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On October 04 2011 05:52 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 05:39 VTPerfect wrote:
PredY I don't think your TvP woes are a result of the current state of TvP in Sc2. Firstly you bring up alot of tank nostalgia from sc1. Sc2 is a different game and terran has new units that are good and older ones that aren't so good.
Theres no reason to spend lots of heartache and pain trying to make macro mech work when mmg+v is so successful. If your TvP winrate isn't high its because your missing essential skillsets to be successful in the MU and should be focusing on attaining those skills. Heres a list of the skills i'm talking about.
1. Stutter step technique
2. Unit Cascading - I'm not sure what the correct term is for this technique but understanding that Colossi splash in horizontal lines you can heavily reduce Colossus AoE by moving units forward and backward. This is why colossus are devastating at Master Level play but terrible at Pro level.
3. Ghost Control - EMP outranges everything, you mention if they have Psi Storm and you don't have Ghosts you lose. This is true but at the same time Ghosts prevent gaurdian shields and forcefields and do insane DPS to every Protoss unit, so why you would not tech up to ghosts in every TvP doesn't make a whole lot of sense. As an added bonus when you have enough ghosts you disable one of the most powerful protoss t3 units the Archon by triple emping and then 1 shotting them.
Learning new skillsets is not impossible, Wc3 players had to learn how to control income and production efficiently as well as not to pay too much attention to unit control when more important things need to happen, as well as adapt from the 1-2 cookie cutter builds per MU skill always wins to 12+ openings 4+ strats in every MU some builds free win other builds. I understand where your coming from but what of BW Protoss players decided, I don't like sentries i'm Protoss and my Zealots and Stalkers are powerful like in Sc1 so i'm going to mass Zealot/Stalker vs Roach/Ling and Marine/Marauder and be upset because these units are trash in Sc2 and I lose alot. This is the most condescending post I have seen in awhile. You seem to have completely missed the message of this thread or decided it was more about winrates than actual game. He and many others just want to be able to explore the other 50% of Terran instead of being limited to only bio in a matchup. If you want to tell him to shut up just go ahead and do it, don't slyly insult the man.
I think YOU missed the message. VTPerfect just offered a ton of PRO level insight on how he can play better.
I sure would love it if he woudl elaborate on some tips to keep in mind for protoss playing against terran.
IMHO, every terran unit is extermeely useful wheras protoss is stuck to using T1+col or T1+temp/archon
As he mentioned temp/archon can get annihilated by EMP (and I dont want to coinflip), so that just leaves me with colosus.
Protoss is the victim here
Also.. tanks and thors are wicked powerful vs toss. I dont understand the problem
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On October 04 2011 05:52 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 05:39 VTPerfect wrote:
PredY I don't think your TvP woes are a result of the current state of TvP in Sc2. Firstly you bring up alot of tank nostalgia from sc1. Sc2 is a different game and terran has new units that are good and older ones that aren't so good.
Theres no reason to spend lots of heartache and pain trying to make macro mech work when mmg+v is so successful. If your TvP winrate isn't high its because your missing essential skillsets to be successful in the MU and should be focusing on attaining those skills. Heres a list of the skills i'm talking about.
1. Stutter step technique
2. Unit Cascading - I'm not sure what the correct term is for this technique but understanding that Colossi splash in horizontal lines you can heavily reduce Colossus AoE by moving units forward and backward. This is why colossus are devastating at Master Level play but terrible at Pro level.
3. Ghost Control - EMP outranges everything, you mention if they have Psi Storm and you don't have Ghosts you lose. This is true but at the same time Ghosts prevent gaurdian shields and forcefields and do insane DPS to every Protoss unit, so why you would not tech up to ghosts in every TvP doesn't make a whole lot of sense. As an added bonus when you have enough ghosts you disable one of the most powerful protoss t3 units the Archon by triple emping and then 1 shotting them.
Learning new skillsets is not impossible, Wc3 players had to learn how to control income and production efficiently as well as not to pay too much attention to unit control when more important things need to happen, as well as adapt from the 1-2 cookie cutter builds per MU skill always wins to 12+ openings 4+ strats in every MU some builds free win other builds. I understand where your coming from but what of BW Protoss players decided, I don't like sentries i'm Protoss and my Zealots and Stalkers are powerful like in Sc1 so i'm going to mass Zealot/Stalker vs Roach/Ling and Marine/Marauder and be upset because these units are trash in Sc2 and I lose alot. This is the most condescending post I have seen in awhile. You seem to have completely missed the message of this thread or decided it was more about winrates than actual game. He and many others just want to be able to explore the other 50% of Terran instead of being limited to only bio in a matchup. If you want to tell him to shut up just go ahead and do it, don't slyly insult the man.
I don't think his intention was to be condescending.. although it may come across that way.
It's good that T's want to be able to do different styles in TvP, I think there is just potential for alot of flaming from P players, who are currently struggling to find one style to play well in PvT.
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On October 04 2011 05:58 Roxy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 05:52 Numy wrote:On October 04 2011 05:39 VTPerfect wrote:
PredY I don't think your TvP woes are a result of the current state of TvP in Sc2. Firstly you bring up alot of tank nostalgia from sc1. Sc2 is a different game and terran has new units that are good and older ones that aren't so good.
Theres no reason to spend lots of heartache and pain trying to make macro mech work when mmg+v is so successful. If your TvP winrate isn't high its because your missing essential skillsets to be successful in the MU and should be focusing on attaining those skills. Heres a list of the skills i'm talking about.
1. Stutter step technique
2. Unit Cascading - I'm not sure what the correct term is for this technique but understanding that Colossi splash in horizontal lines you can heavily reduce Colossus AoE by moving units forward and backward. This is why colossus are devastating at Master Level play but terrible at Pro level.
3. Ghost Control - EMP outranges everything, you mention if they have Psi Storm and you don't have Ghosts you lose. This is true but at the same time Ghosts prevent gaurdian shields and forcefields and do insane DPS to every Protoss unit, so why you would not tech up to ghosts in every TvP doesn't make a whole lot of sense. As an added bonus when you have enough ghosts you disable one of the most powerful protoss t3 units the Archon by triple emping and then 1 shotting them.
Learning new skillsets is not impossible, Wc3 players had to learn how to control income and production efficiently as well as not to pay too much attention to unit control when more important things need to happen, as well as adapt from the 1-2 cookie cutter builds per MU skill always wins to 12+ openings 4+ strats in every MU some builds free win other builds. I understand where your coming from but what of BW Protoss players decided, I don't like sentries i'm Protoss and my Zealots and Stalkers are powerful like in Sc1 so i'm going to mass Zealot/Stalker vs Roach/Ling and Marine/Marauder and be upset because these units are trash in Sc2 and I lose alot. This is the most condescending post I have seen in awhile. You seem to have completely missed the message of this thread or decided it was more about winrates than actual game. He and many others just want to be able to explore the other 50% of Terran instead of being limited to only bio in a matchup. If you want to tell him to shut up just go ahead and do it, don't slyly insult the man. I think YOU missed the message. VTPerfect just offered a ton of PRO level insight on how he can play better. I sure would love it if he woudl elaborate on some tips to keep in mind for protoss playing against terran. IMHO, every terran unit is extermeely useful wheras protoss is stuck to using T1+col or T1+temp/archon As he mentioned temp/archon can get annihilated by EMP (and I dont want to coinflip), so that just leaves me with colosus. Protoss is the victim here Also.. tanks and thors are wicked powerful vs toss. I dont understand the problem
The whole point of this thread isn't to discuss how to TvP better, guys know to go bio and do xyz better. The whole point of this thread was the idea of bringing mech units back into the matchup and if it's possible without blizzard changing the game. Why would you talk about winrates and Bio? Bio works, no one is doubting that fact
So now tanks and thors and wicked powerful but the whole discussion in this thread is how Mech doesn't hold up in a macro game? I guess the discussion is void all along then.
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This pretty well sums up why I will never switch races from zerg to terran. I just...hate the marauder and everything it represents. BW tvp was far more awesome. I think it's also the reason why players like idra, artosis and drg switched to zerg. Terran just doesn't feel like terran, at least in tvp.
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Cheer up guys! SC2 is still an awesome game! 
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On October 04 2011 05:08 PredY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 03:49 mr_chapy wrote:
ok..i have read about 10 pages in this thread and i havent come across a single objective solution to the ´´problem´´ being discussed... so , what exactly is the point of this thread ? well there've been some ideas, mostly not very good ones, besides one that cought my eye, and that is adding damage to massive for tanks, which would affect collosi and archons. it would also affect thors (not THAT big of a deal althought thors are useful for breaking siege lines) and ultras (well not sure how that would turn out) but the most common attitude is to wait either for HoTS and new units being added in, or just wait for the metagame to shift (would have to be accompanied by a balance patch im sure, otherwise i don't see anything right now P can do to force T shift away from MMMVG). it's been over a year since the release (not counting the beta) and other matchups have evolved SO much besides tvp and pvp (tvp the only big change there was was P getting HTs and T respoing with ghosts). that what makes me think it's gonna take a looong time before that happens (a shift) tho (HoTS the earliest). hope im wrong tho! (a thing i think is a bit funny i noticed in this thread. ppl with low counts usually don't agree with me and like bio a lot - and i don't take that away from them!, while ppl with high post count tend to agree with me (at least on the most parts), i assume those are former BW players so im glad im not alone on this one 
As someone with a low post count, I must object! I can understand and respect the point you and others are trying to make - that TvP (and any other MU for that matter) benefits in terms of innovative and exciting play when presented with more variety in both viable strategy and army composition. However, I don't believe that attempting to compare SC2 to BW is either fair or positive for the SC2 scene. SC2 is a vastly different game - indeed, designed and intended to be different. Aside from the basics (storyline, unit names, basic gameplay, etc.) Blizzard have attempted to create an RTS that, while generating nice feelings of nostalgia in those of us who played BW, will bring in a whole new group of fans - both players and esports watchers. Inevitably and sadly, BW will fall by the wayside - technology will overtake the game. How many kids and young adults could you interest in BW today? Not many, I reckon. But I'm getting off topic here - the point I'm trying to make is surely all of us can agree that to appeal to a modern esports fan and casual gamer, more action is better; drops, and storms, and EMPs, and stim - these game dynamics increase the tempo and viewable nature of a match. As professional players, surely you would support aspects of the game that attract more viewers and ultimately increase the marketability of esports. Now of course, that's not to say that the subtle positioning and palpable tension of a good mech TvT is not exciting. Of course it is! But not all MUs should be like that. There should be variety. Also, I'm going to reiterate what I mentioned before - be patient, and have faith that either players will cause a shift in the metagame, or Blizzard (as they inevitably do) will continue to refine gameplay. The (mostly) knee-jerk reactions in this thread, and the way the debate has devolved into (in some ways) a balance discussion, makes me sad for the SC2 community.
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United States7483 Posts
On October 04 2011 05:08 PredY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 03:49 mr_chapy wrote:
ok..i have read about 10 pages in this thread and i havent come across a single objective solution to the ´´problem´´ being discussed... so , what exactly is the point of this thread ? well there've been some ideas, mostly not very good ones, besides one that cought my eye, and that is adding damage to massive for tanks, which would affect collosi and archons. it would also affect thors (not THAT big of a deal althought thors are useful for breaking siege lines) and ultras (well not sure how that would turn out) but the most common attitude is to wait either for HoTS and new units being added in, or just wait for the metagame to shift (would have to be accompanied by a balance patch im sure, otherwise i don't see anything right now P can do to force T shift away from MMMVG). it's been over a year since the release (not counting the beta) and other matchups have evolved SO much besides tvp and pvp (tvp the only big change there was was P getting HTs and T respoing with ghosts). that what makes me think it's gonna take a looong time before that happens (a shift) tho (HoTS the earliest). hope im wrong tho! (a thing i think is a bit funny i noticed in this thread. ppl with low counts usually don't agree with me and like bio a lot - and i don't take that away from them!, while ppl with high post count tend to agree with me (at least on the most parts), i assume those are former BW players so im glad im not alone on this one
Honestly I think we just need to wait and see if they add more units/upgrades to the Protoss for HotS. I think the main issue is that gateway unit DPS is just too low as a result of warp gates, so bio remains very effective against Protoss. Mech is a much more powerful ball that sacrifices mobility for strength, but if your weaker more mobile army has the required muscle, why would you sacrifice that mobility? Protoss has no strategy or style that actually beats bio easily (or even has a better than 50-50 chance against bio), so bio remains the #1 build style. Protoss needs to come up with a way to really crush bio before mech becomes a mainstay, and right now, ghosts just beat HT's too easily and colossi go down too easily to vikings and proper bio control.
A nerf to ghosts might weaken bio enough against HT play that mech becomes a good option. An alternative option that might make mech viable would be to give terran an upgrade of some kind to control space, like an upgrade that makes auto-turrets from the raven burrow or something abnormal like that.
I do think that mech can be extremely powerful if the terran builds lots of structures properly and controls things right, but it's very very hard to do and there's no reason to experiment with it and learn it right now. Planetary Fortresses in the right place, for example, with building armor and hi-sec auto-tracking with turrets can control space like nobody's business.
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On October 04 2011 02:55 eleaf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 19:42 Deezl wrote:I'm entirely confused about why this thread is spotlighted for game analysis. The OP's post has exactly one source, which is Dustin Browder's interview where he talks about the design of the game and how it is balanced and so on and so forth. Its a good insight, that the PvT and PvZ matchups were balanced around the power of Colossus and all matchups suffered as a result. But I don't believe that new ground was covered here that deserved a spotlight. I'll go into detail on the OP, and then go on a huge rant on to the replies that have followed and as to why you should reconsider hitting the post button sometimes if you're not that great of a player. It will be glorious. PredY - Summarizing PredY greatly dislikes the (lack of) unit diversity that is present in TvP, because he likes Tanks for their strategic play and hates Marauders because playing them is a bit like bashing your head against the wall (bashing your army into the Toss's base). The standard composition, MMM + Ghosts or Vikings, he feels, is forced when playing vs. P because its the best composition possible, even in endgame situations, because charge Zealots hard counter tanks and are available at all times, while a well-controlled Marauder-Ghost-Medivac-whatever ball can beat Charge Zeals extremely cost-effectively, and do bonus damage against everything else that P has. So MMM with subtle variations is VERY strong vs. P, because it can handle every composition thrown at it. Checklist? Zealot - useless without excellent FFs or charge. Marauder-Ghost Stalker - only cost-effective vs vikings in the air. Marauder-anything Sentry - Does no damage and is countered by EMP, but early and seeing a lot of use makes it a good unit. Immortal - Deals bonus damage to Marauders! But gets bonus damage dealt to it by Marauders... countered by marines, doubly so because each Immortal made is not a colossus. Also countered by Ghosts. Phoenix/Void Ray/Carrier - Vikings, Marines, and Terran may choose to add Thors... overall just good for harassment. High Templar - Terran adds Ghosts. You get to play the Ghost vs. HT mini-game to see if you can land storms or not. Too many ghosts and you need Colossus. If anyone makes a major mistake the game ends.Colossus - Terran adds Vikings, both players take more bases and add Ghosts and HTs or Pheonix and continue to upgrade their ground army.Therefore you can take on anything with with Bio vs. Protoss. There's no rock paper scissors but for the openings, and Bio FORCES High Templar or Colossus (and is still effective vs it). Also right now, P has no really valid timings against T that don't involve tier 3 tech, because they all got nerfed, so P can no longer do any kind of contain to force medivacs or tanks to bust. There are some good arguments against this; Mech can hit pre-chargelot timings, 1/1/1 into contain, Goody argument, but basically what Predy wants is for positional, traditional tank-based PvT from broodwar. But that's just what Predy wants. At least 66% of the Starcraft II population doesn't care (P and Z players). And lot of T players like playing Bio. So why spotlight this thread? On October 01 2011 05:49 PredY wrote:
I talked about TvZ and TvT. Do you know what those matchups have in common? Tanks. Tanks made BW so awesome. Tanks make TvZ and TvT in SC2 very fun to play/watch. You can control ground, abuse the terrain, siege. They take a lot of skill to play with but the reward is high, but not in TvP. It's quite sad but almost every protoss unit counters them. Do you remember when tanks did 60 damage? Good times. They were actually quite useful back then. Right now, i wanna cry every time i have 20 of them slaughtered in 10 seconds. Wait, what? Tanks are what make the game good and tactical? You want to go mech vs. P ... just because its more fun? Then do it. Make it fun. Find ways to keep them tanks alive.
So what is the reason TvP is all bio? Marauders and warpgates. It's unfortunate that TvP got screwed because tanks were "too strong" in TvZ and were nerfed. Marauders are much more cost effective vs protoss. Hell i hate them, marauders. Such a boring unit. Even more than collosus. You make marine marauder then switch to marine marauder and in late game transition into marine marauder, errrr wait a minute...there's just no option like in other matchups. Warpgates is in my oppinion the worst game mechanic they could put into the game, but that has been discussed to death. I really DO HOPE they will change it in HoTS, but i don't expect so.
If you take away my warpgates you have to give me Blink Dragoons. Try to get tanks rolling then, bud! I'm sorry you got caught between my army and my base but you KNOW that I can do that and you STILL get bodied by it then you need to re-evaluate your strategy. Another issue i have with TvP is there's minimum micro in fights, all you do is make concave before the fight them stim and run in. Cast some emps. Then you watch if you have enough or not. Theres no micro against banelings or infestors like in TvZ. Micro will never save your ass like in TvZ. Good position will never save your ass like in TvT, because you have no tanks, and warpgates are pretty good eh! Nothings angers me more than cutting off protoss expo from his main army and have 20 zealots warped in to my back, same with drops. While TvZ and ZvZ are more micro intensive, TvP is not short on Micro by any stretch, and you can always improve your spreading, stutter stepping and multitasking with drops. Over-microing can be bad, which I'm fine with. If you want more "skill" units to be added to HoTS, that's fine and I'm all for it, but the micro in TvP is present and still developing.
How about you having wrong unit composition? He has collosus and you have no vikings? You lose. He has storms and you have no EMPs? You lose. Remember when in BW you had no tanks but you could still kill lurkers with godly micro? Or when you have too many vultures against a lot of dragoons but not enough tanks, you would go in and surround with mines and then 10 goons turned to blue goo? I want THAT!
What kind of paragraph is this? Did you think about using a scan? This isn't even true because you can hit marauder-medivac timings before 2 colossus or Templar have storm and do massive damage while getting the right tech online, or drop to delay pushes to get your tech online, or just go raw marauder and split the army with drops and try to snipe them. In order to make Vikings you have to SWAP A BUILDING. Ghost academy is a tier 1.5 building that costs 100gas and builds fairly quick. And you should have EMPs anyway. I'm sorry you can't counter my tier 3 AoE 150-200 gas units with just marines and marauders. I'm sorry Protoss doesn't have shots that you can dodge 100% of the time if your micro is amazing. So tl;dr, Predy's post reads much more like a "Please bring back tanks to TvP" rant than a history, a balance discussion or anything else. I'm all for new strategies that raise the skill cap and input new units and builds into the scene, I think everyone is. But that doesn't make posts on the subject spotlight worthy. His replies, however, are quite good (about how Marauders decrease the skill cap, etc). But I think what he'll find is that we're not quite as deep into Starcraft II as he thinks we are. I'm sorry that in your such a long post, u totally missed the idea OP trying to make. Coz positioning is indeed a joke for TvP right now, terran are forced to go Bio ball and use mobility to counter the mobility of protoss. Which is kind of sad that if both T and P dont make mistake, you will guarantee to see a 200 bioball v.s. 200 deathball. This lacks the basic fun of strategy game of map controlling, positioning, etc... Why TvZ is entertaining to watch now is because in late game on large map, you can see Terran trying to control several key position and Zerg use mobility to force Terran make holes in their defense line and the game is so much fun. But this doesnt happen in TvP right now coz u need 200 army to hold one spot otherwise, some random strategical positioning army are just free meal for the protoss. You can claim that current TvP ball v.s. ball is fun to watch like some micro heavily WarCraft 3 games. But I agree with OP and prefer to see BW style strategy game.
The reason that its ball vs. ball is because there is no point to splitting your army. Blizzard is attempting to fix that with the warp prism patch, making it worthwhile for T to not just depot-wall his base and leave a bunker. And that's not even all that's going on or all that's possible. Players like Fenix have been using large drops and banshees to split the P army... and its very effective to push that way. On the other side of the coin, Blink Stalker mobility plays are becoming MUCH stronger, as demonstrated by Huk doing the most vs. NaDa last GSL. I'm sorry that Terran right now has the advantage and only needs to make creative plays to win if they get behind, but from the Protoss perspective, where you engage, how you engage and how both players micro the fight is incredibly important, and harassment and tactical play is getting better by the day.
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the problem is that you see it to much from the way of sc1.
this is a whole new game and the only persons i see talking about thit sproblems are old sc1 gamers.
accept that this is no sc1.1, its like playing c&c and then sc2 its a completely new game with new units new mechanic and you ahve to play it the way it is
and i prefer it more then i did sc1 and i played sc1 for over 10 years as well !
p whines about z and t to strong
t and z whines about p to easy
as long every race is whining, the game is nice and balanced (as we atm see terrans whine their race is to STRONG (polt mma ...) you see its start to be unbalanced) ^^
but dont give the mechanics the fault
its this game its like it works, no one want no warpgates and old sc1 units back expect some old sc1 gamers who cant life the new way sc2 is
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No, SC2 isn't a "completely new game." At its core, SC2 is still an isometric, old school, economy based RTS that is heavily influenced by BW.
The biggest differences between BW and SC2 are related to graphics, AI and UI. There's very little in SC2 that, from a gameplay and unit design point of view, couldn't have been done in BW. So keeping all that in mind, it's perfectly fair to say that BW tvp played out in a much more interesting way than the blob vs blod, zero positional gameplay of SC2.
Basically, people who think that SC2 is hugely different from BW are fooling themselves.
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On October 04 2011 08:02 Quotidian wrote:
No, SC2 isn't a "completely new game." At its core, SC2 is still an isometric, old school, economy based RTS that is heavily influenced by BW.
The biggest differences between BW and SC2 are related to graphics, AI and UI. There's very little in SC2 that, from a gameplay and unit design point of view, couldn't have been done in BW. So keeping all that in mind, it's perfectly fair to say that BW tvp played out in a much more interesting way than the blob vs blod, zero positional gameplay of SC2.
Basically, people who think that SC2 is hugely different from BW are fooling themselves.
I agree with this, there is a reason this game is a sequel to Brood War and not a new franchise.
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On October 04 2011 05:07 Thrombozyt wrote:
Actually there need only two changes to make mech a viable choice IMHO:
1) Tank dmg is changed from 35 (+15 vs armor) to 50 (-15 vs light). Shields take full dmg from tank shots (like in BW).
2) Remove 'Strike cannon' and give Thors ablative plating as an upgrade, that reduces splash dmg by a significant amount (say 70%). Give hellions a similar upgrade.
Optional:
Revamp the thor anti-air. No more splash, but straight up dmg.
I actually like this very much. Thors in TvZ can easily be replaced with Ravens HSM and PDD. Not only will it be more entertaining because their is the exciting factor of a HSM rather then oh he has thors now I can;t do crap with mutas. Yeah it will be harder, but I'm cool with that.
To bad it will never happen.
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On October 04 2011 05:58 Roxy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 05:52 Numy wrote:On October 04 2011 05:39 VTPerfect wrote:
PredY I don't think your TvP woes are a result of the current state of TvP in Sc2. Firstly you bring up alot of tank nostalgia from sc1. Sc2 is a different game and terran has new units that are good and older ones that aren't so good.
Theres no reason to spend lots of heartache and pain trying to make macro mech work when mmg+v is so successful. If your TvP winrate isn't high its because your missing essential skillsets to be successful in the MU and should be focusing on attaining those skills. Heres a list of the skills i'm talking about.
1. Stutter step technique
2. Unit Cascading - I'm not sure what the correct term is for this technique but understanding that Colossi splash in horizontal lines you can heavily reduce Colossus AoE by moving units forward and backward. This is why colossus are devastating at Master Level play but terrible at Pro level.
3. Ghost Control - EMP outranges everything, you mention if they have Psi Storm and you don't have Ghosts you lose. This is true but at the same time Ghosts prevent gaurdian shields and forcefields and do insane DPS to every Protoss unit, so why you would not tech up to ghosts in every TvP doesn't make a whole lot of sense. As an added bonus when you have enough ghosts you disable one of the most powerful protoss t3 units the Archon by triple emping and then 1 shotting them.
Learning new skillsets is not impossible, Wc3 players had to learn how to control income and production efficiently as well as not to pay too much attention to unit control when more important things need to happen, as well as adapt from the 1-2 cookie cutter builds per MU skill always wins to 12+ openings 4+ strats in every MU some builds free win other builds. I understand where your coming from but what of BW Protoss players decided, I don't like sentries i'm Protoss and my Zealots and Stalkers are powerful like in Sc1 so i'm going to mass Zealot/Stalker vs Roach/Ling and Marine/Marauder and be upset because these units are trash in Sc2 and I lose alot. This is the most condescending post I have seen in awhile. You seem to have completely missed the message of this thread or decided it was more about winrates than actual game. He and many others just want to be able to explore the other 50% of Terran instead of being limited to only bio in a matchup. If you want to tell him to shut up just go ahead and do it, don't slyly insult the man. I think YOU missed the message. VTPerfect just offered a ton of PRO level insight on how he can play better. I sure would love it if he woudl elaborate on some tips to keep in mind for protoss playing against terran. IMHO, every terran unit is extermeely useful wheras protoss is stuck to using T1+col or T1+temp/archon As he mentioned temp/archon can get annihilated by EMP (and I dont want to coinflip), so that just leaves me with colosus. Protoss is the victim here Also.. tanks and thors are wicked powerful vs toss. I dont understand the problem
Mech is only good TvP if Protoss doesn't know how to respond properly, but there's so many options that almost anything works like fast third + fourth mass gateway units (what Adelscott did a while back), 2 robo 1 immortal + 1 collo (Kiwikaki), fast carriers (like Hasuobs), fast blink stalkers and collosus and abuse cliffs (again like Hasuobs), and there's a bunch of other ways.
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The thread was nice. Until this:
"i'd like to mention that i'm not gonna talk about balance. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the state of Terran, especially TvP matchup game-design and gameplay wise."
Ok. Nice.
Then i read this:
"How about you having wrong unit composition? He has collosus and you have no vikings? You lose. He has storms and you have no EMPs? You lose."
That is a balance whine. I can count a lot of T compositions that rape any Z or P army without the propper composition. But i'm not gonna fall on that.
Fix that disguised balance whine please, then it will be the excelent thread that is suposed to be.
On the topic, Sc2 compared to Bw, has tons of design flaws. Looks like they wanted to make a diferent game from bw, but then they started to patch it to make it like a 2.0 bw, but of curse is late, the design flaws are there. PvT is as you say, a totally flawed match up. Just look all the korean PvT's, are by far the most boring games to watch, you know what is comming almost every single game.
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Ecuador33 Posts
I believe that when designing a game there has to be a priority order list, which for me would come as follows: 1-balance 2-design 3-stilystic choices. If balance is not "fixed" any stylistic solution we may come on to the state of TvP will be irrelevant. (There would still be almost no way protoss could beat a very good microed MMMVG army, hence pros would still go for that, even if mech somehow magically becomes somehow viable)
This thread states that it’s about design and not balance, but that’s impossible. You have to address balance when you are changing (at least in theory) the way the game plays.
I feel like all this discussion will circle itself and archive nothing when even the hardcore balance issues have not been solved by blizzard(10 terrans 1 protoss in code S QQ )
We cannot certainly hope for them to make the game more enjoyable before they fix the most important issues ahead of themselves. And even then we would most likely have to wait sometime to appreciate how the metagame influx happens.
All in all, let’s all hope HotS solves most balance issues, and if LotV solves most stylistic issues, I will be a happy gamer... I would probably never stop playing starcraft if that were the case =)
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On October 04 2011 09:40 mr_chapy wrote:
I believe that when designing a game there has to be a priority order list, which for me would come as follows: 1-balance 2-design 3-stilystic choices. If balance is not "fixed" any stylistic solution we may come on to the state of TvP will be irrelevant. (There would still be almost no way protoss could beat a very good microed MMMVG army, hence pros would still go for that, even if mech somehow magically becomes somehow viable)
This thread states that it’s about design and not balance, but that’s impossible. You have to address balance when you are changing (at least in theory) the way the game plays.
I feel like all this discussion will circle itself and archive nothing when even the hardcore balance issues have not been solved by blizzard(10 terrans 1 protoss in code S QQ )
We cannot certainly hope for them to make the game more enjoyable before they fix the most important issues ahead of themselves. And even then we would most likely have to wait sometime to appreciate how the metagame influx happens.
All in all, let’s all hope HotS solves most balance issues, and if LotV solves most stylistic issues, I will be a happy gamer... I would probably never stop playing starcraft if that were the case =)
Heres the thing. If there is a fundamental design problem, then it wont matter how much you balance the game, there is always going to be a problem. Isn't this something that should be adressed first? After all, if you balance the game perfectly, and then decide to do some design changes, you will need to rebalance it anyways.
Blizzard could always just buff a random toss unit, and I'm sure they will. But that does not solve the fundamental underlying issue.
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Ecuador33 Posts
On October 04 2011 10:11 Excludos wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 04 2011 09:40 mr_chapy wrote:
I believe that when designing a game there has to be a priority order list, which for me would come as follows: 1-balance 2-design 3-stilystic choices. If balance is not "fixed" any stylistic solution we may come on to the state of TvP will be irrelevant. (There would still be almost no way protoss could beat a very good microed MMMVG army, hence pros would still go for that, even if mech somehow magically becomes somehow viable)
This thread states that it’s about design and not balance, but that’s impossible. You have to address balance when you are changing (at least in theory) the way the game plays.
I feel like all this discussion will circle itself and archive nothing when even the hardcore balance issues have not been solved by blizzard(10 terrans 1 protoss in code S QQ )
We cannot certainly hope for them to make the game more enjoyable before they fix the most important issues ahead of themselves. And even then we would most likely have to wait sometime to appreciate how the metagame influx happens.
All in all, let’s all hope HotS solves most balance issues, and if LotV solves most stylistic issues, I will be a happy gamer... I would probably never stop playing starcraft if that were the case =)
Heres the thing. If there is a fundamental design problem, then it wont matter how much you balance the game, there is always going to be a problem. Isn't this something that should be adressed first? After all, if you balance the game perfectly, and then decide to do some design changes, you will need to rebalance it anyways. Blizzard could always just buff a random toss unit, and I'm sure they will. But that does not solve the fundamental underlying issue.
i think yes and no
yes there will be always problems if you balance the game but take design away, but its not as huge a problem. It would be way easier rebalancing when changing game design if there is balance from the start, for example if something goes wrong you can always revert. But balancing win % and design flaws at the same time involves allot of running in circles, trial and error, wasting time and basically getting lucky with the changes you make. Thats why broodwar took so long balance itself.
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On October 04 2011 08:02 Quotidian wrote:
No, SC2 isn't a "completely new game." At its core, SC2 is still an isometric, old school, economy based RTS that is heavily influenced by BW.
The biggest differences between BW and SC2 are related to graphics, AI and UI. There's very little in SC2 that, from a gameplay and unit design point of view, couldn't have been done in BW. So keeping all that in mind, it's perfectly fair to say that BW tvp played out in a much more interesting way than the blob vs blod, zero positional gameplay of SC2.
Basically, people who think that SC2 is hugely different from BW are fooling themselves.
Yes, I love how people are summarizing SC2 after what... 1-2 years? And comparing it to top level Brood War that has been evolving (and still is) for.... 10 years?
Yeah guys, whine about every single fucking thing that you don't like. TvP is being figured out. Terran has found a composition that completely destroys Protoss, we'll see how Protoss responds to it in time. But nooooo blizzard must PATCH! Tanks must be usable in all matchups because it FEELS right! Jesus...
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You can immediately tell who the WoW forum babies are from the people who immediately think OP 'wants Protoss nerfed' and kneejerk reflex to their WoW forum days of defending their class from the evil nerfbat.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
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EPT
