|
On July 06 2011 18:09 CellTech wrote:
OP did u watch the game? MC's scouting probe was in idra's main, a second probe came and built the wall. Idra just thought MC only had 1 probe until it was too late.
Acually MC built the wall with the first scouting probe that was in the main, and then used his second probe to build the cannons.
|
Well this strategy of blocking off the ramp on other maps was so powerful that most pro maps now have a neutral supply depot blocking this tactic, or other terrain features making it less of a deal.
|
Shrug - since so many are arguing to the contrary then I'm probably wrong. Still I wish people would actually read my post through - I did say you were behind, I just said that I don't think you're as far behind as people are making out 
|
On July 06 2011 18:13 Dragar wrote:
Well this strategy of blocking off the ramp on other maps was so powerful that most pro maps now have a neutral supply depot blocking this tactic, or other terrain features making it less of a deal.
That's cause you couldn't micro and stop it if the ramp was blockable with 2 pylons. With 3, you can manually move your drone when he puts down the first pylon, to where the third needs to be, and on hold position, you won't be in danger of being blocked.
With two pylons you can't get into position if following fast enough to block the 2nd pylon.
You can however block the third.
|
i was watching the Korean weekly last night and one thing i saw that seem to be the core of facing a polyon block.
1. try and block there expo themselves, it cost 75 minerals and 300 starting to do so, oh you have that spare from his blocking, so more poylons he places to block the more behind he is, IF HE GOING FE!
2 DO NOT PANIC, just carry on your build, you'll get to make your expo soon enough
-----
you could get inbase hatch, and out macro his one base untill you can break out and take your nat
you could start getting upgrade +armor or something.
-silver/plat eu player
|
Because of pylon blocking and the possibility of cannon rushes i've completely stopped hatchfirst against Protoss. I think i find myself in a pretty good position with 14 pool, hatch as soon as possible.
Possible meaning you can build it as soon as scouting has confirmed there is no forge. Otherwise you should wait with hatching until 4 lings are in production.
After that i prefer to do a variation of the Spanishiwa no gas build with carefully scouting the map and the enemies ramp and relying on 4 queens and (if needed) a bunch of spine crawlers. I automatically build an evolution chamber to narrow my ramp for runbys and to be prepared for dts that can come around 7:30-7:45
|
On July 06 2011 18:14 Sanctimonius wrote:Shrug - since so many are arguing to the contrary then I'm probably wrong. Still I wish people would actually read my post through - I did say you were behind, I just said that I don't think you're as far behind as people are making out
Well, you are.
Because you can't break out until you either:
- have roaches.
- banelings
- get creep far enough out and use spine crawlers.
In the mean time, he will have 2 finished nexus and cannons, working on his chosen two gate push that will destroy you, with enough defense that you can't break it if he plays decent.
|
On July 06 2011 18:19 TigerKarl wrote:
Because of pylon blocking and the possibility of cannon rushes i've completely stopped hatchfirst against Protoss. I think i find myself in a pretty good position with 14 pool, hatch as soon as possible.
I do what I like to call the 'Idra' build ... 15 pool, 17 - move 2 to expo, if I can get hatch down, good, if not, gas, overlord (16 supply when pool finish, queen immediately, then 1 or 2 larvae for lings, into expo.
Because he was the first I saw doing it, not sure who originated it, but works fine for me.
|
On July 06 2011 18:02 Sanctimonius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 16:46 ETisME wrote:On July 06 2011 15:42 Sanctimonius wrote:I'm not saying you have to all-in. Three pylons - 300 minerals. That's almost a hatch right there. Next he's made a nexus and cannons - 400+100(pylon) and if he's going for a wall off 150/300(cannons), 150(gateway) and usually another 100(pylon). That's 1200 minerals sunk there. How many lings and roaches would you have to make to have spent that much? If you pool first (why not overpool if you're expecting to be pylon blocked?) and use lings to take down one of the pylons allowing an expansion, I don't see you as being far behind. Obviously if he has a cannon you're pushing for roaches and lings to take it down - worse but still not that far behind. If he puts down cannons, a fast expansion of his own, walls it off, he's making a huge investment - much worse off than if he simply forge fast-expanded. Course it's not the best position to be in, but zerg shouldn't expect to be able to be greedy every game and not be punished for it at some point. I may be completely off the mark but I suspect you're not actually that far behind if you're keeping on top of macro while you get lings and roaches. I wouldn't mind seeing some timings and maths on this  the huge investment is easily recovered by using stargate to prevent the zerg to do a successful all-in and with chronoboosting probes, zerg is extremely far behind in economy Either we make more units or drones, we can't go both, that is zerg, we are very far behind if we got pylon blocked and if protoss had gotten his expo up before ours. The pros have their reason to go for their opening, that is why idra said he mis-micro'd the drone. He could have defended it with his own opening. So the cover for an huge outlay is to spend more on something that can defend slowly a Zerg attack? Stargate only gives you a bit of map control unless you put a lot of resources into it. Why are people saying the only option is to go allin? Expo once you have the troops to break the wall. My point is that the toss puts a huge outlay into the wallin, then into making sure any counter attack you make is not successful. That's fine, spend your minerals on a hatch and drones. People are mistaking having a second base as toss as being the same as having two fully saturated bases. Yes, it sucks that he gets his base up before yours. You still have been doing your macro and will probably have more drones than he has probes. When your natural is up then you can transfer more drones than you normally have. I'm not saying this doesn't suck or put you behind, I'm simply trying to say that it's not the end of the world and you have options.
The reason is that zerg is already extremely far behind once the hatch is blocked for so long and forced us to get more units to deal with the wall-off.
I think you are underestimating/not understanding timing push. His natural is up earlier means he can saturate it faster as well as powering up quicker, leading to an earlier 6 gate timing push for example.
The quick 3rd is helpful only when his push is not hit at a good timing, allowing the zerg to get it semi-saturated and allowed zerg to go unit production mode earlier.
|
if you saw the match, idra was attacking a pylon with 4 drones even if he had room for 6. he eventually pointed 6 drones to the weaker pylon but too late.if you attack with 6 drones right away you probably break the wall in time. i suppose this is the mistake he was talking about
|
On July 06 2011 18:36 HALFKNOT wrote:
if you saw the match, idra was attacking a pylon with 4 drones even if he had room for 6. he eventually pointed 6 drones to the weaker pylon but too late.if you attack with 6 drones right away you probably break the wall in time. i suppose this is the mistake he was talking about
Pulling 6 drones off mining isn't the way to go. Protoss just has to build another pylon (or an extra cannon as MC did) behind it and you've lost much more than 100/150 minerals worth of mining time.
|
wanna test? are you on EU?
|
On July 06 2011 19:15 HALFKNOT wrote:
wanna test? are you on EU?
Sure, Geiko.813. I'll probably be playing some time this afternoon.
|
|
|
if u run to the location of the last pylon u will be able to get there before the probe, since the probe has to stop everytime hes gonna build a pylon.
|
There is no real answer unfortunately sure you can block the third pylon but then what? Pull all your drones to destroy the other two pylons. It takes too long and a cannon could easily go up. And during that time you're losing out on like 300 minerals and even more if the protoss throws a cannon. Zerg has no real answer to this. We're not greedy by taking a hatch first its just how the game works. If we go 14 pool 15 hatch which is the most "safest" (even though there are no safe builds) build out there the protoss will still have an economic and expansion lead. When our expansion is 1/3 done theirs is complete.
|
On July 06 2011 19:32 Olsson wrote:
There is no real answer unfortunately sure you can block the third pylon but then what? Pull all your drones to destroy the other two pylons. It takes too long and a cannon could easily go up. And during that time you're losing out on like 300 minerals and even more if the protoss throws a cannon. Zerg has no real answer to this. We're not greedy by taking a hatch first its just how the game works. If we go 14 pool 15 hatch which is the most "safest" (even though there are no safe builds) build out there the protoss will still have an economic and expansion lead. When our expansion is 1/3 done theirs is complete.
Stop balance whining please... If you block the third pylon, you just have to pull one or two more drones to prevent the probe from completing the wall off. If he tries to throw down cannons even without the wall, you just pull 2 or 3 more drones and kill the cannons. At this point protoss player is behind as he has spent ressources and not prevented you from expanding.
|
On July 06 2011 18:05 Marsupian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 15:42 Sanctimonius wrote:I'm not saying you have to all-in. Three pylons - 300 minerals. That's almost a hatch right there. Next he's made a nexus and cannons - 400+100(pylon) and if he's going for a wall off 150/300(cannons), 150(gateway) and usually another 100(pylon). That's 1200 minerals sunk there. How many lings and roaches would you have to make to have spent that much? If you pool first (why not overpool if you're expecting to be pylon blocked?) and use lings to take down one of the pylons allowing an expansion, I don't see you as being far behind. Obviously if he has a cannon you're pushing for roaches and lings to take it down - worse but still not that far behind. If he puts down cannons, a fast expansion of his own, walls it off, he's making a huge investment - much worse off than if he simply forge fast-expanded. Course it's not the best position to be in, but zerg shouldn't expect to be able to be greedy every game and not be punished for it at some point. I may be completely off the mark but I suspect you're not actually that far behind if you're keeping on top of macro while you get lings and roaches. I wouldn't mind seeing some timings and maths on this The problem is that if you overpool the protoss won't pylon contain or cannon you. He will just forge fast expand making him safe to your one base army while giving him a far better economy. Saying your not behind when you go overpool against a good FFE is just silly. If your afraid of getting cannoned or contained the best option imo is to pool>hatch or gas>pool>sling hatch. It gives a decent economy. Getting an early pool puts you so far behind that you have to do damage against the toss which means you have to get there before his wall is up and as demonstrated by the Huk vs Moon dreamhack final that isn't always possible even when you go for a 6pool.
Since when does overpool lead to a one base army? Overpool provides an early Queen which provides additional larvae, similar to 14/15 hatch, only slightly less economical and much safer. Why are you comparing an opening almost as economical as a 14 hatch to a 6 pool?
|
On July 06 2011 13:23 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 12:28 Sanctimonius wrote:
Why do most zerg assume that it's their right to play greedy anyways? I know it's standard to expo before your opponent, but if you end up getting blocked then build up an army, destroy the wall and laugh at the 300 minerals the toss just wasted. You now have an army which he must respond to, and an option of putting on pressure or expanding yourself. Just because you're zerg doesn't mean you can expect to expand at the start of every matchup, you have to adapt - this is coming from a zerg player.
Still, if it bothers you so much as others have said you don't need to have a patrolling drone, just place one to block off the last pylon. If you're expecting it you can even just place one here as standard to guarantee the expansion not be blocked off - one drone not mining vs not being able to expand. that is incorrect. A protoss can nexus first and get cannons out before your lings can get there if you do anything later then a 12 or 13 pool. If you want to play a macro game you HAVE to expo and be up a base. Its just how the game works. Just because you are a zerg doesn't mean anything. If you are staying 1 base you are going all in. If you do not kill the protoss or do enough economic damage you are going to lose unless he lets you take expansion and get back into the game. Its not adapt its smart play to take an expansion. Its not even greedy, its what you have to do to keep up with protoss. Protoss can nexus first and zerg can do nothing unless he 8 pools vs that or all in and hope he doesn't defend properly. On taldarim/shakuras its very popular for a toss to do it. So why do an all in when you can keep up economically?
This. Seriously P nexus first in PvZ on some maps is way too safe imo. And they can also deny your 15h easily.
If a T 1rax FE or even 15 cc you can just roll him with 2base ling/bling.
|
This may sound unpopular, but I firmly believe that 15h will auto-lose to any competent cannon rusher on maps like Tal'Darim Altar and Shakuras Plateau. There's simply no way to stop a cannon rush once the pylon's been started on the low ground, even if you scout it, even if you pull every single drone. I'd recommend looking at a different eco build that involves making an earlier spawning pool.
Also, Sanctimonous is posting a ton of non-sense in this thread about Z building up a pathetic 1 base army, breaking out, and then trying to pressure the P? The problem, Sanct, is that you're forgetting that other races have the ability to build an army and produce workers simultaneously. With Zerg, it's one or the other, always. A P will make the same amount of units while expanding whether or not you're doing any form of early pressure, it's not like he's losing a lot by being forced to deal with your weak 1 base army.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
