EPT[D] Terran, TvP and game-design - Page 30
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Xodushai
Sweden174 Posts
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CHOMPMannER
Canada175 Posts
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xTrim
472 Posts
And there is only ONE ONE ONE thing I want to discuss regarding the match up.... Only a couple of people mentioned Sky terran.... We know, it`s not really developed nor will it be any time soon... But for instance...... Like an ultimate transition, in a game of many many bsaes, with sensorial towers and turrets and planetaries everywhere, you`d have upgraded ship stuff because of vikings... What would happen if you, for instance put down 15 starports, a fusion core, get all your bio, load into 12 medivacs and drop 2 of them on each base, i dunno something like that, make a shitton of mules and sack svcs... then while this trade happens (drops, scvs, etc) reinforce with like 5 bcs, a couple of ravens, a shitload of banshees and some ghosts?? Is it just NOT possible? | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On October 05 2011 13:28 xTrim wrote: Ok................................... I`ve read every single page since this thread started... And there is only ONE ONE ONE thing I want to discuss regarding the match up.... Only a couple of people mentioned Sky terran.... We know, it`s not really developed nor will it be any time soon... But for instance...... Like an ultimate transition, in a game of many many bsaes, with sensorial towers and turrets and planetaries everywhere, you`d have upgraded ship stuff because of vikings... What would happen if you, for instance put down 15 starports, a fusion core, get all your bio, load into 12 medivacs and drop 2 of them on each base, i dunno something like that, make a shitton of mules and sack svcs... then while this trade happens (drops, scvs, etc) reinforce with like 5 bcs, a couple of ravens, a shitload of banshees and some ghosts?? Is it just NOT possible? It's possible, but as with all SKY strategies (like carriers, BCs and Broodlords), there's a HUGE timing window where the opposing player can just push and destroy your entire economy and half of your starports too. | ||
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ChaosWielder
United States166 Posts
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HeyJude
United States157 Posts
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On October 05 2011 04:24 Swwww wrote: I was being sarcastic. A DT with a DnD style cleave proc would literally break the game. As was I, the Colossi drop filled that role well, since turrets could target them as well, but that was nerfed. Look at all the Protoss/Terran Patches, they were specific design decisions to make bio viable by the Lead designer himself!! Thor Strike cannon nerf back to MP, Immortal range buff, ghost cost reduction, etc This thread on design decisions (add new ability, bring back old units, etc) should have been dead since page 12. Lead designer, Dustin Browder specifically wants to bio viable in TvP. Why? Who knows? Change of pace from tanks everywhere? Make SC2 like Halo wars? | ||
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Deezl
United States355 Posts
The reason they were nerfed is that Z didnt have any really good answers against them, thus limiting their options and removing strategy. But now the P matchup suffers from 'useless' tanks. Bio is the way to go, thus again limiting strategy. | ||
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Jcnorheim
United States51 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On October 05 2011 14:54 Deezl wrote: HeyJude, what you just said is a great example of strategy. With tanks, you have to choose what parts of the map you want to lock down. But they have to unsiege to move them. The reason they were nerfed is that Z didnt have any really good answers against them, thus limiting their options and removing strategy. But now the P matchup suffers from 'useless' tanks. Bio is the way to go, thus again limiting strategy. You meant Z didn't have any answers for them...on steppes of war. | ||
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Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
On October 05 2011 15:31 avilo wrote: You meant Z didn't have any answers for them...on steppes of war. Even still, 50 damage meant that way more Zerglings would die to splash. Nerfing Tanks also made Marines not shit versus Tank lines. I think Tanks just need to do the full 50 damage to shields at the very least. Zealots just take way too many hits and Archons are better siege breakers than Immortals. That or Goliaths, because Thors just don't cut it at all. Not only do they move slower than Tanks, their anti air attack is horrible against non-clumped air. | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On October 05 2011 14:40 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: As was I, the Colossi drop filled that role well, since turrets could target them as well, but that was nerfed. Look at all the Protoss/Terran Patches, they were specific design decisions to make bio viable by the Lead designer himself!! Thor Strike cannon nerf back to MP, Immortal range buff, ghost cost reduction, etc This thread on design decisions (add new ability, bring back old units, etc) should have been dead since page 12. Lead designer, Dustin Browder specifically wants to bio viable in TvP. Why? Who knows? Change of pace from tanks everywhere? Make SC2 like Halo wars? Why are you bashing Halo Wars? Have you played the game? The two are incomparable anyway. I don't know why this thread was highlighted. The OP is unfocused and has no coherent thesis. The issues being discussed were, I thought, obvious to any student of either game design or SC2-BW comparison, and you would only get the what the OP means to be saying if you already got it. At a certain point, there's no way to "solve" the perceived "problems" unless you overhaul the very initial premises. I don't know why you wouldn't address this, otherwise you're just mourning repetitively. I would have preferred much more discussion about modal units (tanks, lurkers) and how that creates a better game (opinion, possible valid point). | ||
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
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ZorBa.G
Australia279 Posts
We will just have to wait for HoTs to find out..... | ||
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
Don't blame warp gates for the shitty design of the colossus and marauder. Don't blame warp gates that tanks are too good with SC2 AI. Blizzard is trying to bring in totally new things while clinging on to the old and it's not working. Either scrap the old (or at least drastically change it) or bring in something new that COMPLEMENTS the old. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
On October 05 2011 13:28 xTrim wrote: Ok................................... I`ve read every single page since this thread started... And there is only ONE ONE ONE thing I want to discuss regarding the match up.... Only a couple of people mentioned Sky terran.... We know, it`s not really developed nor will it be any time soon... But for instance...... Like an ultimate transition, in a game of many many bsaes, with sensorial towers and turrets and planetaries everywhere, you`d have upgraded ship stuff because of vikings... What would happen if you, for instance put down 15 starports, a fusion core, get all your bio, load into 12 medivacs and drop 2 of them on each base, i dunno something like that, make a shitton of mules and sack svcs... then while this trade happens (drops, scvs, etc) reinforce with like 5 bcs, a couple of ravens, a shitload of banshees and some ghosts?? Is it just NOT possible? Sky terran play (is not viable btw, but this is not relevant for this discussion), is boring as well. Doesn't require any specific tactical mechanics like mech does. | ||
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NexCa
Germany954 Posts
On October 01 2011 06:16 Thorzain wrote: I feel that TvP IS really micro intensive. EMP everything, move your units out of storms, focus fire individual colossi with vikings and kite zealots if he's zealot heavy. And while you're kiting zealots you have to move back your ghosts so that they dont all get killed in the blink of an eye. All these things at the same time. It's freaking hard if you ask me! This, and only this | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On October 05 2011 17:49 PredY wrote: i think we can just wait till blizzcon when they reveal new hots multiplayer stuff and then we can get back to this discussion It seems like it could be a more tanky bio unit. Which is the opposite of the ideology here On October 05 2011 14:29 HeyJude wrote: The OP mentioned "tanks" being what makes Terran exciting. I feel the complete opposite. I hate tanks. They make it virtually impossible to penetrate certain areas, the only unit in the game that does that actually. A tankless sc2 would be much more exciting, but maybe that's just me. I think that's only because you don't really understand the role properly. Many people want lurkers back for the exact reason you stated. Tanks/Lurkers etc. control space and allow for dynamic play to happen because you have this support in the back allowing you to be aggressive. TvP often lands up in a 200 vs 200 dance where neither player wants to engage or do anything since they don't have this support in the back allowing them to be aggressive. A tankless SC2 just be a dancing game. | ||
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n0ise
3452 Posts
On October 05 2011 13:28 xTrim wrote: Ok................................... I`ve read every single page since this thread started... And there is only ONE ONE ONE thing I want to discuss regarding the match up.... Only a couple of people mentioned Sky terran.... We know, it`s not really developed nor will it be any time soon... But for instance...... Like an ultimate transition, in a game of many many bsaes, with sensorial towers and turrets and planetaries everywhere, you`d have upgraded ship stuff because of vikings... What would happen if you, for instance put down 15 starports, a fusion core, get all your bio, load into 12 medivacs and drop 2 of them on each base, i dunno something like that, make a shitton of mules and sack svcs... then while this trade happens (drops, scvs, etc) reinforce with like 5 bcs, a couple of ravens, a shitload of banshees and some ghosts?? Is it just NOT possible? You just described my lategame TvP. Not BCs, cos they're ridiculously slow/bad vs feedback/stalkers/everything - but 3/0 banshees are, yes, quite strong. | ||
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Tonem
Australia91 Posts
On October 05 2011 15:45 Zombo Joe wrote: Even still, 50 damage meant that way more Zerglings would die to splash. Nerfing Tanks also made Marines not shit versus Tank lines. I think Tanks just need to do the full 50 damage to shields at the very least. Zealots just take way too many hits and Archons are better siege breakers than Immortals. That or Goliaths, because Thors just don't cut it at all. Not only do they move slower than Tanks, their anti air attack is horrible against non-clumped air. I like the idea of tanks doing full 50 damage to all shields however i can see this just making the 1-1-1 way too powerful. However, if there was another upgrade that was similar cost/build time to seige mode upgrade, then this would be a very specific change that could make mech viable in TvP without affecting other match-ups! [immortals hardened shield would still come into effect, however good terrans would obviously just focus fire other units with their tanks] It wouldn't be too difficult to work this kind of upgrade into the lore either, just make some stuff up about how terran has developed these new upgraded tank shells designed specifically to penetrate protoss shields blah blah. | ||
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