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OP seems to be making a very, very elementary point--which is that ideally TvP could stand to be more strategically diverse. On this point, I'm not sure how it's possible to disagree with him; strategic diversity is pretty much always a good thing, even if you like the matchup as it stands. But how to go about actually making the matchup more diverse, of course, is the part where it gets sticky.
I don't have too many brilliant suggestions for this, and it seems few people do. We'll have to wait and see what Blizzard comes up with for HotS; a strong Protoss harass unit and some more anti-Toss mech power could do a lot to shake up the matchup.
On something of a tangent, though, I have always, always, always opposed all attempts to neuter the Warp Gate mechanic and make Gateways the primary unit production structure for Toss. I think it would make the game much less interesting, and much less fun both to watch and to play; and like it or not, "fun" is a big part of the reason why both BW and SC2 are such a joy for spectators and players alike. Now, the mechanic can be tweaked if it really does break the game; but right now, it seems to work pretty well, and the interactions it has with units are legitimately interesting and versatile. I see little need to reinvent the entire game for Toss based on so little provocation.
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On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
it'd also make carriers something you could maybe get away with as well, because tech switching into them won't already be pre-countered by the vikings the terran made to deal with the colossi...
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On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
Yes, and it would also make playing protoss a much more enjoyable feeling. Because I personally really hate that unit, and I would love to see mech play work. Really well said, I hope blizzard does this in hots..
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On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
Definately, not to mention giving Toss an actual harassment option in TvP
How would a reaver work vs rauder tho???? Seems like it would get blasted to pieces in seconds without doing enough damage.
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United States7483 Posts
On October 04 2011 13:13 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
Definately, not to mention giving Toss an actual harassment option in TvP How would a reaver work vs rauder tho???? Seems like it would get blasted to pieces in seconds without doing enough damage.
Just have the explosion do bonus damage vs. bio instead of against light or against armored, although that could screw up PvZ...... hrm. Maybe do really heavy normal damage but greatly reduced damage vs. massive?
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Wow Puma vs Hasu obs is such a perfect example of OP's claim right now at IEM.
Marauder Collsi Ball vs Ball ftw.
Although Pumas Opening was actually really cool so it was a good five minutes of the match, now they are both in the typical Ball vs Ball.
Edit: Both players get to 200/200 have one battle EMP everywhere and then the battle goes for about 5 more secs
2nd Edit, both players remax EMP goes off battles last 8 secs this time. Puma rolls through.
two battles for a 20 minute game. So terrible.
Now for the next part of the bo5 we have a 1-1-1 all in.
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On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
IIRC the colossus WAS initially designed in a similar way....it must've been way back in beta, I'm not even sure anymore if the propositions made it in the beta or if it was just alpha.
But at some point a pretty long time ago the colossus did more damage with a higher cooldown and therefore functioned like a "mobile siegetank"....more mobile but less overall dps than a real terran tank. I honestly can't remember what the official reason was why it was reworked, maybe Blizz felt that the colossus-mobility was too high to allow for such a large initial damage
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Russian Federation899 Posts
On October 04 2011 13:13 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
Definately, not to mention giving Toss an actual harassment option in TvP How would a reaver work vs rauder tho???? Seems like it would get blasted to pieces in seconds without doing enough damage.
100 dmg per blast to any unit type and 8 range. Upgrade from robotics increased the dmg up to 125.
I can't understand what will be the problem here.
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What else is there to say in this thread? It's already clear that "we don't like the state of TvP." However, according to the OP we're not to talk about balance, and we're not to talk about strategies that help either side. Without talking about either of those things, how exactly are we supposed to talk about making tanks viable in TvP or how to improve the state of the matchup at all? Honestly, this thread sounds like alot of complaining about RTS games being difficult, which they are (and that is why they are fun!).
If you look at all the matchups, I don't think that it is the case in any of them that all units are equally viable in all matchups, that's just how the game works. If this was the case, the three races would end up being too similar and the game would end up looking like Age of Empires >.>.
Anyways, the whole intent of the game is to have certain units counter other units, etc. That's why unit composition is one of the key foundations of making RTS ...well RTS. If you just want to build your favorite units in each matchup and win solely with better micro then you shouldn't be playing this game.
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This is what needs to happen to t v p. They need to lower the amount of viable all in strategies for both sides (Yes, I know, they've already nerfed like 500 all ins for both terran and toss since release) and instead increase the amount of viable MACRO strategies. As you said t v z is quite diverse for mid and late game play, it doesn't necessarily have to be only marine/tank/medi, there are quite a lot of options and timing attacks.
Massive rax play vs massive warp gate play + aoe are really the only viable options for both races if we're talking about mid and late game t v p. That said, watching some of the tip top tier koreans multi task and micro like crazy has made the match up grow on me. MMM + viking for collosus or emp for high temp CAN be entertaining because it's so action packed and filled with micro. I just wish there were more options mid and late game.
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On October 01 2011 09:37 Reborn8u wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 07:27 willsterben wrote:
yeah and now compare those games to sc1 game 1 year after release.
thanks though. will watch. The thing is, that really isn't a good comparison. The reason I say that is because when Starcraft + BW came out there weren't any other games with a 3 way race dynamic. All the RTS games I can remember were basically 2 extremely similar races. The thing you have to realize is there has been over a decade of people figuring out RTS play, and some of the things that have been learned are almost universal. When Starcraft first came out the idea of transferring workers was revolutionary. People just didn't have experience with the kind of economy management and thought processes to figure the game out. Sc2 is moving MUCH faster in terms of being figured out. The fundamentals of RTS and mechanics were already understood before the game was released. So they just had to be applied and slightly reworked to be fit onto Sc2. Seriously, we have had threads since beta scientifically analyzing the game and figuring out optimal income and worker saturation. This was unheard of when Starcraft vanilla was released. I do believe there are things to be understood in the future about compositions and transitions for builds, but I doubt we will see anything as revolutionary as when Mech was first invented, muta stacking/harass, sk terran or the bisu build in BW. Hopefully I'm wrong. Perhaps the expansions will provide more depth and allow for more to develop in the game. But if you look at BW today, the matchups are still evolving at the highest levels. I think a lot of what the OP presented is key to this. You need to have relatively weak tier one (that requires upgrades) and weak production capabilities in the early game. Strong flexible tier two (and sick upgrades) and insane tier 3. This gives players more flexibility in the early game to set up for different builds.However in Sc2, because of the power of early units (marine,marauder,reaper,sentries, roaches banlings, ) and early production mechanics (addon swapping, reactors, warpgate, larva inject) the early game is basically a frenzy. Where you have to try and scout constantly so you don't die because of the ability for units to mass so early, or for a huge econ advantage to occur (think of a zerg who hatch firsts and drones up, a protoss who expands really fast and crono probes, or a terrans with mules). In a way a lot of things in SC2 are forced because of these concepts which prevents a lot of flexibility.
^-- this. agreed 100%
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I hate to play bio in tvp so i try other techniques.
FE into mech with ghosts : If i win i win eZ, if i loose that means my army got demolished in 10 sec because of p good army composition or bad engagement. But i feel that when i win it's more because the p sux that me doing a good job.
111 into sky terran : this is fun to play, you just have to harass a lot with banshees and keep the stalker count in control. bring raven snipe obs with viking and cloack banshee target firing all the stalkers.
Now that i m in masters i have the feeling that those funny builds won t work anymore, so my only option is to go back to bio and fight vs p AOE units.
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On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
Or give DT Cleave. From D&D Wiki: "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature."
Edit: Basically gives DT a free hit if it kills the previous target (workers/marines/etc)
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On October 04 2011 18:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
Or give DT Cleave. From D&D Wiki: "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature." Edit: Basically gives DT a free hit if it kills the previous target (workers/marines/etc)
...
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On October 04 2011 18:28 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 18:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
Or give DT Cleave. From D&D Wiki: "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature." Edit: Basically gives DT a free hit if it kills the previous target (workers/marines/etc) ...
You want the DT dps to double? Im not 100% sure but that might give an invisible unit the highest dps in the game. 5 seconds to clear a whole min line.....
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On October 04 2011 19:45 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 18:28 Quotidian wrote:On October 04 2011 18:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
Or give DT Cleave. From D&D Wiki: "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature." Edit: Basically gives DT a free hit if it kills the previous target (workers/marines/etc) ... You want the DT dps to double? Im not 100% sure but that might give an invisible unit the highest dps in the game. 5 seconds to clear a whole min line.....
That was must have been a really small mineral line, since the DT would only get three attacks for up to 6 kills in 5 seconds. 
Anyway I do feel that the DT has his niche as it is and is not the unit that should get changed for Protoss.
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Hey predy,
just read your article not the comments.
Infact Thor + armor grades blueflame with viking/raven support was awesome. I played it alot and had like 80% winrate even if i also missed tanks but tanks are and were simply too bad. But ye, Thor got nerfed to death, blueflame even also in last patch so its not viable.
I agree 100% with you im very happy that you and many other topterrans feel the same way. I just want to play Tech or Tech bio mix to even the Tech ( Coloss ) Gate mix up abit, but its almost not possible.
Goodys ghostmech is strong but if you face an active and smart protoss there is no way to fight costeffective and even if you do, you cripple over the map and your army which is not remaxed in 2warpins will be crushed by 2 warpins since you rely on a strong lategame unit composition which takes ages to max out.
Despite that i was experimenting with lategame unit compositions as Terran and i found out that Battlecruiser are somewhat awesome vs Toss, but they rely on upgrades and since u wont have 2 armorys ull have to face coloss first so u grade vikings to atleast +2airgrade and then 1-2armor grade and 4base+ before u actually can switch effectivly to battlecruiser, the transition however can be hard to execute.
But in Lategame ofc u dont wna have alot of marines or even no marines, maybe blueflame helions if theres a large number of chargezealots ( which is another viable unit BUT got hardcore nerfed and i dont even know how they can kill supertankszealots anymore ), so your unit composition would be like Battlecruiser/Marauder/ghost but ofc it costs alot of Gas so it must be a long macro game.
Also HSM are pretty aswesome, the MOST annoying thing about Terrantech and protoss is just that HT's and feedback counter literally EVERYTHING..
I really want thors without energy and just 90sec cd on 250mm or smth back.. that change was just bad and only affected TvP and u were still pretty volnurable to blinkstalker aggression so imo there was just no need to change Thors.
Back to HSM, its really hard to execute since feedback kills raven in an instant but if you play just massivly better than the protoss and can somewhat gain mapvision control and shut down observer play ( f.e. ) shak splittmap, have middle with 3 turrets+ and a planetary you can cloakghost emp everything if Toss engages or maybe with your own engagement and havin some EMP + HSM completly destroys.
Also comming to HSM i feel like the Game itself besides cheeses, in every matchup relys on AOE dmg effects.
Terrans have great but hard to use AOE dps units. Tanks and blueflame helions got nerfed and are very good in TvT, Ok'ish in TvZ and not good in TvP. EMP is just an aoe ( DPS ) spell against protoss which is somewhat of an trade for the shit helion/tank in that matchup and there is HSM which is maybe somewhat of underused, i think since the speed increase it will have some use in Late TvT/TvZ but also in TvP you must play perfectly to make the Gas worth it since one ht can kill like 600 gas in an instant which is retarded.
So yes i can only agree we need some changes, i think terran is the strongest Race but requires most skill, but despite that TvP is just stupid to play sometimes, if you trade of armys and make good dmg against toss they just have those SUPERSTRONG USEFULL AOE DPS UNITS and if you dont manage to kill them with or have their count reduced they will have so many timing where just Archons / Coloss / ht can destroy you so hard even with good positioning and engagement even if your the better player. Which is ok Because Tech should be better in 90% of the time, but we just have 1 AOE DPS Tech option which is an awesome spell ( EMP ) but thats it.
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On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
I would like to know how exactly the reaver is suppose to help vs 4gate? Can you even get it out in time?
But yes, please wreck the stupid stupid unit that is a collosus and bring us something aka reaver. And while we're at it, remove warpgate tech or make it slower than standard gateways.
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To replace colossi with reavers would take several weeks of testing. First the reaver itself (armour type, speed, cost, building time) and imo more important the scarab. Can it move over your units? How about the travel speed, the damage to all kinds of armour types, the AoE range and so on.
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EPT
