EPT
On May 16 2012 00:11 saaaa wrote:
In fact you suggest mech+ghost in the midgame and not BC? I feel it's safer to have a huge tank+hellion+banshee count and then transition into BC and on 4/5 Base adding ghosts.
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2012 07:56 Blazinghand wrote:
In my experience, Mech is totally viable in TvP all the way up to low Master league without it inhibiting you in any meaningful way. Once Protosses start getting smarter you find yourself putting a lot more effort into winning with mech than you would with bio. The reason you need ghosts are for 4 purposes:
1) EMP is vital against hardened shields
2) EMP is useful against Archons, which are tanky non-armored non-light units
3) EMP brutalizes HTs, which are powerful against immobile tanks, stacks of air units, and any energy units you may have like banshees, ravens, etc
4) EMP also hits air units above ground units, providing useful splash damage.
Even just a few ghosts can make a huge difference. Once you're on 3 bases I highly recommend adding a couple.
In terms of adding BCs, you need to be careful not to leave yourself too vulnerable to some sort of huge zealot walkby since BCs have limited mobility and can't control ground space like hellion/tank can.
On May 15 2012 03:58 saaaa wrote:
Can you explain these most valid responses? Maybe you have replays, where you lost to this kind?
You suggest only going ghost+mech and not just mech+BC in the midgame and add ghosts later on?
On May 14 2012 05:36 Starshaped wrote:
I've played mech TvP at high master level for a very long time, I know what I'm talking about. There is simply no case to be made for lategame mech TvP. You can play it, and you can win with it, I even think TvP is my best win% overall, but it doesn't matter. You rely too much on gimmicks and on your opponent being bad. Against a player who knows what to do against mech (and trust me, there are about 500 valid responses) you simply will not win. Of course, there are some maps where it's alright, but for the most part you'll be playing with a big disadvantage if you go mech in TvP.
Also, if you're going to go mech, always go ghost-mech. Don't do the no-ghost stuff this guy is writing about, lol.
I know mech can feel really strong when you get these really one-sided wins, but you must understand that it's only because your opponent doesn't know what he's doing >_>
Play mech if you want, but don't for a second think it's strong or solid in TvP. I've learned that the hard way.
On May 14 2012 05:05 saaaa wrote:
you should watch this thread with his replays inside and you will have another opionion. I include in "mech" also BC, Banshee and Ravens... and a mix out of Tanks, Hellion, Thors, BC, Raven, Banshees is mindblowing believe me.
here ist the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003
On May 14 2012 04:36 Starshaped wrote:
It's the exact opposite. It doesn't matter how well you play mech vs Protoss, it will always come down to whether or not your opponent makes big mistakes or doesn't know what to do. Protoss won't usually all-in against mech, but if they feel like it they can just go blinkstalker/collo and destroy you since you cannot possibly deal with that kind of mobility (though there are a few maps where it's easier to defend).
The biggest problem with mech against Protoss, besides the immobility, is that you can almost never trade armies effectively. Protoss can literally a-move into your sieged position and trade fairly well.
Bottom line is that if you won with macro mech against Protoss, it was because your opponent let you.
On May 14 2012 02:03 saaaa wrote:
i am plat and i win against master players fairly easy at the moment. if you play mech right there is no way to loose it.. you can only loose if you do terrible mistakes -> If you play a nearly perfect game and its 100% a win. In TvP you can hold all hard all-ins which can the protoss execute really easy. But Mech in TvT and TvZ is way easier in my opinion because you don't need your whole army to defend attacks but in TvP you need every tank in the right place.
I never saw Polt played Mech in TvZ only Tank+Bio :/
On May 14 2012 01:19 Starshaped wrote:
Nobody good goes mech in TvP, at least not seriously, since it's just suicide. I personally do it, but only because my computer is too bad for me to go bio. Just trust me, stay away from mech TvP unless you want to be frustrated to no end. 2base mech all-ins are alright, but macro mech is just handing the win to your opponent (if he's smart), with rare exceptions depending on map.
Polt has an excellent TvZ mech, which I highly recommend. Rainbow does some nice mech all-ins. ForGG does some good mech all-ins as well.
Mech in TvT is really common, so you can watch any good Terran to see it. I suppose Goody is the classic example, but he opens up too gimmicky for my taste most of the time.
If you don't mind watching "lesser" players, Avilo (NA Terran) plays mech a lot in TvT and TvZ, very macro-oriented and passive.
Nobody good goes mech in TvP, at least not seriously, since it's just suicide. I personally do it, but only because my computer is too bad for me to go bio. Just trust me, stay away from mech TvP unless you want to be frustrated to no end. 2base mech all-ins are alright, but macro mech is just handing the win to your opponent (if he's smart), with rare exceptions depending on map.
Polt has an excellent TvZ mech, which I highly recommend. Rainbow does some nice mech all-ins. ForGG does some good mech all-ins as well.
Mech in TvT is really common, so you can watch any good Terran to see it. I suppose Goody is the classic example, but he opens up too gimmicky for my taste most of the time.
If you don't mind watching "lesser" players, Avilo (NA Terran) plays mech a lot in TvT and TvZ, very macro-oriented and passive.
i am plat and i win against master players fairly easy at the moment. if you play mech right there is no way to loose it.. you can only loose if you do terrible mistakes -> If you play a nearly perfect game and its 100% a win. In TvP you can hold all hard all-ins which can the protoss execute really easy. But Mech in TvT and TvZ is way easier in my opinion because you don't need your whole army to defend attacks but in TvP you need every tank in the right place.
I never saw Polt played Mech in TvZ only Tank+Bio :/
It's the exact opposite. It doesn't matter how well you play mech vs Protoss, it will always come down to whether or not your opponent makes big mistakes or doesn't know what to do. Protoss won't usually all-in against mech, but if they feel like it they can just go blinkstalker/collo and destroy you since you cannot possibly deal with that kind of mobility (though there are a few maps where it's easier to defend).
The biggest problem with mech against Protoss, besides the immobility, is that you can almost never trade armies effectively. Protoss can literally a-move into your sieged position and trade fairly well.
Bottom line is that if you won with macro mech against Protoss, it was because your opponent let you.
you should watch this thread with his replays inside and you will have another opionion. I include in "mech" also BC, Banshee and Ravens... and a mix out of Tanks, Hellion, Thors, BC, Raven, Banshees is mindblowing believe me.
here ist the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003
I've played mech TvP at high master level for a very long time, I know what I'm talking about. There is simply no case to be made for lategame mech TvP. You can play it, and you can win with it, I even think TvP is my best win% overall, but it doesn't matter. You rely too much on gimmicks and on your opponent being bad. Against a player who knows what to do against mech (and trust me, there are about 500 valid responses) you simply will not win. Of course, there are some maps where it's alright, but for the most part you'll be playing with a big disadvantage if you go mech in TvP.
Also, if you're going to go mech, always go ghost-mech. Don't do the no-ghost stuff this guy is writing about, lol.
I know mech can feel really strong when you get these really one-sided wins, but you must understand that it's only because your opponent doesn't know what he's doing >_>
Play mech if you want, but don't for a second think it's strong or solid in TvP. I've learned that the hard way.
Can you explain these most valid responses? Maybe you have replays, where you lost to this kind?
You suggest only going ghost+mech and not just mech+BC in the midgame and add ghosts later on?
In my experience, Mech is totally viable in TvP all the way up to low Master league without it inhibiting you in any meaningful way. Once Protosses start getting smarter you find yourself putting a lot more effort into winning with mech than you would with bio. The reason you need ghosts are for 4 purposes:
1) EMP is vital against hardened shields
2) EMP is useful against Archons, which are tanky non-armored non-light units
3) EMP brutalizes HTs, which are powerful against immobile tanks, stacks of air units, and any energy units you may have like banshees, ravens, etc
4) EMP also hits air units above ground units, providing useful splash damage.
Even just a few ghosts can make a huge difference. Once you're on 3 bases I highly recommend adding a couple.
In terms of adding BCs, you need to be careful not to leave yourself too vulnerable to some sort of huge zealot walkby since BCs have limited mobility and can't control ground space like hellion/tank can.
In fact you suggest mech+ghost in the midgame and not BC? I feel it's safer to have a huge tank+hellion+banshee count and then transition into BC and on 4/5 Base adding ghosts.
I categorically recommend ghosts in TvP.
