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On October 05 2011 02:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 02:13 QTIP. wrote:On October 05 2011 02:04 darmousseh wrote:On October 05 2011 02:02 QTIP. wrote:On October 05 2011 01:57 darmousseh wrote:On October 04 2011 16:41 sleepingdog wrote:On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
IIRC the colossus WAS initially designed in a similar way....it must've been way back in beta, I'm not even sure anymore if the propositions made it in the beta or if it was just alpha. But at some point a pretty long time ago the colossus did more damage with a higher cooldown and therefore functioned like a "mobile siegetank"....more mobile but less overall dps than a real terran tank. I honestly can't remember what the official reason was why it was reworked, maybe Blizz felt that the colossus-mobility was too high to allow for such a large initial damage Because collosus are so mobile, they used to be able to do a lot of front loaded damage so you would just send em in for 1 shot and retreat. You could wipe out an entire bio army with just a small group of collosus in 1 shot. Now it takes a few shots. Since collosus don't do too much "overshooting" they are better than reavers in battle and have an infite supply of ammo. The last thing protoss needs is another unit which can be emped. I don't know what the solution is, but i don't think it's reaver. Reaver would fucking rape 1-1-1 though. That range/splash would be invaluable vs Marines and tank-positioning would be a struggle. Also, what makes the Reaver more susceptible to EMP than the Colossus? Didn't understand that part.. Actually now that you mention it, a reaver would be a good mid-game/harrass unit. I don't think it would solve the ball vs ball problem, but it would help in other areas. I agree with your statement. Hmm yeah. Also, Jinro mentioned that it would push Terran away from Bio and towards Mech, which would be refreshing. The only thing I foresee as a huge problem is the Marauder. It would rape Reavers.... And the shuttle trying to save the reaver would be murdered by vikings.
Without the colossi there's no reason for Terrans to get vikings aside from actually killing air units, it also weakens their ground army. So the whole dynamic changes. Colossi basically deny protoss air tech since they are counted as them.
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United States2113 Posts
On October 05 2011 02:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 02:13 QTIP. wrote:On October 05 2011 02:04 darmousseh wrote:On October 05 2011 02:02 QTIP. wrote:On October 05 2011 01:57 darmousseh wrote:On October 04 2011 16:41 sleepingdog wrote:On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
IIRC the colossus WAS initially designed in a similar way....it must've been way back in beta, I'm not even sure anymore if the propositions made it in the beta or if it was just alpha. But at some point a pretty long time ago the colossus did more damage with a higher cooldown and therefore functioned like a "mobile siegetank"....more mobile but less overall dps than a real terran tank. I honestly can't remember what the official reason was why it was reworked, maybe Blizz felt that the colossus-mobility was too high to allow for such a large initial damage Because collosus are so mobile, they used to be able to do a lot of front loaded damage so you would just send em in for 1 shot and retreat. You could wipe out an entire bio army with just a small group of collosus in 1 shot. Now it takes a few shots. Since collosus don't do too much "overshooting" they are better than reavers in battle and have an infite supply of ammo. The last thing protoss needs is another unit which can be emped. I don't know what the solution is, but i don't think it's reaver. Reaver would fucking rape 1-1-1 though. That range/splash would be invaluable vs Marines and tank-positioning would be a struggle. Also, what makes the Reaver more susceptible to EMP than the Colossus? Didn't understand that part.. Actually now that you mention it, a reaver would be a good mid-game/harrass unit. I don't think it would solve the ball vs ball problem, but it would help in other areas. I agree with your statement. Hmm yeah. Also, Jinro mentioned that it would push Terran away from Bio and towards Mech, which would be refreshing. The only thing I foresee as a huge problem is the Marauder. It would rape Reavers.... And the shuttle trying to save the reaver would be murdered by vikings.
Maybe, but the Terran has to be slightly crazy to make a decent # of vikings to simply stop a shuttle. He will be taking away from Medivac production heavily. If the Vikings are unable to snipe the Warp Prism, the Bio army with reduced healing will get destroooyed by Scarabs. The Speed upgrade / increased HP of the Warp Prism is quite tanky.
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On October 05 2011 01:50 WickedBit wrote:
A reaver would be nice but its too late in the cycle to make huge changes like that.
Here is one idea I was considering, instead of removing colossi make it more like the reaver.
1. Reduce movement speed of the colossus to about 50% of what it is and increase colossus damage/reduce attack speed to beta levels.
2. Make robotics bay a lot cheaper (150/100),like it was in BW, and build faster or remove the requirement of robo bay to build colossus.
3. Optionally add an upgrade in robo bay to increase movement speed of colossus (though I am not in favor of this).
Here are the implications of this
1. Colossus no longer able to keep up with protoss army which makes it more likely to need a transport enabling interesting drop ship play. Later in game thermal lance means toss can drop a colossi behind the army and roast them a bit but it still allows for z/t armies to run away.
2. Due its speed its more likely to be sniped by vikings/corruptors which makes having large colossi numbers kinda hard to support, which means they need damage upgrade to make them worth the cost.
3. Early colossi makes 1-1-1 useless since they will take out large numbers of marines with 1 swipe (45 dmgx2). Also speed shuttles + colossi = fried workers.
It basically would be interesting to test this out and see how things play out. Toss might have problems with terran 2+ base armies but they should have templars/archons by then to take care of that.
I would actually like a change that splits the tech path for protoss. Since Protoss already has heavy anti-armor unit in the Immortal, I think it would be awesome to adjust the Collosi to be a less durable mostly anti-light unit. Make the collosi cheaper, speedier, and cheaper to build, but majorly nerf its damage output against armored and reduce its splash radius and default attack range. Make the collosi unlockable at robo facility as well. This way, the protoss ball must be tailored against the composition of the enermy, so a mass marauder force would just completely roll a collosi based force, although I figure there might need to be some kind of AoE upgrade for the immortal at the robo bay to compensate for the reduced AoE output against armored targets.
edit: got robo bay/facility confused.
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Didn't read 28 pages but I agree with the OP. As a Potoss player, I really liked PvT in BW and I mostly dislike PvT in SC2. I feel like in SC2 PvT, there is too much mobility and too little defenders advantage. A terran doesn't have to push across the map. No seiging, unseiging, placing mines, building missile turrets along the way, etc.
Also I feel like battles are too fragile and quick in SC2 PvT. One or two mistakes can make battles REALLY lopsided even when both armies are close to 200/200. Combined with the lack of defenders advantage, this makes it hard to have back and forth games since whoever wins a big engagement will almost always capitalize on it. This makes the matchup boring IMO.
Edit: As I was reading the thread, a couple of more thoughts:
It is not that bio is really strong in TvP, it is that Protoss counters to bio are themselves fairly easily countered by either Vikings or emp. In BW, emp was much weaker and High Templar more powerful so M&M was almost never seen.
As a Protoss player, I would love to see a buff to Tanks or even Thors if HT's weren't so easily countered by Ghosts. If that were to happen, we might even see *gasp* Carriers from time to time in PvT.
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On October 04 2011 18:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
Or give DT Cleave. From D&D Wiki: "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature." Edit: Basically gives DT a free hit if it kills the previous target (workers/marines/etc)
this would make 1 DT attack kill an entire worker line.
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On October 01 2011 06:17 Termit wrote:
I agree with everything you say PredY. TvP is not good at all. I wonder how the matchup would look like in SC2 if there was no warpgates. What do you guys think?
I've been playing BW only the whole week and going mech and gaining mapcontrol and cover ground with tanks and mines is so beautiful <3.
Oh yeah the micro part I have to agree with Thorzain tho. Feels like you as a Terran have to do so much much more in the battles and you have to macro at the same too since you can't warpin 20 units when you lose your army, hehe.
I'll tell you how it would look like: it would be even more unbalanced. Face it, warpgates is the only thing toss has to defend against multidrops, and to have a fighting chance in the long run.
I don't see why terran has to make tanks, a stimmed marauder out-dps it by far, is easily dropped, and doesn't require much micro. This is one unit that should go out with HOTS, what was wrong with bio being the EARLY GAME defense until you get mech?
I watch BW streams from times to times and oh wow does tvp looks awesome! Toss early dragoon pressures, and terran has to hold until mines or tanks, toss then has to hold until zealot leg and obs. Then it's the whole Stasis vs EMP thing, where EMP isn't cast by a "hybrid unit" who in fact is great vs light units, and has 4 spells (cloak, emp, snipe, nuke).. you know, 2 more than a pure caster like a High Templar.......
Maybe ghosts shouldn't have emp (since snipe is already the anti-HT spell), or at least should be an upgrade.
Maybe marauders shouldn't be as fast as a marine (or shouldn't exist)
Maybe medivacs shouldn't be able to drop AND heal without an upgrade
Maybe helions should have mines instead of doing high dps by attacking..
Maybe arbiters should make a comeback, and our almost-useless but original Mothership should have a more defensive role (in beta, it had a spell similar to PDD, didn't it?)
In BroodWar, the tvp matchup really felt like low tech vs high tech. Used mines and tanks to take out those lazer shooting robots, forget the marines, their guns don't do much. Even the goliath, similar in size to a Dragoon, was used only to take down air with very high range because they couldn't stand a fight vs the ground protoss army... now can Thors do? We don't see them much because a factory in tvp is only used to build a starport ( or to scout), but the thors have to be ganked by a whole protoss army to go down. What a joke matchup, not really from a balance perspective, but from a whole race design perspective. With Marauders, terrans can litterally attack a Protoss army head-on and win easily.. and here I thought protoss were the high tech aliens :/
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I've been ranting about warpgates being "broken" (read: not overpowered) since beta. They remove so much of the push and pull dynamic of the game. In regards to mass bio play, I think the issue is from terran mechs inability to "zone" areas. Everyone knows the innate immobility caused by thors and siege tanks and without an ability such as spider mine to prevent highly mobile army flanking (stalker/zealot/colossus/warpgates). This makes actually forcing an engagement as mech quite difficult and additionally makes reinforcing with mech (due to build time + travel time, vs near instant warpgate mechanic) an uphill battle on most modern maps.
Is there a solution to this? I don't really think so, not without drastic changes to both races or narrower-path maps. Obviously the latter would cause imbalance in TvZ and TvT matchups. This is just a sad fact on how SC2 TvP will play out until unit/mechanics are changed, or new units are added.
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I meched once and was up by 30 food and went into base race scenrios cause he just keep blinking into my base and running in collosi. Long story short, 1 void ray came in and obliterated everything cause he focus fire down all viking and chargelots caught me unseige....yup....up 40 food and lost in the blink of an eye. Never again will I mech and vowed to make more marauders.
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Warpgate makes the immobility of Mech very very painful.
Mix in Chargelots, Immortals, Blink Stalkers and the lack of any area denial like Spider Mines and Mech becomes extremely fragile.
Tanks get murdered by Chargelots, which take 5-6 shots to kill per Chargelot, dealing friendly fire to the tank they are attacking. The Charge ability nullifies any distance between tanks.
Thors aren't much different, Chargelots can get a quick surround, Blink Stalkers can focus fire them and Void Rays deal double bonus damage to them.
Since Mech is slow and slow to rebuild, the Warpgate and mobility of Chargelots and Blink Stalkers tear Mech to pieces bit by bit.
Bio deals with this in the same way Protoss deals with Mech.
Bio is fast (Chargelot/Blink Stalker), easy to rebuild (Warpgate), works amazingly well with drops (Protoss Air / Blink) and still deal a hefty amount of damage.
Tanks can deal well with massed units but not Chargelots.
Against Zerg it works so well because the Chargelots are replaced by fragile Speedlings that die in one hit.
Just Thor vs Zerg wouldn't work because of Speedling or Roach surrounds, which is where the Tank comes in, but it cannot fulfill that role against Protoss, leaving Tanks and Thors very vulnerable.
Too much in the Protoss arsenal devastates Tank/Thor for Mech to be viable, leaving Bio as the remaining option. Sky/Air Terran still needs to be discovered, perhaps a combination of Bio / Air is where the future is at?
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United States2113 Posts
On October 05 2011 03:44 Masq wrote:
I've been ranting about warpgates being "broken" (read: not overpowered) since beta. They remove so much of the push and pull dynamic of the game. In regards to mass bio play, I think the issue is from terran mechs inability to "zone" areas. Everyone knows the innate immobility caused by thors and siege tanks and without an ability such as spider mine to prevent highly mobile army flanking (stalker/zealot/colossus/warpgates). This makes actually forcing an engagement as mech quite difficult and additionally makes reinforcing with mech (due to build time + travel time, vs near instant warpgate mechanic) an uphill battle on most modern maps.
Is there a solution to this? I don't really think so, not without drastic changes to both races or narrower-path maps. Obviously the latter would cause imbalance in TvZ and TvT matchups. This is just a sad fact on how SC2 TvP will play out until unit/mechanics are changed, or new units are added.
I really like what you said about push/pull. Perhaps this causes what many people see as the "One big fight" in TvP that always decides the game?
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if the maurader was removed from the game, i would feel that the marine would need some sort of +1 range upgrade, sort of like in broodwar, easily obtainable like conc. shell to combat against the stalker early game... or faster tank build time perhaps?
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United States2113 Posts
On October 05 2011 04:12 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:
if the maurader was removed from the game, i would feel that the marine would need some sort of +1 range upgrade, sort of like in broodwar, easily obtainable like conc. shell to combat against the stalker early game... or faster tank build time perhaps?
I'm pretty sure Zergs would lose their shit if the Marine was buffed. I just wish the Marauder didn't exist. It's whole role is... so.. not Terran? (As Artosis put it)
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On October 05 2011 01:27 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 00:53 Swwww wrote:
Main problem is that protoss is complimented far too much by the game engine itself.
EDIT: Yes I think they should buff DT"s they are not good enough atm.
Buff DTs? seriously? That would be like buffing the ghost.
I was being sarcastic. A DT with a DnD style cleave proc would literally break the game.
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On October 05 2011 02:43 eugalp wrote:
Didn't read 28 pages but I agree with the OP. As a Potoss player, I really liked PvT in BW and I mostly dislike PvT in SC2. I feel like in SC2 PvT, there is too much mobility and too little defenders advantage. A terran doesn't have to push across the map. No seiging, unseiging, placing mines, building missile turrets along the way, etc.
Also I feel like battles are too fragile and quick in SC2 PvT. One or two mistakes can make battles REALLY lopsided even when both armies are close to 200/200. Combined with the lack of defenders advantage, this makes it hard to have back and forth games since whoever wins a big engagement will almost always capitalize on it. This makes the matchup boring IMO.
Edit: As I was reading the thread, a couple of more thoughts:
It is not that bio is really strong in TvP, it is that Protoss counters to bio are themselves fairly easily countered by either Vikings or emp. In BW, emp was much weaker and High Templar more powerful so M&M was almost never seen.
As a Protoss player, I would love to see a buff to Tanks or even Thors if HT's weren't so easily countered by Ghosts. If that were to happen, we might even see *gasp* Carriers from time to time in PvT.
The is no defender's advantage in PvT because of the retarded warpgate mechanic....
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On October 05 2011 04:26 Swwww wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 02:43 eugalp wrote:
Didn't read 28 pages but I agree with the OP. As a Potoss player, I really liked PvT in BW and I mostly dislike PvT in SC2. I feel like in SC2 PvT, there is too much mobility and too little defenders advantage. A terran doesn't have to push across the map. No seiging, unseiging, placing mines, building missile turrets along the way, etc.
Also I feel like battles are too fragile and quick in SC2 PvT. One or two mistakes can make battles REALLY lopsided even when both armies are close to 200/200. Combined with the lack of defenders advantage, this makes it hard to have back and forth games since whoever wins a big engagement will almost always capitalize on it. This makes the matchup boring IMO.
Edit: As I was reading the thread, a couple of more thoughts:
It is not that bio is really strong in TvP, it is that Protoss counters to bio are themselves fairly easily countered by either Vikings or emp. In BW, emp was much weaker and High Templar more powerful so M&M was almost never seen.
As a Protoss player, I would love to see a buff to Tanks or even Thors if HT's weren't so easily countered by Ghosts. If that were to happen, we might even see *gasp* Carriers from time to time in PvT. The is no defender's advantage in PvT because of the retarded warpgate mechanic....
Maybe warpgate tech should be a 6-7 min research: it's a nerf to 4gate (so pvp gets less retarded), hallucinations would actually be researched BEFORE (more scouting), and warpgates would be a mid to late game gimmick (to counter drops).
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On October 05 2011 04:02 Thezzy wrote:
Warpgate makes the immobility of Mech very very painful.
Mix in Chargelots, Immortals, Blink Stalkers and the lack of any area denial like Spider Mines and Mech becomes extremely fragile.
Tanks get murdered by Chargelots, which take 5-6 shots to kill per Chargelot, dealing friendly fire to the tank they are attacking. The Charge ability nullifies any distance between tanks.
Thors aren't much different, Chargelots can get a quick surround, Blink Stalkers can focus fire them and Void Rays deal double bonus damage to them.
Since Mech is slow and slow to rebuild, the Warpgate and mobility of Chargelots and Blink Stalkers tear Mech to pieces bit by bit.
Bio deals with this in the same way Protoss deals with Mech.
Bio is fast (Chargelot/Blink Stalker), easy to rebuild (Warpgate), works amazingly well with drops (Protoss Air / Blink) and still deal a hefty amount of damage.
Tanks can deal well with massed units but not Chargelots.
Against Zerg it works so well because the Chargelots are replaced by fragile Speedlings that die in one hit.
Just Thor vs Zerg wouldn't work because of Speedling or Roach surrounds, which is where the Tank comes in, but it cannot fulfill that role against Protoss, leaving Tanks and Thors very vulnerable.
Too much in the Protoss arsenal devastates Tank/Thor for Mech to be viable, leaving Bio as the remaining option. Sky/Air Terran still needs to be discovered, perhaps a combination of Bio / Air is where the future is at?
As a person who only mechs, I can say massing chargelots is actually pretty bad, even post 1.4. If they are literally just massing chargelots just get more hellions lol and play a bit more passive. Treat the chargelots like marines, they get worse as the game goes on and as you build up your mech the chargelots will evaporate.
If there is a big engagement and the only that is left are your tanks, reinforce with hellions! This was standard for broodwar as well. I'm not sure what else to say, its hard to talk about this stuff without the context of a game, if you have a rep that would help.
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well its true in a sense that tvp there is something wrong with the terran side. It usuallly ends up MMVG and all that differs among players is how they open up their builds to reach the same end result or the control they use.
Mech isnt as viable to verse toss (Although i do wish it was) to the mid-late game. As of now most terrans use mech as all in or something.... kinda depressing. Its not like end game we can randomly add a banshee, raven, or battle cruiser verse protoss. To set up the tech path and divert away from making medivacs would only make bio weaker.
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Surely this has already been stated but the reason why mech isn't viable in SC2 is largely because protoss army is just way too mobile.
Warpgate is a bit troublesome but not the main problem imho.
You can deny pylons and warp prisms. You can't however, stop the protoss from running them colossus and blink stalkers around your army and killing your expos/main.
The fact that zealots are quite beastly vs tanks doesn't help much either.
And of course then there are thors, banshees, ravens and BCs that all get raped by feedback.
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On October 05 2011 01:27 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 00:53 Swwww wrote:
Main problem is that protoss is complimented far too much by the game engine itself.
EDIT: Yes I think they should buff DT"s they are not good enough atm.
Buff DTs? seriously? That would be like buffing the ghost.
oh wait..
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On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
It seems like overall it is a very good idea for TvP .But how about ZvP,how will zerg deal with the protoss deathball ? NP is useless to the point were we see players like Idra going back to roach/hydra/corruptor... reaver + forcefield sounds pretty imba to me
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EPT
