EPT[D] Terran, TvP and game-design - Page 25
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terran151
Canada103 Posts
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
1) Tank dmg is changed from 35 (+15 vs armor) to 50 (-15 vs light). Shields take full dmg from tank shots (like in BW). 2) Remove 'Strike cannon' and give Thors ablative plating as an upgrade, that reduces splash dmg by a significant amount (say 70%). Give hellions a similar upgrade. Optional: Revamp the thor anti-air. No more splash, but straight up dmg. | ||
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
On October 04 2011 03:49 mr_chapy wrote: ok..i have read about 10 pages in this thread and i havent come across a single objective solution to the ´´problem´´ being discussed... so , what exactly is the point of this thread ? well there've been some ideas, mostly not very good ones, besides one that cought my eye, and that is adding damage to massive for tanks, which would affect collosi and archons. it would also affect thors (not THAT big of a deal althought thors are useful for breaking siege lines) and ultras (well not sure how that would turn out) but the most common attitude is to wait either for HoTS and new units being added in, or just wait for the metagame to shift (would have to be accompanied by a balance patch im sure, otherwise i don't see anything right now P can do to force T shift away from MMMVG). it's been over a year since the release (not counting the beta) and other matchups have evolved SO much besides tvp and pvp (tvp the only big change there was was P getting HTs and T respoing with ghosts). that what makes me think it's gonna take a looong time before that happens (a shift) tho (HoTS the earliest). hope im wrong tho! (a thing i think is a bit funny i noticed in this thread. ppl with low counts usually don't agree with me and like bio a lot - and i don't take that away from them!, while ppl with high post count tend to agree with me (at least on the most parts), i assume those are former BW players so im glad im not alone on this one  | ||
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striderxxx
Canada443 Posts
On October 04 2011 04:41 Roxy wrote: IMO your argument about terran losing when the protoss has colosus and you have no vikings or when the protoss has templar and the terran has no ghosts is flawed. . I would say it's more than just flawed, his point regarding the counters was just plain stupid. Collosus don't appear out of thin air. If you are completely caught off guard, that means you have a critical failure in the scouting area before you even engage. | ||
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Reptilia
Chile913 Posts
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LeoLeo
Sweden456 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 1. Scouting + hard counters. The main problem is how micro makes effect in the early to mid game, you can't really micro to such an extent that you're units will hold anything. Instead it comes down to scouting which is really fucking lame and retarded. I feel like it is very severe for both protoss and terran, but mostly for protoss since their most reliable scouting is very expensive (robo + obs) and it sets them back economically by a lot. The terran has a little bit of an easier time, scouting the front etc is a good way to figure out what the toss is doing, but there are still sooo many cookie cutting all-ins that just blows my mind every day I try to play this game. Furthermore BO advantages are really severe too, there just aren't that many ways you can "outplay" your opponent if you are at a BO disadvantage. Of course there are ways, but if you compare to another matchup like TvZ there really isn't like the MKP marine split against banelings you can do. I don't know though... I just feel like TvP is very dull and in the current metagame very boring. Lategame is a little bit funnier, but it's still meh with ghost vs HT battles and what not.. 2. Health / mobility We can all agree upon giving the defender the advantage makes for interesting and clever games. Otherwise no one would really dare to get ahead and we would just do 1 base all ins all day which isn't interesting to play or to watch. What does health and mobility have to do with this? Well, protoss units are sturdy. They are sturdy and they are mobile. If a tvp was to turn into a positional wars it would just end with the toss having his cliff walking tanks kill isolated groups of tanks or ran past most defenses. Why? In a 3 base vs 3 base scenario where the terran goes mech for positional play and the protoss goes for lets say stalker colossi. The terran would have to foresee every single move the toss makes because their armies are probably even in a straight up fight and if the terran has to run around with unsieged tanks against blinking units + cliffwalking units... If think we all can conclude what's going to happen. Even though this was a very unlikely and biased scenario you hopefully get the point. I just don't think the TvP matchup was so well thought out. It feels like its stepping towards this lame tug of war game where both sides build units and if one sides builds the wrong units he loses. Which is really poor game design. 3. Warp in I think the warp in is a really cool mechanic, it gives the toss a lot of map control and mass speed prism play actually makes me not think of protoss as a despicable race. Although it destroys some of the basic elements necessary for a good game design. Gateway units NEED to be weaker than basic terran units, they really need to. Firstly map size is not an as important variable anymore and if stalkers were stronger warp gate rushes would be really strong on big maps if the terran went for a FE. If he didn't and instead went for a strong push the toss would be behind and it would create weird coinflip scenarios which aren't really that good. Also lategame it is realllllly strong already with insta reinforcements after a 200/200 battle where the terran has to wait for his units to build first. Also it is very strong defensively with mass exansions, remember amulet and that game with san against virus? on Terminus RE where the terran was ahead all the time, but couldn't push or harass due to HTs warping in. To conclude I think warpgate is a cool thing, but it makes it so that protoss units need to be weaker otherwise the game would be coinflippier and protoss would have an even stronger lategame. Consistency 4. Protoss is a really fragile race in every aspect, why don't we see more tosses in code S? Are they worse or is terran imba? Maybe both, I although think it has to do with the design of the race, Naniwa said recently in an interview that he thinks protoss is a really fragile race where it is possible to beat anyone, but it is hard to do consistently. The solution? I think toss needs an early game scout which isn't the observer or hallucination. The problem with hallucination is that you become very exposed to banshee timings and you are forced to rely heavily on sentries if you want to have some forcefields available and robo is expensive and sets you back in the macro race. Unless you want to flip the coin, which is bad. Solutions? I am very unsure of this as I haven't been thinking about solutions too much since I don't develop games, but after reading this thread and done some thinking of my own I've come to this. Early game scouting: Either make it possible to research hallucinate observer from the cybercore for the right amount of gas, this would make it possible for protoss to survive against banshees and what not without robotech, but it would cost a suitable energy count and I don't think the duration should be too long. Warp ins: Use nexuses as the only place where you can warp in. This removes most aggresive use of the warp in really and would make warp prisms (which I love) worthless, so changing the warp prism to a shuttle would be more suitable, but the shuttle will have very low hull and very high shields for continous use instead of 1 big drop. Regarding hard counters and micro and the real lack of punishment for a terran am I not sure about. Preferably I would love to remove some units from the game such as the marauder and the colossus as they are boring. What is feel is needed is something the protoss can use to harass with and kill big bioballs, I also think the unit should look like a worm and be retarded. Terran needs a good way to shutdown counter attacks, siegetanks just don't cut it. I could see mech working vs protoss on some maps where it,s only basicly one straight line, but I think that may be imbalanced in tvz and pvz ^___^. What the terran basicly needs is the spider mine or imba tanks, I just don't see any way around it. Most of protoss units don't actually die against mech which is what this matchup lacks to be interesting imo. TL;DR for those of you who are not interested in reading my post 8 games lost against protoss today rant: I want to play mech and think protoss is a poorly designed race. Cheers~~ | ||
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Apollo_Shards
1210 Posts
On October 04 2011 05:02 EnderSword wrote: How did a Brood War > SC2 Thread, and what is basically a hidden balance whine thread become a featured post? He acknowledges that some players simply don't play the style he's complaining about, but then says he didn't bother to check if those guys were doing well. Whole thing seems silly, 'We only play this style....except for 1/1/1 which is dominating the scene, and mech play which I'm ignoring' If most people wrote this, it'd just be closed. The bioball right now is pretty successful, so there's not a lot of incentive to move away from it. There was a time when mech was almost unstoppable, and 1/1/1 shows the ability to mix bio and mech early for amazing results. There's a lot of options here and we see more all the time, I don't think its bad design that people use viable strategies. Yea, I agree. Because he's a pro player I think he got away with the Broodwar > SC2 and the balance complaining. But this shouldn't be featured because it has massive holes in it like you and other mentioned. On October 04 2011 03:14 MLG_Wiggin wrote: It's actually the only account I have o_o I just don't understand where you are coming from. The overriding consensus in this thread is "nerf bio"... how is it a balance whine? As for defending Terran... I also think bio should be nerfed in this match up? I'm not trying to defend Terran here. I'm trying to say that you have a bunch of pros weighing in on this thread, maybe you should heed what they say? Oh yea, just so many pro weighing in on this issue. Ive only seen two pros, and only one of them have notable championships and the credentials for me to respect their opinion. Pulling out the "well a guy's better then me said so, so it must be true" is stupid and isnt even an argument. And no, the overriding consensus how the heck did this post become featured. People have been complaining about bioballs for ages but this thread said specifically he wanted tanks to replace it, just because he liked TvP in broodwar better. I wasnt inferring you had multiple accounts, I just noted that you spend quite a bit of your posts defending Terran. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 04 2011 03:46 Whitewing wrote: I would disagree with this. Players use roaches all the time before they have speed or burrow (and often don't get roach burrow at all in a lot of games). Players make use of banelings defensively without getting speed as well, and then sometimes switch out of banelings instead of getting speed. You can make excellent use of most units without getting their major upgrade, as long as you aren't planning on basing your entire gameplan around that unit. Sure, some upgrades from each race are needed to really make those units shine, but you can make use of the units without the upgrade. People who play mech often open with a few marines to stop scouting and for some early defense and never get stim. Players don't always get blink for their stalkers, despite making stalkers. None of these upgrades, with the exception of warp gate is 100% required for every game regardless of strategy. They are options you can select to make a certain style of play significantly stronger. The fact that there are far fewer upgrades for Toss (and zerg to a lesser extent) speaks to the incompleteness of the races: it suggests flat out that they have fewer strategy options. The amount of upgrades available is indicative of the amount of theoretical variety each race can have. Thats pretty much what I wrote. Maybe my post about zerg upgrades sounded like the unit would be useless without it... which would just be wrong. But the keything to note here is, that Zerg upgrades are crucial when massing those unit and Terran upgrades are crucial when massing those units. For Protoss Upgrades that isn't true and that is simply meant that way by design. Terrans and Zergs have to decide which units to go for, and ergo try to make those specific units stronger. Protoss is meant to have Templar tech at some point of the game, so they can choose between 4-5units with each warp-in, depending on what they need (therefore upgrading the zealot with, zealot shields, zealot scythe and zealot jetpacks would destroy that design, as you would have to choose zealot with each warpin, to justify the costs of the upgrade) Charge and Blink are upgrades, that are not designed to strengthen Zealots and Stalkers. They should give them more uses. I see what you mean with units being used before they have crucial upgrades. But note how they are used. a handful of banelings on creep against nonstim marines or to bust down a depot a handful or roaches to kill sentries/break a protoss wallin to let speedlings clean up the rest a bunch of marines to be safe before your mech comes out 4hellions to deny creep and mapcontrol and expand safely, to make the tank/marine push stronger that's all just transitioning. Those units are used because they grant a role the other units can't fulfill, but they are not intended to be massed! also I would mention, that especially Terran and Zerg had a lot of upgrades being created, after the unit was initially designed to have that ability from the start! (because as written, they turned out OP with them at the timing when the unit entered the battlefield) while I can't remember a single one for protoss... | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
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Apollo_Shards
1210 Posts
On October 04 2011 05:08 PredY wrote: well there've been some ideas, mostly not very good ones, besides one that cought my eye, and that is adding damage to massive for tanks, which would affect collosi and archons. it would also affect thors (not THAT big of a deal althought thors are useful for breaking siege lines) and ultras (well not sure how that would turn out) but the most common attitude is to wait either for HoTS and new units being added in, or just wait for the metagame to shift (would have to be accompanied by a balance patch im sure, otherwise i don't see anything right now P can do to force T shift away from MMMVG). it's been over a year since the release (not counting the beta) and other matchups have evolved SO much besides tvp and pvp (tvp the only big change there was was P getting HTs and T respoing with ghosts). that what makes me think it's gonna take a looong time before that happens (a shift) tho (HoTS the earliest). hope im wrong tho! (a thing i think is a bit funny i noticed in this thread. ppl with low counts usually don't agree with me and like bio a lot - and i don't take that away from them!, while ppl with high post count tend to agree with me (at least on the most parts), i assume those are former BW players so im glad im not alone on this one :) Honest question. If broodwar was so much better then why not play or watch that? No one forces you to watch TvP without tanks. | ||
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IGotPlayguuu
Italy660 Posts
On October 04 2011 05:22 Apollo_Shards wrote: Honest question. If broodwar was so much better then why not play or watch that? No one forces you to watch TvP without tanks. Maybe because BW has almost no sponsors in the foreign scene? One of the major reasons why almost every foreinger bw "pro" has switched to SC2 is because they can actually live by playing a game (SC2 brought a lot of sponsors) | ||
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
On October 04 2011 05:22 Apollo_Shards wrote: Honest question. If broodwar was so much better then why not play or watch that? No one forces you to watch TvP without tanks. honest answer: because i love starcraft. i love playing it, watching it, thinking and talking about starcraft. i want sc2 to succeed like BW did in korea, but will it? why not build up on what we knew was working in BW - positional play, soft counters that encourages a lot of micro, decision making etc. you don't have to recreate BW but take inspiration from it, not just make a game with "cool" units like marauer and collosus and stamp Starcraft name on it. (i hope it doesn't sound too harsh, because i fucking respect blizzard and im happy they are trying to make it right) | ||
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Apollo_Shards
1210 Posts
On October 04 2011 05:28 IGotPlayguuu wrote: Maybe because BW has almost no sponsors in the foreign scene? One of the major reasons why almost every foreinger bw "pro" has switched to SC2 is because they can actually live by playing a game (SC2 brought a lot of sponsors) Yea, but Im thinking that he is watching more than playing. On October 04 2011 05:32 PredY wrote: honest answer: because i love starcraft. i love playing it, watching it, thinking and talking about starcraft. i want sc2 to succeed like BW did in korea, but will it? why not build up on what we knew was working in BW - positional play, soft counters that encourages a lot of micro, decision making etc. you don't have to recreate BW but take inspiration from it, not just make a game with "cool" units like marauer and collosus and stamp Starcraft name on it. (i hope it doesn't sound too harsh, because i fucking respect blizzard and im happy they are trying to make it right) Ok, thank you for the answer. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 04 2011 05:22 Apollo_Shards wrote: Honest question. If broodwar was so much better then why not play or watch that? No one forces you to watch TvP without tanks. he doesn't like experiencing the "balancing" (meaning everything is so hard to use, that how the game is played is not a matter of balance in the sense of how strong things are, but rather if you can control them. 2 control groups of tanks that are slowly pushed over the map, or 10control groups of marines running all over the place and never really showing their full fire power? Ofc everyone played Mech!) | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On October 04 2011 02:13 CecilSunkure wrote: Title is a little misleading. It doesn't really have much to do with game design, other than saying the current design is a poor one. I'd tend to agree, but I just feel people haven't figured out how to use mech properly yet is all. That's just my opinion on the matter. If I were Terran I'd be meching in TvP trying to get it to work, much like how in PvP back in the day I never 4 Gated and ended up finding YongHwa's 3 Stalker opening. I'd say I understand that there are frustrations about the Terran race, but I think it would be best to just wait and see how strategies evolve. Eh, all the "good Terran mech players" have figured out that...it doesn't work. You get punished for building tanks against protosses that know what they are doing. It's not a matter of "making it work." It doesn't work. Take it from someone who used to pure ghostmech every TvP in the beta, and has tried to make it work since - it doesn't work. It's not a matter of "figuring things out" - it's just not cost effective, and the protoss counters are 100% easier to pull off micro/macro-wise. And on top of that maps suck for mech as well, especially big maps. Imagine in brood war you are crossing the map with a mech army, protoss suicides zealots/dragoons/templar storms into your army, but you hit off good science vessel emps and managed to survive with some units left to move on and punish the faraway expansions. Now imagine in brood war your protoss opponent has one pylon at that expansion and can instantly have an arbiter recall available at that pylon for no energy cost, and can constantly arbiter recall in to that 1 location. You'll never kill that expansion. Welcome to SC2 tvp mech on large maps. That is just one example of why going mech is futile. Sorta repeating myself, but in beta when tanks actually did brood war damage, you could cost effectively play late into the game, and that situation i just described, you would be left with a lot, a lot more instead of having 100% of your army evaporated. It's not a matter of players "making it work" anymore. Blizzard actually has changed the game so much that it just does not work anymore. First tank damage nerfed. Then zealots made to be able to easily last through tank fire. Then the thor nerfed because of 1 series of MC vs thorzain. Now the hellion nerfed, so unlike with bio where there is a threat of drops, there is no more threat of hellion drops or runbys because they don't do shit. Players have done everything they can to make mech viable, and anytime it showed signs of becoming able to be played, blizzard nerfed it to hell essentially saying to terran players "stop making tanks this is not broodwar this is SC2! If you ever make mech work again, we are going to get rid of it! Go make more marines and marauders like we told you to! We are SERIOUS! If you keep trying to make tanks work and eventually do you little bastards, we are going to make the armory cost 150 gas! MYAHAHAHA." So yeah....at this point it is out of player's hands on making mech work. | ||
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VTPerfect
United States487 Posts
Theres no reason to spend lots of heartache and pain trying to make macro mech work when mmg+v is so successful. If your TvP winrate isn't high its because your missing essential skillsets to be successful in the MU and should be focusing on attaining those skills. Heres a list of the skills i'm talking about. 1. Stutter step technique 2. Unit Cascading - I'm not sure what the correct term is for this technique but understanding that Colossi splash in horizontal lines you can heavily reduce Colossus AoE by moving units forward and backward. This is why colossus are devastating at Master Level play but terrible at Pro level. 3. Ghost Control - EMP outranges everything, you mention if they have Psi Storm and you don't have Ghosts you lose. This is true but at the same time Ghosts prevent gaurdian shields and forcefields and do insane DPS to every Protoss unit, so why you would not tech up to ghosts in every TvP doesn't make a whole lot of sense. As an added bonus when you have enough ghosts you disable one of the most powerful protoss t3 units the Archon by triple emping and then 1 shotting them. Learning new skillsets is not impossible, Wc3 players had to learn how to control income and production efficiently as well as not to pay too much attention to unit control when more important things need to happen, as well as adapt from the 1-2 cookie cutter builds per MU skill always wins to 12+ openings 4+ strats in every MU some builds free win other builds. I understand where your coming from but what of BW Protoss players decided, I don't like sentries i'm Protoss and my Zealots and Stalkers are powerful like in Sc1 so i'm going to mass Zealot/Stalker vs Roach/Ling and Marine/Marauder and be upset because these units are trash in Sc2 and I lose alot. | ||
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
On October 04 2011 05:39 VTPerfect wrote: I understand where your coming from but what of BW Protoss players decided, I don't like sentries i'm Protoss and my Zealots and Stalkers are powerful like in Sc1 so i'm going to mass Zealot/Stalker vs Roach/Ling and Marine/Marauder and be upset because these units are trash in Sc2 and I lose alot. Exactly how I used to play lol....... hated sentries. | ||
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kiy0
Portugal593 Posts
On October 04 2011 03:50 humbre wrote: you see you are whats wrong with this forum, completely clueless people write garbage out of their ass (no wonder most pro players stopped to read it), fyi in tvp matchup gas is not a problem you always starve on minerals it was already said by many pro terrans so you would expect even bronze players by now to know that but no ... Actually I think it's people like you that are a cancer to the community with their feisty attitudes. You could have just responded with a simple "I don't believe that to be true because..." but instead you go for the cheap insult and the wbGosu type of comments. Way to go pal! Back on the subject, I believe that with Immortals having range 6, tanks might actually end up being used as they were originally intended to: a support role with benefits regarding positioning and AoE damage. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On October 04 2011 05:39 VTPerfect wrote: PredY I don't think your TvP woes are a result of the current state of TvP in Sc2. Firstly you bring up alot of tank nostalgia from sc1. Sc2 is a different game and terran has new units that are good and older ones that aren't so good. Theres no reason to spend lots of heartache and pain trying to make macro mech work when mmg+v is so successful. If your TvP winrate isn't high its because your missing essential skillsets to be successful in the MU and should be focusing on attaining those skills. Heres a list of the skills i'm talking about. 1. Stutter step technique 2. Unit Cascading - I'm not sure what the correct term is for this technique but understanding that Colossi splash in horizontal lines you can heavily reduce Colossus AoE by moving units forward and backward. This is why colossus are devastating at Master Level play but terrible at Pro level. 3. Ghost Control - EMP outranges everything, you mention if they have Psi Storm and you don't have Ghosts you lose. This is true but at the same time Ghosts prevent gaurdian shields and forcefields and do insane DPS to every Protoss unit, so why you would not tech up to ghosts in every TvP doesn't make a whole lot of sense. As an added bonus when you have enough ghosts you disable one of the most powerful protoss t3 units the Archon by triple emping and then 1 shotting them. Learning new skillsets is not impossible, Wc3 players had to learn how to control income and production efficiently as well as not to pay too much attention to unit control when more important things need to happen, as well as adapt from the 1-2 cookie cutter builds per MU skill always wins to 12+ openings 4+ strats in every MU some builds free win other builds. I understand where your coming from but what of BW Protoss players decided, I don't like sentries i'm Protoss and my Zealots and Stalkers are powerful like in Sc1 so i'm going to mass Zealot/Stalker vs Roach/Ling and Marine/Marauder and be upset because these units are trash in Sc2 and I lose alot. This is the most condescending post I have seen in awhile. You seem to have completely missed the message of this thread or decided it was more about winrates than actual game. He and many others just want to be able to explore the other 50% of Terran instead of being limited to only bio in a matchup. If you want to tell him to shut up just go ahead and do it, don't slyly insult the man. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 04 2011 05:52 Numy wrote: This is the most condescending post I have seen in awhile. You seem to have completely missed the message of this thread or decided it was more about winrates than actual game. He and many others just want to be able to explore the other 50% of Terran instead of being limited to only bio in a matchup. If you want to tell him to shut up just go ahead and do it, don't slyly insult the man. nope. they want to stop using 41,6% of the units (M,M,M,V,G) and want to use only 25% (H,T,T) instead, while wanting them to work just as well (or even better) as the other composition. | ||
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