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***Please don't post if you're just going to say "have drone patrol at the bottom of the ramp"***
In the Idra interview just posted he says, "On Tal'Darim Altar, I went 15 Hatch, aiming for a macro game, and got cannon rushed. The Pylon block can always be defended, I just made a mistake with my Drone control."
I'm pretty sure he didn't mean that he forgot to patrol a drone at his choke. So what could he have done differently to prevent the pylon wall? In my experience, the drone is always behind the probe as it's chasing it, and if the probe starts building a pylon wall, your drone can't sprint in front of it and block the last pylon (since they move the same speed). So how could he have prevented that with better control?
UPDATE
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AS4ok.jpg)
MC has purposefully run his probe downwards and then upwards so that IdrA's drone is away from where he wants to build his pylons. Also, IdrA's drone is quite a bit behind because it has just attempted to attack, which causes the drone to stop for a moment.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/i8Vc6.jpg)
MC quickly builds the first two pylons and IdrA attempts to block the 3rd, but is blocked by the probe.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/msgQe.jpg)
The drone is fighting to get past the probe...
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RHNnf.jpg)
...but it's no use.
My question is could this have been prevented reactively (i.e. without preemptively patrolling a drone at the choke). If it can be prevented, how so? IdrA was a tiny bit slow on his reaction time, if he had been a half second faster, would that have made a difference? Mineral walking could have helped, but that's not possible on all maps (the minerals are too far away to click on quickly enough). Help me out TL.
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There isn't a way... i know you said not to mention drone patrol at the ramp, but honestly thats the only way to prevent three pylons from blocking your ramp.
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If he had the drone go hold position by the wall so that he couldn't get the third pylon off he would have blocked it. His drone was behind the probe, but the probe still has to go 3 points to put down the 3 pylons. If you have a drone following it you will get it to block the third one before he can do it.
at least that is what I do and it never fails me unless I'm not paying attention.
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High level zerg players usually know the timing for when protoss players have enough minerals to make a wall and will send a drone at that time in an effort to block the choke before the wall can be completely built.
If he was talking about the game against MC at MLG, I remember specially that IdrA simply right clicked his drone on the probe allowing MC to build his wall in such a way that the drone would not block it. He just failed to manually move his drone in front of the probe when the wall started.
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On July 06 2011 10:43 blade55555 wrote:
If he had the drone go hold position by the wall so that he couldn't get the third pylon off he would have blocked it. His drone was behind the probe, but the probe still has to go 3 points to put down the 3 pylons. If you have a drone following it you will get it to block the third one before he can do it.
at least that is what I do and it never fails me unless I'm not paying attention.
This. I have a drone chase the probe if I haven't found his base yet (eg. scouted last on a 4 player map), usually I send out drone at 14 to scout. So with the chasing drone, if you see the probe even approach the ramp you have to be watching carefully, right when the first pylon goes down you want to move your drone to where the 3rd pylon will be and hold position. Most likely he's going to try and kill your drone so pull 3 or so-ish drones for now, two chase probe, one hold position on bottom ramp where 3rd pylon should be, send your injured drone back to mine. If he cancels pylons you're good, but keep a drone at bottom of ramp anyway. If he goes ahead and tries to cannon when the ramp isn't blocked, pull drones, but you should be more than fine by this point.
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Why do most zerg assume that it's their right to play greedy anyways? I know it's standard to expo before your opponent, but if you end up getting blocked then build up an army, destroy the wall and laugh at the 300 minerals the toss just wasted. You now have an army which he must respond to, and an option of putting on pressure or expanding yourself. Just because you're zerg doesn't mean you can expect to expand at the start of every matchup, you have to adapt - this is coming from a zerg player.
Still, if it bothers you so much as others have said you don't need to have a patrolling drone, just place one to block off the last pylon. If you're expecting it you can even just place one here as standard to guarantee the expansion not be blocked off - one drone not mining vs not being able to expand.
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On July 06 2011 10:43 blade55555 wrote:
If he had the drone go hold position by the wall so that he couldn't get the third pylon off he would have blocked it. His drone was behind the probe, but the probe still has to go 3 points to put down the 3 pylons. If you have a drone following it you will get it to block the third one before he can do it.
at least that is what I do and it never fails me unless I'm not paying attention.
Thanks for the comments everyone, and yes this is what I normally try to do. But in the IdrA vs. MC game and in some of my games, I find that the wall is built so quickly that you can't block it reactively. In the game vs. MC, he waits for his probe to be in a spot where he can build the first two instantly and then he just has to build the 3rd before the drone, which is behind the probe, gets to the final pylon spot.
I've had games where I see the first pylon go down and instantly move command to where the 3rd is going down and my drone doesn't make it in time. So I guess my question is, can you stop a pylon wall reactively, or do you have to hold position your chasing drone on the ramp as soon as you see the probe get near it.
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On July 06 2011 12:28 Sanctimonius wrote:
Why do most zerg assume that it's their right to play greedy anyways? I know it's standard to expo before your opponent, but if you end up getting blocked then build up an army, destroy the wall and laugh at the 300 minerals the toss just wasted. You now have an army which he must respond to, and an option of putting on pressure or expanding yourself. Just because you're zerg doesn't mean you can expect to expand at the start of every matchup, you have to adapt - this is coming from a zerg player.
Still, if it bothers you so much as others have said you don't need to have a patrolling drone, just place one to block off the last pylon. If you're expecting it you can even just place one here as standard to guarantee the expansion not be blocked off - one drone not mining vs not being able to expand.
that is incorrect.
A protoss can nexus first and get cannons out before your lings can get there if you do anything later then a 12 or 13 pool.
If you want to play a macro game you HAVE to expo and be up a base. Its just how the game works. Just because you are a zerg doesn't mean anything. If you are staying 1 base you are going all in. If you do not kill the protoss or do enough economic damage you are going to lose unless he lets you take expansion and get back into the game. Its not adapt its smart play to take an expansion.
Its not even greedy, its what you have to do to keep up with protoss. Protoss can nexus first and zerg can do nothing unless he 8 pools vs that or all in and hope he doesn't defend properly. On taldarim/shakuras its very popular for a toss to do it. So why do an all in when you can keep up economically?
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I'm not saying you have to all-in.
Three pylons - 300 minerals. That's almost a hatch right there. Next he's made a nexus and cannons - 400+100(pylon) and if he's going for a wall off 150/300(cannons), 150(gateway) and usually another 100(pylon).
That's 1200 minerals sunk there. How many lings and roaches would you have to make to have spent that much? If you pool first (why not overpool if you're expecting to be pylon blocked?) and use lings to take down one of the pylons allowing an expansion, I don't see you as being far behind. Obviously if he has a cannon you're pushing for roaches and lings to take it down - worse but still not that far behind. If he puts down cannons, a fast expansion of his own, walls it off, he's making a huge investment - much worse off than if he simply forge fast-expanded.
Course it's not the best position to be in, but zerg shouldn't expect to be able to be greedy every game and not be punished for it at some point. I may be completely off the mark but I suspect you're not actually that far behind if you're keeping on top of macro while you get lings and roaches. I wouldn't mind seeing some timings and maths on this
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You can't put everything together by resources. Zerg is a unique race that needs to expand fast to win. If there is anything stopping the zerg from taking their 2nd expo, they will be in a devastating position.
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On July 06 2011 13:05 Cambam wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 10:43 blade55555 wrote:
If he had the drone go hold position by the wall so that he couldn't get the third pylon off he would have blocked it. His drone was behind the probe, but the probe still has to go 3 points to put down the 3 pylons. If you have a drone following it you will get it to block the third one before he can do it.
at least that is what I do and it never fails me unless I'm not paying attention. Thanks for the comments everyone, and yes this is what I normally try to do. But in the IdrA vs. MC game and in some of my games, I find that the wall is built so quickly that you can't block it reactively. In the game vs. MC, he waits for his probe to be in a spot where he can build the first two instantly and then he just has to build the 3rd before the drone, which is behind the probe, gets to the final pylon spot. I've had games where I see the first pylon go down and instantly move command to where the 3rd is going down and my drone doesn't make it in time. So I guess my question is, can you stop a pylon wall reactively, or do you have to hold position your chasing drone on the ramp as soon as you see the probe get near it.
Starcraft is a game of choices. If he decides to go for the more economic 15 hatch, he has to take into account that he won't have lings or anything to stop the wall or be ready to bust the wall and possibly the protoss. It's obviously also a choice to have your drone there anticipating a canon rush, and if you are right then you will have a decent advantage.
So basically, you have to plan ahead.
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Simple, just don't go hatchery first, problem solved. If given the option to hatch first or pool first, without any danger sure hatchery first is better but you take the risk of getting cannoned. Simple as that. That's why pool first is safer. It's all about balancing your risk vs rewards
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On July 06 2011 15:42 Sanctimonius wrote:I'm not saying you have to all-in. Three pylons - 300 minerals. That's almost a hatch right there. Next he's made a nexus and cannons - 400+100(pylon) and if he's going for a wall off 150/300(cannons), 150(gateway) and usually another 100(pylon). That's 1200 minerals sunk there. How many lings and roaches would you have to make to have spent that much? If you pool first (why not overpool if you're expecting to be pylon blocked?) and use lings to take down one of the pylons allowing an expansion, I don't see you as being far behind. Obviously if he has a cannon you're pushing for roaches and lings to take it down - worse but still not that far behind. If he puts down cannons, a fast expansion of his own, walls it off, he's making a huge investment - much worse off than if he simply forge fast-expanded. Course it's not the best position to be in, but zerg shouldn't expect to be able to be greedy every game and not be punished for it at some point. I may be completely off the mark but I suspect you're not actually that far behind if you're keeping on top of macro while you get lings and roaches. I wouldn't mind seeing some timings and maths on this
the huge investment is easily recovered by using stargate to prevent the zerg to do a successful all-in and with chronoboosting probes, zerg is extremely far behind in economy
Either we make more units or drones, we can't go both, that is zerg, we are very far behind if we got pylon blocked and if protoss had gotten his expo up before ours.
The pros have their reason to go for their opening, that is why idra said he mis-micro'd the drone. He could have defended it with his own opening.
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Hmm maybe just make a Hatch cancel -> Evo Chamber on the choke and then build the hatch?
Never tried it but could be worth a try
Edit_ Forget about my stupid post.
hatch cancel = 75 mins + 75 mins for evo -> just build pool before hatch...
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On July 06 2011 12:28 Sanctimonius wrote:
Why do most zerg assume that it's their right to play greedy anyways? I know it's standard to expo before your opponent, but if you end up getting blocked then build up an army, destroy the wall and laugh at the 300 minerals the toss just wasted. You now have an army which he must respond to, and an option of putting on pressure or expanding yourself. Just because you're zerg doesn't mean you can expect to expand at the start of every matchup, you have to adapt - this is coming from a zerg player.
Still, if it bothers you so much as others have said you don't need to have a patrolling drone, just place one to block off the last pylon. If you're expecting it you can even just place one here as standard to guarantee the expansion not be blocked off - one drone not mining vs not being able to expand.
It's not a right, it's a must. Sure you can create a one-base army and break the pylons... but what next? Attack with a weak 1base attack and die? Get a very late expand and drone, letting the protoss dominate you with any form of midgame push?
There's just no option, 1base as zerg is allin and extremely easy to punish.
It's easy to count how much the protoss spent on containing the zerg, but it's not all that relevant unfortunately. Mass-lings won't break a toss cannon wall, roaches cost gas which the toss early defense doesn't. The point isn't whether or not the protoss spent very little do delay your expand, the point is that a zerg having an expo delayed too long simply can't recover. When your second base starts to get somewhat saturated, the toss will have 2 saturated bases, have started their third and still have a bigger army than you. A toss army is far more costeffective than a zerg one, once the toss get sufficiently ahead in economy, you're not going to break them.
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On July 06 2011 16:46 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 15:42 Sanctimonius wrote:I'm not saying you have to all-in. Three pylons - 300 minerals. That's almost a hatch right there. Next he's made a nexus and cannons - 400+100(pylon) and if he's going for a wall off 150/300(cannons), 150(gateway) and usually another 100(pylon). That's 1200 minerals sunk there. How many lings and roaches would you have to make to have spent that much? If you pool first (why not overpool if you're expecting to be pylon blocked?) and use lings to take down one of the pylons allowing an expansion, I don't see you as being far behind. Obviously if he has a cannon you're pushing for roaches and lings to take it down - worse but still not that far behind. If he puts down cannons, a fast expansion of his own, walls it off, he's making a huge investment - much worse off than if he simply forge fast-expanded. Course it's not the best position to be in, but zerg shouldn't expect to be able to be greedy every game and not be punished for it at some point. I may be completely off the mark but I suspect you're not actually that far behind if you're keeping on top of macro while you get lings and roaches. I wouldn't mind seeing some timings and maths on this the huge investment is easily recovered by using stargate to prevent the zerg to do a successful all-in and with chronoboosting probes, zerg is extremely far behind in economy Either we make more units or drones, we can't go both, that is zerg, we are very far behind if we got pylon blocked and if protoss had gotten his expo up before ours. The pros have their reason to go for their opening, that is why idra said he mis-micro'd the drone. He could have defended it with his own opening.
So the cover for an huge outlay is to spend more on something that can defend slowly a Zerg attack? Stargate only gives you a bit of map control unless you put a lot of resources into it.
Why are people saying the only option is to go allin? Expo once you have the troops to break the wall. My point is that the toss puts a huge outlay into the wallin, then into making sure any counter attack you make is not successful. That's fine, spend your minerals on a hatch and drones.
People are mistaking having a second base as toss as being the same as having two fully saturated bases. Yes, it sucks that he gets his base up before yours. You still have been doing your macro and will probably have more drones than he has probes. When your natural is up then you can transfer more drones than you normally have.
I'm not saying this doesn't suck or put you behind, I'm simply trying to say that it's not the end of the world and you have options.
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On July 06 2011 15:42 Sanctimonius wrote:I'm not saying you have to all-in. Three pylons - 300 minerals. That's almost a hatch right there. Next he's made a nexus and cannons - 400+100(pylon) and if he's going for a wall off 150/300(cannons), 150(gateway) and usually another 100(pylon). That's 1200 minerals sunk there. How many lings and roaches would you have to make to have spent that much? If you pool first (why not overpool if you're expecting to be pylon blocked?) and use lings to take down one of the pylons allowing an expansion, I don't see you as being far behind. Obviously if he has a cannon you're pushing for roaches and lings to take it down - worse but still not that far behind. If he puts down cannons, a fast expansion of his own, walls it off, he's making a huge investment - much worse off than if he simply forge fast-expanded. Course it's not the best position to be in, but zerg shouldn't expect to be able to be greedy every game and not be punished for it at some point. I may be completely off the mark but I suspect you're not actually that far behind if you're keeping on top of macro while you get lings and roaches. I wouldn't mind seeing some timings and maths on this
The problem is that if you overpool the protoss won't pylon contain or cannon you. He will just forge fast expand making him safe to your one base army while giving him a far better economy. Saying your not behind when you go overpool against a good FFE is just silly. If your afraid of getting cannoned or contained the best option imo is to pool>hatch or gas>pool>sling hatch. It gives a decent economy. Getting an early pool puts you so far behind that you have to do damage against the toss which means you have to get there before his wall is up and as demonstrated by the Huk vs Moon dreamhack final that isn't always possible even when you go for a 6pool.
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On July 06 2011 17:14 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 12:28 Sanctimonius wrote:
Why do most zerg assume that it's their right to play greedy anyways? I know it's standard to expo before your opponent, but if you end up getting blocked then build up an army, destroy the wall and laugh at the 300 minerals the toss just wasted. You now have an army which he must respond to, and an option of putting on pressure or expanding yourself. Just because you're zerg doesn't mean you can expect to expand at the start of every matchup, you have to adapt - this is coming from a zerg player.
Still, if it bothers you so much as others have said you don't need to have a patrolling drone, just place one to block off the last pylon. If you're expecting it you can even just place one here as standard to guarantee the expansion not be blocked off - one drone not mining vs not being able to expand. It's not a right, it's a must. Sure you can create a one-base army and break the pylons... but what next? Attack with a weak 1base attack and die? Get a very late expand and drone, letting the protoss dominate you with any form of midgame push? There's just no option, 1base as zerg is allin and extremely easy to punish. It's easy to count how much the protoss spent on containing the zerg, but it's not all that relevant unfortunately. Mass-lings won't break a toss cannon wall, roaches cost gas which the toss early defense doesn't. The point isn't whether or not the protoss spent very little do delay your expand, the point is that a zerg having an expo delayed too long simply can't recover. When your second base starts to get somewhat saturated, the toss will have 2 saturated bases, have started their third and still have a bigger army than you. A toss army is far more costeffective than a zerg one, once the toss get sufficiently ahead in economy, you're not going to break them.
I agree with just EVERYTHING you said here.
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On July 06 2011 10:37 Cambam wrote:
***Please don't post if you're just going to say "have drone patrol at the bottom of the ramp"***
Why shouldn't we post the only answer there is ?
Preventing the wall from going down with drones is really the only way to stop this if you are planing a hatch first build, unless you want to play from behind or attempt some crazy 1 base nydus all-in or something.
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OP did u watch the game? MC's scouting probe was in idra's main, a second probe came and built the wall. Idra just thought MC only had 1 probe until it was too late.
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EPT
