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To replace colossi with reavers would take several weeks of testing. First the reaver itself (armour type, speed, cost, building time) and imo more important the scarab. Can it move over your units? How about the travel speed, the damage to all kinds of armour types, the AoE range and so on.
imo the game passed testing stage a long time ago and right now they should not add anymore unit to the game.
if they want to add anything wait for hots to correct their mistake and balance the game with the current units.
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On October 04 2011 21:55 Q8_Devil wrote:Show nested quote +To replace colossi with reavers would take several weeks of testing. First the reaver itself (armour type, speed, cost, building time) and imo more important the scarab. Can it move over your units? How about the travel speed, the damage to all kinds of armour types, the AoE range and so on. imo the game passed testing stage a long time ago and right now they should not add anymore unit to the game. if they want to add anything wait for hots to correct their mistake and balance the game with the current units.
they're having a new beta period for HOTS
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On October 04 2011 19:45 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 18:28 Quotidian wrote:On October 04 2011 18:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
Or give DT Cleave. From D&D Wiki: "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature." Edit: Basically gives DT a free hit if it kills the previous target (workers/marines/etc) ... You want the DT dps to double? Im not 100% sure but that might give an invisible unit the highest dps in the game. 5 seconds to clear a whole min line.....
It doesn't really double, cleave would basically allow the DT to act similar to a reaver scarab. There'll be some luck involved, as positioning the DT close enough to another drone/marine/ling for cleave to activate. However unlike the scarab, the DT is targetable with detection.
Edit: As another poster said, marauders would own reavers so hard.
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Thanks for posting! I totally agree with you!
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On October 04 2011 22:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 19:45 Squigly wrote:On October 04 2011 18:28 Quotidian wrote:On October 04 2011 18:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
Or give DT Cleave. From D&D Wiki: "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature." Edit: Basically gives DT a free hit if it kills the previous target (workers/marines/etc) ... You want the DT dps to double? Im not 100% sure but that might give an invisible unit the highest dps in the game. 5 seconds to clear a whole min line..... It doesn't really double, cleave would basically allow the DT to act similar to a reaver scarab. There'll be some luck involved, as positioning the DT close enough to another drone/marine/ling for cleave to activate. However unlike the scarab, the DT is targetable with detection. Edit: As another poster said, marauders would own reavers so hard.
I guess the Armaggeddon Tank would own everything in SC2... See what I did? I took a unit that's not in SC2, and compared its stats to units that are in SC2... Useless!
A Reaver in SC2 would have a good Scarab AI and Autobuy for them. It also might have +dmg vs light/armored and it's splash radius and fire rate might be increased/decreased, depending on the damage.
If its damage was kept the same (125 upgraded), it would oneshot a pack of stimmed marauders (and marines), which would just be completly broken in the current state of the game. (not only in TvP, but in PvP and PvZ aswell)
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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 04 2011 22:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 19:45 Squigly wrote:On October 04 2011 18:28 Quotidian wrote:On October 04 2011 18:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
Or give DT Cleave. From D&D Wiki: "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature." Edit: Basically gives DT a free hit if it kills the previous target (workers/marines/etc) ... You want the DT dps to double? Im not 100% sure but that might give an invisible unit the highest dps in the game. 5 seconds to clear a whole min line..... It doesn't really double, cleave would basically allow the DT to act similar to a reaver scarab. There'll be some luck involved, as positioning the DT close enough to another drone/marine/ling for cleave to activate. However unlike the scarab, the DT is targetable with detection. Edit: As another poster said, marauders would own reavers so hard.
Build a shuttle.. Shoot 1 scarab (range 9 or so), stimmed units run in, you pick up reaver and move it behind your army.
Note that its not like terran can build mass vikings to deal with an army that is mostly gateway units + 1 or 2 reavers...
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Main problem is that protoss is complimented far too much by the game engine itself.
EDIT: Yes I think they should buff DT"s they are not good enough atm.
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The problem is that protoss bassicly cant lose if both sides play a perfect game.
There needs to be possibility for easier tech switching for terrans like predy said.
Imho the best solution would be to join up terran upgrades under 1 tech tree like toss has it. so that when the times comes to switch to mech mid-late game your mech actually doesnt suck balls cause it is 0-0 ups 20 minutes into the game...
good day, svizcy
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On October 05 2011 00:53 Swwww wrote:
Main problem is that protoss is complimented far too much by the game engine itself.
EDIT: Yes I think they should buff DT"s they are not good enough atm.
Buff DTs? seriously? That would be like buffing the ghost.
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On October 05 2011 01:27 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 00:53 Swwww wrote:
Main problem is that protoss is complimented far too much by the game engine itself.
EDIT: Yes I think they should buff DT"s they are not good enough atm.
Buff DTs? seriously? That would be like buffing the ghost.
Nah. Buffing the ghost would be like buffing the banshee ;-)
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On October 05 2011 01:00 Svizcy wrote:
The problem is that protoss bassicly cant lose if both sides play a perfect game.
There needs to be possibility for easier tech switching for terrans like predy said.
Imho the best solution would be to join up terran upgrades under 1 tech tree like toss has it. so that when the times comes to switch to mech mid-late game your mech actually doesnt suck balls cause it is 0-0 ups 20 minutes into the game...
good day, svizcy
You want to buff terran and let them get upgrades like protoss? I am confused, because protoss is not doing well at the moment, why would you want to buff terran? Simply because you have having difficultly with them?
Also, your baseless statement protoss auto win if "both sides play perfectly" has no basis in reality. There is no such thing as a perfect game and provide no evidence to support this statement.
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United States2113 Posts
On October 05 2011 00:28 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 22:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 04 2011 19:45 Squigly wrote:On October 04 2011 18:28 Quotidian wrote:On October 04 2011 18:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
Or give DT Cleave. From D&D Wiki: "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature." Edit: Basically gives DT a free hit if it kills the previous target (workers/marines/etc) ... You want the DT dps to double? Im not 100% sure but that might give an invisible unit the highest dps in the game. 5 seconds to clear a whole min line..... It doesn't really double, cleave would basically allow the DT to act similar to a reaver scarab. There'll be some luck involved, as positioning the DT close enough to another drone/marine/ling for cleave to activate. However unlike the scarab, the DT is targetable with detection. Edit: As another poster said, marauders would own reavers so hard. Build a shuttle.. Shoot 1 scarab (range 9 or so), stimmed units run in, you pick up reaver and move it behind your army. Note that its not like terran can build mass vikings to deal with an army that is mostly gateway units + 1 or 2 reavers...
I'd definitely be down for Reaver replacing the Colossus. It'd feel like I actually had a part to play in the battle for a change. (exaggeration obv, but I'm tired of mostly just sitting there and waiting to see if you have enough)
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A reaver would be nice but its too late in the cycle to make huge changes like that.
Here is one idea I was considering, instead of removing colossi make it more like the reaver.
1. Reduce movement speed of the colossus to about 50% of what it is and increase colossus damage/reduce attack speed to beta levels.
2. Make robotics bay a lot cheaper (150/100),like it was in BW, and build faster or remove the requirement of robo bay to build colossus.
3. Optionally add an upgrade in robo bay to increase movement speed of colossus (though I am not in favor of this).
Here are the implications of this
1. Colossus no longer able to keep up with protoss army which makes it more likely to need a transport enabling interesting drop ship play. Later in game thermal lance means toss can drop a colossi behind the army and roast them a bit but it still allows for z/t armies to run away.
2. Due its speed its more likely to be sniped by vikings/corruptors which makes having large colossi numbers kinda hard to support, which means they need damage upgrade to make them worth the cost.
3. Early colossi makes 1-1-1 useless since they will take out large numbers of marines with 1 swipe (45 dmgx2). Also speed shuttles + colossi = fried workers.
It basically would be interesting to test this out and see how things play out. Toss might have problems with terran 2+ base armies but they should have templars/archons by then to take care of that.
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On October 04 2011 16:41 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
IIRC the colossus WAS initially designed in a similar way....it must've been way back in beta, I'm not even sure anymore if the propositions made it in the beta or if it was just alpha. But at some point a pretty long time ago the colossus did more damage with a higher cooldown and therefore functioned like a "mobile siegetank"....more mobile but less overall dps than a real terran tank. I honestly can't remember what the official reason was why it was reworked, maybe Blizz felt that the colossus-mobility was too high to allow for such a large initial damage
Because collosus are so mobile, they used to be able to do a lot of front loaded damage so you would just send em in for 1 shot and retreat. You could wipe out an entire bio army with just a small group of collosus in 1 shot. Now it takes a few shots.
Since collosus don't do too much "overshooting" they are better than reavers in battle and have an infite supply of ammo.
The last thing protoss needs is another unit which can be emped. I don't know what the solution is, but i don't think it's reaver.
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United States2113 Posts
On October 05 2011 01:57 darmousseh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 16:41 sleepingdog wrote:On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
IIRC the colossus WAS initially designed in a similar way....it must've been way back in beta, I'm not even sure anymore if the propositions made it in the beta or if it was just alpha. But at some point a pretty long time ago the colossus did more damage with a higher cooldown and therefore functioned like a "mobile siegetank"....more mobile but less overall dps than a real terran tank. I honestly can't remember what the official reason was why it was reworked, maybe Blizz felt that the colossus-mobility was too high to allow for such a large initial damage Because collosus are so mobile, they used to be able to do a lot of front loaded damage so you would just send em in for 1 shot and retreat. You could wipe out an entire bio army with just a small group of collosus in 1 shot. Now it takes a few shots. Since collosus don't do too much "overshooting" they are better than reavers in battle and have an infite supply of ammo. The last thing protoss needs is another unit which can be emped. I don't know what the solution is, but i don't think it's reaver.
Reaver would fucking rape 1-1-1 though. That range/splash would be invaluable vs Marines and tank-positioning would be a struggle.
Also, what makes the Reaver more susceptible to EMP than the Colossus? Didn't understand that part..
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On October 05 2011 02:02 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 01:57 darmousseh wrote:On October 04 2011 16:41 sleepingdog wrote:On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
IIRC the colossus WAS initially designed in a similar way....it must've been way back in beta, I'm not even sure anymore if the propositions made it in the beta or if it was just alpha. But at some point a pretty long time ago the colossus did more damage with a higher cooldown and therefore functioned like a "mobile siegetank"....more mobile but less overall dps than a real terran tank. I honestly can't remember what the official reason was why it was reworked, maybe Blizz felt that the colossus-mobility was too high to allow for such a large initial damage Because collosus are so mobile, they used to be able to do a lot of front loaded damage so you would just send em in for 1 shot and retreat. You could wipe out an entire bio army with just a small group of collosus in 1 shot. Now it takes a few shots. Since collosus don't do too much "overshooting" they are better than reavers in battle and have an infite supply of ammo. The last thing protoss needs is another unit which can be emped. I don't know what the solution is, but i don't think it's reaver. Reaver would fucking rape 1-1-1 though. That range/splash would be invaluable vs Marines and tank-positioning would be a struggle. Also, what makes the Reaver more susceptible to EMP than the Colossus? Didn't understand that part..
Actually now that you mention it, a reaver would be a good mid-game/harrass unit. I don't think it would solve the ball vs ball problem, but it would help in other areas. I agree with your statement.
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United States2113 Posts
On October 05 2011 02:04 darmousseh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 02:02 QTIP. wrote:On October 05 2011 01:57 darmousseh wrote:On October 04 2011 16:41 sleepingdog wrote:On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
IIRC the colossus WAS initially designed in a similar way....it must've been way back in beta, I'm not even sure anymore if the propositions made it in the beta or if it was just alpha. But at some point a pretty long time ago the colossus did more damage with a higher cooldown and therefore functioned like a "mobile siegetank"....more mobile but less overall dps than a real terran tank. I honestly can't remember what the official reason was why it was reworked, maybe Blizz felt that the colossus-mobility was too high to allow for such a large initial damage Because collosus are so mobile, they used to be able to do a lot of front loaded damage so you would just send em in for 1 shot and retreat. You could wipe out an entire bio army with just a small group of collosus in 1 shot. Now it takes a few shots. Since collosus don't do too much "overshooting" they are better than reavers in battle and have an infite supply of ammo. The last thing protoss needs is another unit which can be emped. I don't know what the solution is, but i don't think it's reaver. Reaver would fucking rape 1-1-1 though. That range/splash would be invaluable vs Marines and tank-positioning would be a struggle. Also, what makes the Reaver more susceptible to EMP than the Colossus? Didn't understand that part.. Actually now that you mention it, a reaver would be a good mid-game/harrass unit. I don't think it would solve the ball vs ball problem, but it would help in other areas. I agree with your statement.
Hmm yeah. Also, Jinro mentioned that it would push Terran away from Bio and towards Mech, which would be refreshing. The only thing I foresee as a huge problem is the Marauder. It would rape Reavers....
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I agree, the only burst splash unit the Protoss have, colossi, was nerfed.
This leaves the closest thing to a reaver drop is warp prism drop of 4 chargelots with a wave of warp-in. DTs completely fail in that department, squeezing off max of 3 kills per DT before any competent player will respond.
Edit: HT isn't really a cost effective solution compared to what a reaver & shuttle could do all game long.
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On October 05 2011 02:13 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 02:04 darmousseh wrote:On October 05 2011 02:02 QTIP. wrote:On October 05 2011 01:57 darmousseh wrote:On October 04 2011 16:41 sleepingdog wrote:On October 04 2011 12:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Replacing the colossus with the reaver would do so insanely much for the game... Would solve PvP 4 gate fest, would open up phoenix/reaver strats PvZ - reavers can actually help protoss help far flung expansions together with cannons until reinforcements come, unlike colossi - and most importantly, would make mech stronger TvP and bio weaker.
It would also let P defend vs 1-1-1 much, much more effectively.
IIRC the colossus WAS initially designed in a similar way....it must've been way back in beta, I'm not even sure anymore if the propositions made it in the beta or if it was just alpha. But at some point a pretty long time ago the colossus did more damage with a higher cooldown and therefore functioned like a "mobile siegetank"....more mobile but less overall dps than a real terran tank. I honestly can't remember what the official reason was why it was reworked, maybe Blizz felt that the colossus-mobility was too high to allow for such a large initial damage Because collosus are so mobile, they used to be able to do a lot of front loaded damage so you would just send em in for 1 shot and retreat. You could wipe out an entire bio army with just a small group of collosus in 1 shot. Now it takes a few shots. Since collosus don't do too much "overshooting" they are better than reavers in battle and have an infite supply of ammo. The last thing protoss needs is another unit which can be emped. I don't know what the solution is, but i don't think it's reaver. Reaver would fucking rape 1-1-1 though. That range/splash would be invaluable vs Marines and tank-positioning would be a struggle. Also, what makes the Reaver more susceptible to EMP than the Colossus? Didn't understand that part.. Actually now that you mention it, a reaver would be a good mid-game/harrass unit. I don't think it would solve the ball vs ball problem, but it would help in other areas. I agree with your statement. Hmm yeah. Also, Jinro mentioned that it would push Terran away from Bio and towards Mech, which would be refreshing. The only thing I foresee as a huge problem is the Marauder. It would rape Reavers....
And the shuttle trying to save the reaver would be murdered by vikings.
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United States2113 Posts
I really really really like the idea of the presence of the Reaver forcing a shift from Bio. It wouldn't get raped by Vikings, so Terran's can't just add Vikings and to their MMM ball and stay on Bio production. In regards to the threat of the Marauder, Protoss can use Warp Prism micro. God I'm so excited just thinking about this. Too bad it will never happen lol.
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EPT
