|
On October 05 2011 01:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 01:00 Svizcy wrote:
The problem is that protoss bassicly cant lose if both sides play a perfect game.
There needs to be possibility for easier tech switching for terrans like predy said.
Imho the best solution would be to join up terran upgrades under 1 tech tree like toss has it. so that when the times comes to switch to mech mid-late game your mech actually doesnt suck balls cause it is 0-0 ups 20 minutes into the game...
good day, svizcy You want to buff terran and let them get upgrades like protoss? I am confused, because protoss is not doing well at the moment, why would you want to buff terran? Simply because you have having difficultly with them? Also, your baseless statement protoss auto win if "both sides play perfectly" has no basis in reality. There is no such thing as a perfect game and provide no evidence to support this statement.
Did you actually read the whole thread or are you just attacking me, cause your borred or sommething?
There has been a suggestion of nerfing bio multiple times in the thread, and the upgrade difference would make it possible to use more units in late game instead of just staying with bio all day long.
Yes your right about one thing, there is no such thing as perfect game, but the problem is that one race(terran) the way it is now, has to succesfully herras the other, to be able to win late game, while the other side (protoss) doesnt have to, can chose to, but doesnt have to. (see they have the possibility to chose how they want to play and terran has to go bio or die).
And i never stated that i have difficult time defeating tosses. It is my best matchup of the 3.
I hope i have been more clear this time.
good day, svizcy
|
First of I am terran and i think developing a good mech style fot TvP is very hard.
But i have developed my own and im playing top 10 master and I can say that I at least win 50% (might be even more) of my TvPs. For that style i do a litlle 2 base push likeweise Byun's but i get a raven and a Medivac to drop helions combined with a PDD ( for cannons and stalkers). Then i mostly retried and build up my maxed army. To succeed in the big ingagement i use one raven, 3 ghosts, 15-20 tanks, 3 thors and 3-6 vikings. while i push i build up a lot of turrets and barracks to get a good corner and be save against carrier.  )
|
On October 05 2011 23:56 TrOn_sc2 wrote:First of I am terran and i think developing a good mech style fot TvP is very hard. But i have developed my own and im playing top 10 master and I can say that I at least win 50% (might be even more) of my TvPs. For that style i do a litlle 2 base push likeweise Byun's but i get a raven and a Medivac to drop helions combined with a PDD ( for cannons and stalkers). Then i mostly retried and build up my maxed army. To succeed in the big ingagement i use one raven, 3 ghosts, 15-20 tanks, 3 thors and 3-6 vikings. while i push i build up a lot of turrets and barracks to get a good corner and be save against carrier. )
Against what?!
|
is anyone else offended by people complaining terran requires too much micro ohave you ever tried protoss units LOL. to the op i think part of the problem is noones experimenting with diferent styles as terran because they dont need to yet also terran could use some creative innovative players like catZ machine and tt1.
|
i mostly hit something like a lot of blink stalker
which i think are like marauders against mech in TvP in case of counter attacks and helion defense,
a couple of immos (4-6), a view zealtos which are like zerglings against mech to me in big fights and in tightness they suck,but used in mass for reinforcements
sometimes colossus and sometimes voidrays or pheonix in the combo.
and in the very late game often carrier and i switch to mass air with bc,vikings and ravens.
|
I didn't play much broodwar at all so I dont know how it was back then, but I have to say, My favorite matchup to both play and watch is tvp, and my mainrace is zerg.
|
There are some contradictions in the OP considering unit composition. First there is a complaint that there are no unit compositions for specific matchups. Later on there is a complaint about tanks not being viable in TvP and being dead if you don't use vikings against collosi.
Aren't those the specific unit compositions that do not exist in SC2 ?
Seems like you're quite a siege tank fan and want to see the tank like the TvP of BW.
Mind you I'd like to see the marauder disappear as well.....PvT will become so much easier
|
On October 06 2011 01:33 Eeevil wrote:There are some contradictions in the OP considering unit composition. First there is a complaint that there are no unit compositions for specific matchups. Later on there is a complaint about tanks not being viable in TvP and being dead if you don't use vikings against collosi. Aren't those the specific unit compositions that do not exist in SC2 ? Seems like you're quite a siege tank fan and want to see the tank like the TvP of BW. Mind you I'd like to see the marauder disappear as well.....PvT will become so much easier
Well it wouldnt just be *marauder removed* and everything would be all dandy and nice for protoss. If that were to happen terran would be needing spidermines or something to support the tanks
|
biggest problem with tvp is there are no units for terran that allow them to control space.
tanks dont count.
Either have your whole fucking army in this 1 place or else your fucked if he tries to attack while your split
|
On October 06 2011 00:45 Juanald wrote:
is anyone else offended by people complaining terran requires too much micro ohave you ever tried protoss units LOL. to the op i think part of the problem is noones experimenting with diferent styles as terran because they dont need to yet also terran could use some creative innovative players like catZ machine and tt1.
No creativity?!
Haha that's what i usually think about Protoss players. 
How about TLO, do you find him creative enough?
I'd say Terran has tons of creativity.
|
On October 01 2011 06:16 Thorzain wrote:
I feel that TvP IS really micro intensive. EMP everything, move your units out of storms, focus fire individual colossi with vikings and kite zealots if he's zealot heavy. And while you're kiting zealots you have to move back your ghosts so that they dont all get killed in the blink of an eye. All these things at the same time. It's freaking hard if you ask me!
Ghosts don't die that easily they have enough hitpoints to survive quite a few hits aswell as not taking extra damage due to being neither light or heavy and when you add in cloak it increases their survivability even more.
Compared to the high templar which has lower health(especially after a emp) will run straight into battle since it doesn't have a ranged attack like the ghosts, they have to spread hts and dodge emps which doesn't mean waiting for an emp and moving like you can with storms but pre emptively moving your hts to places you think will be safe from emp and snipe.
I could go on and on but i feel it would just be me whining about ghosts compared to HTs even more.
In short Ghosts require some micro but they're much easier units to use than hts.
|
Wtf i cant understand him. Mech is viable. Take a quit look at GoOdy but i cant understand why some terrans do not play bio. It has by far more options to kill the protoss and is more viable than mec in lategame.
|
On October 06 2011 05:55 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 00:45 Juanald wrote:
is anyone else offended by people complaining terran requires too much micro ohave you ever tried protoss units LOL. to the op i think part of the problem is noones experimenting with diferent styles as terran because they dont need to yet also terran could use some creative innovative players like catZ machine and tt1. No creativity?! Haha that's what i usually think about Protoss players. How about TLO, do you find him creative enough? I'd say Terran has tons of creativity.
well played. TLO is the most creative player, ever.
and as a random player here is how the micro works...
Terran: Ghost EMP, Kite Marines and Maruaders, Focus fire vikings
Toss: MASS STORM, (then make archons), guardian shield + FF's
so which sounds harder?
i feel like toss has to focus on micro that kills the enemy and terran is all about trying to counter the toss
|
Might be an interesting change for Vikings to be built out of the factory instead of the starport. TvP the factory is only used as a wall/add-on stamper unless your scouting with a hellion or going BFH drop. Raven would be a nice unit to have more of past early-mid game if Vikings didn't have to tie up Starport production.
|
On October 06 2011 07:45 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote:
Might be an interesting change for Vikings to be built out of the factory instead of the starport. TvP the factory is only used as a wall/add-on stamper unless your scouting with a hellion or going BFH drop. Raven would be a nice unit to have more of past early-mid game if Vikings didn't have to tie up Starport production.
Same with Warp Prisms, if colossus production didn't tie up robo production =P
All joking aside, OP makes some good discussion. I've really gotta trust people like him, that tried to make tanks work coming from a BW background, and reluctantly gave it up. I'm coming at this from the Protoss perspective, having to quell my gut instinct about siege tanks. To wit, that they're extremely effective in the 1/1/1 allin--so what kind of factors make them unsuitable for longer games where they serve as a backbone of an army? Well, Protoss's mobility with a blinkstalker response, and ability to force an allin whenever a siege tank force moves out (typically). The resources are tied up in siege tanks and marines are incapable of responding effectively to a variety of threats (unlike marauders combined with marines in MMM).
So Protoss got mobility in SC2 and the old stalwart Terran unit suffered from it, AND Protoss players using ingenuity or abuse of mobility, depending on what side you stand on. Not convinced a new role or partnership will be discovered for siege tanks until fundamentals (or just-above-fundamentals) are able to be tweaked in HOTS. I'm also not a guy in a Terran suit trying out new mech forms. I still remember Jinro mech vs. oGsMC in TvP, it hasn't been too long for it to fade away. Are we waiting for a guy in SlayerS clan or a TLO or Jinro to come up with the breakthrough timings and execution needed to pull Tanks into ships-of-the-line for the TvP army? Or are we waiting in vain? I do have some Protoss units I wish could fit more regularly into a PvT army myself. Can tanks fill a situational role in this respect? I'm gonna leave those questions out around for another couple months of no patch to really see. The next stage of evolution of TvP may be right around the corner, similar to how blue flame hellions felt fine / went unnoticed until a certain MLG, and suddenly screams and cries from all sectors.
|
On October 06 2011 06:59 MooLen wrote:
Wtf i cant understand him. Mech is viable. Take a quit look at GoOdy but i cant understand why some terrans do not play bio. It has by far more options to kill the protoss and is more viable than mec in lategame.
No, it isn't. Read the thread and ask pros yourself.
|
On October 06 2011 07:26 xlumpy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 05:55 Zorgaz wrote:On October 06 2011 00:45 Juanald wrote:
is anyone else offended by people complaining terran requires too much micro ohave you ever tried protoss units LOL. to the op i think part of the problem is noones experimenting with diferent styles as terran because they dont need to yet also terran could use some creative innovative players like catZ machine and tt1. No creativity?! Haha that's what i usually think about Protoss players. How about TLO, do you find him creative enough? I'd say Terran has tons of creativity. well played. TLO is the most creative player, ever. and as a random player here is how the micro works... Terran: Ghost EMP, Kite Marines and Maruaders, Focus fire vikings Toss: MASS STORM, (then make archons), guardian shield + FF's so which sounds harder? i feel like toss has to focus on micro that kills the enemy and terran is all about trying to counter the toss
Kind of. But the ghost acadamy costs practically nothing compared to templar archives, you don't have to get another tech building in between (twilight council), you don't have to upgrade EMP, you have the option to upgrade energy for ghosts, making you able to cast almost 2 EMPs for every 1 protoss storm, EMP has alot longer range than storm, EMP does more damage and cannot be avoided. Oh and I almost forgot... the ghost is cheaper, has more survivability, is faster and can cloak and snipe, which has longer range than feedback.
And it can actually attack.
I dunno what level you play on, but to me the ghost sounds better in theory. Avoiding damage my ass. EMP combined with stim fucking demolishes everything protoss.
Terran players are rolling and shitting all over Ps in high levels. I doubt they even practice TvP anymore. I don't understand where all this T whine is coming from O_O
Look at the terran / protoss ratio in code S.
|
I skimmed through the reading(tired and getting late), but I definitely agree with most of the points you made.
As a spectator and fan, I also wanted to point out that I enjoyed watching siegetanks/vultures in Brood War. It was much more micro intensive and positioning as well as timing were very important. Even from the lore point of view, it made more sense to me that terrans would have to exclusively use mech against a race that is superior and more technologically advanced(Protoss). Seeing the marines over and over and over in all the terran matchups is getting really dull and boring.
|
On October 06 2011 13:32 Euronyme wrote:
Terran players are rolling and shitting all over Ps in high levels. I doubt they even practice TvP anymore. I don't understand where all this T whine is coming from O_O
Look at the terran / protoss ratio in code S.
This entire thread isnt about balance. The whole point of this thread was basically pointing out the piss poor state of TvP in terms of strategical variety which leads to the same old MMMVG in almost 99% of the game (+ the same old drops, the same ol blob dancing around til the big engagement). Ok I am exaggerating due to the 1/1/1 builds (+other unorthodox builds) but regardless, the fact that MMMVG since its just so good completely stops the matchup from evolving at all.
People argue about "let the game give time" or "people will indeed make it viable" etc.. well unlike the situation BW was in when it first came out where even the basic understanding of the fundamentals for a 3 race RTS game was completely missing, SC2 is ALOT different because the fundamentals have all been laid out before us i.e. players are left to do the more easy stuff. Its so ignorant to say SC:BW and SC2 is a different game (some people go far as to say its a completely different game) when the core of SC2 is based on SC:BW. I mean its STARCRAFT. They would have slapped something else if it was a completely new game. Going back to the state of TvP, you can see no one feels the need of going out of the norm and playing a different style other than MMMVG. There is NO need + the icying on the cake is that mech is NOT viable in TvP and barely holds a candle to MMMVG.
Alot of T players wants to bring back tanks being viable (ala mech being viable) because it brings back the sort of dynamics that make TvP so much more interesting (and alots more depth) due to the unit being able to zone control (something that made BW games alot more fun when spectating due to the tensions and strategies it brought out). The whole matchup for Terran AND i believe for Protoss becomes much much more strategical + alot of pros for spectators.
Like for example:
-Unit positioning requires actual thought (much more depth compared to MMMVG). Both for T and P since the wrong angle or flank could have an entire P army evaporate OR completely catch off the T etc, it creates tension. +1 for spectators, +1 for rewarding players who fight strategically by effectively using the map terrain.
-Fights last longer and continual fights can happen since T has to siege/unsiege + repositioning while P gathers for another attack. No more landslide victories resulting in the game being over unless its at the very end of a 50min game.
-Map control requires thought. Since T is immobile and P mobile, we see ways for both to cover up its weakness (T) + abuse its strength (P). Brings more depth to TvP as we see players finding ways to limiting each others strength instead of trying to outdo one's total DPS.
-Still as micro intensive but more than just unit micro. Positioning of tanks, hellions, knowing when to siege and unsiege etc, I also think P will have to start microing there units to avoid as less splash as possible when rushing into the tank lines or defend positions. Hell even warp prism drops during the attack on tanks could be entertaining to watch.
-It will bring P to use a variety of different units and new builds, for instance carriers when used vs mech can be really good. Motherships might be used like an arbiter, it makes the P players come up with ways either punch through the tank line (Reminds me of the nada/jangbi game where mass storms, stasis fields punched through a heavily fortified tank line) or abuse its immobility by going around etc.
Simply put short, it brings more depth to the matchup compared to what it is now which is pretty much the same thing over and over again. But if mech was to be viable, along with BIO it opens up so much potential to a dull, grey matchup that i think could be more than what it is now. It also opens up potentially new builds for P who doesn't have to either all in or go cols/HTs every game due to bio.
|
On October 04 2011 05:02 EnderSword wrote:
How did a Brood War > SC2 Thread, and what is basically a hidden balance whine thread become a featured post?
He acknowledges that some players simply don't play the style he's complaining about, but then says he didn't bother to check if those guys were doing well.
Whole thing seems silly, 'We only play this style....except for 1/1/1 which is dominating the scene, and mech play which I'm ignoring'
If most people wrote this, it'd just be closed.
The bioball right now is pretty successful, so there's not a lot of incentive to move away from it. There was a time when mech was almost unstoppable, and 1/1/1 shows the ability to mix bio and mech early for amazing results.
There's a lot of options here and we see more all the time, I don't think its bad design that people use viable strategies.
1-1-1 is a build order, not a play style. You can't continue to make tanks and banshees all throughout the game against a Tournament level player, eventually you will transition into lots of Marines and Marauders and Medivacs once you get to late game. Even mech will eventually have to transition into bio, because once you are on more than 2 bases your defenses will be far too weak and immobile. Which is why mech always results in 2 base timing attack, win or lose.
Also a couple people have mentioned the 1-1-1 being too powerful. Tanks have a lot of dps un-sieged and that is part of the problem. When a siege tank does just as much damaged seiged as unsieged wheres the dynamics, theres no timing protoss can exploit to snipe the tanks and slow the army down.
The second problem is clumping. In BW you would always get straggling units that would get sniped if you didn't pay attention to you army, this means good players could continuously harass the back of a moving army in order to weaken it and slow it down, so that by the time they reach your base they only have half the original power and you have double.
The third problem is PDD (dark swarm) being available to Terran in such an early stage of the game. Dark Swarm was hive tech in BW and was only really viable after researching consume. Now you have it at Starport Tech wtf. This is coupled with the fact that Siege Tanks are already a perfect unit for controlling space. PDD is also more powerful than Dark Swarm because it can't be used against you.
Dark Swarm was an ability Zerg needed to make lings and ultralisks viable lategame, why Terran has it now, I have no freaking clue.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
