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On July 06 2011 21:12 Destiny wrote:
This may sound unpopular, but I firmly believe that 15h will auto-lose to any competent cannon rusher on maps like Tal'Darim Altar and Shakuras Plateau. There's simply no way to stop a cannon rush once the pylon's been started on the low ground, even if you scout it, even if you pull every single drone. I'd recommend looking at a different eco build that involves making an earlier spawning pool.
Also, Sanctimonous is posting a ton of non-sense in this thread about Z building up a pathetic 1 base army, breaking out, and then trying to pressure the P? The problem, Sanct, is that you're forgetting that other races have the ability to build an army and produce workers simultaneously. With Zerg, it's one or the other, always. A P will make the same amount of units while expanding whether or not you're doing any form of early pressure, it's not like he's losing a lot by being forced to deal with your weak 1 base army.
I always go for cannon rushes on these maps as my forge first expand gets an early forge anyways. However if I scout the hatch first and two drones blocking the choke I won't even try to wall it off.
If you are referring to the old school "pylons and cannons behind the natural's mineral line" rush with eventually chronoed zealot on the way, then it is indeed stoppable, but zergs have to pull some certain amount of drones do shut it down. All in all it depends on micro but it is definitely not "auto-lose".
And +1 for Sanctimonous posting non sense in this thread ^^
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You don't have to wall off, that's silly, don't try it. Start 1 pylon on the low ground, then make 1 cannon next to the pylon. Then move to the high ground and begin making cannons up there, while the low-ground cannon covers the new ones morphing in.
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The cannon rush's effectiveness varies quite a lot depending on how much he prioritizes starting his nexus or not.
i think overpooling and scouting with the gas cancel lets you have a drone in his base to see the forge building 2/3 of the times.
Usually, whenever you see the 2+ pylon 2+ cannon madness begin, it means he has not started his nexus yet. That means you can at least build a hatch in his natural and now you are at least even in bases but spent less stuff in useless shit (1 pylon and 2 cannons is more expensive than a hatch.). And maybe he even cut probes to build the pylon/cannon attack.
And now you can either ninja expand somewhere else (cancel the natural hatch that would die to cannons at the last moment in case he is planning on canceling the cannons unless you need the minerals to deny his natural) or get a roach warren before that so you can make a couple roaches at his natural before he kills the hatch. 2 roaches before he has stalkers can cause him a lot of pain. Maybe even get a queen if no more than 1 cannon is killing the hatch and put a tumor outside cannon sight range to delay his expo even longer. You can hold the queen over the tumor until it cloacks so he cant snipe it if he already has a zealot or whatever.
It's not like you are going to be in an advantage, but you can really mess with his plan. If you are better at improvising or diverging from standard plans you can pull amazing wins :D. Specially agains noobs that can copy extremely effective builds. Once you take them out of their known scenario, they fall apart.
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On July 06 2011 22:12 Destiny wrote:
You don't have to wall off, that's silly, don't try it. Start 1 pylon on the low ground, then make 1 cannon next to the pylon. Then move to the high ground and begin making cannons up there, while the low-ground cannon covers the new ones morphing in.
Have you tried defending that many times in a row against a training partner? Maybe there is a reasonable response.
I'd try bringing shittons of drones to the ramp, ready to hunt the probe that will try to put the pylon or cannon that will give sight. If he effectively puts the pylon, you should at least have been able to kill the probe. Then maybe you would have to hit that pylon/cannon just enough so that a spine that you might have started later than his cannon wins the static defense duel.
Besides, cannon rushing in that way (non blocking, and not in range of "all" paths to his base) leaves a more wide open door to a counterattack, right?
And if you see you will not be able to hold it, then just cancel and rebuild at your third. Taldarim on ladder has the rocks so you are fucked. But without the rocks it's not too bad.
I know i've stopped some cannon rushes in this way. But also maybe the cannon rushes were too far from optimal.
This is the kind of stuff to try 500 times with a training partner.
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On July 06 2011 18:05 Marsupian wrote:
The problem is that if you overpool the protoss won't pylon contain or cannon you. He will just forge fast expand making him safe to your one base army while giving him a far better economy. Saying your not behind when you go overpool against a good FFE is just silly. If your afraid of getting cannoned or contained the best option imo is to pool>hatch or gas>pool>sling hatch. It gives a decent economy. Getting an early pool puts you so far behind that you have to do damage against the toss which means you have to get there before his wall is up and as demonstrated by the Huk vs Moon dreamhack final that isn't always possible even when you go for a 6pool.
But overpool is only minorly less mineral efficient than 14/14, and has better larvae production? Frankly, 15hatch is pretty much dead v P anyway, and hell even Nestea is going 14/14 against terran. Frankly, I don't think overpool is going to set you any further behind than anything else against an FFE
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On July 06 2011 22:12 Destiny wrote:
You don't have to wall off, that's silly, don't try it. Start 1 pylon on the low ground, then make 1 cannon next to the pylon. Then move to the high ground and begin making cannons up there, while the low-ground cannon covers the new ones morphing in.
Wow, yeah indeed I can see how this type of cannon rushing can be effective. Especially on TalDarim where it is waaayy to long to pull drones. I'll add testing this to my to-do list and come back when I have a better opinion ^^
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For this reason, I never move my overlord away on this map. Instead I position both my starting overlords so that I will see if anything is made.
When I see a low ground pylon started, it's handled like any other cannon rush.
You just have to see it before the ground cannon is started.
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On July 06 2011 21:12 Destiny wrote:
This may sound unpopular, but I firmly believe that 15h will auto-lose to any competent cannon rusher on maps like Tal'Darim Altar and Shakuras Plateau. There's simply no way to stop a cannon rush once the pylon's been started on the low ground, even if you scout it, even if you pull every single drone. I'd recommend looking at a different eco build that involves making an earlier spawning pool.
This is so true. Maps like Shakuras and Taldarim make ZvP sooooo much harder and even imbalanced imo. Maps like metal/xelnaga are better.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Mkn7n.jpg)
I think this kind of placement is what destiny is referring to. You obviously can't deal with it as you would a "normal" cannon rush (if you pull 5 + drone all the way down there protoss can just cancel the cannon and be miles ahead in econ)
And killing the probe is impossible with decent protoss micro (especially if you send 2 probes as any protoss does on Tal darim)
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I am a toss who loves to pylon block. And one thing I dont understand that is pretty much constantly not discussed.
As a protoss I will never ever nexus after a pylon block as there is no way you can possibly hold a properly executed one base hydra drop unless you magically assume and make 5 or 6 cannons in your main.
Breaking the wall and expanding is not an ideal response, well it assumes you take the disadvantage, but often you will be able to do good roach pressure on several maps to not be too far behind I find.
And for blocking the pylon, chasing my probe and moving it when you see the first pylon go up to block is the ideal response without doubt.
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On July 06 2011 23:15 Geiko wrote:I think this kind of placement is what destiny is referring to. You obviously can't deal with it as you would a "normal" cannon rush (if you pull 5 + drone all the way down there protoss can just cancel the cannon and be miles ahead in econ) And killing the probe is impossible with decent protoss micro (especially if you send 2 probes as any protoss does on Tal darim)
This is what I'm talking about. If you cannon rush like this on Tal'Darim Altar or Shakuras Plateau, you will always beat someone going 15h. You simply can't defend this with drones.
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On July 06 2011 23:43 Destiny wrote:
This is what I'm talking about. If you cannon rush like this on Tal'Darim Altar or Shakuras Plateau, you will always beat someone going 15h. You simply can't defend this with drones.
Yes you can.
If you don't move your overlords away, but keep them in position to see when the pylon is placed down, and then pull drones.
![[image loading]](http://s3.postimage.org/bbgsu18k/asddsa.jpg)
(big version of the image)
But you can't defend it if you don't see the first pylon going up, that is correct.
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On July 06 2011 23:49 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 23:43 Destiny wrote:
This is what I'm talking about. If you cannon rush like this on Tal'Darim Altar or Shakuras Plateau, you will always beat someone going 15h. You simply can't defend this with drones. Yes you can. If you don't move your overlords away, but keep them in position to see when the pylon is placed down, and then pull drones. (big version of the image)
And as was said originally, pulling 4-5 drones that distance puts the protoss hugely ahead with a pylon cancel. Probably ahead even without the pylon cancel tbh.
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On July 06 2011 23:49 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 23:43 Destiny wrote:
This is what I'm talking about. If you cannon rush like this on Tal'Darim Altar or Shakuras Plateau, you will always beat someone going 15h. You simply can't defend this with drones. Yes you can. If you don't move your overlords away, but keep them in position to see when the pylon is placed down, and then pull drones. (big version of the image)But you can't defend it if you don't see the first pylon going up, that is correct.
You can't defend it without loosing the eco race hard. And honestly 4-5 drones is not enough - he put 2 cannons low ground then what do you do?
What if he places another on high ground shortly after?
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On July 06 2011 23:53 KaiserJohan wrote:
You can't defend it without loosing the eco race hard. And honestly 4-5 drones is not enough - he put 2 cannons low ground then what do you do?
What if he places another on high ground shortly after?
Obviously you will be at a disadvantage.
But it's not an auto loss right there. You are not forced to cancel the hatch, you just won't have the economy to get 2 queens at once, just one, and you will have to chose to gamble on a fast third or a two base defense where you crush him when he moves out on the map.
Personally I prefer trying for fast third with +1 melee upgrade speedlings and a really late lair, with at least one additional queen. The reason is that when you decide to make units, you don't need as many drones, and you just get 200 gas, then don't get gas for a while. As a result, your initial setback still allows you to produce a lot of units, unlike if you chose to go for roaches or lair tech units.
It may change at a higher level - I am mid master on EU.
edit: Now, getting a pylon block up, that's auto loss.
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a drone mines 5 minerals/ 8seconds so 37,5 minerlas/ minute.
it takes 4 drones to kill a cannon. that leads us to 150 minerals / minute (4 drones pulled out) which is about 1 pylon (100) + 1 canceled cannon (25% of 150 is 37,5) =~ 140 minerals.
however, this is just theory which not applies with 100% accuracy because:
- you'll pull 8 drones cause of the long distance.
* if protoss gives up here and cancels the cannon you'll end up behind about 150 minerals but with an expo running.
* if protoss goes on with his plan and builds more cannons, he'll cut probes so it gets about even in terms of economy supposing you keep building drones and you keep your hatch safe.
im not sure if you can really hold the hatch as i never dealt with this situation before but there is a chance you can.
just stop saying "miles ahead" based on shit
also if the probe goes on the high ground while you work on the cannons you'll probably get the pylon. the pylon has 400 life and 1 armor. the drone has 5 attack (4 because of the pylon's armor) and 1,5 attack speed. 8 drones kill the pylon in like 19 seconds while the high ground cannon completes in 40s.
w/e i want to try it out vs a toss who can execute it correctly and has the time to retry a few times if i fuck up my drone micro
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On July 07 2011 00:34 HALFKNOT wrote:
a drone mines 5 minerals/ 8seconds so 37,5 minerlas/ minute.
it takes 4 drones to kill a cannon. that leads us to 150 minerals / minute (4 drones pulled out) which is about 1 pylon (100) + 1 canceled cannon (25% of 150 is 37,5) =~ 140 minerals.
however, this is just theory which not applies with 100% accuracy because:
- you'll pull 8 drones cause of the long distance.
* if protoss gives up here and cancels the cannon you'll end up behind about 150 minerals but with an expo running.
* if protoss goes on with his plan and builds more cannons, he'll cut probes so it gets about even in terms of economy supposing you keep building drones and you keep your hatch safe.
im not sure if you can really hold the hatch as i never dealt with this situation before but there is a chance you can.
just stop saying "miles ahead" based on shit
also if the probe goes on the high ground while you work on the cannons you'll probably get the pylon. the pylon has 400 life and 1 armor. the drone has 5 attack (4 because of the pylon's armor) and 1,5 attack speed. 8 drones kill the pylon in like 19 seconds while the high ground cannon completes in 40s.
w/e i want to try it out vs a toss who can execute it correctly and has the time to retry a few times if i fuck up my drone micro
Sure you can stop 2 cannons but what if he is making 3 cannons?
Yes, if you pull drones the moment the pylon goes up, your 8 drones will kill his 2 cannons. But what if he places 3? or 4? The other drones you pull wont arrive in time.
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On July 06 2011 10:43 blade55555 wrote:
If he had the drone go hold position by the wall so that he couldn't get the third pylon off he would have blocked it. His drone was behind the probe, but the probe still has to go 3 points to put down the 3 pylons. If you have a drone following it you will get it to block the third one before he can do it.
at least that is what I do and it never fails me unless I'm not paying attention.
This is basically how you have to do it, if you doesn't already has it on patrol or hold.
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i believe you can kill 3 cannons with 8 drones. you'll force the cancel on the 2 cannons you're working at pretty ez (or otherwise kill them and get MILES AHEAD) and then you focus your 8 drones on the 3rd. i dont know about the 4th cannon and im not willing to do the math. id rather play it out
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I believe that there are a number of one-base all-ins that defeat the wall-off if protoss follows it up by expanding. One example is nydusing one-base hydras just outside of protoss's natural.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226952
I used to use walloff strats in PvZ until I found that zergs who perform one of the correct responses cannot be defeated. The walloff slows tech and unit production so much.
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EPT
