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Balgrog
United States1221 Posts
Lately I have been using between 3-4 warp prisms and doing heavy harras, and this seems like a fantastic strategy! One idea though OP, instead of going DT tech, would you have a stronger push if you went HT and storm, and just harassed with warp prisms and zealots, or do the 4 sentry drop into the mineral line? Just another idea to help with tons of lings and what not, and this way you can feedback the infestors instead of suiciding a group of stalkers, others thoughts? | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On October 14 2011 03:06 CecilSunkure wrote: You should watch the Shakuras replay, in regards to your spire point. Yeah I did watch the replays. You basically caught him in a tech switch to infestors. I'm not exactly sure what the zerg's reasoning was there to tech to infestors (I guess in response to seeing blink stalkers?), but for me at least as a protoss player seeing mutas on the field always makes me want to push the zerg since mutas aren't great in a straight up battle. I guess he thought he could distract you with his handful of mutas long enough. IMO he would've won by simply continuing to mass mutas and making a ton of crawlers and either engaging with a pure mutaling army at his crawlers or via a base race. Also in those replays the DTs just did not seem to have been very effective and most of the time you just ended up morphing them into archons. DT use is still good at denying expos and map control but nowadays zerg players get spores up in their bases blindly so their harassment potential seems limited in this matchup in the current metagame. HTs would have been a much more effective transition. You can still storm drop with HTs as well so it's not like HTs cannot harass. Also in regards to the prism you should consider doing the 4 sentry drop where you FF b/w their main and natural. You already are so stalker and sentry at that point in the game it is a natural transition. If you went robo first you can hit them early around 9 mins before their muta or infestor tech gets going, or if you went TC into robo you can hit them later with a stronger version with blink. | ||
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
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skatbone
United States1005 Posts
On October 15 2011 02:25 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: Hey with the 1gate FE, isn't it better to put your gates in your base so if Zerg goes for heavy roach aggression they can't snipe your infrastructure/un-power your gates? Yea, I have mixed feelings about where to put those gates. I shift back and forth between placing them in the main vs in the natural. | ||
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Shebuha
Canada1335 Posts
Immortal/blink/HT is so good vs Zerg, it's anti roach, ling, infestor and muta, so if your opponent didn't go very heavy T3 (broodlords) by the you have like 8 HTs and 8ish Immortals are up, he's kind of boned. I'll have to try this build as well, it looks really good! You know I'm always surprised to see how good Immortals vs Zerg. Like after 2 or 3 big battles I've lost 2-3 Immortals and all the rest of them have 10+ kills. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On October 15 2011 02:54 skatbone wrote: Yea, I have mixed feelings about where to put those gates. I shift back and forth between placing them in the main vs in the natural. On the low ground, otherwise you cannot take your Natural. If you have mixed feelings, then research into recent PvZ replays (including mine in the OP) and figure out how the Gateways on low ground help you take a faster Nexus. On October 15 2011 02:19 Skyro wrote: Yeah I did watch the replays. You basically caught him in a tech switch to infestors. I'm not exactly sure what the zerg's reasoning was there to tech to infestors (I guess in response to seeing blink stalkers?), but for me at least as a protoss player seeing mutas on the field always makes me want to push the zerg since mutas aren't great in a straight up battle. I guess he thought he could distract you with his handful of mutas long enough. IMO he would've won by simply continuing to mass mutas and making a ton of crawlers and either engaging with a pure mutaling army at his crawlers or via a base race. Also in those replays the DTs just did not seem to have been very effective and most of the time you just ended up morphing them into archons. DT use is still good at denying expos and map control but nowadays zerg players get spores up in their bases blindly so their harassment potential seems limited in this matchup in the current metagame. HTs would have been a much more effective transition. You can still storm drop with HTs as well so it's not like HTs cannot harass. Also in regards to the prism you should consider doing the 4 sentry drop where you FF b/w their main and natural. You already are so stalker and sentry at that point in the game it is a natural transition. If you went robo first you can hit them early around 9 mins before their muta or infestor tech gets going, or if you went TC into robo you can hit them later with a stronger version with blink. He switched to Infestors so that he wouldn't die to my army. If he just made more Muta/Ling he still wouldn't have been able to engage my army, due to not dealing any initial damage with the Mutas. Also, why would I engage into spines..? His best bet was to definitely try to defend, as it isn't smart to try to base race a player with Blink + Archons with Muta/Ling, when he already is heavily cannoned. As for Sentry drop, I just prefer having less risk in my Prism (vespene), and like the Sentries in my army. It's personal preference. As for DT tech not dealing a ton of damage, you don't need to deal a ton of damage. It's just a very good tech to have throughout the game. They are great in your army composition, and grant access to more vespene cheap Archons. They force down perpetual Overseers, and lots of Spores + harass defence. They can also kill buildings, which HT cannot. As for 2 base HT + storm, you won't have many HT to spare in the event you get into a battle. You also won't have enough energy for FB + Storm in the event that you come up against Ling/Infestor. It's also very hard to fight Muta/Ling, due to having very limited storm count. It's just not reliable to rely on killing off super mobile units with a couple spells. In the event you are using your already very limited storms in a drop, that's even less in the event of an engagement. I highly recommend HT on 3+ base, but not earlier than. On October 14 2011 14:12 Balgrog wrote: Just another idea to help with tons of lings and what not, and this way you can feedback the infestors instead of suiciding a group of stalkers, others thoughts? That's a pretty bad idea. You won't have enough feedback to defeat 2 base vs 2 base if they just get a lot of Infestors. It isn't suiciding Stalkers, most of the time they don't even all die. It's picking off Infestors with a lot of energy. | ||
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Homework
United States283 Posts
On October 14 2011 06:36 CecilSunkure wrote: Then once you eventually hit BL tech, the Toss is forced to also switch into some other tech route. Couldn't this style, once broodlords are out, proceed into the HUARGH-style mothership play? It seems like the logical progression for zerg, against this composition, is broodlords, which the mothership-style works quite well against. | ||
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Tal0n
United States175 Posts
 he actually just 2-base timing pushed me and (if i remmeber correctly) used high templar to morph archons. how can i exploit this style as zerg? | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On October 15 2011 04:29 Tal0n wrote: i played against one of you evil protoss before. WHAT DO I DO AGAINST THAT AS ZERG he actually just 2-base timing pushed me and (if i remmeber correctly) used high templar to morph archons. how can i exploit this style as zerg? If you lost to a 2 base push with this composition as zerg, you probably just didn't have enough units. Roach ling, Roach hydra, roach ling hydra, roach ling infestor should all easily beat this type of push. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
He switched to Infestors so that he wouldn't die to my army. If he just made more Muta/Ling he still wouldn't have been able to engage my army, due to not dealing any initial damage with the Mutas. Also, why would I engage into spines..? His best bet was to definitely try to defend, as it isn't smart to try to base race a player with Blink + Archons with Muta/Ling, when he already is heavily cannoned. Well if his reasoning to tech switch to infestors was to deal with your army it was pretty pointless since he lost a straight up battle anyway no? That's the point I was trying to make, that mutas bait a Protoss to push and that tech switching during this time period is a huge gamble. However if he channeled all his resources spent on infestors into more mutas and spines he could've taken out your cannons and probe lines (actually your 2nd base wasn't even cannoned IIRC) when you pushed out, and then depending on the situation he can either attempt a base race or just fly back and try to engage at his front now their your econ is shot. If he does destroy your econ you're pretty much forced to attack into his spines. Of course I'm not saying this is a guaranteed win for zerg as you could possibly still break his front, or you can turtle to HT and weaken his mutas and grab your 3rd and progress from there etc. etc., but I reckon this isn't a position that most protoss players would consider favorable. This is why personally I prefer to hit at a pre-muta timing with warp prisms if I went robo first, and if TC first then of course I would be in a more defensive stance. As for DT tech not dealing a ton of damage, you don't need to deal a ton of damage. It's just a very good tech to have throughout the game. They are great in your army composition, and grant access to more vespene cheap Archons. They force down perpetual Overseers, and lots of Spores + harass defence. They can also kill buildings, which HT cannot. As for 2 base HT + storm, you won't have many HT to spare in the event you get into a battle. You also won't have enough energy for FB + Storm in the event that you come up against Ling/Infestor. It's also very hard to fight Muta/Ling, due to having very limited storm count. It's just not reliable to rely on killing off super mobile units with a couple spells. In the event you are using your already very limited storms in a drop, that's even less in the event of an engagement. I highly recommend HT on 3+ base, but not earlier than. You know in retrospect I can see your point here. I tend to favor the heavy zealot opening out of a FFE, which affords me the gas to actually get HT on 2 base, but if you're going for a stalker/sentry heavy composition out of a gateway into expo you won't have the spare gas, and DTs also hedge your risk to mutas as well since you can delay mass expos from zerg while he is harassing with mutas, giving you option and time needed to turtle up and tech to HT and grab a third if you don't think you can push him. You know what would be cool though is if you get some replays and/or a guide out for the 1-gate expo since that seems to be your expo of choice. It's an opening I have been attempting to learn but I must be missing some of the ins-and-outs because I am getting wrecked by roachling all-ins or mass lings denying/delaying the expo. It seems to be a very nuanced opening that depends a lot on scouting that I think would be very well received. | ||
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memcpy
United States459 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On October 15 2011 04:54 Skyro wrote: Well if his reasoning to tech switch to infestors was to deal with your army it was pretty pointless since he lost a straight up battle anyway no? That's the point I was trying to make, that mutas bait a Protoss to push and that tech switching during this time period is a huge gamble. Well 2 base muta like that was the real gamble, not so much a tech switch. | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
The warp prism stalker harass is quite an epiphany,so amazing :p This is so relentless at punishing any mistake the zerg makes, if he misses the prims he loses drones but also exposes himself to a immortal/gateway push with infinite forcefields. Love it  | ||
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DgSensei
Greece20 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On October 17 2011 15:31 DgSensei wrote: What do you do with this style if the zerg goes for a 2 base infestor ling timing push? I don't know of a good "ling Infestor" timing push. You should be able to beat that with any good army and good macro. Archons are exceptionally good against Ling/Infestor. | ||
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DgSensei
Greece20 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On October 17 2011 15:44 CecilSunkure wrote: I don't know of a good "ling Infestor" timing push. You should be able to beat that with any good army and good macro. Archons are exceptionally good against Ling/Infestor. Ling infestor timings are quite common. They hit around 10:30 with 2 base lings and about 5-6 infestors. Off the top of my head, players like Destiny, DRG, and Monster have been known to do such attacks. I'm certain there's more, because I see it quite a lot in the GSL. They're really quite good too. I can see how your style would have trouble with it. Usually, you can't hold them off without either a collosi, storm done, cannons, or just plain lots of gateway units, especially zealots. Because this style invests so much on tech and has a lot of units placed in warp prisms, I can see how it would be hard to defend such an attack. However, on the flip side of the coin, the zerg has to be able to defend his base from the warp prism harass, so that may delay the timing. | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
Can I ask, how is this playstyle different to the recent guide Noumena posted on warp prism? I can see you have a lot more depth regarding late game composition compared to his but otherwise, the main difference I see is (1) He opts for FFE, you go 1GFE (2) uses early zealot pressure at 6:20-7min to scout (3) he almost avoids sentries altogether, you make lots of sentries and therefore ur mid/late game army is arguably stronger due to infinite FF Is that correct? It actually seems that you both have similar playstyles, but you are more sentry-focused but Noumena is not, and this is almost a result of choosing different opening builds (cos 1GFE requires you to get sentries, but FFE does not). Im a pretty low level player so my insight could be way off so would be good if someone more experienced can clarify | ||
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TutsiRebel
United States172 Posts
You try mixing in hallucination? I think your composition has more than enough sentry energy for forcefields; if you decided to forgo the DT harass, zerg usually wont get overseers (aside from those used for scouting) and a few hallucinated archons could really help out. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On October 18 2011 07:37 TutsiRebel wrote: looks cool, I'll definitely give it a try when i screw around on ladder as toss. You try mixing in hallucination? I think your composition has more than enough sentry energy for forcefields; if you decided to forgo the DT harass, zerg usually wont get overseers (aside from those used for scouting) and a few hallucinated archons could really help out. No reason not to On October 18 2011 07:15 bankai wrote: Once again a fantastic guide Cecil, thanks for the contribution! Can I ask, how is this playstyle different to the recent guide Noumena posted on warp prism? I can see you have a lot more depth regarding late game composition compared to his but otherwise, the main difference I see is (1) He opts for FFE, you go 1GFE (2) uses early zealot pressure at 6:20-7min to scout (3) he almost avoids sentries altogether, you make lots of sentries and therefore ur mid/late game army is arguably stronger due to infinite FF Is that correct? It actually seems that you both have similar playstyles, but you are more sentry-focused but Noumena is not, and this is almost a result of choosing different opening builds (cos 1GFE requires you to get sentries, but FFE does not). Im a pretty low level player so my insight could be way off so would be good if someone more experienced can clarify I don't know, I didn't read that thread. | ||
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