crawlers or via a base race.
Also in those replays the DTs just did not seem to have been very effective and most of the time you just ended up morphing them into archons. DT use is still good at denying expos and map control but nowadays zerg players get spores up in their bases blindly so their harassment potential seems limited in this matchup in the current metagame. HTs would have been a much more effective transition. You can still storm drop with HTs as well so it's not like HTs cannot harass.
Also in regards to the prism you should consider doing the 4 sentry drop where you FF b/w their main and natural. You already are so stalker and sentry at that point in the game it is a natural transition. If you went robo first you can hit them early around 9 mins before their muta or infestor tech gets going, or if you went TC into robo you can hit them later with a stronger version with blink.
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Hey with the 1gate FE, isn't it better to put your gates in your base so if Zerg goes for heavy roach aggression they can't snipe your infrastructure/un-power your gates?
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On October 15 2011 02:25 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
Hey with the 1gate FE, isn't it better to put your gates in your base so if Zerg goes for heavy roach aggression they can't snipe your infrastructure/un-power your gates?
Yea, I have mixed feelings about where to put those gates. I shift back and forth between placing them in the main vs in the natural.
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I also changed PvZ a couple months ago. I go Immortal/blink stalker with attack upgrades and take a fast third while adding my templar archives.
Immortal/blink/HT is so good vs Zerg, it's anti roach, ling, infestor and muta, so if your opponent didn't go very heavy T3 (broodlords) by the you have like 8 HTs and 8ish Immortals are up, he's kind of boned.
I'll have to try this build as well, it looks really good!
You know I'm always surprised to see how good Immortals vs Zerg. Like after 2 or 3 big battles I've lost 2-3 Immortals and all the rest of them have 10+ kills.
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On October 15 2011 02:54 skatbone wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 02:25 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
Hey with the 1gate FE, isn't it better to put your gates in your base so if Zerg goes for heavy roach aggression they can't snipe your infrastructure/un-power your gates? Yea, I have mixed feelings about where to put those gates. I shift back and forth between placing them in the main vs in the natural.
On the low ground, otherwise you cannot take your Natural. If you have mixed feelings, then research into recent PvZ replays (including mine in the OP) and figure out how the Gateways on low ground help you take a faster Nexus.
On October 15 2011 02:19 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 03:06 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 14 2011 01:34 Skyro wrote:On October 13 2011 18:53 Anihc wrote:On October 13 2011 11:12 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 13 2011 07:27 NrGmonk wrote:These are my thoughts. I'm going to nitpick, so don't take any offense to this criticism. I'm going to consider this as 2 guides, one as an opening build, and one as a final unit composition. First, I'm going to comment on the opening build. Basically, your opening consists of the following: 1 gate fe into 3 gates into fast robo. I feel as if this build has too many flaws for it to truly be considered a solid build. Its weaknesses include: - Roach ling allin: You definitely don't have enough units or tech to defend a standard roach ling allin.
- Fast 2 base muta: Your warp prism gets to his base right around when mutas come out and you neither have the tech or pressure required to combat units.
- Extremely greedy play: I've had players go 4 base on pure ling tech. Yes, this dies to gateway pressure and it's extremely rare, but you can't punish it with the robo build that you suggest.
As for the ending unit composition: - It's been said before that archons aren't really that important in your unit composition. Personally, I never attempt to get archons until extremely late game. I feel like the money you spend on dts could be funneled somewhere else.
- I find your claim that "Voidray/HT/Immortal is basically unbeatable!" is very untrue. Correct ratios of Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor/Ground will demolish that."
Well, I might have too few units early on to survive roach/ling allin, but until I die to it I'll just keep playing like I am. Against fast Muta, aren't you in the perfect situation to defend..? Blink Stalkers + Archon tech shortly after? Against really greedy play, yes you cannot kill them outright, but if you catch wind they're doing this earlier on, then you haven't commit to anything. You can also research Hallu earlier for Phoenix scout, you can use the fast obs I talk about as well. I don't see why this build is any worse than any other, unless you're talking about blind Gateway pressure. Same thing with late game - I'll keep doing what I'm doing until it doesn't work anymore. One thing I really like about opening with an early robo and twilight is that it's so versatile and reactive and you can easily adapt to what your opponent is doing. Standard roach play? You already have immortal/blink/sentry. Scout mutas? You're already getting blink. Hydras? You can easily add on a robo bay. Infestors? Add on a templar archives. This is in contrast with say opening stargate, where you'll end up with more or less useless voids if your opponent is prepared and did something other than standard macro play... like 2 base hydra, infestor, or muta... and then you have a late robo and twilight for late colossus or HT tech. Fighting 2 base muta is no problem at all with this build, and I disagree that a greedy low-tech 4 base ling only build cannot be punished with robo - stalker/sentry/immortal is a mid game composition that is ridiculously cost effective against non-lair tech zerg. You don't need some kind of early warpgate push to punish that, just take your time and don't fret, get a nice sentry count, and once you have infinity force fields you can literally beat 200 supply roach/ling armies. As far as late game goes, no protoss army is really unbeatable, but I feel like part of this style of play is constant aggression, via threatening with your stalker/sentry/immortal ball, and the warp prism harass. The zerg really should never get to hive tech unless you mess up and have to play defensively. Although I didn't follow this build exactly, I started playing around with earlier warp prism harass (usually I don't get WP until later, and then it's only to simultaneously warp zealots into an expo or main while I a-move with a deathball), as well as getting blink earlier if I open robo. And I had a lot of success :p After watching your tal darim game I really like the stalker in WP harass, it's essentially like a void ray harass that's much stronger... and faster. You can go around sniping overlords, taking watch towers, harassing drones, even killing queens if the zerg isn't careful. One advantage people always say opening stargate has and why opening robo sucks is the lack of scouting/harassment - well the stalker in WP play pretty much completely negates that argument. I also have been utilizing robo twilight in PvZ a lot and I agree on your points. In particular though I like going twilight -> robo. I feel it is more versatile and if you're like me and prefer getting early upgrades it allows for a faster +2 weapons. Opening robo blindly has weaknesses that can be exploited such as spire play. You should watch the Shakuras replay, in regards to your spire point. Yeah I did watch the replays. You basically caught him in a tech switch to infestors. I'm not exactly sure what the zerg's reasoning was there to tech to infestors (I guess in response to seeing blink stalkers?), but for me at least as a protoss player seeing mutas on the field always makes me want to push the zerg since mutas aren't great in a straight up battle. I guess he thought he could distract you with his handful of mutas long enough. IMO he would've won by simply continuing to mass mutas and making a ton of crawlers and either engaging with a pure mutaling army at his crawlers or via a base race. Also in those replays the DTs just did not seem to have been very effective and most of the time you just ended up morphing them into archons. DT use is still good at denying expos and map control but nowadays zerg players get spores up in their bases blindly so their harassment potential seems limited in this matchup in the current metagame. HTs would have been a much more effective transition. You can still storm drop with HTs as well so it's not like HTs cannot harass. Also in regards to the prism you should consider doing the 4 sentry drop where you FF b/w their main and natural. You already are so stalker and sentry at that point in the game it is a natural transition. If you went robo first you can hit them early around 9 mins before their muta or infestor tech gets going, or if you went TC into robo you can hit them later with a stronger version with blink.
He switched to Infestors so that he wouldn't die to my army. If he just made more Muta/Ling he still wouldn't have been able to engage my army, due to not dealing any initial damage with the Mutas. Also, why would I engage into spines..? His best bet was to definitely try to defend, as it isn't smart to try to base race a player with Blink + Archons with Muta/Ling, when he already is heavily cannoned.
As for Sentry drop, I just prefer having less risk in my Prism (vespene), and like the Sentries in my army. It's personal preference.
As for DT tech not dealing a ton of damage, you don't need to deal a ton of damage. It's just a very good tech to have throughout the game. They are great in your army composition, and grant access to more vespene cheap Archons. They force down perpetual Overseers, and lots of Spores + harass defence. They can also kill buildings, which HT cannot.
As for 2 base HT + storm, you won't have many HT to spare in the event you get into a battle. You also won't have enough energy for FB + Storm in the event that you come up against Ling/Infestor. It's also very hard to fight Muta/Ling, due to having very limited storm count. It's just not reliable to rely on killing off super mobile units with a couple spells. In the event you are using your already very limited storms in a drop, that's even less in the event of an engagement.
I highly recommend HT on 3+ base, but not earlier than.
On October 14 2011 14:12 Balgrog wrote:
Just another idea to help with tons of lings and what not, and this way you can feedback the infestors instead of suiciding a group of stalkers, others thoughts?
That's a pretty bad idea. You won't have enough feedback to defeat 2 base vs 2 base if they just get a lot of Infestors. It isn't suiciding Stalkers, most of the time they don't even all die. It's picking off Infestors with a lot of energy.
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On October 14 2011 06:36 CecilSunkure wrote:
Then once you eventually hit BL tech, the Toss is forced to also switch into some other tech route.
Couldn't this style, once broodlords are out, proceed into the HUARGH-style mothership play? It seems like the logical progression for zerg, against this composition, is broodlords, which the mothership-style works quite well against.
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i played against one of you evil protoss before. WHAT DO I DO AGAINST THAT AS ZERG
he actually just 2-base timing pushed me and (if i remmeber correctly) used high templar to morph archons. how can i exploit this style as zerg?
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United States8476 Posts
On October 15 2011 04:29 Tal0n wrote:i played against one of you evil protoss before. WHAT DO I DO AGAINST THAT AS ZERG he actually just 2-base timing pushed me and (if i remmeber correctly) used high templar to morph archons. how can i exploit this style as zerg?
If you lost to a 2 base push with this composition as zerg, you probably just didn't have enough units. Roach ling, Roach hydra, roach ling hydra, roach ling infestor should all easily beat this type of push.
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He switched to Infestors so that he wouldn't die to my army. If he just made more Muta/Ling he still wouldn't have been able to engage my army, due to not dealing any initial damage with the Mutas. Also, why would I engage into spines..? His best bet was to definitely try to defend, as it isn't smart to try to base race a player with Blink + Archons with Muta/Ling, when he already is heavily cannoned.
Well if his reasoning to tech switch to infestors was to deal with your army it was pretty pointless since he lost a straight up battle anyway no? That's the point I was trying to make, that mutas bait a Protoss to push and that tech switching during this time period is a huge gamble.
However if he channeled all his resources spent on infestors into more mutas and spines he could've taken out your cannons and probe lines (actually your 2nd base wasn't even cannoned IIRC) when you pushed out, and then depending on the situation he can either attempt a base race or just fly back and try to engage at his front now their your econ is shot. If he does destroy your econ you're pretty much forced to attack into his spines.
Of course I'm not saying this is a guaranteed win for zerg as you could possibly still break his front, or you can turtle to HT and weaken his mutas and grab your 3rd and progress from there etc. etc., but I reckon this isn't a position that most protoss players would consider favorable. This is why personally I prefer to hit at a pre-muta timing with warp prisms if I went robo first, and if TC first then of course I would be in a more defensive stance.
As for DT tech not dealing a ton of damage, you don't need to deal a ton of damage. It's just a very good tech to have throughout the game. They are great in your army composition, and grant access to more vespene cheap Archons. They force down perpetual Overseers, and lots of Spores + harass defence. They can also kill buildings, which HT cannot.
As for 2 base HT + storm, you won't have many HT to spare in the event you get into a battle. You also won't have enough energy for FB + Storm in the event that you come up against Ling/Infestor. It's also very hard to fight Muta/Ling, due to having very limited storm count. It's just not reliable to rely on killing off super mobile units with a couple spells. In the event you are using your already very limited storms in a drop, that's even less in the event of an engagement.
I highly recommend HT on 3+ base, but not earlier than.
You know in retrospect I can see your point here. I tend to favor the heavy zealot opening out of a FFE, which affords me the gas to actually get HT on 2 base, but if you're going for a stalker/sentry heavy composition out of a gateway into expo you won't have the spare gas, and DTs also hedge your risk to mutas as well since you can delay mass expos from zerg while he is harassing with mutas, giving you option and time needed to turtle up and tech to HT and grab a third if you don't think you can push him.
You know what would be cool though is if you get some replays and/or a guide out for the 1-gate expo since that seems to be your expo of choice. It's an opening I have been attempting to learn but I must be missing some of the ins-and-outs because I am getting wrecked by roachling all-ins or mass lings denying/delaying the expo. It seems to be a very nuanced opening that depends a lot on scouting that I think would be very well received.
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Cecil, I need help with my ZvC. =P
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On October 15 2011 04:54 Skyro wrote:
Well if his reasoning to tech switch to infestors was to deal with your army it was pretty pointless since he lost a straight up battle anyway no? That's the point I was trying to make, that mutas bait a Protoss to push and that tech switching during this time period is a huge gamble.
Well 2 base muta like that was the real gamble, not so much a tech switch.
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I like this build a lot, but I prefer going for ht instead of dt and getting a faster third(11min ish). With the fast dts you get great harass but I feel like you need better splash than just archons at tha time in the game, and feedback is a nice thing to have aswell.
The warp prism stalker harass is quite an epiphany,so amazing :p
This is so relentless at punishing any mistake the zerg makes, if he misses the prims he loses drones but also exposes himself to a immortal/gateway push with infinite forcefields. Love it
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What do you do with this style if the zerg goes for a 2 base infestor ling timing push?
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On October 17 2011 15:31 DgSensei wrote:
What do you do with this style if the zerg goes for a 2 base infestor ling timing push?
I don't know of a good "ling Infestor" timing push. You should be able to beat that with any good army and good macro. Archons are exceptionally good against Ling/Infestor.
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United States8476 Posts
On October 17 2011 15:44 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2011 15:31 DgSensei wrote:
What do you do with this style if the zerg goes for a 2 base infestor ling timing push? I don't know of a good "ling Infestor" timing push. You should be able to beat that with any good army and good macro. Archons are exceptionally good against Ling/Infestor.
Ling infestor timings are quite common. They hit around 10:30 with 2 base lings and about 5-6 infestors. Off the top of my head, players like Destiny, DRG, and Monster have been known to do such attacks. I'm certain there's more, because I see it quite a lot in the GSL. They're really quite good too. I can see how your style would have trouble with it. Usually, you can't hold them off without either a collosi, storm done, cannons, or just plain lots of gateway units, especially zealots. Because this style invests so much on tech and has a lot of units placed in warp prisms, I can see how it would be hard to defend such an attack. However, on the flip side of the coin, the zerg has to be able to defend his base from the warp prism harass, so that may delay the timing.
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Once again a fantastic guide Cecil, thanks for the contribution!
Can I ask, how is this playstyle different to the recent guide Noumena posted on warp prism? I can see you have a lot more depth regarding late game composition compared to his but otherwise, the main difference I see is (1) He opts for FFE, you go 1GFE (2) uses early zealot pressure at 6:20-7min to scout (3) he almost avoids sentries altogether, you make lots of sentries and therefore ur mid/late game army is arguably stronger due to infinite FF
Is that correct? It actually seems that you both have similar playstyles, but you are more sentry-focused but Noumena is not, and this is almost a result of choosing different opening builds (cos 1GFE requires you to get sentries, but FFE does not). Im a pretty low level player so my insight could be way off so would be good if someone more experienced can clarify
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looks cool, I'll definitely give it a try when i screw around on ladder as toss.
You try mixing in hallucination? I think your composition has more than enough sentry energy for forcefields; if you decided to forgo the DT harass, zerg usually wont get overseers (aside from those used for scouting) and a few hallucinated archons could really help out.
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On October 18 2011 07:37 TutsiRebel wrote:
looks cool, I'll definitely give it a try when i screw around on ladder as toss.
You try mixing in hallucination? I think your composition has more than enough sentry energy for forcefields; if you decided to forgo the DT harass, zerg usually wont get overseers (aside from those used for scouting) and a few hallucinated archons could really help out.
No reason not to
On October 18 2011 07:15 bankai wrote:Once again a fantastic guide Cecil, thanks for the contribution! Can I ask, how is this playstyle different to the recent guide Noumena posted on warp prism? I can see you have a lot more depth regarding late game composition compared to his but otherwise, the main difference I see is (1) He opts for FFE, you go 1GFE (2) uses early zealot pressure at 6:20-7min to scout (3) he almost avoids sentries altogether, you make lots of sentries and therefore ur mid/late game army is arguably stronger due to infinite FF Is that correct? It actually seems that you both have similar playstyles, but you are more sentry-focused but Noumena is not, and this is almost a result of choosing different opening builds (cos 1GFE requires you to get sentries, but FFE does not). Im a pretty low level player so my insight could be way off so would be good if someone more experienced can clarify
I don't know, I didn't read that thread.
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On October 15 2011 04:29 Tal0n wrote:i played against one of you evil protoss before. WHAT DO I DO AGAINST THAT AS ZERG he actually just 2-base timing pushed me and (if i remmeber correctly) used high templar to morph archons. how can i exploit this style as zerg?
Build relies on WP harass while taking risky 3rd into deathball. Crushing this build relies in effectively dealing with WP harass, while punishing lack of units to defend 3rd (map dependant).
- Creep spread inside your main, so queens can move faster to hit WP's
- If you're not going fast muta or hydra (lol), then when you see the WP, you want to be on 4queens on 2 bases. Extra queens for chasing WP without sacrificing injects.
- Macro hatch, with mid-game being roach/ling based. If you can confirm he's 100% going Robo & DT tech, then you should be easily able to take a 3rd AND a macro hatch.
- If you're really struggling with WP harass, you want 10-14 zerglings on 'a-move' on the WP. they'll follow it around as best they can, and as long as you tell them to 'a-move' on it when it re-appears, you'll be shutting down any WP harass that is relying on zealot/stalker warp-ins.
Spare queens should come to assist if he tries to hard-warpin.
- BE AWARE of when he is taking his 3rd, you do not want to let him get away with this. He's going for DT's AND Robo AND blink AND a 3rd. You should not let him safely take his 3rd before DT's are out, or a decent amount of immortals. If you're good at deny the WP from doing damage (it's quite easy to stop it), he should be warping-in at his base.
The issue arises in trying to figure out if he is actually doing this specific build, as there are some more macro-oriented robo/twilight builds that incorporate blink stalkers & WP Harass - but they have the units to kill you earlier if you're greedy, or take a respectable 3rd. They cut out Tier 3 tech till after 3rd is secure.
Also, you're not going to totally prevent him from taking a 3rd, he'll get it eventually with DT tech or enough units, so you need to have a solid transition in mind to get you up to 4-bases. Suggest transitioning into Hydralisks at around the time he CAN safely take his 3rd.
- Spore + Spine @ expansions for DT's, including your main (DT drops).
Edit: this is from Protoss POV.
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On October 18 2011 08:13 Trusty wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 04:29 Tal0n wrote:i played against one of you evil protoss before. WHAT DO I DO AGAINST THAT AS ZERG he actually just 2-base timing pushed me and (if i remmeber correctly) used high templar to morph archons. how can i exploit this style as zerg? Build relies on WP harass while taking risky 3rd into deathball. Crushing this build relies in effectively dealing with WP harass, while punishing lack of units to defend 3rd (map dependant).
This is pretty bad advice... The build (playstyle) doesn't rely on WP harass in the way you are implying, and the third isn't risky. You also don't construct a deathball.
If anyone wants advice on a better way to play, look up with Anihc said a page or so ago.
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I struggle heavily vs this composition - but I started facing it around April. It's when my ZvP absolutely plummeted in win% because up til that point I had played sling/bling/muta. And this was before the patch that buffed archons, which only made things worse once people started using them more. I typically only go to hydras as reactionary measures - while it is good vs this unit composition, you have to start making them before you realize they're going it - otherwise if you start transitioning to hydra storm will be ready which annihilates hydras so badly.
As a lategame transition I've seen Protoss mix in void rays as well, which absolutley demolish my BL if you can get feedbacks off on the infestors.
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I like this build but I cannot find the reason for goting DT first as apposed to high templar
I think that the high templar could stop any major ling compositions for a cheaper price and get storm earlier
Also the warp prisim harrass should have a zerg in thier base without the need for DT until after the engagement
If you could tell me the huge gains of going DT first that would be great
Thanks in advance
DuBlooNz
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On October 19 2011 05:45 DuBlooNz wrote:
I like this build but I cannot find the reason for goting DT first as apposed to high templar
I think that the high templar could stop any major ling compositions for a cheaper price and get storm earlier
Also the warp prisim harrass should have a zerg in thier base without the need for DT until after the engagement
If you could tell me the huge gains of going DT first that would be great
Thanks in advance
DuBlooNz
I don't like spending such a huge vespene investment on HT on only 2 base. DT provide cheaper Archons and great harass synergy with the Warp Prism.
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How do you deal with roach/ling allins without cannons? I use the same build as you but i add an forge that delays my robo a bit.
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On October 20 2011 02:57 fanvadmeck wrote:
How do you deal with roach/ling allins without cannons? I use the same build as you but i add an forge that delays my robo a bit.
I just survive with Gatway units, Sim-City, and good FF usage. I chrono gates heavily as well, and, chrono Immortal the moment the Robo finishes.
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can i ask why u wallof ur main ramp like taht at the start? cool build tho gna prac it right away
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i loaded the video from hotkeyit, was soooo pumped it was free. internet died, went to re-load it and now its only 2 minute segment, and you dont even split your probes before that ends haha
Will have to check replay, but this style looks awesome.
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United States8476 Posts
On October 20 2011 02:59 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 02:57 fanvadmeck wrote:
How do you deal with roach/ling allins without cannons? I use the same build as you but i add an forge that delays my robo a bit. I just survive with Gatway units, Sim-City, and good FF usage. I chrono gates heavily as well, and, chrono Immortal the moment the Robo finishes.
Your current build in your replay currently can't hold off a roach ling allin, even with perfect sim city/forcefields.
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On October 20 2011 05:08 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 02:59 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 20 2011 02:57 fanvadmeck wrote:
How do you deal with roach/ling allins without cannons? I use the same build as you but i add an forge that delays my robo a bit. I just survive with Gatway units, Sim-City, and good FF usage. I chrono gates heavily as well, and, chrono Immortal the moment the Robo finishes. Your current build in your replay currently can't hold off a roach ling allin, even with perfect sim city/forcefields.
Well okay, is that because of a lack of a forge?
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United States8476 Posts
On October 20 2011 05:10 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 05:08 NrGmonk wrote:On October 20 2011 02:59 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 20 2011 02:57 fanvadmeck wrote:
How do you deal with roach/ling allins without cannons? I use the same build as you but i add an forge that delays my robo a bit. I just survive with Gatway units, Sim-City, and good FF usage. I chrono gates heavily as well, and, chrono Immortal the moment the Robo finishes. Your current build in your replay currently can't hold off a roach ling allin, even with perfect sim city/forcefields. Well okay, is that because of a lack of a forge?
You only really hold off roach ling allin with one of 4 ways off 1 gate fe. Voidray, dts, very heavily chornoed gateway units off 4+ gates, or a few preemptive cannons that finish very early before the window of roach ling aggression comes(7:00-7:50). Since your build has none of these, I very highly doubt it can hold a roach ling allin.
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On October 20 2011 05:16 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 05:10 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 20 2011 05:08 NrGmonk wrote:On October 20 2011 02:59 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 20 2011 02:57 fanvadmeck wrote:
How do you deal with roach/ling allins without cannons? I use the same build as you but i add an forge that delays my robo a bit. I just survive with Gatway units, Sim-City, and good FF usage. I chrono gates heavily as well, and, chrono Immortal the moment the Robo finishes. Your current build in your replay currently can't hold off a roach ling allin, even with perfect sim city/forcefields. Well okay, is that because of a lack of a forge? You only really hold off roach ling allin with one of 4 ways off forge fe. Voidray, dts, very heavily chornoed gateway units off 4+ gates, or a few preemptive cannons that finish very early before the window of roach ling aggression comes(7:00-7:50). Since your build has none of these, I very highly doubt it can hold a roach ling allin.
am i missing something? his opening isn't ffe (at least not the one he recommended) O_o.
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On October 20 2011 05:16 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 05:10 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 20 2011 05:08 NrGmonk wrote:On October 20 2011 02:59 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 20 2011 02:57 fanvadmeck wrote:
How do you deal with roach/ling allins without cannons? I use the same build as you but i add an forge that delays my robo a bit. I just survive with Gatway units, Sim-City, and good FF usage. I chrono gates heavily as well, and, chrono Immortal the moment the Robo finishes. Your current build in your replay currently can't hold off a roach ling allin, even with perfect sim city/forcefields. Well okay, is that because of a lack of a forge? You only really hold off roach ling allin with one of 4 ways off forge fe. Voidray, dts, very heavily chornoed gateway units off 4+ gates, or a few preemptive cannons that finish very early before the window of roach ling aggression comes(7:00-7:50). Since your build has none of these, I very highly doubt it can hold a roach ling allin.
I see. Then it's really just an opening problem, not a build problem. You should be a bit more clear, because it's confusing when you say build and you're talking about the opening.
I'll be aware of what you pointed out and see what I come up with in the future regarding the suggested opening in the OP.
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Very handsome. Yet another way Protoss can use the WP - use em!
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United States8476 Posts
On October 20 2011 05:19 Complete wrote:
am i missing something? his opening isn't ffe (at least not the one he recommended) O_o.
Typo =P
On October 20 2011 05:23 CecilSunkure wrote:
I see. Then it's really just an opening problem, not a build problem. You should be a bit more clear, because it's confusing when you say build and you're talking about the opening.
I'll be aware of what you pointed out and see what I come up with in the future regarding the suggested opening in the OP.
Noted =P
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On October 20 2011 05:31 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 05:19 Complete wrote:
am i missing something? his opening isn't ffe (at least not the one he recommended) O_o. Typo =P Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 05:23 CecilSunkure wrote:
I see. Then it's really just an opening problem, not a build problem. You should be a bit more clear, because it's confusing when you say build and you're talking about the opening.
I'll be aware of what you pointed out and see what I come up with in the future regarding the suggested opening in the OP. Noted =P
^_^
Could you get like a replay of a roach ling allin vs you and post it up? Would be nice to have. If not I can try to remember to ask a teammate to practice it with me sometime soon.
On October 20 2011 04:36 TechnoSchaman wrote:
i loaded the video from hotkeyit, was soooo pumped it was free. internet died, went to re-load it and now its only 2 minute segment, and you dont even split your probes before that ends haha
Will have to check replay, but this style looks awesome.
Awe dang >< Someone must have decided to make it not-free D:
On October 20 2011 03:45 Dezire wrote:
can i ask why u wallof ur main ramp like taht at the start? cool build tho gna prac it right away
I do that so that I can slip a line of units between two of the Gateways.
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extremely good guide! only problem would be low econ mass ling pressure from zerg on a small map, this will force you out of this build
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On October 20 2011 05:37 starbreaker10 wrote:
extremely good guide! only problem would be low econ mass ling pressure from zerg on a small map, this will force you out of this build
Are you sure? Fast DT tech would do really well vs low-econ mass lings. So would sim-city at your natural.
Or are you talking about mass-lings vs the opening? I've done just fine vs a whole array of ling allins with a 1 Gate FE.
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United States8476 Posts
On October 20 2011 05:32 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 05:31 NrGmonk wrote:On October 20 2011 05:19 Complete wrote:
am i missing something? his opening isn't ffe (at least not the one he recommended) O_o. Typo =P On October 20 2011 05:23 CecilSunkure wrote:
I see. Then it's really just an opening problem, not a build problem. You should be a bit more clear, because it's confusing when you say build and you're talking about the opening.
I'll be aware of what you pointed out and see what I come up with in the future regarding the suggested opening in the OP. Noted =P ^_^ Could you get like a replay of a roach ling allin vs you and post it up? Would be nice to have. If not I can try to remember to ask a teammate to practice it with me sometime soon. Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 04:36 TechnoSchaman wrote:
i loaded the video from hotkeyit, was soooo pumped it was free. internet died, went to re-load it and now its only 2 minute segment, and you dont even split your probes before that ends haha
Will have to check replay, but this style looks awesome. Awe dang >< Someone must have decided to make it not-free D: Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 03:45 Dezire wrote:
can i ask why u wallof ur main ramp like taht at the start? cool build tho gna prac it right away I do that so that I can slip a line of units between two of the Gateways.
Here's the most allin version I've ever seen by far. Hits at 6:45 versus 1 gate fe. Zerg has 18 drones at this point.
http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season6/guangzhou/sc2/playoffs/download/25801981/
Here's the most macro version I've seen. Losira does it in both games. Hits at 7:50 with zerg having ~35 drones.
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65189
All other versions fall within this spectrum.
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On October 20 2011 05:44 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 05:37 starbreaker10 wrote:
extremely good guide! only problem would be low econ mass ling pressure from zerg on a small map, this will force you out of this build Are you sure? Fast DT tech would do really well vs low-econ mass lings. So would sim-city at your natural. Or are you talking about mass-lings vs the opening? I've done just fine vs a whole array of ling allins with a 1 Gate FE.
hehe im talking about the very early portion of this opening, im sure you do well, but with my micro/skill level, i find it very hard to 1 gate expand vs mass speedling (usually low econ). particularly in the moment im actually trying to lay down the nexus and there comes a flank with a ton of lings and im stuck with 1 zealot 2 sentrys and 2 unfinished gateways. any tips on approaching this moment? im mid masters fyi
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On October 20 2011 05:47 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 05:32 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 20 2011 05:31 NrGmonk wrote:On October 20 2011 05:19 Complete wrote:
am i missing something? his opening isn't ffe (at least not the one he recommended) O_o. Typo =P On October 20 2011 05:23 CecilSunkure wrote:
I see. Then it's really just an opening problem, not a build problem. You should be a bit more clear, because it's confusing when you say build and you're talking about the opening.
I'll be aware of what you pointed out and see what I come up with in the future regarding the suggested opening in the OP. Noted =P ^_^ Could you get like a replay of a roach ling allin vs you and post it up? Would be nice to have. If not I can try to remember to ask a teammate to practice it with me sometime soon. On October 20 2011 04:36 TechnoSchaman wrote:
i loaded the video from hotkeyit, was soooo pumped it was free. internet died, went to re-load it and now its only 2 minute segment, and you dont even split your probes before that ends haha
Will have to check replay, but this style looks awesome. Awe dang >< Someone must have decided to make it not-free D: On October 20 2011 03:45 Dezire wrote:
can i ask why u wallof ur main ramp like taht at the start? cool build tho gna prac it right away I do that so that I can slip a line of units between two of the Gateways. Here's the most allin version I've ever seen by far. Hits at 6:45 versus 1 gate fe. Zerg has 18 drones at this point. http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season6/guangzhou/sc2/playoffs/download/25801981/Here's the most macro version I've seen. Losira does it in both games. Hits at 7:50 with zerg having ~35 drones. http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65189All other versions fall within this spectrum.
tyty!
On October 20 2011 05:50 starbreaker10 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 05:44 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 20 2011 05:37 starbreaker10 wrote:
extremely good guide! only problem would be low econ mass ling pressure from zerg on a small map, this will force you out of this build Are you sure? Fast DT tech would do really well vs low-econ mass lings. So would sim-city at your natural. Or are you talking about mass-lings vs the opening? I've done just fine vs a whole array of ling allins with a 1 Gate FE. hehe im talking about the very early portion of this opening, im sure you do well, but with my micro/skill level, i find it very hard to 1 gate expand vs mass speedling (usually low econ). particularly in the moment im actually trying to lay down the nexus and there comes a flank with a ton of lings and im stuck with 1 zealot 2 sentrys and 2 unfinished gateways. any tips on approaching this moment? im mid masters fyi
If it's difficult, then do it! Pushing yourself will get you better. My tip is to use really intelligent sim-city with your first low-ground pylon and your units. Also you should be constructing sentries from your first gateway at all times! Check out my replays for ling defense, basically.
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jesus this is strong. I only watched 2 replays, and have played it three times now usually winning as my third gets up with that push with 2-4 archons.
Just curious (if its in replay lemme know which) when templar archive gets dropped in regards to third base. Is it as you get third, or after initial push or during push or what. I havent needed storm as Ive won with the initial push each time by dropping at his third or main, zerg 1As everything in there, and i just FF into/ out of their base and clean up.
But just curious on that timing
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On October 20 2011 05:57 TechnoSchaman wrote:
jesus this is strong. I only watched 2 replays, and have played it three times now usually winning as my third gets up with that push with 2-4 archons.
Just curious (if its in replay lemme know which) when templar archive gets dropped in regards to third base. Is it as you get third, or after initial push or during push or what. I havent needed storm as Ive won with the initial push each time by dropping at his third or main, zerg 1As everything in there, and i just FF into/ out of their base and clean up.
But just curious on that timing
Varies from game to game. I get it the moment I can afford it without fear of losing due to the sunk costs (usually just after third base finishes I think). I usually also am doing heavy harass to buy time until I have actual storms ready. Just be aware that right around this time is common for a Muta tech switch from the Zerg opponent. I lost a game to Catz the other day like this trying to go for HT, with my army threatening in the middle of the map. His mutas finished, and I didn't have anything to protect my probes.
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On October 20 2011 05:59 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 05:57 TechnoSchaman wrote:
jesus this is strong. I only watched 2 replays, and have played it three times now usually winning as my third gets up with that push with 2-4 archons.
Just curious (if its in replay lemme know which) when templar archive gets dropped in regards to third base. Is it as you get third, or after initial push or during push or what. I havent needed storm as Ive won with the initial push each time by dropping at his third or main, zerg 1As everything in there, and i just FF into/ out of their base and clean up.
But just curious on that timing Varies from game to game. I get it the moment I can afford it without fear of losing due to the sunk costs (usually just after third base finishes I think). I usually also am doing heavy harass to buy time until I have actual storms ready. Just be aware that right around this time is common for a Muta tech switch from the Zerg opponent. I lost a game to Catz the other day like this trying to go for HT, with my army threatening in the middle of the map. His mutas finished, and I didn't have anything to protect my probes.
I liked your shakuras game against mutas, i dont see many players put cannons in the mineral line, you had 3 in your main and it instantly scared mutas away allowing you the time to kill his third and win. Would this not be an appropriate response to muta tech switch, that or just an archon or two in each line. obviously takes supply away from your army but archon make mutas look silly
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On October 20 2011 06:02 TechnoSchaman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 05:59 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 20 2011 05:57 TechnoSchaman wrote:
jesus this is strong. I only watched 2 replays, and have played it three times now usually winning as my third gets up with that push with 2-4 archons.
Just curious (if its in replay lemme know which) when templar archive gets dropped in regards to third base. Is it as you get third, or after initial push or during push or what. I havent needed storm as Ive won with the initial push each time by dropping at his third or main, zerg 1As everything in there, and i just FF into/ out of their base and clean up.
But just curious on that timing Varies from game to game. I get it the moment I can afford it without fear of losing due to the sunk costs (usually just after third base finishes I think). I usually also am doing heavy harass to buy time until I have actual storms ready. Just be aware that right around this time is common for a Muta tech switch from the Zerg opponent. I lost a game to Catz the other day like this trying to go for HT, with my army threatening in the middle of the map. His mutas finished, and I didn't have anything to protect my probes. I liked your shakuras game against mutas, i dont see many players put cannons in the mineral line, you had 3 in your main and it instantly scared mutas away allowing you the time to kill his third and win. Would this not be an appropriate response to muta tech switch, that or just an archon or two in each line. obviously takes supply away from your army but archon make mutas look silly
Archons are super expensive and can be magic boxed. I only use them for defense occasionally. Cannons + Blink is my favorite defense. Times when I do use some Archons for Probe defense is when I have a really vulnerable flank, maybe my army has to be on one side of the map leaving my expansion very vulnerable; if I think mutas will surely hit that spot I'll warp in a round of DT and make some Archons.
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is magic box as effective as it is against thors though? archons still do 35 damage per shot against muta, so magic box would help but thats still massive damage. but god damn man i love you. i the only pvz ive lost out of my last 5 was when i tried to 1 gate expo and he ling all in'd me and my forcefields were bad. I honestly cant think of a unit comp that hard counters this. you will get me into masters and i will love you forever xD
edit: on a side note, could this build be adjusted to work against terran with charge instead of blink first, then getting blink afterwards, but doing a 2 archon push with chargelots sentry immortal?
just wondering
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From what I'm hearing going HT too early can lead to trouble.
Has anyone had success doing HT instead of DT to get archons, and skipping dt tech entirely? Templar archives costs less gas and builds twice as fast, so if the focus is archons it seems like the better choice. I also just shudder at spending 250/250 on an archon instead of 100/300. For the cost of 4 dt archons you can get 3 HT archons, 2 stalkers, 4 zealots, and a probe...
Is there any experience showing zealot/sentry drops for harass and quick HT for archon push is safe and effective?
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On October 28 2011 02:31 quillian wrote:
From what I'm hearing going HT too early can lead to trouble.
Has anyone had success doing HT instead of DT to get archons, and skipping dt tech entirely? Templar archives costs less gas and builds twice as fast, so if the focus is archons it seems like the better choice. I also just shudder at spending 250/250 on an archon instead of 100/300. For the cost of 4 dt archons you can get 3 HT archons, 2 stalkers, 4 zealots, and a probe...
Is there any experience showing zealot/sentry drops for harass and quick HT for archon push is safe and effective?
More and more I have been using HT to make archons for your reason - although its 50gas more, I feel I get more bang for my buck
Especially when it comes to dealing with mutas, getting HT allows me to get storm and archons to hold them off. Also, I sometimes feel like DT harass is a little less effective these days simply cos I often see zerg just blindly put a spore down in each base. But thats ok, my harass is now warp prism drops thanks to Cecil and Noumena
I have found zealot/sentry drops devestasting so far as well. I drop 2zeals + 2 sentries, FF the drones instead, warp in a few more zealots, and murder drones and sometimes even snipe the lair because their army is on the other side of the map facing my main army
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ty for the build, ive been using this and a naniwa push recently in PvZ and PvZ is suddenly my best matchup (other than that pesky 6pool...seriously lol they can just keep pumping so many lings after it fails/breaks even) basically i use this on every map other than shakuras and even then i end up in a similar position midgame w/naniwa's opening (it was covered in a recent daily, its pretty much a 2immortal timing that kills Z 3rd followed by mass blink stalker except im throwing in archons w/that xD) immortal archon is soooo good PvZ til BL are out
the only thing i have problems with is a heavy roach hydra push, such as where he gets 12-20 hydras and the rest roaches to tank damage and just a-moves and wins
though im guessing i could theoretically just get storm faster vs that
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On October 29 2011 14:03 unit wrote:
ty for the build, ive been using this and a naniwa push recently in PvZ and PvZ is suddenly my best matchup (other than that pesky 6pool...seriously lol they can just keep pumping so many lings after it fails/breaks even) basically i use this on every map other than shakuras and even then i end up in a similar position midgame w/naniwa's opening (it was covered in a recent daily, its pretty much a 2immortal timing that kills Z 3rd followed by mass blink stalker except im throwing in archons w/that xD) immortal archon is soooo good PvZ til BL are out
the only thing i have problems with is a heavy roach hydra push, such as where he gets 12-20 hydras and the rest roaches to tank damage and just a-moves and wins
though im guessing i could theoretically just get storm faster vs that
Sounds like you need an earlier third if they're hitting you with that sort of unit comp with those numbers.
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Italy12246 Posts
I noticed you tend to warp in stalkers to harass with warp prisms, instead of zealots and/or dt's like other players (say, HerO). Is there a particular reason why you prefer stalkers?
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I've gotten another replay, had time to have a single ladder match today
http://drop.sc/58206
-Use of units other than Stalkers in prism for a good amount of time.
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Made a video about this last night, placed it in the OP! Hopefully someone can find it useful - there's also another replay of me playing in the video description.
-> link
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I've been trying this out after getting your coaching. It's been pretty good so far, but micronutrient the harass while not falling behind on macro is definitely tough.
I find that if I lose a few too many stalkers or dt, I'm critically short on gas. But have a mineral excess. What do you do in that case? Just warp in a million zealots with the 2 prisms and wait for gas?
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On November 16 2011 11:15 Necrophantasia wrote:
I've been trying this out after getting your coaching. It's been pretty good so far, but micronutrient the harass while not falling behind on macro is definitely tough.
I find that if I lose a few too many stalkers or dt, I'm critically short on gas. But have a mineral excess. What do you do in that case? Just warp in a million zealots with the 2 prisms and wait for gas?
You should be taking your third base at this time.
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I love this build, been doing it a lot and win or lose, it's always fun to play. Apparently not for my opponents, since the amount of BM I get has skyrocketed, but it's great for me :p
One issue I'm having though is dealing with Mutas. I realize that blink stalker/archon is sort of the best possible way to deal with mutas that Protoss have, but in addition to shutting down my warp prism harass, I can't get my fat Archons through the Zealot sized hole in my wall. So if I build Archons at my nat, I can't defend my main effectively. Of course if I build them in my main, they're stuck there unless I destroy a building.
I realize this is a fairly minor problem and I should probably just kill my gateway if I scout mutas, but was curious if anyone else had found a better way to deal with this. Keep in mind that I'm doing the 1 gate expand variation, so I really do need to wall in my main.
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On November 18 2011 07:00 TrickyGilligan wrote:
I love this build, been doing it a lot and win or lose, it's always fun to play. Apparently not for my opponents, since the amount of BM I get has skyrocketed, but it's great for me :p
One issue I'm having though is dealing with Mutas. I realize that blink stalker/archon is sort of the best possible way to deal with mutas that Protoss have, but in addition to shutting down my warp prism harass, I can't get my fat Archons through the Zealot sized hole in my wall. So if I build Archons at my nat, I can't defend my main effectively. Of course if I build them in my main, they're stuck there unless I destroy a building.
I realize this is a fairly minor problem and I should probably just kill my gateway if I scout mutas, but was curious if anyone else had found a better way to deal with this. Keep in mind that I'm doing the 1 gate expand variation, so I really do need to wall in my main.
You honestly shouldn't really be relying on archons to defend your bases vs mutas. Storm is a lot more effective generally speaking.
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If you scout no roach tech should you still build immortals since they're pretty terrible against ling/muta, ling/hydra and ling/infestor? Can't you build an extra gate to supplement your army since you're not making immortals? That way you can either make more sentries or stalkers or zealots or even have an extra archon to add in your push.
Seems to me like the immortal part is a 'just in case' but with good scouting with the obs & warp prism you should be able to see the possibility of a tech switch before it hits, so would you suggest that any competent scouting player to stop immortal production against no-roach compositions? It just feels like such a mineral and gas sink to be worth the 'potential' of a tech switch by the zerg.
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On November 18 2011 07:12 MonkSEA wrote:
If you scout no roach tech should you still build immortals since they're pretty terrible against ling/muta, ling/hydra and ling/infestor? Can't you build an extra gate to supplement your army since you're not making immortals? That way you can either make more sentries or stalkers or zealots or even have an extra archon to add in your push.
Seems to me like the immortal part is a 'just in case' but with good scouting with the obs & warp prism you should be able to see the possibility of a tech switch before it hits, so would you suggest that any competent scouting player to stop immortal production against no-roach compositions? It just feels like such a mineral and gas sink to be worth the 'potential' of a tech switch by the zerg.
Yeah if there are zero Roaches, you don't want more than 2 Immortals. Trade your other Immortals for Zealots/Stalkers for sure. Just don't get caught against a hard Roach switch with no Immortals at all.
You also don't want to defend against Mutas with Archons - way too expensive and hard to get them back out of your base. Just defend with Cannons/Stalkers.
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On November 18 2011 07:12 MonkSEA wrote:
If you scout no roach tech should you still build immortals since they're pretty terrible against ling/muta, ling/hydra and ling/infestor? Can't you build an extra gate to supplement your army since you're not making immortals? That way you can either make more sentries or stalkers or zealots or even have an extra archon to add in your push.
Seems to me like the immortal part is a 'just in case' but with good scouting with the obs & warp prism you should be able to see the possibility of a tech switch before it hits, so would you suggest that any competent scouting player to stop immortal production against no-roach compositions? It just feels like such a mineral and gas sink to be worth the 'potential' of a tech switch by the zerg.
I thought so as well, but when trying it out, I find the immortals are really good at breaking down expansions or pushing through spines. There's been a few instances where I hit ling/muta and trying to take out 3rd expo. I focus the immortals on the expo and have the rest deal with the ling/muta and it works well. I notice a lot of people try and take out the lings/mutas and often end up doing little actual damage since the expo is still up and you can't really run away. 2 immo will take out the expo during the time that the engagement is going on.
This is at least my experience. I'm sure there are more optimized things to do.
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How do you think opening would be effected if you opened with 1stargate (off of FFE or 1gate FE), would it be for better or worse--assuming you followed the build to the letter after getting perhaps 1-2 voids out?
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On November 20 2011 08:05 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
How do you think opening would be effected if you opened with 1stargate (off of FFE or 1gate FE), would it be for better or worse--assuming you followed the build to the letter after getting perhaps 1-2 voids out?
That's three different tech paths. Also, the warp prism + Voidray roles overlap and create redundancy. You'd have to cut either the robo or the twilight.
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On November 20 2011 10:12 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 08:05 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
How do you think opening would be effected if you opened with 1stargate (off of FFE or 1gate FE), would it be for better or worse--assuming you followed the build to the letter after getting perhaps 1-2 voids out? That's three different tech paths. Also, the warp prism + Voidray roles overlap and create redundancy. You'd have to cut either the robo or the twilight.
Yeah, even if you manage to squeeze in the stargate with a voidray and pheonix or two, you delay the timing push and even counteract the weakness you are trying to expose -> detection. The build would be completely different if you chose this path, you would end up going more zealot/sentry heavy to start to balance out the tech switch, your third is a little more risky because you are not expanding while attacking due to unit composition (you rely on the small harass to keep the enemy army at home) and you most likely have to fall back on double robo immortals instead of single. By that point it is not worth morphing the dts into archons unless you plan to prolong their death. You will be more focused on teching psionic storm incase of muta or hydra play. Does not mean that this build is terrible, rather much harder to pull off.
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On November 20 2011 13:06 DanceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 10:12 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 20 2011 08:05 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
How do you think opening would be effected if you opened with 1stargate (off of FFE or 1gate FE), would it be for better or worse--assuming you followed the build to the letter after getting perhaps 1-2 voids out? That's three different tech paths. Also, the warp prism + Voidray roles overlap and create redundancy. You'd have to cut either the robo or the twilight. Yeah, even if you manage to squeeze in the stargate with a voidray and pheonix or two, you delay the timing push and even counteract the weakness you are trying to expose -> detection. The build would be completely different if you chose this path, you would end up going more zealot/sentry heavy to start to balance out the tech switch, your third is a little more risky because you are not expanding while attacking due to unit composition (you rely on the small harass to keep the enemy army at home) and you most likely have to fall back on double robo immortals instead of single. By that point it is not worth morphing the dts into archons unless you plan to prolong their death. You will be more focused on teching psionic storm incase of muta or hydra play. Does not mean that this build is terrible, rather much harder to pull off.
Nah man, you don't need to be so nice about it. Going all three tech paths on 2 base is terrible unless you're doing some strange tech switching cheese, like piqliq or ppgbubbles.
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I love the zerg's unit tab in the screenshot....
9 mutas, an overseer and 3 queens. Seems like in that game the opponent had already lost.
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On November 20 2011 13:57 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 13:06 DanceSC wrote:On November 20 2011 10:12 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 20 2011 08:05 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
How do you think opening would be effected if you opened with 1stargate (off of FFE or 1gate FE), would it be for better or worse--assuming you followed the build to the letter after getting perhaps 1-2 voids out? That's three different tech paths. Also, the warp prism + Voidray roles overlap and create redundancy. You'd have to cut either the robo or the twilight. Yeah, even if you manage to squeeze in the stargate with a voidray and pheonix or two, you delay the timing push and even counteract the weakness you are trying to expose -> detection. The build would be completely different if you chose this path, you would end up going more zealot/sentry heavy to start to balance out the tech switch, your third is a little more risky because you are not expanding while attacking due to unit composition (you rely on the small harass to keep the enemy army at home) and you most likely have to fall back on double robo immortals instead of single. By that point it is not worth morphing the dts into archons unless you plan to prolong their death. You will be more focused on teching psionic storm incase of muta or hydra play. Does not mean that this build is terrible, rather much harder to pull off. Nah man, you don't need to be so nice about it. Going all three tech paths on 2 base is terrible unless you're doing some strange tech switching cheese, like piqliq or ppgbubbles.
lol it is very aggressive, but on 2 base yes very terrible. You need the third base and it is risky because your aggression needs to be effective hence why it is hard to pull off. I saw hero do a similar build with the zealot / sentry composition, used stargate to harass and put down 2 robotics for immortals against heavy roach composition. Only difference is he tech'd the templar archives instead of the dark shrine first, but that was a reaction to the hydralisks, the dts came into play later.
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GREAT guide, thanks, and as in the zerg's point o view also, how would you deal with mass hydralisk?
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On November 20 2011 15:03 Unsinkable wrote:
GREAT guide, thanks, and as in the zerg's point o view also, how would you deal with mass hydralisk?
Chargelot archon has worked for me really well, just be sure to not get caught by a hard roach switch.
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Yeah, Yeah and once again Yeah - doing this style feels just right and i love it man.. You saved my PvZ Thanks alot for this guide you are the man !
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a lot zergs are favoring the mutalisk ling base trade style of play.
how does your playstyle interact with this playstyle?
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On January 15 2012 21:01 Gamegene wrote:
a lot zergs are favoring the mutalisk ling base trade style of play.
how does your playstyle interact with this playstyle?
If you trade the Dark Shrine for a Templar Archives, then very well.
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hmmm what to do with this style vs zling baneling late 3rd? Just take 3rd and macro or is it possible to kill a zerg w/ baneling bombs?
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banelings are terrible vs immortals and archons, both are key units in this build. this is basically the hardcounter to any baneling strategy.#
Cool style anyways, have you experimented with a FFE opening, beeing able to chrono nonstop upgrades while going for some similar dt / archon / immortal timing?
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On February 19 2012 08:45 weikor wrote:
banelings are terrible vs immortals and archons, both are key units in this build. this is basically the hardcounter to any baneling strategy.#
Cool style anyways, have you experimented with a FFE opening, beeing able to chrono nonstop upgrades while going for some similar dt / archon / immortal timing?
Well.....When i'm executing the 2 archon push (with 7/8 gate instead of nexus) he doesn't even have a 3rd, just a ton of banelings in overlords....seems to me no matter how well i split i always die Just wondering about the correct response
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On February 19 2012 10:05 CodECleaR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 08:45 weikor wrote:
banelings are terrible vs immortals and archons, both are key units in this build. this is basically the hardcounter to any baneling strategy.#
Cool style anyways, have you experimented with a FFE opening, beeing able to chrono nonstop upgrades while going for some similar dt / archon / immortal timing? Well.....When i'm executing the 2 archon push (with 7/8 gate instead of nexus) he doesn't even have a 3rd, just a ton of banelings in overlords....seems to me no matter how well i split i always die Just wondering about the correct response
If there is no third base you don't have to commit to the push. Instead you can take the middle of the map and then expand. Then, wait to engage with hallu/more archons.
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Thanks, but I don't understand something :D
You posted this in january 2012, but on the site it says the video was uploaded 18 Oct 2011. where's the mistake?
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On February 28 2012 04:33 OutlaW- wrote:Thanks, but I don't understand something :D You posted this in january 2012, but on the site it says the video was uploaded 18 Oct 2011. where's the mistake?
I posted Oct 11 2011.
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I really think this is effective against stephano style roaches.
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On April 06 2012 06:36 TheRealFluid wrote:
I really think this is effective against stephano style roaches.
I've actually been doing a variation of this lately with a very fast third, since a lot of people have just suddenly decided that since Protoss is figuring out the roach spam, they're going to play super greedy and go straight to Infestor then to BL, while the toss is making Immortals to defend the roach spam (that never comes). The key is to not rely on the prisms too much, and be able to threaten the center of the map while threatening with prisms all at once. The moment you find a weak spot you hit it hard, the Zerg army shifts locations, then you hit the next weak spot. Rinse and repeat.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jjJjG.png)
