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***Please don't post if you're just going to say "have drone patrol at the bottom of the ramp"***
In the Idra interview just posted he says, "On Tal'Darim Altar, I went 15 Hatch, aiming for a macro game, and got cannon rushed. The Pylon block can always be defended, I just made a mistake with my Drone control."
I'm pretty sure he didn't mean that he forgot to patrol a drone at his choke. So what could he have done differently to prevent the pylon wall? In my experience, the drone is always behind the probe as it's chasing it, and if the probe starts building a pylon wall, your drone can't sprint in front of it and block the last pylon (since they move the same speed). So how could he have prevented that with better control?
UPDATE
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AS4ok.jpg)
MC has purposefully run his probe downwards and then upwards so that IdrA's drone is away from where he wants to build his pylons. Also, IdrA's drone is quite a bit behind because it has just attempted to attack, which causes the drone to stop for a moment.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/i8Vc6.jpg)
MC quickly builds the first two pylons and IdrA attempts to block the 3rd, but is blocked by the probe.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/msgQe.jpg)
The drone is fighting to get past the probe...
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RHNnf.jpg)
...but it's no use.
My question is could this have been prevented reactively (i.e. without preemptively patrolling a drone at the choke). If it can be prevented, how so? IdrA was a tiny bit slow on his reaction time, if he had been a half second faster, would that have made a difference? Mineral walking could have helped, but that's not possible on all maps (the minerals are too far away to click on quickly enough). Help me out TL.
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There isn't a way... i know you said not to mention drone patrol at the ramp, but honestly thats the only way to prevent three pylons from blocking your ramp.
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If he had the drone go hold position by the wall so that he couldn't get the third pylon off he would have blocked it. His drone was behind the probe, but the probe still has to go 3 points to put down the 3 pylons. If you have a drone following it you will get it to block the third one before he can do it.
at least that is what I do and it never fails me unless I'm not paying attention.
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High level zerg players usually know the timing for when protoss players have enough minerals to make a wall and will send a drone at that time in an effort to block the choke before the wall can be completely built.
If he was talking about the game against MC at MLG, I remember specially that IdrA simply right clicked his drone on the probe allowing MC to build his wall in such a way that the drone would not block it. He just failed to manually move his drone in front of the probe when the wall started.
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On July 06 2011 10:43 blade55555 wrote:
If he had the drone go hold position by the wall so that he couldn't get the third pylon off he would have blocked it. His drone was behind the probe, but the probe still has to go 3 points to put down the 3 pylons. If you have a drone following it you will get it to block the third one before he can do it.
at least that is what I do and it never fails me unless I'm not paying attention.
This. I have a drone chase the probe if I haven't found his base yet (eg. scouted last on a 4 player map), usually I send out drone at 14 to scout. So with the chasing drone, if you see the probe even approach the ramp you have to be watching carefully, right when the first pylon goes down you want to move your drone to where the 3rd pylon will be and hold position. Most likely he's going to try and kill your drone so pull 3 or so-ish drones for now, two chase probe, one hold position on bottom ramp where 3rd pylon should be, send your injured drone back to mine. If he cancels pylons you're good, but keep a drone at bottom of ramp anyway. If he goes ahead and tries to cannon when the ramp isn't blocked, pull drones, but you should be more than fine by this point.
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Why do most zerg assume that it's their right to play greedy anyways? I know it's standard to expo before your opponent, but if you end up getting blocked then build up an army, destroy the wall and laugh at the 300 minerals the toss just wasted. You now have an army which he must respond to, and an option of putting on pressure or expanding yourself. Just because you're zerg doesn't mean you can expect to expand at the start of every matchup, you have to adapt - this is coming from a zerg player.
Still, if it bothers you so much as others have said you don't need to have a patrolling drone, just place one to block off the last pylon. If you're expecting it you can even just place one here as standard to guarantee the expansion not be blocked off - one drone not mining vs not being able to expand.
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On July 06 2011 10:43 blade55555 wrote:
If he had the drone go hold position by the wall so that he couldn't get the third pylon off he would have blocked it. His drone was behind the probe, but the probe still has to go 3 points to put down the 3 pylons. If you have a drone following it you will get it to block the third one before he can do it.
at least that is what I do and it never fails me unless I'm not paying attention.
Thanks for the comments everyone, and yes this is what I normally try to do. But in the IdrA vs. MC game and in some of my games, I find that the wall is built so quickly that you can't block it reactively. In the game vs. MC, he waits for his probe to be in a spot where he can build the first two instantly and then he just has to build the 3rd before the drone, which is behind the probe, gets to the final pylon spot.
I've had games where I see the first pylon go down and instantly move command to where the 3rd is going down and my drone doesn't make it in time. So I guess my question is, can you stop a pylon wall reactively, or do you have to hold position your chasing drone on the ramp as soon as you see the probe get near it.
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On July 06 2011 12:28 Sanctimonius wrote:
Why do most zerg assume that it's their right to play greedy anyways? I know it's standard to expo before your opponent, but if you end up getting blocked then build up an army, destroy the wall and laugh at the 300 minerals the toss just wasted. You now have an army which he must respond to, and an option of putting on pressure or expanding yourself. Just because you're zerg doesn't mean you can expect to expand at the start of every matchup, you have to adapt - this is coming from a zerg player.
Still, if it bothers you so much as others have said you don't need to have a patrolling drone, just place one to block off the last pylon. If you're expecting it you can even just place one here as standard to guarantee the expansion not be blocked off - one drone not mining vs not being able to expand.
that is incorrect.
A protoss can nexus first and get cannons out before your lings can get there if you do anything later then a 12 or 13 pool.
If you want to play a macro game you HAVE to expo and be up a base. Its just how the game works. Just because you are a zerg doesn't mean anything. If you are staying 1 base you are going all in. If you do not kill the protoss or do enough economic damage you are going to lose unless he lets you take expansion and get back into the game. Its not adapt its smart play to take an expansion.
Its not even greedy, its what you have to do to keep up with protoss. Protoss can nexus first and zerg can do nothing unless he 8 pools vs that or all in and hope he doesn't defend properly. On taldarim/shakuras its very popular for a toss to do it. So why do an all in when you can keep up economically?
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I'm not saying you have to all-in.
Three pylons - 300 minerals. That's almost a hatch right there. Next he's made a nexus and cannons - 400+100(pylon) and if he's going for a wall off 150/300(cannons), 150(gateway) and usually another 100(pylon).
That's 1200 minerals sunk there. How many lings and roaches would you have to make to have spent that much? If you pool first (why not overpool if you're expecting to be pylon blocked?) and use lings to take down one of the pylons allowing an expansion, I don't see you as being far behind. Obviously if he has a cannon you're pushing for roaches and lings to take it down - worse but still not that far behind. If he puts down cannons, a fast expansion of his own, walls it off, he's making a huge investment - much worse off than if he simply forge fast-expanded.
Course it's not the best position to be in, but zerg shouldn't expect to be able to be greedy every game and not be punished for it at some point. I may be completely off the mark but I suspect you're not actually that far behind if you're keeping on top of macro while you get lings and roaches. I wouldn't mind seeing some timings and maths on this
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You can't put everything together by resources. Zerg is a unique race that needs to expand fast to win. If there is anything stopping the zerg from taking their 2nd expo, they will be in a devastating position.
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On July 06 2011 13:05 Cambam wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 10:43 blade55555 wrote:
If he had the drone go hold position by the wall so that he couldn't get the third pylon off he would have blocked it. His drone was behind the probe, but the probe still has to go 3 points to put down the 3 pylons. If you have a drone following it you will get it to block the third one before he can do it.
at least that is what I do and it never fails me unless I'm not paying attention. Thanks for the comments everyone, and yes this is what I normally try to do. But in the IdrA vs. MC game and in some of my games, I find that the wall is built so quickly that you can't block it reactively. In the game vs. MC, he waits for his probe to be in a spot where he can build the first two instantly and then he just has to build the 3rd before the drone, which is behind the probe, gets to the final pylon spot. I've had games where I see the first pylon go down and instantly move command to where the 3rd is going down and my drone doesn't make it in time. So I guess my question is, can you stop a pylon wall reactively, or do you have to hold position your chasing drone on the ramp as soon as you see the probe get near it.
Starcraft is a game of choices. If he decides to go for the more economic 15 hatch, he has to take into account that he won't have lings or anything to stop the wall or be ready to bust the wall and possibly the protoss. It's obviously also a choice to have your drone there anticipating a canon rush, and if you are right then you will have a decent advantage.
So basically, you have to plan ahead.
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Simple, just don't go hatchery first, problem solved. If given the option to hatch first or pool first, without any danger sure hatchery first is better but you take the risk of getting cannoned. Simple as that. That's why pool first is safer. It's all about balancing your risk vs rewards
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On July 06 2011 15:42 Sanctimonius wrote:I'm not saying you have to all-in. Three pylons - 300 minerals. That's almost a hatch right there. Next he's made a nexus and cannons - 400+100(pylon) and if he's going for a wall off 150/300(cannons), 150(gateway) and usually another 100(pylon). That's 1200 minerals sunk there. How many lings and roaches would you have to make to have spent that much? If you pool first (why not overpool if you're expecting to be pylon blocked?) and use lings to take down one of the pylons allowing an expansion, I don't see you as being far behind. Obviously if he has a cannon you're pushing for roaches and lings to take it down - worse but still not that far behind. If he puts down cannons, a fast expansion of his own, walls it off, he's making a huge investment - much worse off than if he simply forge fast-expanded. Course it's not the best position to be in, but zerg shouldn't expect to be able to be greedy every game and not be punished for it at some point. I may be completely off the mark but I suspect you're not actually that far behind if you're keeping on top of macro while you get lings and roaches. I wouldn't mind seeing some timings and maths on this
the huge investment is easily recovered by using stargate to prevent the zerg to do a successful all-in and with chronoboosting probes, zerg is extremely far behind in economy
Either we make more units or drones, we can't go both, that is zerg, we are very far behind if we got pylon blocked and if protoss had gotten his expo up before ours.
The pros have their reason to go for their opening, that is why idra said he mis-micro'd the drone. He could have defended it with his own opening.
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Hmm maybe just make a Hatch cancel -> Evo Chamber on the choke and then build the hatch?
Never tried it but could be worth a try
Edit_ Forget about my stupid post.
hatch cancel = 75 mins + 75 mins for evo -> just build pool before hatch...
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On July 06 2011 12:28 Sanctimonius wrote:
Why do most zerg assume that it's their right to play greedy anyways? I know it's standard to expo before your opponent, but if you end up getting blocked then build up an army, destroy the wall and laugh at the 300 minerals the toss just wasted. You now have an army which he must respond to, and an option of putting on pressure or expanding yourself. Just because you're zerg doesn't mean you can expect to expand at the start of every matchup, you have to adapt - this is coming from a zerg player.
Still, if it bothers you so much as others have said you don't need to have a patrolling drone, just place one to block off the last pylon. If you're expecting it you can even just place one here as standard to guarantee the expansion not be blocked off - one drone not mining vs not being able to expand.
It's not a right, it's a must. Sure you can create a one-base army and break the pylons... but what next? Attack with a weak 1base attack and die? Get a very late expand and drone, letting the protoss dominate you with any form of midgame push?
There's just no option, 1base as zerg is allin and extremely easy to punish.
It's easy to count how much the protoss spent on containing the zerg, but it's not all that relevant unfortunately. Mass-lings won't break a toss cannon wall, roaches cost gas which the toss early defense doesn't. The point isn't whether or not the protoss spent very little do delay your expand, the point is that a zerg having an expo delayed too long simply can't recover. When your second base starts to get somewhat saturated, the toss will have 2 saturated bases, have started their third and still have a bigger army than you. A toss army is far more costeffective than a zerg one, once the toss get sufficiently ahead in economy, you're not going to break them.
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On July 06 2011 16:46 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 15:42 Sanctimonius wrote:I'm not saying you have to all-in. Three pylons - 300 minerals. That's almost a hatch right there. Next he's made a nexus and cannons - 400+100(pylon) and if he's going for a wall off 150/300(cannons), 150(gateway) and usually another 100(pylon). That's 1200 minerals sunk there. How many lings and roaches would you have to make to have spent that much? If you pool first (why not overpool if you're expecting to be pylon blocked?) and use lings to take down one of the pylons allowing an expansion, I don't see you as being far behind. Obviously if he has a cannon you're pushing for roaches and lings to take it down - worse but still not that far behind. If he puts down cannons, a fast expansion of his own, walls it off, he's making a huge investment - much worse off than if he simply forge fast-expanded. Course it's not the best position to be in, but zerg shouldn't expect to be able to be greedy every game and not be punished for it at some point. I may be completely off the mark but I suspect you're not actually that far behind if you're keeping on top of macro while you get lings and roaches. I wouldn't mind seeing some timings and maths on this the huge investment is easily recovered by using stargate to prevent the zerg to do a successful all-in and with chronoboosting probes, zerg is extremely far behind in economy Either we make more units or drones, we can't go both, that is zerg, we are very far behind if we got pylon blocked and if protoss had gotten his expo up before ours. The pros have their reason to go for their opening, that is why idra said he mis-micro'd the drone. He could have defended it with his own opening.
So the cover for an huge outlay is to spend more on something that can defend slowly a Zerg attack? Stargate only gives you a bit of map control unless you put a lot of resources into it.
Why are people saying the only option is to go allin? Expo once you have the troops to break the wall. My point is that the toss puts a huge outlay into the wallin, then into making sure any counter attack you make is not successful. That's fine, spend your minerals on a hatch and drones.
People are mistaking having a second base as toss as being the same as having two fully saturated bases. Yes, it sucks that he gets his base up before yours. You still have been doing your macro and will probably have more drones than he has probes. When your natural is up then you can transfer more drones than you normally have.
I'm not saying this doesn't suck or put you behind, I'm simply trying to say that it's not the end of the world and you have options.
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On July 06 2011 15:42 Sanctimonius wrote:I'm not saying you have to all-in. Three pylons - 300 minerals. That's almost a hatch right there. Next he's made a nexus and cannons - 400+100(pylon) and if he's going for a wall off 150/300(cannons), 150(gateway) and usually another 100(pylon). That's 1200 minerals sunk there. How many lings and roaches would you have to make to have spent that much? If you pool first (why not overpool if you're expecting to be pylon blocked?) and use lings to take down one of the pylons allowing an expansion, I don't see you as being far behind. Obviously if he has a cannon you're pushing for roaches and lings to take it down - worse but still not that far behind. If he puts down cannons, a fast expansion of his own, walls it off, he's making a huge investment - much worse off than if he simply forge fast-expanded. Course it's not the best position to be in, but zerg shouldn't expect to be able to be greedy every game and not be punished for it at some point. I may be completely off the mark but I suspect you're not actually that far behind if you're keeping on top of macro while you get lings and roaches. I wouldn't mind seeing some timings and maths on this
The problem is that if you overpool the protoss won't pylon contain or cannon you. He will just forge fast expand making him safe to your one base army while giving him a far better economy. Saying your not behind when you go overpool against a good FFE is just silly. If your afraid of getting cannoned or contained the best option imo is to pool>hatch or gas>pool>sling hatch. It gives a decent economy. Getting an early pool puts you so far behind that you have to do damage against the toss which means you have to get there before his wall is up and as demonstrated by the Huk vs Moon dreamhack final that isn't always possible even when you go for a 6pool.
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On July 06 2011 17:14 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 12:28 Sanctimonius wrote:
Why do most zerg assume that it's their right to play greedy anyways? I know it's standard to expo before your opponent, but if you end up getting blocked then build up an army, destroy the wall and laugh at the 300 minerals the toss just wasted. You now have an army which he must respond to, and an option of putting on pressure or expanding yourself. Just because you're zerg doesn't mean you can expect to expand at the start of every matchup, you have to adapt - this is coming from a zerg player.
Still, if it bothers you so much as others have said you don't need to have a patrolling drone, just place one to block off the last pylon. If you're expecting it you can even just place one here as standard to guarantee the expansion not be blocked off - one drone not mining vs not being able to expand. It's not a right, it's a must. Sure you can create a one-base army and break the pylons... but what next? Attack with a weak 1base attack and die? Get a very late expand and drone, letting the protoss dominate you with any form of midgame push? There's just no option, 1base as zerg is allin and extremely easy to punish. It's easy to count how much the protoss spent on containing the zerg, but it's not all that relevant unfortunately. Mass-lings won't break a toss cannon wall, roaches cost gas which the toss early defense doesn't. The point isn't whether or not the protoss spent very little do delay your expand, the point is that a zerg having an expo delayed too long simply can't recover. When your second base starts to get somewhat saturated, the toss will have 2 saturated bases, have started their third and still have a bigger army than you. A toss army is far more costeffective than a zerg one, once the toss get sufficiently ahead in economy, you're not going to break them.
I agree with just EVERYTHING you said here.
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On July 06 2011 10:37 Cambam wrote:
***Please don't post if you're just going to say "have drone patrol at the bottom of the ramp"***
Why shouldn't we post the only answer there is ?
Preventing the wall from going down with drones is really the only way to stop this if you are planing a hatch first build, unless you want to play from behind or attempt some crazy 1 base nydus all-in or something.
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OP did u watch the game? MC's scouting probe was in idra's main, a second probe came and built the wall. Idra just thought MC only had 1 probe until it was too late.
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On July 06 2011 18:09 CellTech wrote:
OP did u watch the game? MC's scouting probe was in idra's main, a second probe came and built the wall. Idra just thought MC only had 1 probe until it was too late.
Acually MC built the wall with the first scouting probe that was in the main, and then used his second probe to build the cannons.
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Well this strategy of blocking off the ramp on other maps was so powerful that most pro maps now have a neutral supply depot blocking this tactic, or other terrain features making it less of a deal.
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Shrug - since so many are arguing to the contrary then I'm probably wrong. Still I wish people would actually read my post through - I did say you were behind, I just said that I don't think you're as far behind as people are making out 
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On July 06 2011 18:13 Dragar wrote:
Well this strategy of blocking off the ramp on other maps was so powerful that most pro maps now have a neutral supply depot blocking this tactic, or other terrain features making it less of a deal.
That's cause you couldn't micro and stop it if the ramp was blockable with 2 pylons. With 3, you can manually move your drone when he puts down the first pylon, to where the third needs to be, and on hold position, you won't be in danger of being blocked.
With two pylons you can't get into position if following fast enough to block the 2nd pylon.
You can however block the third.
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i was watching the Korean weekly last night and one thing i saw that seem to be the core of facing a polyon block.
1. try and block there expo themselves, it cost 75 minerals and 300 starting to do so, oh you have that spare from his blocking, so more poylons he places to block the more behind he is, IF HE GOING FE!
2 DO NOT PANIC, just carry on your build, you'll get to make your expo soon enough
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you could get inbase hatch, and out macro his one base untill you can break out and take your nat
you could start getting upgrade +armor or something.
-silver/plat eu player
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Because of pylon blocking and the possibility of cannon rushes i've completely stopped hatchfirst against Protoss. I think i find myself in a pretty good position with 14 pool, hatch as soon as possible.
Possible meaning you can build it as soon as scouting has confirmed there is no forge. Otherwise you should wait with hatching until 4 lings are in production.
After that i prefer to do a variation of the Spanishiwa no gas build with carefully scouting the map and the enemies ramp and relying on 4 queens and (if needed) a bunch of spine crawlers. I automatically build an evolution chamber to narrow my ramp for runbys and to be prepared for dts that can come around 7:30-7:45
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On July 06 2011 18:14 Sanctimonius wrote:Shrug - since so many are arguing to the contrary then I'm probably wrong. Still I wish people would actually read my post through - I did say you were behind, I just said that I don't think you're as far behind as people are making out
Well, you are.
Because you can't break out until you either:
- have roaches.
- banelings
- get creep far enough out and use spine crawlers.
In the mean time, he will have 2 finished nexus and cannons, working on his chosen two gate push that will destroy you, with enough defense that you can't break it if he plays decent.
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On July 06 2011 18:19 TigerKarl wrote:
Because of pylon blocking and the possibility of cannon rushes i've completely stopped hatchfirst against Protoss. I think i find myself in a pretty good position with 14 pool, hatch as soon as possible.
I do what I like to call the 'Idra' build ... 15 pool, 17 - move 2 to expo, if I can get hatch down, good, if not, gas, overlord (16 supply when pool finish, queen immediately, then 1 or 2 larvae for lings, into expo.
Because he was the first I saw doing it, not sure who originated it, but works fine for me.
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On July 06 2011 18:02 Sanctimonius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 16:46 ETisME wrote:On July 06 2011 15:42 Sanctimonius wrote:I'm not saying you have to all-in. Three pylons - 300 minerals. That's almost a hatch right there. Next he's made a nexus and cannons - 400+100(pylon) and if he's going for a wall off 150/300(cannons), 150(gateway) and usually another 100(pylon). That's 1200 minerals sunk there. How many lings and roaches would you have to make to have spent that much? If you pool first (why not overpool if you're expecting to be pylon blocked?) and use lings to take down one of the pylons allowing an expansion, I don't see you as being far behind. Obviously if he has a cannon you're pushing for roaches and lings to take it down - worse but still not that far behind. If he puts down cannons, a fast expansion of his own, walls it off, he's making a huge investment - much worse off than if he simply forge fast-expanded. Course it's not the best position to be in, but zerg shouldn't expect to be able to be greedy every game and not be punished for it at some point. I may be completely off the mark but I suspect you're not actually that far behind if you're keeping on top of macro while you get lings and roaches. I wouldn't mind seeing some timings and maths on this the huge investment is easily recovered by using stargate to prevent the zerg to do a successful all-in and with chronoboosting probes, zerg is extremely far behind in economy Either we make more units or drones, we can't go both, that is zerg, we are very far behind if we got pylon blocked and if protoss had gotten his expo up before ours. The pros have their reason to go for their opening, that is why idra said he mis-micro'd the drone. He could have defended it with his own opening. So the cover for an huge outlay is to spend more on something that can defend slowly a Zerg attack? Stargate only gives you a bit of map control unless you put a lot of resources into it. Why are people saying the only option is to go allin? Expo once you have the troops to break the wall. My point is that the toss puts a huge outlay into the wallin, then into making sure any counter attack you make is not successful. That's fine, spend your minerals on a hatch and drones. People are mistaking having a second base as toss as being the same as having two fully saturated bases. Yes, it sucks that he gets his base up before yours. You still have been doing your macro and will probably have more drones than he has probes. When your natural is up then you can transfer more drones than you normally have. I'm not saying this doesn't suck or put you behind, I'm simply trying to say that it's not the end of the world and you have options.
The reason is that zerg is already extremely far behind once the hatch is blocked for so long and forced us to get more units to deal with the wall-off.
I think you are underestimating/not understanding timing push. His natural is up earlier means he can saturate it faster as well as powering up quicker, leading to an earlier 6 gate timing push for example.
The quick 3rd is helpful only when his push is not hit at a good timing, allowing the zerg to get it semi-saturated and allowed zerg to go unit production mode earlier.
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if you saw the match, idra was attacking a pylon with 4 drones even if he had room for 6. he eventually pointed 6 drones to the weaker pylon but too late.if you attack with 6 drones right away you probably break the wall in time. i suppose this is the mistake he was talking about
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On July 06 2011 18:36 HALFKNOT wrote:
if you saw the match, idra was attacking a pylon with 4 drones even if he had room for 6. he eventually pointed 6 drones to the weaker pylon but too late.if you attack with 6 drones right away you probably break the wall in time. i suppose this is the mistake he was talking about
Pulling 6 drones off mining isn't the way to go. Protoss just has to build another pylon (or an extra cannon as MC did) behind it and you've lost much more than 100/150 minerals worth of mining time.
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wanna test? are you on EU?
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On July 06 2011 19:15 HALFKNOT wrote:
wanna test? are you on EU?
Sure, Geiko.813. I'll probably be playing some time this afternoon.
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if u run to the location of the last pylon u will be able to get there before the probe, since the probe has to stop everytime hes gonna build a pylon.
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There is no real answer unfortunately sure you can block the third pylon but then what? Pull all your drones to destroy the other two pylons. It takes too long and a cannon could easily go up. And during that time you're losing out on like 300 minerals and even more if the protoss throws a cannon. Zerg has no real answer to this. We're not greedy by taking a hatch first its just how the game works. If we go 14 pool 15 hatch which is the most "safest" (even though there are no safe builds) build out there the protoss will still have an economic and expansion lead. When our expansion is 1/3 done theirs is complete.
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On July 06 2011 19:32 Olsson wrote:
There is no real answer unfortunately sure you can block the third pylon but then what? Pull all your drones to destroy the other two pylons. It takes too long and a cannon could easily go up. And during that time you're losing out on like 300 minerals and even more if the protoss throws a cannon. Zerg has no real answer to this. We're not greedy by taking a hatch first its just how the game works. If we go 14 pool 15 hatch which is the most "safest" (even though there are no safe builds) build out there the protoss will still have an economic and expansion lead. When our expansion is 1/3 done theirs is complete.
Stop balance whining please... If you block the third pylon, you just have to pull one or two more drones to prevent the probe from completing the wall off. If he tries to throw down cannons even without the wall, you just pull 2 or 3 more drones and kill the cannons. At this point protoss player is behind as he has spent ressources and not prevented you from expanding.
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On July 06 2011 18:05 Marsupian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 15:42 Sanctimonius wrote:I'm not saying you have to all-in. Three pylons - 300 minerals. That's almost a hatch right there. Next he's made a nexus and cannons - 400+100(pylon) and if he's going for a wall off 150/300(cannons), 150(gateway) and usually another 100(pylon). That's 1200 minerals sunk there. How many lings and roaches would you have to make to have spent that much? If you pool first (why not overpool if you're expecting to be pylon blocked?) and use lings to take down one of the pylons allowing an expansion, I don't see you as being far behind. Obviously if he has a cannon you're pushing for roaches and lings to take it down - worse but still not that far behind. If he puts down cannons, a fast expansion of his own, walls it off, he's making a huge investment - much worse off than if he simply forge fast-expanded. Course it's not the best position to be in, but zerg shouldn't expect to be able to be greedy every game and not be punished for it at some point. I may be completely off the mark but I suspect you're not actually that far behind if you're keeping on top of macro while you get lings and roaches. I wouldn't mind seeing some timings and maths on this The problem is that if you overpool the protoss won't pylon contain or cannon you. He will just forge fast expand making him safe to your one base army while giving him a far better economy. Saying your not behind when you go overpool against a good FFE is just silly. If your afraid of getting cannoned or contained the best option imo is to pool>hatch or gas>pool>sling hatch. It gives a decent economy. Getting an early pool puts you so far behind that you have to do damage against the toss which means you have to get there before his wall is up and as demonstrated by the Huk vs Moon dreamhack final that isn't always possible even when you go for a 6pool.
Since when does overpool lead to a one base army? Overpool provides an early Queen which provides additional larvae, similar to 14/15 hatch, only slightly less economical and much safer. Why are you comparing an opening almost as economical as a 14 hatch to a 6 pool?
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On July 06 2011 13:23 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 12:28 Sanctimonius wrote:
Why do most zerg assume that it's their right to play greedy anyways? I know it's standard to expo before your opponent, but if you end up getting blocked then build up an army, destroy the wall and laugh at the 300 minerals the toss just wasted. You now have an army which he must respond to, and an option of putting on pressure or expanding yourself. Just because you're zerg doesn't mean you can expect to expand at the start of every matchup, you have to adapt - this is coming from a zerg player.
Still, if it bothers you so much as others have said you don't need to have a patrolling drone, just place one to block off the last pylon. If you're expecting it you can even just place one here as standard to guarantee the expansion not be blocked off - one drone not mining vs not being able to expand. that is incorrect. A protoss can nexus first and get cannons out before your lings can get there if you do anything later then a 12 or 13 pool. If you want to play a macro game you HAVE to expo and be up a base. Its just how the game works. Just because you are a zerg doesn't mean anything. If you are staying 1 base you are going all in. If you do not kill the protoss or do enough economic damage you are going to lose unless he lets you take expansion and get back into the game. Its not adapt its smart play to take an expansion. Its not even greedy, its what you have to do to keep up with protoss. Protoss can nexus first and zerg can do nothing unless he 8 pools vs that or all in and hope he doesn't defend properly. On taldarim/shakuras its very popular for a toss to do it. So why do an all in when you can keep up economically?
This. Seriously P nexus first in PvZ on some maps is way too safe imo. And they can also deny your 15h easily.
If a T 1rax FE or even 15 cc you can just roll him with 2base ling/bling.
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This may sound unpopular, but I firmly believe that 15h will auto-lose to any competent cannon rusher on maps like Tal'Darim Altar and Shakuras Plateau. There's simply no way to stop a cannon rush once the pylon's been started on the low ground, even if you scout it, even if you pull every single drone. I'd recommend looking at a different eco build that involves making an earlier spawning pool.
Also, Sanctimonous is posting a ton of non-sense in this thread about Z building up a pathetic 1 base army, breaking out, and then trying to pressure the P? The problem, Sanct, is that you're forgetting that other races have the ability to build an army and produce workers simultaneously. With Zerg, it's one or the other, always. A P will make the same amount of units while expanding whether or not you're doing any form of early pressure, it's not like he's losing a lot by being forced to deal with your weak 1 base army.
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On July 06 2011 21:12 Destiny wrote:
This may sound unpopular, but I firmly believe that 15h will auto-lose to any competent cannon rusher on maps like Tal'Darim Altar and Shakuras Plateau. There's simply no way to stop a cannon rush once the pylon's been started on the low ground, even if you scout it, even if you pull every single drone. I'd recommend looking at a different eco build that involves making an earlier spawning pool.
Also, Sanctimonous is posting a ton of non-sense in this thread about Z building up a pathetic 1 base army, breaking out, and then trying to pressure the P? The problem, Sanct, is that you're forgetting that other races have the ability to build an army and produce workers simultaneously. With Zerg, it's one or the other, always. A P will make the same amount of units while expanding whether or not you're doing any form of early pressure, it's not like he's losing a lot by being forced to deal with your weak 1 base army.
I always go for cannon rushes on these maps as my forge first expand gets an early forge anyways. However if I scout the hatch first and two drones blocking the choke I won't even try to wall it off.
If you are referring to the old school "pylons and cannons behind the natural's mineral line" rush with eventually chronoed zealot on the way, then it is indeed stoppable, but zergs have to pull some certain amount of drones do shut it down. All in all it depends on micro but it is definitely not "auto-lose".
And +1 for Sanctimonous posting non sense in this thread ^^
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You don't have to wall off, that's silly, don't try it. Start 1 pylon on the low ground, then make 1 cannon next to the pylon. Then move to the high ground and begin making cannons up there, while the low-ground cannon covers the new ones morphing in.
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The cannon rush's effectiveness varies quite a lot depending on how much he prioritizes starting his nexus or not.
i think overpooling and scouting with the gas cancel lets you have a drone in his base to see the forge building 2/3 of the times.
Usually, whenever you see the 2+ pylon 2+ cannon madness begin, it means he has not started his nexus yet. That means you can at least build a hatch in his natural and now you are at least even in bases but spent less stuff in useless shit (1 pylon and 2 cannons is more expensive than a hatch.). And maybe he even cut probes to build the pylon/cannon attack.
And now you can either ninja expand somewhere else (cancel the natural hatch that would die to cannons at the last moment in case he is planning on canceling the cannons unless you need the minerals to deny his natural) or get a roach warren before that so you can make a couple roaches at his natural before he kills the hatch. 2 roaches before he has stalkers can cause him a lot of pain. Maybe even get a queen if no more than 1 cannon is killing the hatch and put a tumor outside cannon sight range to delay his expo even longer. You can hold the queen over the tumor until it cloacks so he cant snipe it if he already has a zealot or whatever.
It's not like you are going to be in an advantage, but you can really mess with his plan. If you are better at improvising or diverging from standard plans you can pull amazing wins :D. Specially agains noobs that can copy extremely effective builds. Once you take them out of their known scenario, they fall apart.
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On July 06 2011 22:12 Destiny wrote:
You don't have to wall off, that's silly, don't try it. Start 1 pylon on the low ground, then make 1 cannon next to the pylon. Then move to the high ground and begin making cannons up there, while the low-ground cannon covers the new ones morphing in.
Have you tried defending that many times in a row against a training partner? Maybe there is a reasonable response.
I'd try bringing shittons of drones to the ramp, ready to hunt the probe that will try to put the pylon or cannon that will give sight. If he effectively puts the pylon, you should at least have been able to kill the probe. Then maybe you would have to hit that pylon/cannon just enough so that a spine that you might have started later than his cannon wins the static defense duel.
Besides, cannon rushing in that way (non blocking, and not in range of "all" paths to his base) leaves a more wide open door to a counterattack, right?
And if you see you will not be able to hold it, then just cancel and rebuild at your third. Taldarim on ladder has the rocks so you are fucked. But without the rocks it's not too bad.
I know i've stopped some cannon rushes in this way. But also maybe the cannon rushes were too far from optimal.
This is the kind of stuff to try 500 times with a training partner.
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On July 06 2011 18:05 Marsupian wrote:
The problem is that if you overpool the protoss won't pylon contain or cannon you. He will just forge fast expand making him safe to your one base army while giving him a far better economy. Saying your not behind when you go overpool against a good FFE is just silly. If your afraid of getting cannoned or contained the best option imo is to pool>hatch or gas>pool>sling hatch. It gives a decent economy. Getting an early pool puts you so far behind that you have to do damage against the toss which means you have to get there before his wall is up and as demonstrated by the Huk vs Moon dreamhack final that isn't always possible even when you go for a 6pool.
But overpool is only minorly less mineral efficient than 14/14, and has better larvae production? Frankly, 15hatch is pretty much dead v P anyway, and hell even Nestea is going 14/14 against terran. Frankly, I don't think overpool is going to set you any further behind than anything else against an FFE
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On July 06 2011 22:12 Destiny wrote:
You don't have to wall off, that's silly, don't try it. Start 1 pylon on the low ground, then make 1 cannon next to the pylon. Then move to the high ground and begin making cannons up there, while the low-ground cannon covers the new ones morphing in.
Wow, yeah indeed I can see how this type of cannon rushing can be effective. Especially on TalDarim where it is waaayy to long to pull drones. I'll add testing this to my to-do list and come back when I have a better opinion ^^
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For this reason, I never move my overlord away on this map. Instead I position both my starting overlords so that I will see if anything is made.
When I see a low ground pylon started, it's handled like any other cannon rush.
You just have to see it before the ground cannon is started.
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On July 06 2011 21:12 Destiny wrote:
This may sound unpopular, but I firmly believe that 15h will auto-lose to any competent cannon rusher on maps like Tal'Darim Altar and Shakuras Plateau. There's simply no way to stop a cannon rush once the pylon's been started on the low ground, even if you scout it, even if you pull every single drone. I'd recommend looking at a different eco build that involves making an earlier spawning pool.
This is so true. Maps like Shakuras and Taldarim make ZvP sooooo much harder and even imbalanced imo. Maps like metal/xelnaga are better.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Mkn7n.jpg)
I think this kind of placement is what destiny is referring to. You obviously can't deal with it as you would a "normal" cannon rush (if you pull 5 + drone all the way down there protoss can just cancel the cannon and be miles ahead in econ)
And killing the probe is impossible with decent protoss micro (especially if you send 2 probes as any protoss does on Tal darim)
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I am a toss who loves to pylon block. And one thing I dont understand that is pretty much constantly not discussed.
As a protoss I will never ever nexus after a pylon block as there is no way you can possibly hold a properly executed one base hydra drop unless you magically assume and make 5 or 6 cannons in your main.
Breaking the wall and expanding is not an ideal response, well it assumes you take the disadvantage, but often you will be able to do good roach pressure on several maps to not be too far behind I find.
And for blocking the pylon, chasing my probe and moving it when you see the first pylon go up to block is the ideal response without doubt.
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On July 06 2011 23:15 Geiko wrote:I think this kind of placement is what destiny is referring to. You obviously can't deal with it as you would a "normal" cannon rush (if you pull 5 + drone all the way down there protoss can just cancel the cannon and be miles ahead in econ) And killing the probe is impossible with decent protoss micro (especially if you send 2 probes as any protoss does on Tal darim)
This is what I'm talking about. If you cannon rush like this on Tal'Darim Altar or Shakuras Plateau, you will always beat someone going 15h. You simply can't defend this with drones.
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On July 06 2011 23:43 Destiny wrote:
This is what I'm talking about. If you cannon rush like this on Tal'Darim Altar or Shakuras Plateau, you will always beat someone going 15h. You simply can't defend this with drones.
Yes you can.
If you don't move your overlords away, but keep them in position to see when the pylon is placed down, and then pull drones.
![[image loading]](http://s3.postimage.org/bbgsu18k/asddsa.jpg)
(big version of the image)
But you can't defend it if you don't see the first pylon going up, that is correct.
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On July 06 2011 23:49 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 23:43 Destiny wrote:
This is what I'm talking about. If you cannon rush like this on Tal'Darim Altar or Shakuras Plateau, you will always beat someone going 15h. You simply can't defend this with drones. Yes you can. If you don't move your overlords away, but keep them in position to see when the pylon is placed down, and then pull drones. (big version of the image)
And as was said originally, pulling 4-5 drones that distance puts the protoss hugely ahead with a pylon cancel. Probably ahead even without the pylon cancel tbh.
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On July 06 2011 23:49 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 23:43 Destiny wrote:
This is what I'm talking about. If you cannon rush like this on Tal'Darim Altar or Shakuras Plateau, you will always beat someone going 15h. You simply can't defend this with drones. Yes you can. If you don't move your overlords away, but keep them in position to see when the pylon is placed down, and then pull drones. (big version of the image)But you can't defend it if you don't see the first pylon going up, that is correct.
You can't defend it without loosing the eco race hard. And honestly 4-5 drones is not enough - he put 2 cannons low ground then what do you do?
What if he places another on high ground shortly after?
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On July 06 2011 23:53 KaiserJohan wrote:
You can't defend it without loosing the eco race hard. And honestly 4-5 drones is not enough - he put 2 cannons low ground then what do you do?
What if he places another on high ground shortly after?
Obviously you will be at a disadvantage.
But it's not an auto loss right there. You are not forced to cancel the hatch, you just won't have the economy to get 2 queens at once, just one, and you will have to chose to gamble on a fast third or a two base defense where you crush him when he moves out on the map.
Personally I prefer trying for fast third with +1 melee upgrade speedlings and a really late lair, with at least one additional queen. The reason is that when you decide to make units, you don't need as many drones, and you just get 200 gas, then don't get gas for a while. As a result, your initial setback still allows you to produce a lot of units, unlike if you chose to go for roaches or lair tech units.
It may change at a higher level - I am mid master on EU.
edit: Now, getting a pylon block up, that's auto loss.
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a drone mines 5 minerals/ 8seconds so 37,5 minerlas/ minute.
it takes 4 drones to kill a cannon. that leads us to 150 minerals / minute (4 drones pulled out) which is about 1 pylon (100) + 1 canceled cannon (25% of 150 is 37,5) =~ 140 minerals.
however, this is just theory which not applies with 100% accuracy because:
- you'll pull 8 drones cause of the long distance.
* if protoss gives up here and cancels the cannon you'll end up behind about 150 minerals but with an expo running.
* if protoss goes on with his plan and builds more cannons, he'll cut probes so it gets about even in terms of economy supposing you keep building drones and you keep your hatch safe.
im not sure if you can really hold the hatch as i never dealt with this situation before but there is a chance you can.
just stop saying "miles ahead" based on shit
also if the probe goes on the high ground while you work on the cannons you'll probably get the pylon. the pylon has 400 life and 1 armor. the drone has 5 attack (4 because of the pylon's armor) and 1,5 attack speed. 8 drones kill the pylon in like 19 seconds while the high ground cannon completes in 40s.
w/e i want to try it out vs a toss who can execute it correctly and has the time to retry a few times if i fuck up my drone micro
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On July 07 2011 00:34 HALFKNOT wrote:
a drone mines 5 minerals/ 8seconds so 37,5 minerlas/ minute.
it takes 4 drones to kill a cannon. that leads us to 150 minerals / minute (4 drones pulled out) which is about 1 pylon (100) + 1 canceled cannon (25% of 150 is 37,5) =~ 140 minerals.
however, this is just theory which not applies with 100% accuracy because:
- you'll pull 8 drones cause of the long distance.
* if protoss gives up here and cancels the cannon you'll end up behind about 150 minerals but with an expo running.
* if protoss goes on with his plan and builds more cannons, he'll cut probes so it gets about even in terms of economy supposing you keep building drones and you keep your hatch safe.
im not sure if you can really hold the hatch as i never dealt with this situation before but there is a chance you can.
just stop saying "miles ahead" based on shit
also if the probe goes on the high ground while you work on the cannons you'll probably get the pylon. the pylon has 400 life and 1 armor. the drone has 5 attack (4 because of the pylon's armor) and 1,5 attack speed. 8 drones kill the pylon in like 19 seconds while the high ground cannon completes in 40s.
w/e i want to try it out vs a toss who can execute it correctly and has the time to retry a few times if i fuck up my drone micro
Sure you can stop 2 cannons but what if he is making 3 cannons?
Yes, if you pull drones the moment the pylon goes up, your 8 drones will kill his 2 cannons. But what if he places 3? or 4? The other drones you pull wont arrive in time.
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On July 06 2011 10:43 blade55555 wrote:
If he had the drone go hold position by the wall so that he couldn't get the third pylon off he would have blocked it. His drone was behind the probe, but the probe still has to go 3 points to put down the 3 pylons. If you have a drone following it you will get it to block the third one before he can do it.
at least that is what I do and it never fails me unless I'm not paying attention.
This is basically how you have to do it, if you doesn't already has it on patrol or hold.
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i believe you can kill 3 cannons with 8 drones. you'll force the cancel on the 2 cannons you're working at pretty ez (or otherwise kill them and get MILES AHEAD) and then you focus your 8 drones on the 3rd. i dont know about the 4th cannon and im not willing to do the math. id rather play it out
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I believe that there are a number of one-base all-ins that defeat the wall-off if protoss follows it up by expanding. One example is nydusing one-base hydras just outside of protoss's natural.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226952
I used to use walloff strats in PvZ until I found that zergs who perform one of the correct responses cannot be defeated. The walloff slows tech and unit production so much.
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On July 06 2011 23:53 KaiserJohan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 23:49 aebriol wrote:On July 06 2011 23:43 Destiny wrote:
This is what I'm talking about. If you cannon rush like this on Tal'Darim Altar or Shakuras Plateau, you will always beat someone going 15h. You simply can't defend this with drones. Yes you can. If you don't move your overlords away, but keep them in position to see when the pylon is placed down, and then pull drones. (big version of the image)But you can't defend it if you don't see the first pylon going up, that is correct. You can't defend it without loosing the eco race hard. And honestly 4-5 drones is not enough - he put 2 cannons low ground then what do you do? What if he places another on high ground shortly after?
Do note this is delaying his expansion a lot as well. I would say it evens the game out unless he's all out cannon rushing praying he gets one up then hold then the zerg is ahead.
Its possible to hold, just need good overlord placement and pull the right amount of drones. Most players can't pull it off, but with practice you can and you won't be behind as unless I am mistaken, this does delay his nexus by alot so if you are "behind" you will catch up very fast as his tech is behind as well (they delay gateway to do this as well).
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Updated the OP, check it out. I guess my main question is: can you stop a pylon wall 100% of the time by move commanding to the 3rd pylon spot, even if the protoss builds it very quickly and your drone is far behind because it recently attacked?
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The Protoss can always put themselves ahead if they open any sort of forge against a hatch first. Assuming the perfect response from Zerg, and that you spot low ground/wall off/hidden pylon/cannons immediately, Protoss can cancel, do the BOSS cannon rush, et cetera, to force lost mining time that, while it may not be an auto-loss as Destiny says (which, at the highest levels, I'm skeptical it isn't an autoloss against competent players), it will put you behind.
Zerg just has to go Pool or Gas first against Protoss. Yes, maybe it's pretty lame P can forge/FE first and not be punished for eco-cheese basically (because if you 6 pool it's autoloss), but due to the nature of Protoss having less units, slowly, I think nexus first kind of openings are quite weak since lack of early game pressure. It's 11 minutes of guaranteed no pressure.
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OP, yes, you stop the wall if you have your drone on patrol/hold.
The map is so big that I think having overlords just hanging around your base is a bad idea, you won't get the critical mid-game scout if it's far positions without risking later overlords on a cross-map trek to be sniped. Personally, what I do is send my first overlord to go scout, and the 9 overlord to spot for bunker/cannon shenanigans. Usually, that overlord is timed with planting the expo, and then I can move it to go scout once lings are out.
I think someone mentioned taking a fast third, which I believe is a really bad idea since they can just cannon it up. I think there was a Spanishiwa vs ONE or Deezer or some bad cheesy player, on backwater gulch where Spanishiwa tries to ninja an expansion 4 times, and a probe finds it and forces a cancel at the cost of a single pylon. Sheth's guide about drone saturation also shows that taking a third before 16+16 drones is bad economically since you can't take advantage of it, and will put you behind than if you had just taken a 'faster' third like around 44 supply.
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Wow, I hadn't even considered the micro on MC's part. Wow @_@.
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1.) Take the drone that is outside of the Pylon wall and expand to the expansion farest away from P.
2.) In your main drone like crazy, tech to nydus and connect your two bases again
3.) Most likely the follow up will be air or DT because P wants to punish Z for trying to catch up - be prepared...
Unfortunately I hadn't seen the game between MC and Idra when somebody did this against me on ladder. I was shocked / amazed (I like seeing crazy stuff). And I was sitting there totally confused for a couple of seconds before I tried to work something out against this. While being in the game I opted to go roach/ling + Nydus worm, skipping my expansion. Later in the game I started to realize that I had acutally 2 drones outside my base left (scouting + expo drone) and started to expand...
I think this build is terrible for P once Z had made a plan to deal with it.
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I speak as someone who asked a protoss to cannon rush me 20 times on Tal Darim.
- You auto die to 13 forge if you don't patrol by 2:10. You still auto die if you went 14 pool. You can gamble and not patrol at this time as 13 forge is a very small part of P opening range on this map, but you're dead if he does this.
- If you're hatch first you can not patrol with just 1 drone off mining. You HAVE to follow his probe. After a while you HAVE to bring a 2nd drone to patrol while you follow, to time it with his 2nd probe. Otherwise, you die to forge first. (You don't "die" if he walls behind your natural, but you lose your natural).
There are 2 spots you need to be concerned with, behind the mineral 3 pylon wall and the natural:main connector wall. You have to attack him, then when he approaches this stop attacking and right click into the block spot. If he has commenced the wall in the connector, you have to run into the 3rd pylon spot, hold shift, and spam right click back and forth whilst frantically grabbing 5 drones from your main. If you do not shift spam right click 3-4 times, protoss can 4 pylon wall ignoring your stationary blocking drone and you die.
You need a second drone soon after the probe scouts you as you have to follow the initial probe to stop behind-the-mineral wall, so you need the 2nd drone to stop a 2nd probe from quickly walling the connector whilst your drone is following the 1st probe around the back of the natural.
If you're FE you need your overlord to go over your hatch so you can see if he's elevatoring cannons up your butthole (behind your natural). You can't check this with your singular drone holding the natural/connector because if protoss comes in and sees you're not patrolling he will 3 pylon you and you will lose.
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imo, if he gets it up you are close to dead against a competent player.
busting it down will lose you a lot and show exactly what is comming, so you have to bust it extremly early, but then it is an autolose if he didn't build a nexus.
nydus allin is... viable on the ladder because the players are so bad. but you are depending on him not thinking about it and you need at least the second overlord blindrallied to his base on Tel'darim.
If he follows his build up with a lot of gateways and then blink I really have no clue how to deal with it, because you can't break him and once you stop roach/ling production you are dead. If you don't stop it, you are dead later...
so in conclusion I think on prolevel it is game over instantly, when P gets the wall+canon up.
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Is there a reason to favor hatch-first rather than Overpool on a Forge FE map? Are you gambling that the Protoss scouts you late?
I was under the impression that Overpool-no-gas builds were in disfavor because they don't get fast speed or fast natural creep, but you don't need either of those against a Forge FE.
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my shot at trying to break the 3 pylons wall on tda vs Geiko:
http://drop.sc/18652
i failed and i say its impossible to break on thru to the other side
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I'm sorry but I am going to have to strongly disagree with a lot of the points you made blade, sure you need to keep a drone patrolling to stop the pylon block, but just simply opening 14pool 15hath, 14gas 14pool, 14pool , 16has , then hatch + Speed, any of these variants of this build is SAFER and will put you LESS behind if you get cannon rushed, why? Because if you have one mis micro vs cannon rush it can cost you the game , cost you to have to cancel your hatchery, or over commit in order to kill / stop his cannon rush, so instead of putting yourself behind, you just do a different opening build order (which i'm seeing a lot of zergs doing on tal darim ) is just open up pool first, this isn't broodwar, but I think ZvP openings are kinda getting closer and closer to how BW is played ZvP, opening hatch first on a lot of maps is just plane risky if the protoss has good cannon positioning / a good cannon rush, its nearly impossible to stop, just a few perfectly placed cannons inside / outside minerals at expo easily stops a hatch first zerg EVERY single time if the protoss's timing is correct, the only way to stop this is to put drones where cannons are going to be made so he cant make them, and that is still hard to pull off considering he can just avoid you're drones and make a lot of cannons infront and behind mineral line, and you can't stop it.
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On July 07 2011 03:34 galivet wrote:I believe that there are a number of one-base all-ins that defeat the wall-off if protoss follows it up by expanding. One example is nydusing one-base hydras just outside of protoss's natural. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226952I used to use walloff strats in PvZ until I found that zergs who perform one of the correct responses cannot be defeated. The walloff slows tech and unit production so much.
if this were true there would be absolutely no reason not to hatch first every zvp
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On July 06 2011 15:42 Sanctimonius wrote:I'm not saying you have to all-in. Three pylons - 300 minerals. That's almost a hatch right there. Next he's made a nexus and cannons - 400+100(pylon) and if he's going for a wall off 150/300(cannons), 150(gateway) and usually another 100(pylon). That's 1200 minerals sunk there. How many lings and roaches would you have to make to have spent that much? If you pool first (why not overpool if you're expecting to be pylon blocked?) and use lings to take down one of the pylons allowing an expansion, I don't see you as being far behind. Obviously if he has a cannon you're pushing for roaches and lings to take it down - worse but still not that far behind. If he puts down cannons, a fast expansion of his own, walls it off, he's making a huge investment - much worse off than if he simply forge fast-expanded. Course it's not the best position to be in, but zerg shouldn't expect to be able to be greedy every game and not be punished for it at some point. I may be completely off the mark but I suspect you're not actually that far behind if you're keeping on top of macro while you get lings and roaches. I wouldn't mind seeing some timings and maths on this
I hope you are aware that a hatchery costs 300 minerals.
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On July 07 2011 23:55 dementrio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 03:34 galivet wrote:I believe that there are a number of one-base all-ins that defeat the wall-off if protoss follows it up by expanding. One example is nydusing one-base hydras just outside of protoss's natural. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226952I used to use walloff strats in PvZ until I found that zergs who perform one of the correct responses cannot be defeated. The walloff slows tech and unit production so much. if this were true there would be absolutely no reason not to hatch first every zvp
The three pylon wall + cannon is about the least cost-efficient way to pressure hatch first. It delays unit production and tech for so long that zerg can win by nydusing units near the entrance to P's natural where he cannot prevent the nydus.
Hatch first should be more afraid of fast pressure from early units supported by one pylon and a cannon. That kind of pressure does not delay units or tech nearly as much and it wastes fewer minerals.
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to my experience hatch first in ZvP is a risk.
there is no other way to say it. in my view if you are gready enough to go hatch first i would just autoblock the ramp and delay the scout a bit.
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This 3 pylon block and then lots of cannons outside happened to me twice today again  Hopeless. need to 7 pool protoss every time cos i have no idea how to deal with this
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On August 22 2011 10:30 dpurple wrote:This 3 pylon block and then lots of cannons outside happened to me twice today again Hopeless. need to 7 pool protoss every time cos i have no idea how to deal with this
Did you not read blade55555's first post on the first page? It is definitely stoppable.
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On August 22 2011 10:38 Soluhwin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 10:30 dpurple wrote:This 3 pylon block and then lots of cannons outside happened to me twice today again Hopeless. need to 7 pool protoss every time cos i have no idea how to deal with this Did you not read blade55555's first post on the first page? It is definitely stoppable.
Hmm....both games i didnt even see it until my first zerglings and drone came out to expand, ramp blocked and cannon behind, cos i never hatch first vs protoss. So i guess i need to put my first overlord at my ramp then. And then try to block pylons with a drone. Well i guess that makes sense.
Edit: i mean second overlord.
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On July 06 2011 18:02 Sanctimonius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 16:46 ETisME wrote:On July 06 2011 15:42 Sanctimonius wrote:I'm not saying you have to all-in. Three pylons - 300 minerals. That's almost a hatch right there. Next he's made a nexus and cannons - 400+100(pylon) and if he's going for a wall off 150/300(cannons), 150(gateway) and usually another 100(pylon). That's 1200 minerals sunk there. How many lings and roaches would you have to make to have spent that much? If you pool first (why not overpool if you're expecting to be pylon blocked?) and use lings to take down one of the pylons allowing an expansion, I don't see you as being far behind. Obviously if he has a cannon you're pushing for roaches and lings to take it down - worse but still not that far behind. If he puts down cannons, a fast expansion of his own, walls it off, he's making a huge investment - much worse off than if he simply forge fast-expanded. Course it's not the best position to be in, but zerg shouldn't expect to be able to be greedy every game and not be punished for it at some point. I may be completely off the mark but I suspect you're not actually that far behind if you're keeping on top of macro while you get lings and roaches. I wouldn't mind seeing some timings and maths on this the huge investment is easily recovered by using stargate to prevent the zerg to do a successful all-in and with chronoboosting probes, zerg is extremely far behind in economy Either we make more units or drones, we can't go both, that is zerg, we are very far behind if we got pylon blocked and if protoss had gotten his expo up before ours. The pros have their reason to go for their opening, that is why idra said he mis-micro'd the drone. He could have defended it with his own opening. So the cover for an huge outlay is to spend more on something that can defend slowly a Zerg attack? Stargate only gives you a bit of map control unless you put a lot of resources into it. Why are people saying the only option is to go allin? Expo once you have the troops to break the wall. My point is that the toss puts a huge outlay into the wallin, then into making sure any counter attack you make is not successful. That's fine, spend your minerals on a hatch and drones. People are mistaking having a second base as toss as being the same as having two fully saturated bases. Yes, it sucks that he gets his base up before yours. You still have been doing your macro and will probably have more drones than he has probes. When your natural is up then you can transfer more drones than you normally have. I'm not saying this doesn't suck or put you behind, I'm simply trying to say that it's not the end of the world and you have options.
Because you can't do anything but allin. You're so insanely far behind Protoss, their income has been so much higher for you for so long. And it's not as if those 300 resources in pylons didn't give them supply in the meantime to keep producing normally. You have to break the wall, which takes out some of your troops in the process, and then start you expo minutes after the Toss expo has already began mining. That's like 3 ingame minutes of being behind a base, you're behind on tech, toss is ahead economically, ahead in production.... I don't know what you're expecting.
On July 08 2011 02:59 OoOo wrote:
to my experience hatch first in ZvP is a risk.
there is no other way to say it. in my view if you are gready enough to go hatch first i would just autoblock the ramp and delay the scout a bit.
How's it greedy when Protoss is able to nexus first against almost any pool first build 100% safely? And at the same time, if youd o go for something like a 10pool, they just go forge --> cannon --> nexus.
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On August 22 2011 10:43 dpurple wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 10:38 Soluhwin wrote:On August 22 2011 10:30 dpurple wrote:This 3 pylon block and then lots of cannons outside happened to me twice today again Hopeless. need to 7 pool protoss every time cos i have no idea how to deal with this Did you not read blade55555's first post on the first page? It is definitely stoppable. Hmm....both games i didnt even see it until my first zerglings and drone came out to expand, ramp blocked and cannon behind, cos i never hatch first vs protoss. So i guess i need to put my first overlord at my ramp then. And then try to block pylons with a drone. Well i guess that makes sense. Edit: i mean second overlord.
Just checked the replay. And in no way would this work of course. I guess the best way is to plant a drone at the bottom of my ramp at 2:15 and have it stay there until my zerglings come out at 3:30 and then just use the drone to expand.
What i tried in these games was mass zergling and break the the wall with a spine and run past his cannons and the try to baneling bust him.......that didnt turn out so well for me.
Maybe just ignore his wall, its worse for me if i open it i guess. And get fast lair and nydus and hydra. But i doubt it will work good.
I guess the best way is to make sure they can never get the pylons up?
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I dislike the advice for nydus. I'd much rather go for a drop than nydus because normally after a protoss delays the hatch by a lot or they make you stay on 1 base(or you choose to stay 1 base) they'll make pylons around their base to cover everything. So unless you're deciding to nydus right infront of their natural so theres basically no travel distance it wouldn't/shouldn't work. Besides instead of taking away travel distance by spending like 300gas why not just go drop right in the main where he can't really kill your overlords unless scouted before you make it to their base and even then you wouldn't have to deal with any cannons at their front
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use your 1st queen to spread creep and make a spine to destroy the pylons. Just double expo after this and you'll be fine.
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On July 06 2011 13:23 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 12:28 Sanctimonius wrote:
Why do most zerg assume that it's their right to play greedy anyways? I know it's standard to expo before your opponent, but if you end up getting blocked then build up an army, destroy the wall and laugh at the 300 minerals the toss just wasted. You now have an army which he must respond to, and an option of putting on pressure or expanding yourself. Just because you're zerg doesn't mean you can expect to expand at the start of every matchup, you have to adapt - this is coming from a zerg player.
Still, if it bothers you so much as others have said you don't need to have a patrolling drone, just place one to block off the last pylon. If you're expecting it you can even just place one here as standard to guarantee the expansion not be blocked off - one drone not mining vs not being able to expand. that is incorrect. A protoss can nexus first and get cannons out before your lings can get there if you do anything later then a 12 or 13 pool. If you want to play a macro game you HAVE to expo and be up a base. Its just how the game works. Just because you are a zerg doesn't mean anything. If you are staying 1 base you are going all in. If you do not kill the protoss or do enough economic damage you are going to lose unless he lets you take expansion and get back into the game. Its not adapt its smart play to take an expansion. Its not even greedy, its what you have to do to keep up with protoss. Protoss can nexus first and zerg can do nothing unless he 8 pools vs that or all in and hope he doesn't defend properly. On taldarim/shakuras its very popular for a toss to do it. So why do an all in when you can keep up economically?
I think this is the wrong approach to the problem.
Hatch first can also be punished economically by protoss. It allows them to open nexus first and delay their first cannon until after gateway and 2 gas without cutting probes (after the initial cut for the 15 nexus obviously) which leaves zerg just as behind or maybe more than if protoss opened nexus first against a 14pool or a gas first.
If it's a forge expand friendly map such as belshir/tal darim/shakuras why not open 11 overpool? It's basically a free win against a nexus first. It forces protoss to go forge cannon nexus while cutting a lot of probes.
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On August 22 2011 11:28 warcralft wrote:
use your 1st queen to spread creep and make a spine to destroy the pylons. Just double expo after this and you'll be fine.
And how will you kill the cannons behind? I doubt you'll be fine.
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best thing to do is to 11overpool so that if he does do this you can just kill it. But otherwise have a protoss buddy of your FFE and get a probe to your base cross map and close positions, mark the exact time his probe gets to your ramp. Remember those times exactly and have a drone always patrol there if you plan on hatch first.
I know you don't "want" to patrol a drone, but there is a difference between want and have to. You have to do certain things to make sure you don't auto-lose. If you plan on hatch first then you have to deny cannon rush, personally hatch first vs protoss is a dumb idea because not a single protoss will allow you to hatch first.
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11 overpool do nothing to stop the 3 pylon wall at bottom of ramp. with cannons behind. I thought thats what this thread was about.
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The only reactive thing you could do is really this:
Take about 8 drones and mineral walk-attack a pylon. Depending on how many drones you sent it takes about 4 repitiions.
If you get to kill 1 pylon you can just focus the other stuff with lings / kill the probe etc.
I don't really know why you are saying that this doesn't work, it always works for me.
You can also, to be very safe, take off a drone to attack the scouting probe. That usually prevents such kind of things. I wouldn't recommend it however.
Don't just do stupid builds just because you might get pylon blocked. It's not worth it, because if toss doesn't go for something like that you're way way behind.
Just don't forget to look at your minimap and what the probe does.
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lets forget about the openings and such ... and micro-ing drones ...
its happened ... 3 pylons with cannons behind you are there ...
what is the best way to deal with that ?
we should use this thread to find a solution for the problem ... i know there is something here ... as stated before ... the protoss has sunk 1300 minerals ... how do we effectively punish that to get ahead or unleast on even footing ... anything less is useless ...
one of my idea would be to get a macro hatch in your base ... get both geysers asap ... tech to laid and get drop and overlord speed asap as well as a lot of lings ... would it work ? ... i guess you would get into the protoss base when he is done saturating his bases but he has no or few troops ... at worst he should have a stargate but still you should be able to get him down a lot ... other option would be nydus but that can be spotted and denied ... i feel like drop would be certain ...
ideas ?
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The problem with that is that the correct follow up from the Protoss should be a very fast 6-gate all-in so he should get units in time or near enough to. Or alternatively he'll sack his main and just go kill you.
btw, the reason Protoss canon-rushes a hatch-1st is because if he doesn't, he's basically accepting playing from behind for the whole game and it's HARD to catch up as Toss especially seeing as how most Protoss are struggling with this matchup at the moment.
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well i think my all-in response to his cannon all-in will deny any additional all-in he might do should my all-in fail ... O_o
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I have problems with this also, I think everyone does from time to time.
To be clear, it can happen at any time and you have to make sure that you are prepared for such things. Doing the 'safe' speedling expand doesn't guarantee your safety from this type of thing either. Protoss can still plant cannons and pylons to contain you while they freely expand and macro up a powerful economy leaving you way too far behind to catch up.
Had a game just last night where I did the safe speedling expand and protoss contained me within my own base not at the bottom of the ramp but actually build within my own base at the top of the ramp so many pylons and cannons I thought he was all in with this cannon attempt. I broke it down eventually but by the time I did he already had 2 very strong bases and 6 warpgates already up and just crushed me.
The lesson is just assume this is going to happen every time and be very diligent in preventing it.
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theres been a few times this has been done to me also, except i blocked the 3rd pylon, but he just added two more. One way of beating this is to immedialtly build 3 spine crawlers, get a roach , and saturate your mineral and gas. Also find out where this bases is, he'll most likely be forge FE. Get OL out in front ofhis base and while you are breaking down his pylons u get to lair tech. once its safe, move your 3 spine crawlers infront of his base and build roaches behind this, after u saturate. get a expo or macro hatch.. i suggest expo. you can over power him pretty easily after this with support of the spines infront of his base. He won't have a large army if he think he is safe.
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You guys need to remember it's not really about resources, it's about larva. The fact that the Protoss may be even or even behind in resources after making a pylon wall and cannoning is irrelevant. When he forces a hatch cancel, even if you immediately restart the hatchery somewhere else you lose at least 15 larva that that hatch would have spawned if it had completed. That 15 larva lost means you either don't have 15 drones or don't have 15 roaches - you're straight up dead either way.
This is also why building a hatch at the Toss natural, canceling it, and then putting an evo chamber there to block the expo is terrible. It costs the Protoss far more resources than it costs you, but delaying your own second hatch costs you larva which you simply can't afford.
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Question: why couldnt he just cancel the hatch? Thats 75 minerals lost + a later expansion, but surely the 450 minerals for a pylon + forge makes up for it?
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In pic 1 the probe has taken 1 hit from the drone. In pic 2 the probe has taken 2 hits from the drone. Instead of controlling the drone to attack the probe for the second time, move past the probe and block the pylon wall.
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still no solution,
lets not give up on this thread ...
i hate having protoss get a free win if he managed to get in 3 - 5 pylons ...
ideas please ...
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On August 23 2011 15:46 DMaster wrote:still no solution, lets not give up on this thread ... i hate having protoss get a free win if he managed to get in 3 - 5 pylons ... ideas please ...
On August 23 2011 11:42 SpiciestZerg wrote:
Question: why couldnt he just cancel the hatch? Thats 75 minerals lost + a later expansion, but surely the 450 minerals for a pylon + forge makes up for it? I'm still wondering this.
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If you go pool first you can break it, even if he successfully walls the ramp (though you should try to avoid it anyway).
Hit the middle pylon with 3 drones until your lings spawn, then switch out for the lings. This lets you kill the pylon before the cannon finishes so you can get lings and drones out to stop it.
It really helps to have one drone on the outside to annoy his probe or stop a 2nd layer wall.
this can hold even with a pool as late as 16, so you can do 16 pool 15 hatch.
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On August 23 2011 00:45 EvilZergling wrote:
I have problems with this also, I think everyone does from time to time.
To be clear, it can happen at any time and you have to make sure that you are prepared for such things. Doing the 'safe' speedling expand doesn't guarantee your safety from this type of thing either. Protoss can still plant cannons and pylons to contain you while they freely expand and macro up a powerful economy leaving you way too far behind to catch up.
Had a game just last night where I did the safe speedling expand and protoss contained me within my own base not at the bottom of the ramp but actually build within my own base at the top of the ramp so many pylons and cannons I thought he was all in with this cannon attempt. I broke it down eventually but by the time I did he already had 2 very strong bases and 6 warpgates already up and just crushed me.
The lesson is just assume this is going to happen every time and be very diligent in preventing it.
Was it me? It was a game where you want mutas off 1 base against my phoenix play (wtf) then mass roach off 1 base against my voidrays. High masters, right?
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I'm afraid I must disagree with Sanctimonious too.
Having played vs. a lot of wall-in tactics on various maps (not just Tal'Darim), there's a reason why MLG maps have a neutral supply depot to block most ramp wall-ins. There's also a reason why ALL pro-level zerg players react immediately to potential cannon and bunker rushes - because allowing the bunker/cannons to finish puts the Zerg at a HUGE disadvantage.
I think the crucial problem here is that cannon and bunker wall ins are a "cheesy" tactic, but if the initial push doesn't go so well or it's scouted too early, you can easily cancel the structures and come out with almost zero cost - Zero cost to the attacker, but a huge mineral (and psychological!) advantage.
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On August 23 2011 16:09 LesPhoques wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 00:45 EvilZergling wrote:
I have problems with this also, I think everyone does from time to time.
To be clear, it can happen at any time and you have to make sure that you are prepared for such things. Doing the 'safe' speedling expand doesn't guarantee your safety from this type of thing either. Protoss can still plant cannons and pylons to contain you while they freely expand and macro up a powerful economy leaving you way too far behind to catch up.
Had a game just last night where I did the safe speedling expand and protoss contained me within my own base not at the bottom of the ramp but actually build within my own base at the top of the ramp so many pylons and cannons I thought he was all in with this cannon attempt. I broke it down eventually but by the time I did he already had 2 very strong bases and 6 warpgates already up and just crushed me.
The lesson is just assume this is going to happen every time and be very diligent in preventing it. Was it me? It was a game where you want mutas off 1 base against my phoenix play (wtf) then mass roach off 1 base against my voidrays. High masters, right?
Yeah I think it probably was you haha. I knew I was going to lose the second it happened I normally just leave but I was in a good mood and decided I'd play it out and well... shit happens .
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EPT
