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On July 06 2011 23:53 KaiserJohan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 23:49 aebriol wrote:On July 06 2011 23:43 Destiny wrote:
This is what I'm talking about. If you cannon rush like this on Tal'Darim Altar or Shakuras Plateau, you will always beat someone going 15h. You simply can't defend this with drones. Yes you can. If you don't move your overlords away, but keep them in position to see when the pylon is placed down, and then pull drones. ![[image loading]](http://s3.postimage.org/bbgsu18k/asddsa.jpg) (big version of the image)But you can't defend it if you don't see the first pylon going up, that is correct. You can't defend it without loosing the eco race hard. And honestly 4-5 drones is not enough - he put 2 cannons low ground then what do you do? What if he places another on high ground shortly after?
Do note this is delaying his expansion a lot as well. I would say it evens the game out unless he's all out cannon rushing praying he gets one up then hold then the zerg is ahead.
Its possible to hold, just need good overlord placement and pull the right amount of drones. Most players can't pull it off, but with practice you can and you won't be behind as unless I am mistaken, this does delay his nexus by alot so if you are "behind" you will catch up very fast as his tech is behind as well (they delay gateway to do this as well).
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Updated the OP, check it out. I guess my main question is: can you stop a pylon wall 100% of the time by move commanding to the 3rd pylon spot, even if the protoss builds it very quickly and your drone is far behind because it recently attacked?
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The Protoss can always put themselves ahead if they open any sort of forge against a hatch first. Assuming the perfect response from Zerg, and that you spot low ground/wall off/hidden pylon/cannons immediately, Protoss can cancel, do the BOSS cannon rush, et cetera, to force lost mining time that, while it may not be an auto-loss as Destiny says (which, at the highest levels, I'm skeptical it isn't an autoloss against competent players), it will put you behind.
Zerg just has to go Pool or Gas first against Protoss. Yes, maybe it's pretty lame P can forge/FE first and not be punished for eco-cheese basically (because if you 6 pool it's autoloss), but due to the nature of Protoss having less units, slowly, I think nexus first kind of openings are quite weak since lack of early game pressure. It's 11 minutes of guaranteed no pressure.
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OP, yes, you stop the wall if you have your drone on patrol/hold.
The map is so big that I think having overlords just hanging around your base is a bad idea, you won't get the critical mid-game scout if it's far positions without risking later overlords on a cross-map trek to be sniped. Personally, what I do is send my first overlord to go scout, and the 9 overlord to spot for bunker/cannon shenanigans. Usually, that overlord is timed with planting the expo, and then I can move it to go scout once lings are out.
I think someone mentioned taking a fast third, which I believe is a really bad idea since they can just cannon it up. I think there was a Spanishiwa vs ONE or Deezer or some bad cheesy player, on backwater gulch where Spanishiwa tries to ninja an expansion 4 times, and a probe finds it and forces a cancel at the cost of a single pylon. Sheth's guide about drone saturation also shows that taking a third before 16+16 drones is bad economically since you can't take advantage of it, and will put you behind than if you had just taken a 'faster' third like around 44 supply.
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Wow, I hadn't even considered the micro on MC's part. Wow @_@.
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1.) Take the drone that is outside of the Pylon wall and expand to the expansion farest away from P.
2.) In your main drone like crazy, tech to nydus and connect your two bases again
3.) Most likely the follow up will be air or DT because P wants to punish Z for trying to catch up - be prepared...
Unfortunately I hadn't seen the game between MC and Idra when somebody did this against me on ladder. I was shocked / amazed (I like seeing crazy stuff). And I was sitting there totally confused for a couple of seconds before I tried to work something out against this. While being in the game I opted to go roach/ling + Nydus worm, skipping my expansion. Later in the game I started to realize that I had acutally 2 drones outside my base left (scouting + expo drone) and started to expand...
I think this build is terrible for P once Z had made a plan to deal with it.
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I speak as someone who asked a protoss to cannon rush me 20 times on Tal Darim.
- You auto die to 13 forge if you don't patrol by 2:10. You still auto die if you went 14 pool. You can gamble and not patrol at this time as 13 forge is a very small part of P opening range on this map, but you're dead if he does this.
- If you're hatch first you can not patrol with just 1 drone off mining. You HAVE to follow his probe. After a while you HAVE to bring a 2nd drone to patrol while you follow, to time it with his 2nd probe. Otherwise, you die to forge first. (You don't "die" if he walls behind your natural, but you lose your natural).
There are 2 spots you need to be concerned with, behind the mineral 3 pylon wall and the natural:main connector wall. You have to attack him, then when he approaches this stop attacking and right click into the block spot. If he has commenced the wall in the connector, you have to run into the 3rd pylon spot, hold shift, and spam right click back and forth whilst frantically grabbing 5 drones from your main. If you do not shift spam right click 3-4 times, protoss can 4 pylon wall ignoring your stationary blocking drone and you die.
You need a second drone soon after the probe scouts you as you have to follow the initial probe to stop behind-the-mineral wall, so you need the 2nd drone to stop a 2nd probe from quickly walling the connector whilst your drone is following the 1st probe around the back of the natural.
If you're FE you need your overlord to go over your hatch so you can see if he's elevatoring cannons up your butthole (behind your natural). You can't check this with your singular drone holding the natural/connector because if protoss comes in and sees you're not patrolling he will 3 pylon you and you will lose.
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imo, if he gets it up you are close to dead against a competent player.
busting it down will lose you a lot and show exactly what is comming, so you have to bust it extremly early, but then it is an autolose if he didn't build a nexus.
nydus allin is... viable on the ladder because the players are so bad. but you are depending on him not thinking about it and you need at least the second overlord blindrallied to his base on Tel'darim.
If he follows his build up with a lot of gateways and then blink I really have no clue how to deal with it, because you can't break him and once you stop roach/ling production you are dead. If you don't stop it, you are dead later...
so in conclusion I think on prolevel it is game over instantly, when P gets the wall+canon up.
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Is there a reason to favor hatch-first rather than Overpool on a Forge FE map? Are you gambling that the Protoss scouts you late?
I was under the impression that Overpool-no-gas builds were in disfavor because they don't get fast speed or fast natural creep, but you don't need either of those against a Forge FE.
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my shot at trying to break the 3 pylons wall on tda vs Geiko:
http://drop.sc/18652
i failed and i say its impossible to break on thru to the other side
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I'm sorry but I am going to have to strongly disagree with a lot of the points you made blade, sure you need to keep a drone patrolling to stop the pylon block, but just simply opening 14pool 15hath, 14gas 14pool, 14pool , 16has , then hatch + Speed, any of these variants of this build is SAFER and will put you LESS behind if you get cannon rushed, why? Because if you have one mis micro vs cannon rush it can cost you the game , cost you to have to cancel your hatchery, or over commit in order to kill / stop his cannon rush, so instead of putting yourself behind, you just do a different opening build order (which i'm seeing a lot of zergs doing on tal darim ) is just open up pool first, this isn't broodwar, but I think ZvP openings are kinda getting closer and closer to how BW is played ZvP, opening hatch first on a lot of maps is just plane risky if the protoss has good cannon positioning / a good cannon rush, its nearly impossible to stop, just a few perfectly placed cannons inside / outside minerals at expo easily stops a hatch first zerg EVERY single time if the protoss's timing is correct, the only way to stop this is to put drones where cannons are going to be made so he cant make them, and that is still hard to pull off considering he can just avoid you're drones and make a lot of cannons infront and behind mineral line, and you can't stop it.
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On July 07 2011 03:34 galivet wrote:I believe that there are a number of one-base all-ins that defeat the wall-off if protoss follows it up by expanding. One example is nydusing one-base hydras just outside of protoss's natural. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226952I used to use walloff strats in PvZ until I found that zergs who perform one of the correct responses cannot be defeated. The walloff slows tech and unit production so much.
if this were true there would be absolutely no reason not to hatch first every zvp
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On July 06 2011 15:42 Sanctimonius wrote:I'm not saying you have to all-in. Three pylons - 300 minerals. That's almost a hatch right there. Next he's made a nexus and cannons - 400+100(pylon) and if he's going for a wall off 150/300(cannons), 150(gateway) and usually another 100(pylon). That's 1200 minerals sunk there. How many lings and roaches would you have to make to have spent that much? If you pool first (why not overpool if you're expecting to be pylon blocked?) and use lings to take down one of the pylons allowing an expansion, I don't see you as being far behind. Obviously if he has a cannon you're pushing for roaches and lings to take it down - worse but still not that far behind. If he puts down cannons, a fast expansion of his own, walls it off, he's making a huge investment - much worse off than if he simply forge fast-expanded. Course it's not the best position to be in, but zerg shouldn't expect to be able to be greedy every game and not be punished for it at some point. I may be completely off the mark but I suspect you're not actually that far behind if you're keeping on top of macro while you get lings and roaches. I wouldn't mind seeing some timings and maths on this 
I hope you are aware that a hatchery costs 300 minerals.
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On July 07 2011 23:55 dementrio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 03:34 galivet wrote:I believe that there are a number of one-base all-ins that defeat the wall-off if protoss follows it up by expanding. One example is nydusing one-base hydras just outside of protoss's natural. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226952I used to use walloff strats in PvZ until I found that zergs who perform one of the correct responses cannot be defeated. The walloff slows tech and unit production so much. if this were true there would be absolutely no reason not to hatch first every zvp
The three pylon wall + cannon is about the least cost-efficient way to pressure hatch first. It delays unit production and tech for so long that zerg can win by nydusing units near the entrance to P's natural where he cannot prevent the nydus.
Hatch first should be more afraid of fast pressure from early units supported by one pylon and a cannon. That kind of pressure does not delay units or tech nearly as much and it wastes fewer minerals.
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to my experience hatch first in ZvP is a risk.
there is no other way to say it. in my view if you are gready enough to go hatch first i would just autoblock the ramp and delay the scout a bit.
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This 3 pylon block and then lots of cannons outside happened to me twice today again  Hopeless. need to 7 pool protoss every time cos i have no idea how to deal with this
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On August 22 2011 10:30 dpurple wrote:This 3 pylon block and then lots of cannons outside happened to me twice today again Hopeless. need to 7 pool protoss every time cos i have no idea how to deal with this
Did you not read blade55555's first post on the first page? It is definitely stoppable.
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On August 22 2011 10:38 Soluhwin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 10:30 dpurple wrote:This 3 pylon block and then lots of cannons outside happened to me twice today again Hopeless. need to 7 pool protoss every time cos i have no idea how to deal with this Did you not read blade55555's first post on the first page? It is definitely stoppable.
Hmm....both games i didnt even see it until my first zerglings and drone came out to expand, ramp blocked and cannon behind, cos i never hatch first vs protoss. So i guess i need to put my first overlord at my ramp then. And then try to block pylons with a drone. Well i guess that makes sense.
Edit: i mean second overlord.
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On July 06 2011 18:02 Sanctimonius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 16:46 ETisME wrote:On July 06 2011 15:42 Sanctimonius wrote:I'm not saying you have to all-in. Three pylons - 300 minerals. That's almost a hatch right there. Next he's made a nexus and cannons - 400+100(pylon) and if he's going for a wall off 150/300(cannons), 150(gateway) and usually another 100(pylon). That's 1200 minerals sunk there. How many lings and roaches would you have to make to have spent that much? If you pool first (why not overpool if you're expecting to be pylon blocked?) and use lings to take down one of the pylons allowing an expansion, I don't see you as being far behind. Obviously if he has a cannon you're pushing for roaches and lings to take it down - worse but still not that far behind. If he puts down cannons, a fast expansion of his own, walls it off, he's making a huge investment - much worse off than if he simply forge fast-expanded. Course it's not the best position to be in, but zerg shouldn't expect to be able to be greedy every game and not be punished for it at some point. I may be completely off the mark but I suspect you're not actually that far behind if you're keeping on top of macro while you get lings and roaches. I wouldn't mind seeing some timings and maths on this the huge investment is easily recovered by using stargate to prevent the zerg to do a successful all-in and with chronoboosting probes, zerg is extremely far behind in economy Either we make more units or drones, we can't go both, that is zerg, we are very far behind if we got pylon blocked and if protoss had gotten his expo up before ours. The pros have their reason to go for their opening, that is why idra said he mis-micro'd the drone. He could have defended it with his own opening. So the cover for an huge outlay is to spend more on something that can defend slowly a Zerg attack? Stargate only gives you a bit of map control unless you put a lot of resources into it. Why are people saying the only option is to go allin? Expo once you have the troops to break the wall. My point is that the toss puts a huge outlay into the wallin, then into making sure any counter attack you make is not successful. That's fine, spend your minerals on a hatch and drones. People are mistaking having a second base as toss as being the same as having two fully saturated bases. Yes, it sucks that he gets his base up before yours. You still have been doing your macro and will probably have more drones than he has probes. When your natural is up then you can transfer more drones than you normally have. I'm not saying this doesn't suck or put you behind, I'm simply trying to say that it's not the end of the world and you have options.
Because you can't do anything but allin. You're so insanely far behind Protoss, their income has been so much higher for you for so long. And it's not as if those 300 resources in pylons didn't give them supply in the meantime to keep producing normally. You have to break the wall, which takes out some of your troops in the process, and then start you expo minutes after the Toss expo has already began mining. That's like 3 ingame minutes of being behind a base, you're behind on tech, toss is ahead economically, ahead in production.... I don't know what you're expecting.
On July 08 2011 02:59 OoOo wrote:
to my experience hatch first in ZvP is a risk.
there is no other way to say it. in my view if you are gready enough to go hatch first i would just autoblock the ramp and delay the scout a bit.
How's it greedy when Protoss is able to nexus first against almost any pool first build 100% safely? And at the same time, if youd o go for something like a 10pool, they just go forge --> cannon --> nexus.
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EPT
