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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
How do you Terrans reinforce your army?
Gold league player here:
So at 10 min mark I move out my mighty MMM army towards my opponents base. At this point where do I rally all my production facilities?
1. Near the opponent base?
2. On one of the units in my MMM army?
3. Don't change rally point, go back to base and get more army if you need to?
Thing is it gets messy during battle. I can't find a comfortable/good way of reinforcing.
This is what I do most of the time:
1. While moving out the MMM army put a rally point on a "comfortable" place on the map for example a Xel Naga Tower.
2. From time to time click on the minimap on the Xel Naga Tower, box the units, press shift-1 to add them to the control group of my main army, click on the minimap at the location where my main army is and the press 1 and A-move (yeah I A-move  )
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I have alot of trouble transitioning from 1rax fe to defend from protoss blink stalker allin, anyone got any replays that could help me?
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Hi TL Terrans.
After patch 1.4.3 i had lot of troubles dealing with Queens totally raping my hellions. I've read that Morrow find hellions still viable in this matchup. I ask you to provide me a replay (or a video) showing how to "go mass hellions" and still make econo damages (this before Z goes roaches and make your hellions like cookies for CookieMonster).
Please help me...
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On May 14 2012 07:02 SgtJoKeR wrote:
Hey guys!
I'm trying to find new builds to play againts zergs because I feel that they are almost dead and don't serve as many uses as before.
MorroW said that the hellions served a lot of purpose but they are useful for the few purpose they have left. That is true. But I want a build that works very good at the very new state of the game.
I was wondering about the pros/cons of a good 1 rax FE into 1-1-1 marine-hellion elevator push?
If anyone could help me out on this!
Thanks!
SgtJoKeR
Just do what most korean T do on ladder : 1rax Fe into 1-1-1 hellion/cloackshee:
You can survive to a ling/bling bust
You can outright win the game with the banshees.
You deny the third base.
You transition either into mech or marine/tank. If you're interested pm me and I upload a replay from Polt, it's with the last patch but the build is the same anyway.
Another build which is really good atm is 2fac bfh. Because 10+ hellions don't give a fuck about queens and zerglings, and zergs are really, really greedy right now. Tho it's hard to transition into something else than mech.
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On May 14 2012 18:05 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 07:02 SgtJoKeR wrote:
Hey guys!
I'm trying to find new builds to play againts zergs because I feel that they are almost dead and don't serve as many uses as before.
MorroW said that the hellions served a lot of purpose but they are useful for the few purpose they have left. That is true. But I want a build that works very good at the very new state of the game.
I was wondering about the pros/cons of a good 1 rax FE into 1-1-1 marine-hellion elevator push?
If anyone could help me out on this!
Thanks!
SgtJoKeR Just do what most korean T do on ladder : 1rax Fe into 1-1-1 hellion/cloackshee: You can survive to a ling/bling bust You can outright win the game with the banshees. You deny the third base. You transition either into mech or marine/tank. If you're interested pm me and I upload a replay from Polt, it's with the last patch but the build is the same anyway. Another build which is really good atm is 2fac bfh. Because 10+ hellions don't give a fuck about queens and zerglings, and zergs are really, really greedy right now. Tho it's hard to transition into something else than mech.
Tnx a lot... I always go mech vZ (or at least i try) (EU plat here). But what should be timing for theese 10 BFHs to attack? I ask this to understand what could happend while you're massing BFH... (counter mass roaches, mutas???).
tnx again
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On May 14 2012 18:18 Doganaws wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 18:05 sAsImre wrote:On May 14 2012 07:02 SgtJoKeR wrote:
Hey guys!
I'm trying to find new builds to play againts zergs because I feel that they are almost dead and don't serve as many uses as before.
MorroW said that the hellions served a lot of purpose but they are useful for the few purpose they have left. That is true. But I want a build that works very good at the very new state of the game.
I was wondering about the pros/cons of a good 1 rax FE into 1-1-1 marine-hellion elevator push?
If anyone could help me out on this!
Thanks!
SgtJoKeR Just do what most korean T do on ladder : 1rax Fe into 1-1-1 hellion/cloackshee: You can survive to a ling/bling bust You can outright win the game with the banshees. You deny the third base. You transition either into mech or marine/tank. If you're interested pm me and I upload a replay from Polt, it's with the last patch but the build is the same anyway. Another build which is really good atm is 2fac bfh. Because 10+ hellions don't give a fuck about queens and zerglings, and zergs are really, really greedy right now. Tho it's hard to transition into something else than mech. Tnx a lot... I always go mech vZ (or at least i try) (EU plat here). But what should be timing for theese 10 BFHs to attack? I ask this to understand what could happend while you're massing BFH... (counter mass roaches, mutas???). tnx again
Just to be sure you do a 1rax FE into double gaz, double fac. Reactor then tech lab on the rax.
You start blue flame asap and produce non stop hellion (and scvs of course :p)
I used to poke with 4 hellions and still do it but repair them, kill as many creep tumor as possible and don't lose those hellions.
When blue flame finish, scan if there is a ramp and go in. Just runby the queen/spines and zergling. If there is a lot of zerglings or some blings, deny the third. If you see roaches just withdraw and try to guess if he's doing a roach/bling all in.
Whenever you can add a 3rd fact, an armory and start thor production, at least two. You get your third, either a PF or an OC and then add 2more facts and you're well prepared for a macro hatch.
Mutas would never be out in time and if he's 2hatching greedily into mutas you kill all his drones, gg wp.
If you scout roaches you might want to cancel blue flame and start a siege tank + siege mode immediately, then follow your normal plan.
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Has anyone experimented with using reapers past the early game?
What i had in mind was basically using an 8 reaper hit squad in combination with a medivac for harrasment and sniping tech/ workers. They tear through workers and building so fast that if your opponent is out of position or doesn't react quickly enough you can decimate his mineral line and/or snipe key structures and get out before the opponent can do anything about it.
The main downside i can see is the build time/gas cost. But if you are going Bio you usually have spare gas anyways. I think if you are efficient with your reapers and treat them like infestors (i.e. don't let them die) it might be worth it. But then again in order to be efficient with them it requires you to keep and eye on them and a lot of micro.
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On May 14 2012 05:36 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 05:05 saaaa wrote:On May 14 2012 04:36 Starshaped wrote:On May 14 2012 02:03 saaaa wrote:On May 14 2012 01:19 Starshaped wrote:
Nobody good goes mech in TvP, at least not seriously, since it's just suicide. I personally do it, but only because my computer is too bad for me to go bio. Just trust me, stay away from mech TvP unless you want to be frustrated to no end. 2base mech all-ins are alright, but macro mech is just handing the win to your opponent (if he's smart), with rare exceptions depending on map.
Polt has an excellent TvZ mech, which I highly recommend. Rainbow does some nice mech all-ins. ForGG does some good mech all-ins as well.
Mech in TvT is really common, so you can watch any good Terran to see it. I suppose Goody is the classic example, but he opens up too gimmicky for my taste most of the time.
If you don't mind watching "lesser" players, Avilo (NA Terran) plays mech a lot in TvT and TvZ, very macro-oriented and passive. i am plat and i win against master players fairly easy at the moment. if you play mech right there is no way to loose it.. you can only loose if you do terrible mistakes -> If you play a nearly perfect game and its 100% a win. In TvP you can hold all hard all-ins which can the protoss execute really easy. But Mech in TvT and TvZ is way easier in my opinion because you don't need your whole army to defend attacks but in TvP you need every tank in the right place. I never saw Polt played Mech in TvZ only Tank+Bio :/ It's the exact opposite. It doesn't matter how well you play mech vs Protoss, it will always come down to whether or not your opponent makes big mistakes or doesn't know what to do. Protoss won't usually all-in against mech, but if they feel like it they can just go blinkstalker/collo and destroy you since you cannot possibly deal with that kind of mobility (though there are a few maps where it's easier to defend). The biggest problem with mech against Protoss, besides the immobility, is that you can almost never trade armies effectively. Protoss can literally a-move into your sieged position and trade fairly well. Bottom line is that if you won with macro mech against Protoss, it was because your opponent let you. you should watch this thread with his replays inside and you will have another opionion. I include in "mech" also BC, Banshee and Ravens... and a mix out of Tanks, Hellion, Thors, BC, Raven, Banshees is mindblowing believe me. here ist the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003 I've played mech TvP at high master level for a very long time, I know what I'm talking about. There is simply no case to be made for lategame mech TvP. You can play it, and you can win with it, I even think TvP is my best win% overall, but it doesn't matter. You rely too much on gimmicks and on your opponent being bad. Against a player who knows what to do against mech (and trust me, there are about 500 valid responses) you simply will not win. Of course, there are some maps where it's alright, but for the most part you'll be playing with a big disadvantage if you go mech in TvP. Also, if you're going to go mech, always go ghost-mech. Don't do the no-ghost stuff this guy is writing about, lol. I know mech can feel really strong when you get these really one-sided wins, but you must understand that it's only because your opponent doesn't know what he's doing >_> Play mech if you want, but don't for a second think it's strong or solid in TvP. I've learned that the hard way.
Can you explain these most valid responses? Maybe you have replays, where you lost to this kind?
You suggest only going ghost+mech and not just mech+BC in the midgame and add ghosts later on?
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How do you win TvZ with the recent zerg buffs? Hellion and reaper harass is utterly useless so you cannot do eco damage -.-
and playing vs an un-harassed zerg mid-lategame is ridiculous
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Blazinghand
United States25553 Posts
On May 15 2012 03:58 saaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 05:36 Starshaped wrote:On May 14 2012 05:05 saaaa wrote:On May 14 2012 04:36 Starshaped wrote:On May 14 2012 02:03 saaaa wrote:On May 14 2012 01:19 Starshaped wrote:
Nobody good goes mech in TvP, at least not seriously, since it's just suicide. I personally do it, but only because my computer is too bad for me to go bio. Just trust me, stay away from mech TvP unless you want to be frustrated to no end. 2base mech all-ins are alright, but macro mech is just handing the win to your opponent (if he's smart), with rare exceptions depending on map.
Polt has an excellent TvZ mech, which I highly recommend. Rainbow does some nice mech all-ins. ForGG does some good mech all-ins as well.
Mech in TvT is really common, so you can watch any good Terran to see it. I suppose Goody is the classic example, but he opens up too gimmicky for my taste most of the time.
If you don't mind watching "lesser" players, Avilo (NA Terran) plays mech a lot in TvT and TvZ, very macro-oriented and passive. i am plat and i win against master players fairly easy at the moment. if you play mech right there is no way to loose it.. you can only loose if you do terrible mistakes -> If you play a nearly perfect game and its 100% a win. In TvP you can hold all hard all-ins which can the protoss execute really easy. But Mech in TvT and TvZ is way easier in my opinion because you don't need your whole army to defend attacks but in TvP you need every tank in the right place. I never saw Polt played Mech in TvZ only Tank+Bio :/ It's the exact opposite. It doesn't matter how well you play mech vs Protoss, it will always come down to whether or not your opponent makes big mistakes or doesn't know what to do. Protoss won't usually all-in against mech, but if they feel like it they can just go blinkstalker/collo and destroy you since you cannot possibly deal with that kind of mobility (though there are a few maps where it's easier to defend). The biggest problem with mech against Protoss, besides the immobility, is that you can almost never trade armies effectively. Protoss can literally a-move into your sieged position and trade fairly well. Bottom line is that if you won with macro mech against Protoss, it was because your opponent let you. you should watch this thread with his replays inside and you will have another opionion. I include in "mech" also BC, Banshee and Ravens... and a mix out of Tanks, Hellion, Thors, BC, Raven, Banshees is mindblowing believe me. here ist the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003 I've played mech TvP at high master level for a very long time, I know what I'm talking about. There is simply no case to be made for lategame mech TvP. You can play it, and you can win with it, I even think TvP is my best win% overall, but it doesn't matter. You rely too much on gimmicks and on your opponent being bad. Against a player who knows what to do against mech (and trust me, there are about 500 valid responses) you simply will not win. Of course, there are some maps where it's alright, but for the most part you'll be playing with a big disadvantage if you go mech in TvP. Also, if you're going to go mech, always go ghost-mech. Don't do the no-ghost stuff this guy is writing about, lol. I know mech can feel really strong when you get these really one-sided wins, but you must understand that it's only because your opponent doesn't know what he's doing >_> Play mech if you want, but don't for a second think it's strong or solid in TvP. I've learned that the hard way. Can you explain these most valid responses? Maybe you have replays, where you lost to this kind? You suggest only going ghost+mech and not just mech+BC in the midgame and add ghosts later on?
In my experience, Mech is totally viable in TvP all the way up to low Master league without it inhibiting you in any meaningful way. Once Protosses start getting smarter you find yourself putting a lot more effort into winning with mech than you would with bio. The reason you need ghosts are for 4 purposes:
1) EMP is vital against hardened shields
2) EMP is useful against Archons, which are tanky non-armored non-light units
3) EMP brutalizes HTs, which are powerful against immobile tanks, stacks of air units, and any energy units you may have like banshees, ravens, etc
4) EMP also hits air units above ground units, providing useful splash damage.
Even just a few ghosts can make a huge difference. Once you're on 3 bases I highly recommend adding a couple.
In terms of adding BCs, you need to be careful not to leave yourself too vulnerable to some sort of huge zealot walkby since BCs have limited mobility and can't control ground space like hellion/tank can.
On May 15 2012 07:41 Pulimuli wrote:
How do you win TvZ with the recent zerg buffs? Hellion and reaper harass is utterly useless so you cannot do eco damage -.-
and playing vs an un-harassed zerg mid-lategame is ridiculous
So I've been doing two different things:
1) Accept my hellions won't do anything but deny SOME creep tumors and the third base. I open with a 1 rax FE -> Reactor hellions, which is substantially better/greedier than a reactor hellion -> expo. Typically you'll have more trouble containing creep spread but you can keep it somewhat under control and still deny the third base, which is really the crucial thing.
2) Make more hellions. In this case I open with a reactor hellion expo, and make many, many hellions (only showing 6) in anticipation of doing a monster marauder/hellion push off 2 base or a full mech push off 2.5 bases.
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Hi TL!
Can you hold roach-ling-bling all-ins with Thorzain's TvZ? Or is it considered to be a "macro cheese"
The build where you get a gas on 15 then a cc following it up with a factory and then a third cc at around 19 supply?
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Hello again. What is the best way to fight ling infestor turtle style? (Other then drops if possible)
Ive been thinking about swapping out the 2 factories with techlabs for 2 rax with reactors and go for a marine marauder BFH combination with light tank support. Anyone experimented with this/found success?
And what about sprinkling in ghosts or is that just dead nowadays?
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Blazinghand
United States25553 Posts
On May 15 2012 08:42 SgtJoKeR wrote:
Hi TL!
Can you hold roach-ling-bling all-ins with Thorzain's TvZ? Or is it considered to be a "macro cheese"
The build where you get a gas on 15 then a cc following it up with a factory and then a third cc at around 19 supply?
the 2-base roach/bane all-in is really hard to hold with the quick third base. Basically it comes down to "you kinda have to see/know/sense it's coming" by seeing how much gas he mines using your scouting scv. If you see him mine more than 100 gas you shouldn't go for the quick 3rd CC unless you have balls of steel. Make a secondary wall of bunkers and pray to whatever deity you believe in.
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so frustrated vs zerg atm. I open 4 hellion into the 2 medivac 10 or 12 rines pressure...
I had 4 zergs in a row blindly mass roaches last night, absolutely flatten me.
I am not used to having to scan before 9 minutes, but now it seems I have to scan at 6 to check tech??? and if they hide the tech at expo, im fucked??
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On May 15 2012 07:41 Pulimuli wrote:
How do you win TvZ with the recent zerg buffs? Hellion and reaper harass is utterly useless so you cannot do eco damage -.-
and playing vs an un-harassed zerg mid-lategame is ridiculous
I go with more hellions! =)
Build I do (not a BO)
1 rax expo
double gas
double factory bf hellions
Starport
I get a really high hellion count up. And start attacking with them. 12 bf hellions don't really care about the queens and zerglings. Out of the starport I get one medivac. If the zerg has his ramp blocked you can drop hellions in the main and draw the queens away from the ramp. Then run in the front with the rest of the hellions.
Downside is you almost have to go mech after.
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I'm struggling with really lategame v P. I know that's what EVERYONE is struggling with, but i felt like my 3/3 MMM + Tanks did almost nothing to the deathball, even when i got a free colossus kill before engaging  Would ghosts have helped? Or like... BC's? I mean we're talking as many bases as I want, I could make anything i wanted since he wasn't pressuring at all.
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On May 15 2012 07:56 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 03:58 saaaa wrote:On May 14 2012 05:36 Starshaped wrote:On May 14 2012 05:05 saaaa wrote:On May 14 2012 04:36 Starshaped wrote:On May 14 2012 02:03 saaaa wrote:On May 14 2012 01:19 Starshaped wrote:
Nobody good goes mech in TvP, at least not seriously, since it's just suicide. I personally do it, but only because my computer is too bad for me to go bio. Just trust me, stay away from mech TvP unless you want to be frustrated to no end. 2base mech all-ins are alright, but macro mech is just handing the win to your opponent (if he's smart), with rare exceptions depending on map.
Polt has an excellent TvZ mech, which I highly recommend. Rainbow does some nice mech all-ins. ForGG does some good mech all-ins as well.
Mech in TvT is really common, so you can watch any good Terran to see it. I suppose Goody is the classic example, but he opens up too gimmicky for my taste most of the time.
If you don't mind watching "lesser" players, Avilo (NA Terran) plays mech a lot in TvT and TvZ, very macro-oriented and passive. i am plat and i win against master players fairly easy at the moment. if you play mech right there is no way to loose it.. you can only loose if you do terrible mistakes -> If you play a nearly perfect game and its 100% a win. In TvP you can hold all hard all-ins which can the protoss execute really easy. But Mech in TvT and TvZ is way easier in my opinion because you don't need your whole army to defend attacks but in TvP you need every tank in the right place. I never saw Polt played Mech in TvZ only Tank+Bio :/ It's the exact opposite. It doesn't matter how well you play mech vs Protoss, it will always come down to whether or not your opponent makes big mistakes or doesn't know what to do. Protoss won't usually all-in against mech, but if they feel like it they can just go blinkstalker/collo and destroy you since you cannot possibly deal with that kind of mobility (though there are a few maps where it's easier to defend). The biggest problem with mech against Protoss, besides the immobility, is that you can almost never trade armies effectively. Protoss can literally a-move into your sieged position and trade fairly well. Bottom line is that if you won with macro mech against Protoss, it was because your opponent let you. you should watch this thread with his replays inside and you will have another opionion. I include in "mech" also BC, Banshee and Ravens... and a mix out of Tanks, Hellion, Thors, BC, Raven, Banshees is mindblowing believe me. here ist the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003 I've played mech TvP at high master level for a very long time, I know what I'm talking about. There is simply no case to be made for lategame mech TvP. You can play it, and you can win with it, I even think TvP is my best win% overall, but it doesn't matter. You rely too much on gimmicks and on your opponent being bad. Against a player who knows what to do against mech (and trust me, there are about 500 valid responses) you simply will not win. Of course, there are some maps where it's alright, but for the most part you'll be playing with a big disadvantage if you go mech in TvP. Also, if you're going to go mech, always go ghost-mech. Don't do the no-ghost stuff this guy is writing about, lol. I know mech can feel really strong when you get these really one-sided wins, but you must understand that it's only because your opponent doesn't know what he's doing >_> Play mech if you want, but don't for a second think it's strong or solid in TvP. I've learned that the hard way. Can you explain these most valid responses? Maybe you have replays, where you lost to this kind? You suggest only going ghost+mech and not just mech+BC in the midgame and add ghosts later on? In my experience, Mech is totally viable in TvP all the way up to low Master league without it inhibiting you in any meaningful way. Once Protosses start getting smarter you find yourself putting a lot more effort into winning with mech than you would with bio. The reason you need ghosts are for 4 purposes: 1) EMP is vital against hardened shields 2) EMP is useful against Archons, which are tanky non-armored non-light units 3) EMP brutalizes HTs, which are powerful against immobile tanks, stacks of air units, and any energy units you may have like banshees, ravens, etc 4) EMP also hits air units above ground units, providing useful splash damage. Even just a few ghosts can make a huge difference. Once you're on 3 bases I highly recommend adding a couple. In terms of adding BCs, you need to be careful not to leave yourself too vulnerable to some sort of huge zealot walkby since BCs have limited mobility and can't control ground space like hellion/tank can.
In fact you suggest mech+ghost in the midgame and not BC? I feel it's safer to have a huge tank+hellion+banshee count and then transition into BC and on 4/5 Base adding ghosts.
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On May 14 2012 15:51 papaz wrote:How do you Terrans reinforce your army?Gold league player here: So at 10 min mark I move out my mighty MMM army towards my opponents base. At this point where do I rally all my production facilities? 1. Near the opponent base? 2. On one of the units in my MMM army? 3. Don't change rally point, go back to base and get more army if you need to? Thing is it gets messy during battle. I can't find a comfortable/good way of reinforcing. This is what I do most of the time:1. While moving out the MMM army put a rally point on a "comfortable" place on the map for example a Xel Naga Tower. 2. From time to time click on the minimap on the Xel Naga Tower, box the units, press shift-1 to add them to the control group of my main army, click on the minimap at the location where my main army is and the press 1 and A-move (yeah I A-move )
I usually rally to around the spot where I'm going, but if you want to rally to a specific unit I believe you can shift-rally to a bunch of units so that if one dies the rally won't go away.
On May 14 2012 18:05 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 07:02 SgtJoKeR wrote:
Hey guys!
I'm trying to find new builds to play againts zergs because I feel that they are almost dead and don't serve as many uses as before.
MorroW said that the hellions served a lot of purpose but they are useful for the few purpose they have left. That is true. But I want a build that works very good at the very new state of the game.
I was wondering about the pros/cons of a good 1 rax FE into 1-1-1 marine-hellion elevator push?
If anyone could help me out on this!
Thanks!
SgtJoKeR Just do what most korean T do on ladder : 1rax Fe into 1-1-1 hellion/cloackshee: You can survive to a ling/bling bust You can outright win the game with the banshees. You deny the third base. You transition either into mech or marine/tank. If you're interested pm me and I upload a replay from Polt, it's with the last patch but the build is the same anyway. Another build which is really good atm is 2fac bfh. Because 10+ hellions don't give a fuck about queens and zerglings, and zergs are really, really greedy right now. Tho it's hard to transition into something else than mech.
Pretty much this. These 2 are the strongest/most solid openings in TvZ imo, and I always transition into mech. However, I don't reccomend 2 reactor fac off 1 rax expand, it seems a bit risky and gimmicky. I do reactor hellion and @100 gas add 2nd fac and make techlab on it and go for blueflame (or siege mode if you think you will be all-inned). Pumping 3 hellions at a time instead of 4 is still fine, and it can transition into nice macro mech or mech all-ins (adding 3rd fac and going for hellion/thor/SCV) while holding off everything the Zerg can throw at you.
On May 15 2012 02:52 Captain Marksie wrote:
Has anyone experimented with using reapers past the early game?
What i had in mind was basically using an 8 reaper hit squad in combination with a medivac for harrasment and sniping tech/ workers. They tear through workers and building so fast that if your opponent is out of position or doesn't react quickly enough you can decimate his mineral line and/or snipe key structures and get out before the opponent can do anything about it.
The main downside i can see is the build time/gas cost. But if you are going Bio you usually have spare gas anyways. I think if you are efficient with your reapers and treat them like infestors (i.e. don't let them die) it might be worth it. But then again in order to be efficient with them it requires you to keep and eye on them and a lot of micro.
I had a 1.5 hour TvT yesterday, and at one point it was basically mass raven/BC/viking wars, but suddenly my opponent threw in ~10 reapers in his mix and started sniping my depots/tech (map was mined out by now and every mineral/building counts) and I had almost pure raven/viking and static defense in the centre so I had a hard time dealing with it. I definitely think it has potential. However, I would only do it in those super-lategame situations, otherwise it seems a bit risky.
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On May 15 2012 03:58 saaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 05:36 Starshaped wrote:On May 14 2012 05:05 saaaa wrote:On May 14 2012 04:36 Starshaped wrote:On May 14 2012 02:03 saaaa wrote:On May 14 2012 01:19 Starshaped wrote:
Nobody good goes mech in TvP, at least not seriously, since it's just suicide. I personally do it, but only because my computer is too bad for me to go bio. Just trust me, stay away from mech TvP unless you want to be frustrated to no end. 2base mech all-ins are alright, but macro mech is just handing the win to your opponent (if he's smart), with rare exceptions depending on map.
Polt has an excellent TvZ mech, which I highly recommend. Rainbow does some nice mech all-ins. ForGG does some good mech all-ins as well.
Mech in TvT is really common, so you can watch any good Terran to see it. I suppose Goody is the classic example, but he opens up too gimmicky for my taste most of the time.
If you don't mind watching "lesser" players, Avilo (NA Terran) plays mech a lot in TvT and TvZ, very macro-oriented and passive. i am plat and i win against master players fairly easy at the moment. if you play mech right there is no way to loose it.. you can only loose if you do terrible mistakes -> If you play a nearly perfect game and its 100% a win. In TvP you can hold all hard all-ins which can the protoss execute really easy. But Mech in TvT and TvZ is way easier in my opinion because you don't need your whole army to defend attacks but in TvP you need every tank in the right place. I never saw Polt played Mech in TvZ only Tank+Bio :/ It's the exact opposite. It doesn't matter how well you play mech vs Protoss, it will always come down to whether or not your opponent makes big mistakes or doesn't know what to do. Protoss won't usually all-in against mech, but if they feel like it they can just go blinkstalker/collo and destroy you since you cannot possibly deal with that kind of mobility (though there are a few maps where it's easier to defend). The biggest problem with mech against Protoss, besides the immobility, is that you can almost never trade armies effectively. Protoss can literally a-move into your sieged position and trade fairly well. Bottom line is that if you won with macro mech against Protoss, it was because your opponent let you. you should watch this thread with his replays inside and you will have another opionion. I include in "mech" also BC, Banshee and Ravens... and a mix out of Tanks, Hellion, Thors, BC, Raven, Banshees is mindblowing believe me. here ist the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003 I've played mech TvP at high master level for a very long time, I know what I'm talking about. There is simply no case to be made for lategame mech TvP. You can play it, and you can win with it, I even think TvP is my best win% overall, but it doesn't matter. You rely too much on gimmicks and on your opponent being bad. Against a player who knows what to do against mech (and trust me, there are about 500 valid responses) you simply will not win. Of course, there are some maps where it's alright, but for the most part you'll be playing with a big disadvantage if you go mech in TvP. Also, if you're going to go mech, always go ghost-mech. Don't do the no-ghost stuff this guy is writing about, lol. I know mech can feel really strong when you get these really one-sided wins, but you must understand that it's only because your opponent doesn't know what he's doing >_> Play mech if you want, but don't for a second think it's strong or solid in TvP. I've learned that the hard way. Can you explain these most valid responses? Maybe you have replays, where you lost to this kind? You suggest only going ghost+mech and not just mech+BC in the midgame and add ghosts later on?
I wouldn't make BC at all except some late-game situations. The problem with late-game transitions in TvP is that most of your stuff is countered by feedback (raven, BC, banshee etc.)
Anyway, you need EMP to make sure your opponent can't trade too effectively. What I do is have 1rax for ghosts off 2 base. I don't get the energy upgrade if I'm going for a 2base-allin, instead I rely on the 3-4 ghosts I've built up and they will have more or less full mana by the time I push. If you are going for macro mech you want to get the energy upgrade and add more rax for ghost production as you take a 3rd.
EMP is vital because not only does it deal with immortal/archon/templar, it also deals with phoenix, which a lot of protoss will get to counter your tanks. If your opponent is allowed to pick up all your tanks you will always lose. Mech without EMP will not win against most Protoss army compositions.
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EPT
