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On August 22 2011 10:43 dpurple wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 10:38 Soluhwin wrote:On August 22 2011 10:30 dpurple wrote:This 3 pylon block and then lots of cannons outside happened to me twice today again  Hopeless. need to 7 pool protoss every time cos i have no idea how to deal with this Did you not read blade55555's first post on the first page? It is definitely stoppable. Hmm....both games i didnt even see it until my first zerglings and drone came out to expand, ramp blocked and cannon behind, cos i never hatch first vs protoss. So i guess i need to put my first overlord at my ramp then. And then try to block pylons with a drone. Well i guess that makes sense. Edit: i mean second overlord.
Just checked the replay. And in no way would this work of course. I guess the best way is to plant a drone at the bottom of my ramp at 2:15 and have it stay there until my zerglings come out at 3:30 and then just use the drone to expand.
What i tried in these games was mass zergling and break the the wall with a spine and run past his cannons and the try to baneling bust him.......that didnt turn out so well for me.
Maybe just ignore his wall, its worse for me if i open it i guess. And get fast lair and nydus and hydra. But i doubt it will work good.
I guess the best way is to make sure they can never get the pylons up?
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I dislike the advice for nydus. I'd much rather go for a drop than nydus because normally after a protoss delays the hatch by a lot or they make you stay on 1 base(or you choose to stay 1 base) they'll make pylons around their base to cover everything. So unless you're deciding to nydus right infront of their natural so theres basically no travel distance it wouldn't/shouldn't work. Besides instead of taking away travel distance by spending like 300gas why not just go drop right in the main where he can't really kill your overlords unless scouted before you make it to their base and even then you wouldn't have to deal with any cannons at their front
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use your 1st queen to spread creep and make a spine to destroy the pylons. Just double expo after this and you'll be fine.
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On July 06 2011 13:23 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 12:28 Sanctimonius wrote:
Why do most zerg assume that it's their right to play greedy anyways? I know it's standard to expo before your opponent, but if you end up getting blocked then build up an army, destroy the wall and laugh at the 300 minerals the toss just wasted. You now have an army which he must respond to, and an option of putting on pressure or expanding yourself. Just because you're zerg doesn't mean you can expect to expand at the start of every matchup, you have to adapt - this is coming from a zerg player.
Still, if it bothers you so much as others have said you don't need to have a patrolling drone, just place one to block off the last pylon. If you're expecting it you can even just place one here as standard to guarantee the expansion not be blocked off - one drone not mining vs not being able to expand. that is incorrect. A protoss can nexus first and get cannons out before your lings can get there if you do anything later then a 12 or 13 pool. If you want to play a macro game you HAVE to expo and be up a base. Its just how the game works. Just because you are a zerg doesn't mean anything. If you are staying 1 base you are going all in. If you do not kill the protoss or do enough economic damage you are going to lose unless he lets you take expansion and get back into the game. Its not adapt its smart play to take an expansion. Its not even greedy, its what you have to do to keep up with protoss. Protoss can nexus first and zerg can do nothing unless he 8 pools vs that or all in and hope he doesn't defend properly. On taldarim/shakuras its very popular for a toss to do it. So why do an all in when you can keep up economically?
I think this is the wrong approach to the problem.
Hatch first can also be punished economically by protoss. It allows them to open nexus first and delay their first cannon until after gateway and 2 gas without cutting probes (after the initial cut for the 15 nexus obviously) which leaves zerg just as behind or maybe more than if protoss opened nexus first against a 14pool or a gas first.
If it's a forge expand friendly map such as belshir/tal darim/shakuras why not open 11 overpool? It's basically a free win against a nexus first. It forces protoss to go forge cannon nexus while cutting a lot of probes.
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On August 22 2011 11:28 warcralft wrote:
use your 1st queen to spread creep and make a spine to destroy the pylons. Just double expo after this and you'll be fine.
And how will you kill the cannons behind? I doubt you'll be fine.
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best thing to do is to 11overpool so that if he does do this you can just kill it. But otherwise have a protoss buddy of your FFE and get a probe to your base cross map and close positions, mark the exact time his probe gets to your ramp. Remember those times exactly and have a drone always patrol there if you plan on hatch first.
I know you don't "want" to patrol a drone, but there is a difference between want and have to. You have to do certain things to make sure you don't auto-lose. If you plan on hatch first then you have to deny cannon rush, personally hatch first vs protoss is a dumb idea because not a single protoss will allow you to hatch first.
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11 overpool do nothing to stop the 3 pylon wall at bottom of ramp. with cannons behind. I thought thats what this thread was about.
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The only reactive thing you could do is really this:
Take about 8 drones and mineral walk-attack a pylon. Depending on how many drones you sent it takes about 4 repitiions.
If you get to kill 1 pylon you can just focus the other stuff with lings / kill the probe etc.
I don't really know why you are saying that this doesn't work, it always works for me.
You can also, to be very safe, take off a drone to attack the scouting probe. That usually prevents such kind of things. I wouldn't recommend it however.
Don't just do stupid builds just because you might get pylon blocked. It's not worth it, because if toss doesn't go for something like that you're way way behind.
Just don't forget to look at your minimap and what the probe does.
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lets forget about the openings and such ... and micro-ing drones ...
its happened ... 3 pylons with cannons behind you are there ...
what is the best way to deal with that ?
we should use this thread to find a solution for the problem ... i know there is something here ... as stated before ... the protoss has sunk 1300 minerals ... how do we effectively punish that to get ahead or unleast on even footing ... anything less is useless ...
one of my idea would be to get a macro hatch in your base ... get both geysers asap ... tech to laid and get drop and overlord speed asap as well as a lot of lings ... would it work ? ... i guess you would get into the protoss base when he is done saturating his bases but he has no or few troops ... at worst he should have a stargate but still you should be able to get him down a lot ... other option would be nydus but that can be spotted and denied ... i feel like drop would be certain ...
ideas ?
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The problem with that is that the correct follow up from the Protoss should be a very fast 6-gate all-in so he should get units in time or near enough to. Or alternatively he'll sack his main and just go kill you.
btw, the reason Protoss canon-rushes a hatch-1st is because if he doesn't, he's basically accepting playing from behind for the whole game and it's HARD to catch up as Toss especially seeing as how most Protoss are struggling with this matchup at the moment.
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well i think my all-in response to his cannon all-in will deny any additional all-in he might do should my all-in fail ... O_o
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I have problems with this also, I think everyone does from time to time.
To be clear, it can happen at any time and you have to make sure that you are prepared for such things. Doing the 'safe' speedling expand doesn't guarantee your safety from this type of thing either. Protoss can still plant cannons and pylons to contain you while they freely expand and macro up a powerful economy leaving you way too far behind to catch up.
Had a game just last night where I did the safe speedling expand and protoss contained me within my own base not at the bottom of the ramp but actually build within my own base at the top of the ramp so many pylons and cannons I thought he was all in with this cannon attempt. I broke it down eventually but by the time I did he already had 2 very strong bases and 6 warpgates already up and just crushed me.
The lesson is just assume this is going to happen every time and be very diligent in preventing it.
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theres been a few times this has been done to me also, except i blocked the 3rd pylon, but he just added two more. One way of beating this is to immedialtly build 3 spine crawlers, get a roach , and saturate your mineral and gas. Also find out where this bases is, he'll most likely be forge FE. Get OL out in front ofhis base and while you are breaking down his pylons u get to lair tech. once its safe, move your 3 spine crawlers infront of his base and build roaches behind this, after u saturate. get a expo or macro hatch.. i suggest expo. you can over power him pretty easily after this with support of the spines infront of his base. He won't have a large army if he think he is safe.
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You guys need to remember it's not really about resources, it's about larva. The fact that the Protoss may be even or even behind in resources after making a pylon wall and cannoning is irrelevant. When he forces a hatch cancel, even if you immediately restart the hatchery somewhere else you lose at least 15 larva that that hatch would have spawned if it had completed. That 15 larva lost means you either don't have 15 drones or don't have 15 roaches - you're straight up dead either way.
This is also why building a hatch at the Toss natural, canceling it, and then putting an evo chamber there to block the expo is terrible. It costs the Protoss far more resources than it costs you, but delaying your own second hatch costs you larva which you simply can't afford.
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Question: why couldnt he just cancel the hatch? Thats 75 minerals lost + a later expansion, but surely the 450 minerals for a pylon + forge makes up for it?
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In pic 1 the probe has taken 1 hit from the drone. In pic 2 the probe has taken 2 hits from the drone. Instead of controlling the drone to attack the probe for the second time, move past the probe and block the pylon wall.
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still no solution,
lets not give up on this thread ...
i hate having protoss get a free win if he managed to get in 3 - 5 pylons ...
ideas please  ...
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On August 23 2011 15:46 DMaster wrote:still no solution, lets not give up on this thread ... i hate having protoss get a free win if he managed to get in 3 - 5 pylons ... ideas please ...
On August 23 2011 11:42 SpiciestZerg wrote:
Question: why couldnt he just cancel the hatch? Thats 75 minerals lost + a later expansion, but surely the 450 minerals for a pylon + forge makes up for it? I'm still wondering this.
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If you go pool first you can break it, even if he successfully walls the ramp (though you should try to avoid it anyway).
Hit the middle pylon with 3 drones until your lings spawn, then switch out for the lings. This lets you kill the pylon before the cannon finishes so you can get lings and drones out to stop it.
It really helps to have one drone on the outside to annoy his probe or stop a 2nd layer wall.
this can hold even with a pool as late as 16, so you can do 16 pool 15 hatch.
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On August 23 2011 00:45 EvilZergling wrote:
I have problems with this also, I think everyone does from time to time.
To be clear, it can happen at any time and you have to make sure that you are prepared for such things. Doing the 'safe' speedling expand doesn't guarantee your safety from this type of thing either. Protoss can still plant cannons and pylons to contain you while they freely expand and macro up a powerful economy leaving you way too far behind to catch up.
Had a game just last night where I did the safe speedling expand and protoss contained me within my own base not at the bottom of the ramp but actually build within my own base at the top of the ramp so many pylons and cannons I thought he was all in with this cannon attempt. I broke it down eventually but by the time I did he already had 2 very strong bases and 6 warpgates already up and just crushed me.
The lesson is just assume this is going to happen every time and be very diligent in preventing it.
Was it me? It was a game where you want mutas off 1 base against my phoenix play (wtf) then mass roach off 1 base against my voidrays. High masters, right?
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EPT
