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On October 06 2011 18:56 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 05:02 EnderSword wrote:
How did a Brood War > SC2 Thread, and what is basically a hidden balance whine thread become a featured post?
He acknowledges that some players simply don't play the style he's complaining about, but then says he didn't bother to check if those guys were doing well.
Whole thing seems silly, 'We only play this style....except for 1/1/1 which is dominating the scene, and mech play which I'm ignoring'
If most people wrote this, it'd just be closed.
The bioball right now is pretty successful, so there's not a lot of incentive to move away from it. There was a time when mech was almost unstoppable, and 1/1/1 shows the ability to mix bio and mech early for amazing results.
There's a lot of options here and we see more all the time, I don't think its bad design that people use viable strategies. 1-1-1 is a build order, not a play style. You can't continue to make tanks and banshees all throughout the game against a Tournament level player, eventually you will transition into lots of Marines and Marauders and Medivacs once you get to late game. Even mech will eventually have to transition into bio, because once you are on more than 2 bases your defenses will be far too weak and immobile. Which is why mech always results in 2 base timing attack, win or lose. Also a couple people have mentioned the 1-1-1 being too powerful. Tanks have a lot of dps un-sieged and that is part of the problem. When a siege tank does just as much damaged seiged as unsieged wheres the dynamics, theres no timing protoss can exploit to snipe the tanks and slow the army down. The second problem is clumping. In BW you would always get straggling units that would get sniped if you didn't pay attention to you army, this means good players could continuously harass the back of a moving army in order to weaken it and slow it down, so that by the time they reach your base they only have half the original power and you have double. The third problem is PDD (dark swarm) being available to Terran in such an early stage of the game. Dark Swarm was hive tech in BW and was only really viable after researching consume. Now you have it at Starport Tech wtf. This is coupled with the fact that Siege Tanks are already a perfect unit for controlling space. PDD is also more powerful than Dark Swarm because it can't be used against you. Dark Swarm was an ability Zerg needed to make lings and ultralisks viable lategame, why Terran has it now, I have no freaking clue.
Umm...you are pretty wrong. The root cause is that you're speaking in absolutes. Mech certainly does not always result in a 1-2 base timing... It is sustainable through the late game (very map dependant however, any map that can be split in half, Shakuras for example is a great map for mech).
I'm not going to bother talking about 1-1-1 allin, other than this small suggestion, try flanking- use your army as if they were your hands and the terran army were silly putty. Pull that shit apart in different directions. Much of the time it isn't the units you make but how you use them.
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I mostly agree with you there PredY, and I think all of us can trust in your views as you are a Grandmaster level player. TvP was one of my favourite matchups to play, but as I climbed the ladder with Terran I started to get the feeling that Protoss lategame is too strong for me. Unless I got to win the game before the Protoss had too many colossi, I was doomed. And adding HT's into the mix just makes it worse as a Terran player.
Bio is still fun to play though, and I definitely do not want to play mech vs Protoss. Hopefully Blizzard will make some informative changes with the coming of HotS.
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Marauders, fungal, warpgates, and all the pointless macro mechanics - the game would be better without them.
To clarify, anything that makes retreat impossible turns the game into 'oh Fux I lost a battle, that's game'
warpgate sucks, I like prisms but removing the ability from pylons (with a sight buff to gate units to make up for that) would improve the game.
Mules, chrono, spawn larva... do nothing to make the game more fun and make it tougher to balance. Why?
I also really miss the high ground advantage, high ground now does nothing but force a way to get vision.
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On October 06 2011 22:48 Keilah wrote:
Marauders, fungal, warpgates, and all the pointless macro mechanics - the game would be better without them.
To clarify, anything that makes retreat impossible turns the game into 'oh Fux I lost a battle, that's game'
warpgate sucks, I like prisms but removing the ability from pylons (with a sight buff to gate units to make up for that) would improve the game.
Mules, chrono, spawn larva... do nothing to make the game more fun and make it tougher to balance. Why?
I also really miss the high ground advantage, high ground now does nothing but force a way to get vision.
And how are noobs supposed to come out of a high ground contain!
*just trying to get into the Blizzard mindset here*
100% agreedy Predy
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About the topic on TvP. From an avid observer, TvP is very interesting and entertaining, i can go all the way in fact to say that I bought sc2 just because I love that matchup. Yes, I do watch broodwar TvP where its Mech Pushes. But from an observer point of view its kind of blend, its just moving tanks forward and I do not understand much of it.
Maybe Blizzard wanted to get more people to watch sc2 because fragile play is what makes it sooo nice to watch.
Mech is definitely viable, sure its not fully developed but there are players who are always adding tanks into the mix. Pure mech is a viable BUT you must stop being arrogant and think that all you need is tanks tanks and more tanks and hellions and thors. Sc2 does not work that way, Ghosts are the key to mech. Ghost Mech is a style that makes Mech viable.
I hope after this thread every T player would continue to look into Mech. But if they were to buff mech, imagine BioMech 0.0
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On October 06 2011 22:48 Keilah wrote:
Marauders, fungal, warpgates, and all the pointless macro mechanics - the game would be better without them.
To clarify, anything that makes retreat impossible turns the game into 'oh Fux I lost a battle, that's game'
warpgate sucks, I like prisms but removing the ability from pylons (with a sight buff to gate units to make up for that) would improve the game.
Mules, chrono, spawn larva... do nothing to make the game more fun and make it tougher to balance. Why?
I also really miss the high ground advantage, high ground now does nothing but force a way to get vision.
i agree with almost everything.
in addition i'd give coloxen a fully ground unit status, nerf their mobility somehow, increase their damage but nerf their attack rate.
make emp researchable and remove +25 energy research from ghosts.
give ultralisks the ability to walk over zerlings and make them a bit smaller.
make overlord speed a tier 1 upgrade.
and somehow give protoss the ability to effectively secure a 3rd expo.
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On October 07 2011 00:18 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 22:48 Keilah wrote:
Marauders, fungal, warpgates, and all the pointless macro mechanics - the game would be better without them.
To clarify, anything that makes retreat impossible turns the game into 'oh Fux I lost a battle, that's game'
warpgate sucks, I like prisms but removing the ability from pylons (with a sight buff to gate units to make up for that) would improve the game.
Mules, chrono, spawn larva... do nothing to make the game more fun and make it tougher to balance. Why?
I also really miss the high ground advantage, high ground now does nothing but force a way to get vision. i agree with almost everything. in addition i'd give coloxen a fully ground unit status, nerf their mobility somehow, increase their damage but nerf their attack rate. make emp researchable and remove +25 energy research from ghosts. give ultralisks the ability to walk over zerlings and make them a bit smaller. make overlord speed a tier 1 upgrade. and somehow give protoss the ability to effectively secure a 3rd expo.
Terrible ideas.
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On October 06 2011 21:59 captainwaffles wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 18:56 sluggaslamoo wrote:On October 04 2011 05:02 EnderSword wrote:
How did a Brood War > SC2 Thread, and what is basically a hidden balance whine thread become a featured post?
He acknowledges that some players simply don't play the style he's complaining about, but then says he didn't bother to check if those guys were doing well.
Whole thing seems silly, 'We only play this style....except for 1/1/1 which is dominating the scene, and mech play which I'm ignoring'
If most people wrote this, it'd just be closed.
The bioball right now is pretty successful, so there's not a lot of incentive to move away from it. There was a time when mech was almost unstoppable, and 1/1/1 shows the ability to mix bio and mech early for amazing results.
There's a lot of options here and we see more all the time, I don't think its bad design that people use viable strategies. 1-1-1 is a build order, not a play style. You can't continue to make tanks and banshees all throughout the game against a Tournament level player, eventually you will transition into lots of Marines and Marauders and Medivacs once you get to late game. Even mech will eventually have to transition into bio, because once you are on more than 2 bases your defenses will be far too weak and immobile. Which is why mech always results in 2 base timing attack, win or lose. Also a couple people have mentioned the 1-1-1 being too powerful. Tanks have a lot of dps un-sieged and that is part of the problem. When a siege tank does just as much damaged seiged as unsieged wheres the dynamics, theres no timing protoss can exploit to snipe the tanks and slow the army down. The second problem is clumping. In BW you would always get straggling units that would get sniped if you didn't pay attention to you army, this means good players could continuously harass the back of a moving army in order to weaken it and slow it down, so that by the time they reach your base they only have half the original power and you have double. The third problem is PDD (dark swarm) being available to Terran in such an early stage of the game. Dark Swarm was hive tech in BW and was only really viable after researching consume. Now you have it at Starport Tech wtf. This is coupled with the fact that Siege Tanks are already a perfect unit for controlling space. PDD is also more powerful than Dark Swarm because it can't be used against you. Dark Swarm was an ability Zerg needed to make lings and ultralisks viable lategame, why Terran has it now, I have no freaking clue. Umm...you are pretty wrong. The root cause is that you're speaking in absolutes. Mech certainly does not always result in a 1-2 base timing... It is sustainable through the late game ( very map dependant however, any map that can be split in half, Shakuras for example is a great map for mech). I'm not going to bother talking about 1-1-1 allin, other than this small suggestion, try flanking- use your army as if they were your hands and the terran army were silly putty. Pull that shit apart in different directions. Much of the time it isn't the units you make but how you use them.
It shouldn't be map dependent.
Statistically it doesn't make sense to be on more than 2 bases as a meching Terran, you only ever really needed 3 bases in BW TvP on Fighting Spirit of which is a very open map. Now you don't have spider-mines and siege tanks are 3 supply and Protoss has recall in mid-game practically for free, there's simply no point in having more than 2 bases because your attack will come later but Protoss will be so much more powerful.
I used to play Mech Terran against Top Master/GM Protoss's on NA. I attempted many times to play a 3 base mech but 2 base is just so much more powerful for many reasons. The point of early 3 base mech is that you use the extra-economy to come out with a more powerful timing attack without needing to harass that much if at all. Toss can get 6 bases and go carriers it doesn't really matter, you can still win in BW.
However this doesn't work in SC2, for the following reasons.
- Toss can have the same amount of bases and completely destroy you and cost-effectively.
- Because of immobility, Mech requires being able to harass very effectively with a minimal amount of units, this is usually a 1 tank 2 vulture or 4 vulture drop. However because Toss doesn't need as many bases against mech Terran, it means Toss can just surround his 3 bases with cannons. Which means you have to do very powerful drops with lots of units, only MMMVG can do this.
- Toss now has recall in early-mid game instead of lategame, recall was the bane of all Terrans in BW and it required a TON of tech. The way Terrans deal with recall these days is by putting spider mines everywhere in their main, because they are unable to move their army back in time and would simply lose otherwise. SC2 Terran does not have spidermines, if they put turrets everywhere then their timing attack will be many times weaker.
Conclusion, why go Mech when MMMVG is just so much better equipped to handle anything Protoss can do? simply there is no point going Mech unless you are just doing it for fun. But no-one is going to do that when money is on the line.
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I played mech today because of this threat.
One of my problem in MECH tvp is the mobility. I was in lost temple ( the new version, i forget always the name). I was doing masstank+marine+ghost+vicking+bunker+turret+walling with supply and i had cut the map in middle. What the toss did ? he just attack my base! T_T
I don'T know how to stop run by with slow tank. Maybe planetary fortress but honestly in lategame toss army destroy fortress in 1 sec.
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On October 07 2011 02:16 Gyro_SC2 wrote:
I played mech today because of this threat.
One of my problem in MECH tvp is the mobility. I was in lost temple ( the new version, i forget always the name). I was doing masstank+marine+ghost+vicking+bunker+turret+walling with supply and i had cut the map in middle. What the toss did ? he just attack my base! T_T
I don'T know how to stop run by with slow tank. Maybe planetary fortress but honestly in lategame toss army destroy fortress in 1 sec.
that's what i was thinking about "ground control"...
how about... hmm... sensorial towers + 2 planetaries in the runby path?? we know toss army destorys PFs in seconds, BUT!!!! thahts the needed seconds to unsiege, TRAP THE TOSS ARMY and siege in a way that toss has nowhere to go...
that's some theorycrafting
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On October 07 2011 00:18 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 22:48 Keilah wrote:
Marauders, fungal, warpgates, and all the pointless macro mechanics - the game would be better without them.
To clarify, anything that makes retreat impossible turns the game into 'oh Fux I lost a battle, that's game'
warpgate sucks, I like prisms but removing the ability from pylons (with a sight buff to gate units to make up for that) would improve the game.
Mules, chrono, spawn larva... do nothing to make the game more fun and make it tougher to balance. Why?
I also really miss the high ground advantage, high ground now does nothing but force a way to get vision. i agree with almost everything. in addition i'd give coloxen a fully ground unit status, nerf their mobility somehow, increase their damage but nerf their attack rate.
The Colossus is the only ranged mobile massive unit that deals high splash damage. (tanks arent massive and need to siege/unsiege)
The Ultralisk is only melee and requires Hive tech and the Thor has only range 7 and no splash at all.
Colossi need to be air-targetable for balance sake, otherwise mass Colossi would faceroll over any ground composition with impunity.
The damage/rate of fire should not be touched, otherwise you one shot stuff in between volleys far too easily.
On October 06 2011 22:48 Keilah wrote:
make emp researchable and remove +25 energy research from ghosts.
Colossi that cant be targetted by air plus this?
Any sort of Immortal or Colossus push would 100% finish Terran, no contest.
Snipe can only be used against Zealots and Templar (one of which is cloaked and has 120hp and the other you want to EMP) and Nukes and Cloak are far too situational.
It would also mean Ghosts would have no less than three upgrades only for the Ghost itself, which is too much.
On October 06 2011 22:48 Keilah wrote:
give ultralisks the ability to walk over zerlings and make them a bit smaller.
Ultralisk are already highly mobile, on creep they nearly have 4 speed, close to a Hellion, with 500 HP and 6 armor.
If they can walk over the lings it would make Ling/Ultra swamp anything on the ground outside of your modified Colossi deathball.
On October 06 2011 22:48 Keilah wrote:
make overlord speed a tier 1 upgrade.
Would give Zerg too much map vision early game.
Zerg already possess very powerful early map presence, giving them fast overlords from Hatch tech is not needed.
On October 06 2011 22:48 Keilah wrote:
and somehow give protoss the ability to effectively secure a 3rd expo.
Completely random statement that makes no sense.
Protoss can take a 3rd just as easily as a Terran or a Zerg.
Add in a pylon and you can warp in immediate reinforcements against any harass.
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The only change that I think would be reasonable is making emp researchable to stop the exploit of certain timings.
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On October 07 2011 02:05 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 21:59 captainwaffles wrote:On October 06 2011 18:56 sluggaslamoo wrote:On October 04 2011 05:02 EnderSword wrote:
How did a Brood War > SC2 Thread, and what is basically a hidden balance whine thread become a featured post?
He acknowledges that some players simply don't play the style he's complaining about, but then says he didn't bother to check if those guys were doing well.
Whole thing seems silly, 'We only play this style....except for 1/1/1 which is dominating the scene, and mech play which I'm ignoring'
If most people wrote this, it'd just be closed.
The bioball right now is pretty successful, so there's not a lot of incentive to move away from it. There was a time when mech was almost unstoppable, and 1/1/1 shows the ability to mix bio and mech early for amazing results.
There's a lot of options here and we see more all the time, I don't think its bad design that people use viable strategies. 1-1-1 is a build order, not a play style. You can't continue to make tanks and banshees all throughout the game against a Tournament level player, eventually you will transition into lots of Marines and Marauders and Medivacs once you get to late game. Even mech will eventually have to transition into bio, because once you are on more than 2 bases your defenses will be far too weak and immobile. Which is why mech always results in 2 base timing attack, win or lose. Also a couple people have mentioned the 1-1-1 being too powerful. Tanks have a lot of dps un-sieged and that is part of the problem. When a siege tank does just as much damaged seiged as unsieged wheres the dynamics, theres no timing protoss can exploit to snipe the tanks and slow the army down. The second problem is clumping. In BW you would always get straggling units that would get sniped if you didn't pay attention to you army, this means good players could continuously harass the back of a moving army in order to weaken it and slow it down, so that by the time they reach your base they only have half the original power and you have double. The third problem is PDD (dark swarm) being available to Terran in such an early stage of the game. Dark Swarm was hive tech in BW and was only really viable after researching consume. Now you have it at Starport Tech wtf. This is coupled with the fact that Siege Tanks are already a perfect unit for controlling space. PDD is also more powerful than Dark Swarm because it can't be used against you. Dark Swarm was an ability Zerg needed to make lings and ultralisks viable lategame, why Terran has it now, I have no freaking clue. Umm...you are pretty wrong. The root cause is that you're speaking in absolutes. Mech certainly does not always result in a 1-2 base timing... It is sustainable through the late game ( very map dependant however, any map that can be split in half, Shakuras for example is a great map for mech). I'm not going to bother talking about 1-1-1 allin, other than this small suggestion, try flanking- use your army as if they were your hands and the terran army were silly putty. Pull that shit apart in different directions. Much of the time it isn't the units you make but how you use them. It shouldn't be map dependent. Statistically it doesn't make sense to be on more than 2 bases as a meching Terran, you only ever really needed 3 bases in BW TvP on Fighting Spirit of which is a very open map. Now you don't have spider-mines and siege tanks are 3 supply and Protoss has recall in mid-game practically for free, there's simply no point in having more than 2 bases because your attack will come later but Protoss will be so much more powerful. I used to play Mech Terran against Top Master/GM Protoss's on NA. I attempted many times to play a 3 base mech but 2 base is just so much more powerful for many reasons. The point of early 3 base mech is that you use the extra-economy to come out with a more powerful timing attack without needing to harass that much if at all. Toss can get 6 bases and go carriers it doesn't really matter, you can still win in BW. However this doesn't work in SC2, for the following reasons. - Toss can have the same amount of bases and completely destroy you and cost-effectively. - Because of immobility, Mech requires being able to harass very effectively with a minimal amount of units, this is usually a 1 tank 2 vulture or 4 vulture drop. However because Toss doesn't need as many bases against mech Terran, it means Toss can just surround his 3 bases with cannons. Which means you have to do very powerful drops with lots of units, only MMMVG can do this. - Toss now has recall in early-mid game instead of lategame, recall was the bane of all Terrans in BW and it required a TON of tech. The way Terrans deal with recall these days is by putting spider mines everywhere in their main, because they are unable to move their army back in time and would simply lose otherwise. SC2 Terran does not have spidermines, if they put turrets everywhere then their timing attack will be many times weaker. Conclusion, why go Mech when MMMVG is just so much better equipped to handle anything Protoss can do? simply there is no point going Mech unless you are just doing it for fun. But no-one is going to do that when money is on the line.
True.
Those were the good old days of TvP in BW  I really wish SC2 would be some kind of similar.
Hopefully they include some kind of Vulture Mine with one of the next Addons.
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On October 07 2011 03:54 FinestHour wrote:
The only change that I think would be reasonable is making emp researchable to stop the exploit of certain timings.
How will this change do anything for mech TvP?
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Maybe Mech in tvp work only with strong timing push of 1 base or 2 base. (I would like so much to have map control with my tanks)
And terran never want to play lategame, like in general with bio. Even in BW toss are better in lategame.
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I facepalm so hard when any terran says they have a hard time dealing with protoss. Please watch TSL3 finals. Naniwa should have won, and only lost because of the marauder imbalance. Marauders were, and still are, too strong vs. warpgate units. That means any early timing attack that involves marauders will be fatal to any protoss who doesn't have godly micro or scouts for it intensely. I literally rely on seven gateways to defend a 3rax push when I do a 1gate/2gate expand. You NEED seven gateways, or six with +1 armor. If you don't have it, marauders will tear you to shreds at the 10 minute mark. Off of one base. Tell me how this is not imba?
Now I'm hearing you cry about how hard it is for terran to win in the late game? Or how bored you are of marauders? I'm bored of losing to them because they do so much damage, bro.
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I think Terran has many options, just not options that make sense against what Protoss has to make. Protoss can add some spice to the MU with alittle variance of units but for the most part it is static.
No one seems to be saying the MU isn't balanced, just that there is no variety. I think Protoss needs to be given the option to switch into something strong against bio but weak against mech. I like the idea of giving Protoss the option of a tech switch out of Warpgate that changes the attributes of already existing units, possibly even incorporating chrono boost in a different way. Not sure what those attributes would be, but it allows for the current balanced MU while allowing for alot more variety to unfold in MUs like PvT and PvP.
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The last couple of days I've been playing Terran and going marine-tank (+ a couple of ghosts) vs Protoss. It's absolutely BRUTAL. Demolishes Stalker+Colossi based armies (Immortals don't even get to shoot if Protoss leads with them, btw) for cost as far as I can tell (way less gas cost for sure). The problem of course is getting the Protoss to engage on your terms which makes this decidedly NOT n00b friendly. The other problem is getting enough tanks to be scary and securing bases (you are stupidly immobile with a tank-based army). What I'm trying to say is that in straight-up encounters I think Mech (with marine-ghost support) rapes Protoss uber-hard, but I have no idea how to make it actually work (because I'm not good enough). I think that like in broodwar, it's something that is possible but so very hard to pull off. And with the extreme power of MMM the correct way to do it might never be discovered.
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I find it bizarre that the OP claims TVP lacks unit variability. Lets take a look at the matchups:
Tvp: MMM into viking/ghost, situationally banshee and helion
Tvz: MM tank into viking/ghost, situationally banshee and helion
TVT: MM Tank or helion/tank/viking into, very rarely, raven/viking/bc/ghost odd combinations in the super late game.
Basically the same unit comps. If were talking strategical variability, I still dont get it. TVZ and TVP are replete with pressure timings, fast expansion builds, fast drops, standard push-out timings and the like. I just cant see how TVP is magically stale relative to the other match ups. It has everything the "ideal" rts match up has. The only thing it lacks, the thing the OP fixates on due to his nostalgia for the past [something I share but can have the objectivity to realize its a different game] is mech play.
Not much else to say. For all the length of his post the OP really never gets off the ground in making any sense because, as far as I can see, he just has no valid criticisms.
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Forgive a newbie if what he says is crazy, but if the problem is that the PvT matchup has no zone-control of the type provided in other matchups by the Siege Tank, does the solution actually require making the Siege Tank work, or would any means of zone-control be adequate to improve the matchup?
Because, and correct me if my understanding is flawed, but it seems that this is what Khaydarin Amulet High Templar provided, isn't it? The ability for warp-in Storms would make the Protoss very strong defensively, but because High Templar are exceedingly vulnerable, slow and incapable of prolonged combat (due to running out of energy) they cannot push as strongly as, say, Colossi. And the warping in of Pylons would be a period of vulnerability, much like Tanks sieging/unsieging, allowing for Pylon pushes.
I mean, I am just a low-Diamond newbie and understand little of such things, but that sounds reasonable to me.
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EPT
