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On March 22 2011 05:50 randplaty wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 19:59 Big J wrote:
Apart from that I still feel that some minor changes should be made in order to help Zerg out a little bit. The problem is that Zerg has not room to make any small errors or they lose. The margin of error is smaller than in the other races.
yeah exactly! Thats exactly what I think too. ZvP isn't OP in a way because Zerg can react to everything Protoss does, but it's way harder to decide what to do and way more unforgiving to make mistakes. Just some examples: Protoss goes for VoidRays - Zerg goes for Hydras: as protoss u just add the VoidRay to your Army because its still a great damage dealer, and go into defensive mode Zerg goes for Spire - Protoss goes for 6gate: Zerg is dead Protoss goes for fast Collosus - Zerg goes for a heavy Roach attack: Protoss can hold Zerg goes for Roach - Protoss goes for VoidRay: Zerg loses Uhh it's not that easy. If Protoss goes VRs and Zerg responds with Hydras, Protoss cannot simply go into defensive mode. Look at the game that July won, he simply dropped the main and won easily.
July's timing attack probably would have lost had MC built more gateway units rather than more cannons at his natural. It isn't SUPER SUPER easy for protoss to scout for nydus worms, defend hydra drops, and so on, but it really isn't that hard.
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On March 22 2011 18:40 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 18:24 cheesemaster wrote:On March 20 2011 16:17 MrBitter wrote:On March 20 2011 16:13 Active.815 wrote:On March 20 2011 16:05 MrBitter wrote:
So wait... Your analysis is that forcefield was a non-factor in these games?
Seriously?
Are you trolling, or are you really that dense? He's saying its not imba, and while they secured MC's victory they wouldnt've been necessary for him to win because of july's mistakes Then he wasn't watching the same games as the rest of us. The forcefield use, while impressive, was very obviously the defining factor in MC's victory. hmm thats a really subjective statement, you have no idea how much those forcefields actually did and while they helped had july not made mistakes and rushed to burrow he would have been fine anyways, there are so many factors that contributed to july's loss forcefields being OP was not one of those factors. Let's assume that forcefields *were* OP. The forcefields were still not what allowed MC to win.
agreed, but honestly forcefields are the backbone of the protoss early game army there isnt much they could change that wouldnt seriously hurt protoss , maybe duration but thats about it. Forcefields are not op  , mc forcefields well maybe lol
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the only change to forcefields is to have remove it from the game and rebalance whole protoss army.
FF in this state of Protoss will always be needed to survive. period
This on the other side will ever mean that offensiv ramp FF will be possible.
and the sentry count doesn't mean anything or energy or what ever.
1 full sentry can block for nearly 1 minute. So increasing FF energy doesn't mean shiti if you have 1-2 sentrys.
If a Zerg is stupid enough to leave units in side is base, or is to gready to even build units instead to be alittle aggressiv and keep them in the open for flanks, he deserves to lose in this state of the game.
the whole reason this works is only because Zerg is greedy and not build enough units.
Sure max economy is a good goal, but if it in turn loses you the game what the point?
even a handful of Zerglings + Spines are a pretty good defense against any 4 gate and also can threaten and harass any Sentry expand.
And there were Signs of an unusual Expand
- low unit count during expand ( there should have been atleast 4-5 Sentrys(+others) but he had like 3-4 units in total)
- no forge but nexus first also a huge indicator, you can't hold a nexus with so few units against aggressiv speedlings.
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I just dont understand how so many zergs went bat shit crazy about forcefields after the finals, when we didnt hear hardly any complaints about it before, 1 finals where the loser made tons of mistakes and the winner played immaculate games for the most part none the less. Its like zergs watched the finals expecting July to win and when he didnt they wanted to blame it on something besides a difference in skill hence the "well that proves it forcefields are OP" by so many zergs after the finals. I understand complaints about the protoss deathball and am sympathetic to zerg in that regard, but forcefields are a unique ability that makes the protoss race what it is, its bad enough theyve made HT's pretty much useless in PVT(i still think they will be viable in pvz) but thats another story.
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On March 22 2011 20:02 freetgy wrote:
the only change to forcefields is to have remove it from the game and rebalance whole protoss army.
FF in this state of Protoss will always be needed to survive. period
This on the other side will ever mean that offensiv ramp FF will be possible.
and the sentry count doesn't mean anything or energy or what ever.
1 full sentry can block for nearly 1 minute. So increasing FF energy doesn't mean shiti if you have 1-2 sentrys.
If a Zerg is stupid enough to leave units in side is base, or is to gready to even build units instead to be alittle aggressiv and keep them in the open for flanks, he deserves to lose in this state of the game.
the whole reason this works is only because Zerg is greedy and not build enough units.
Sure max economy is a good goal, but if it in turn loses you the game what the point?
even a handful of Zerglings + Spines are a pretty good defense against any 4 gate and also can threaten and harass any Sentry expand.
Yea i was really suprised at how little spines july made in those games, i think its because hes so used to being aggresive and planning on going on the aggresive soon, and i agree zerg is a balancing act between units and drones but if maxing out on your economy is losing you the game then you need to start making units or be like nestea and just know when to make units and stock up on larva early game while consistently making a few drones at a time(but doesnt go all out on the drones until he knows aggression isnt coming for sure)
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Why it's not imba+ Show Spoiler +Sentries were not the main factor in winning this game, the sentries were just there to convince the 3 gate expand. Had July seen what MC was doing he could have easily won.
Thank you for pointing this out. I, along with most people, must have misconstrued the 490 minutes (I watched again, that is accurate to within 3 seconds) of consecutive ramp blocking that halved July's effective army as a main factor in winning. I don't know whether forcefield is imbalanced. I think its necessary in a lot of ways because the game has been maturing with it as a major factor in protoss play. However, in some cases I consider it ridiculously abusive, and in the case of these finals, I don't think I'm the only one who found these finals much less entertaining because of it.
In fact, the only game MC didn't have mass forcefields... I think he lost.
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I love how people say the loser made tons of mistakes when really they mean, "the loser didnt rush for a ton of roaches and burrow before being able to scout that it would be needed", or more generally, "july didnt execute the perfect answer that would have been needed although he had no way of knowing what the threat was, and thus what the answer should be".
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Bait forcfields (like terrans have to do)
Run mutas away (like good harassment is supposed to do)
Do you ever hear Protoss whine that terran build marines and turrets when they go phoenix? Do you think the existence of queens and spores prevent people for attacking with 1-2 voidrays? Do you think banshee/dt players whine about how op spore crawlers are?
Please, l2play and stop letting your a-move-habit get revealed in public.
Bait a forcefield with an one base all-in? And then wait, and wait, oh there is another one... one base agression failed -> gg
Run mutas away is a good one. 3 mutas dont do ANY dmg and even 1 stalker is a motal threat. so you have 300/300 + no other units because of your cool "one base muta aggression" and suggest running away?
Nice try confusing new players that you can beat them up more easy 
You realy compare VR and phoenix (more stabe and faster) with mutalisks? Let alone the tech time...
get out of bronze before you tell other players how to play
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On March 22 2011 19:57 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 18:40 lorkac wrote:On March 22 2011 18:24 cheesemaster wrote:On March 20 2011 16:17 MrBitter wrote:On March 20 2011 16:13 Active.815 wrote:On March 20 2011 16:05 MrBitter wrote:
So wait... Your analysis is that forcefield was a non-factor in these games?
Seriously?
Are you trolling, or are you really that dense? He's saying its not imba, and while they secured MC's victory they wouldnt've been necessary for him to win because of july's mistakes Then he wasn't watching the same games as the rest of us. The forcefield use, while impressive, was very obviously the defining factor in MC's victory. hmm thats a really subjective statement, you have no idea how much those forcefields actually did and while they helped had july not made mistakes and rushed to burrow he would have been fine anyways, there are so many factors that contributed to july's loss forcefields being OP was not one of those factors. Let's assume that forcefields *were* OP. The forcefields were still not what allowed MC to win. agreed, but honestly forcefields are the backbone of the protoss early game army there isnt much they could change that wouldnt seriously hurt protoss , maybe duration but thats about it. Forcefields are not op , mc forcefields well maybe lol
Anyone who watched any of the games, especially game one, and says that forcefield WASN'T a major (the most major) factor in MC's victory, is lying to themselves. I'm not saying whether or not its imbalanced, but July would have easily held off that push if the units from his main could ever have joined in the fight.
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On March 22 2011 20:39 SuPerFlyTNT wrote:
Anyone who watched any of the games, especially game one, and says that forcefield WASN'T a major (the most major) factor in MC's victory, is lying to themselves. I'm not saying whether or not its imbalanced, but July would have easily held off that push if the units from his main could ever have joined in the fight.
yeah and the reason was that Zerg didn't make units, so they had to be build inside his base after it is to late.
May be Zerg needs to build some units instead of Drones and just buy time so those units get out in time?...
it so easy to blame everything on forcefields.
Obviously FF was the deciding factor, but not real reason he lost.
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May be Zerg needs to build some units instead of Drones and just buy time so those units get out in time?...
good idea!
and if he doesnt cancel the expansion you have a ton of units, but still less than protoss AND you are economical behind.
The perfect strategy to win.
Seriously I get the feeling Toss is getting greedier and greedier while developing builds which cant be engaged without going all in and are able to outtech and outproduce zerg while having on top of all an equal economy
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May be Zerg needs to build some units instead of Drones and just buy time so those units get out in time?...
Aye, if zerg knows that a 4gate is coming, then zerg can build units instead of drones.
But in cases like that one, where zerg has no posibility to know if its going to be a 4gate, and the toss cut probes, or if its a 3gate, and toss is chronoboosting probes like mad, then its just not that easy.
Sure, zerg can decide to blindly make a ton of units instead of drones. But then what?
If its a 4gate, it works out in the zerg's favor.
If its a 3gate expand, then zerg is left with a bunch of units that are completely useless in the face of 7 sentries, and is at 20 drones compared to the 30 probes of toss. In other words, incredibly far behind.
No one is denying the fact that if zerg blindly goes for the correct response, zerg has a good chance of winning.
But its just a gamble. blindly go for something, drones or units, burrow or hydras, and so on, and if you got the right one, you can defend and get an advantage, if you dont, you immediatly lose.
Its mostly related to zerg scouting options just being absolutely terrible.
But forcefields also play a big role. If it werent for forcefields, then building units instead of drones early on could actually put some pressure on the toss. If it werent for forcefields, then units built in reacting to an incoming push would have a chance to take part in the battle. And so on.
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On March 22 2011 17:41 lorkac wrote:
All-ins are present in all three races. Zerg players just need to learn to use them more often, or at least as often as Protoss and Terran do. The different build produce different gas timings, different inject timings and more importantly they throw off the opponent's scout timings. Even if 2-3 of the builds produce relatively similar results, they all look different from each other when scouted
Can I ask a couple of questions and not get my head bitten off?
The way I see it - which might be wrong; this is just a starting point for discussion - yes, Zerg does have all-ins. However:
1. Zerg doesn't have all-ins that can be disguised as macro play right up to the last moment.
1.1 More generally, as you say: "Even if 2-3 of the builds produce relatively similar results, they all look different from each other when scouted". That's the opposite of the problem Zerg faces, where similar looking enemy builds produce very different results and need very different responses that have to be started well in advance. On the other hand it seems like all a Protoss or Terran needs to know is broadly whether Zerg is playing aggressively or passively - the details aren't terribly important because they don't demand radically different responses.
2. Zerg all-ins are, as they should be, effective against risky builds. They don't work against safe, middle-of-the-road builds like a 3-gate sentry expand.
2.1. This I'm less confident of: it feels like Zerg cannot usually detect a 'risky' build in time to punish it with an all-in.
3. Zerg doesn't have safe, middle of the road builds like a 3-gate sentry expand, something that will get you into the midgame on a solid economic footing whilst being able to respond effectively to signs of aggression. Zerg gets its 'delay opponent's aggression' tech at Lair.
3.1 Consequently, Protoss and Terran all-ins against Zerg don't have to worry about encountering a 'safe' build. They only have to worry about encountering the perfect counter, the odds of which are naturally low and can be further reduced through deception.
I'd love to know which of these points you disagree with - what leads you to believe Zerg is in fact in a position of equal opportunity in the early-mid game, and everyone who plays it is (to paraphrase your earlier posts) a sulky, spoiled brat with no imagination or creativity
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On March 22 2011 20:56 morimacil wrote:
Aye, if zerg knows that a 4gate is coming, then zerg can build units instead of drones.
But in cases like that one, where zerg has no posibility to know if its going to be a 4gate, and the toss cut probes, or if its a 3gate, and toss is chronoboosting probes like mad, then its just not that easy.
Sure, zerg can decide to blindly make a ton of units instead of drones. But then what?
If its a 4gate, it works out in the zerg's favor.
If its a 3gate expand, then zerg is left with a bunch of units that are completely useless in the face of 7 sentries, and is at 20 drones compared to the 30 probes of toss. In other words, incredibly far behind.
No one is denying the fact that if zerg blindly goes for the correct response, zerg has a good chance of winning.
But its just a gamble. blindly go for something, drones or units, burrow or hydras, and so on, and if you got the right one, you can defend and get an advantage, if you dont, you immediatly lose.
Its mostly related to zerg scouting options just being absolutely terrible.
But forcefields also play a big role. If it werent for forcefields, then building units instead of drones early on could actually put some pressure on the toss. If it werent for forcefields, then units built in reacting to an incoming push would have a chance to take part in the battle. And so on.
you don't get what i am saying, first of all MC didn't have much units until the 4 Gate kicked in,
even if you had like 10-15 speedling those would have buyed enough time and baited some forcefields to give you enough time so your units get build and come down to the ramp.
So many Zergs try to squeeze just to many Drones out while only building 4-5 zerglings until the attack is seen coming, look at julys match. If he had been alittle more aggressiv with his poking it would have given him both more information and also bought time.
That the only and easy solution to this. And building 10-15 Zerglings no way cripples Zergs economy, it just keeps it balance with your opponents. And also keeps Protoss in the defensiv if he is not going for an all in, thus giving your even more room to drone.
The decision to blindly make only drone is a mistake and there is no discussing that away.
MC just showed there is a timing where Zergs get to greedy when they should have been actually more cautious about their scouting intel. Zerg sure will have to rethink their drone timing when new timings are introducted. sometimes beeing too reactive can backfire in that sense cause this is what makes mindgames work.
I doubt that this will work as good again now that people are aware of it and that proves that not FF are the reason it works but mostly the mindgame behind it. don't get how people can't see that.
(talking about Game 1 here)
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So many Zergs try to squeeze just to many Drones out while only building 4-5 zerglings until the attack is seen coming, look at julys match. If he had been alittle more aggressiv with his poking it would have given him both more information and also bought time.
Yes, of course. If hed made a bunch of lings, he would have been fine. Again, no one is denying the fact that if july had blindly executed the couter to a 4gate without having the possibility to know it was coming, he would have been perfectly fine.
And building 10-15 Zerglings no way cripples Zergs economy, it just keeps it balance with your opponents. 15 extra lings is 7 drones. that is quite a lot, that is quite crippling to have 7 less drones when going into the midgame against a 3gate expand.
The decision to blindly make only drone is a mistake and there is no discussing that away.
The decision to make drones when seeing a nexus and a bunch of sentries and being denied all other scouting information is a good decision.
If you see a 3gate expand, and you make lings, thats a bad decision. If hes doing an actual 3gate expand, all those lings you made WILL put you behind, unless he screws up his forcefields, and ALLOWS you to do damage with those lings.
The whole idea of "zergs are being too greedy" when a zerg sees what looks in all aspects like an unbreakable economic opening and drones, is just BS. Seriously.
Your main argument is that zergs should make a ton of lings when they see a 3gate expand, because its safer. But if a zerg does that, they are way behind, and they die in the midgame.
You can not play zerg by reacting to a safe economical opening by making a bunch of units, and sitting around on them, or suiciding them, and hoping the toss screws up his forcefields. Its just not a viable way to play, because it will put you really far behind most of the time.
Zerg sure will have to rethink their drone timing when new timings are introducted
Ok, help us out here to rethink it.
Lets think about it for a second. You see what looks to be a 3gate expand. If you make units, you fall incredibly far behind. If you make drones, and its not a 3gate expand, you die. Its impossible for you to get any extra scouting information.
Whats the optimal drone timing there? Answer: There isnt one, because its just a complete gamble. Flip a coin, pick units or drones, and if you did the wrong thing, you lose!
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Saying that droning when you see what looks like a 3gate is a mistake is stupid. Why would it be a mistake? Because theres the off chance that he might be doing a very clever hidden 4gate?
Lets take another situation. TvZ, lair just finished, terran scans the zerg, sees a spire nearly done, and makes turrets. Is that a mistake? reacting upon the information your scouting gave you is a mistake? What about if the zerg had a hidden hydraden somewhere, and is doing a hydrapush and the spire was just a distraction? The decision to make turrets when seeing a spire is still just as correct as the decision to drone when seeing a 3gate.
If you see a 3gate expand, and start making units on the off chance that it might be a 4gate that is designed to look like a 3gate expand... THAT would be a mistake. because then, you are scouting as well as possible, and then completely ignoring the information you gained from scouting.
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It not me who has to think and adapt to that,
as far as i can see other Zergs are adapting (Strategy section).
(i see increasing Aggression against 3 Gate FE on ladder and it works quite well)
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Agression against 3gate FE works as well as your opponent lets it. If hes sleeping, and forgets to forcefield, or doesnt forcefield properly, you can completely crush him and his expo. If he has good forcefields, you just put yourself super far behind, and you lose!
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Zergs can teleport nydus worms through floating islands in space, they should be able to get drones to widen the construction of their ramps so they don't get easygg'ed by sentries.
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trollness aside, it was sick games regardless but it showed how good protoss can be.
grats to july for making it that far though.
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thank YOU, a nice fresh cup of joe and balance from all the QQers in other threads =D
July lost game one and three due to scouting issues for sure, MC did solid timing atacks for all four games he won(maybe not the last one)
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On March 22 2011 18:53 jazzbassmatt wrote:
MC definitely outplayed July. However, I still think there were some things that made it harder for July:
-against a good player like MC, overlord scouting is much less effective
-good FF usage like MC further enhances the toss's ability to throw off zerg.
-Forge FE puts the zerg in a tricky position. If they open speedling and don't pressure, they will have a really hard time getting the economic advantage they need in the mid to late game.
This is a good summary of what happened.
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EPT
