|
On March 23 2011 15:36 morimacil wrote:
Could people please stop talking about pride, and how zergs should swallow their pride, and 6pool on every map in every matchup, because 6pool is as strong as a 6gate?
Even if 6pool was remotely as strong as 3gate into 6gate, or DT into 6gate, or whatever...
If the only way to beat toss as zerg is to 6pool, that still pretty much proves the point.
What you're not getting is that the point is not to "always 6pool" or "always banelingbust"
The point is that if zerg *never* does it then protoss and terran will always have initiative. Do you want to know why faking a 3gate is strong? Because protoss 4gate so often that you *have* to worry about the 4gate even if you don't see proof of it!
If 2rax was simply an all in then it would go the way of bitbybit and disappear. What's strong about 2rax is that terran are starting to open 2rax without even intending to rush because they know that Zerg *has* to assume that terran will all in.
You know what protoss or terran do when they see pool first? "I guess I won't cannon/bunker their natural"
Protoss and Terran never think "Pool first? I best build cannons/bunkers at my ramp!"
Why is that? Because Zerg don't all in. Why would Protoss or Terran ever worry about an early pool? They assume that it's just a different way for Zerg to macro up. They feel no pressure because it statistically never happens.
|
Protoss and Terran never think "Pool first? I best build cannons/bunkers at my ramp!"
Why is that? Because Zerg don't all in.
Its not all that much because zergs dont all-in, as much as just because most zerg all-ins are so weak that terran and toss dont actually need extra defenses to hold them off.
In cases where they do something risky, like for example a toss going forge FE, there, since its risky, the toss does have to be super worried about getting roach rushed and so on. And rightfully so, because they are taking a big risk.
But when they go for something relatively safe, like a 3gate expand, they just dont need to worry about it.
You can always all-in a zerg, and have a relatively good chance of success. But to all-in a terran or a toss, you need to do so when they have left themselves vulnerable to it.
|
Why is that? Because Zerg don't all in. Why would Protoss or Terran ever worry about an early pool? They assume that it's just a different way for Zerg to macro up. They feel no pressure because it statistically never happens.
hat is because even it is a 6 pool, you are not in any danger.
Hell... i can hold off most of the 6 pools using my drones alone without any preperation.
All a toss has to do is placeing a probe next to their choke and wall off a few seconds
|
On March 23 2011 16:52 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +Protoss and Terran never think "Pool first? I best build cannons/bunkers at my ramp!"
Why is that? Because Zerg don't all in. Its not all that much because zergs dont all-in, as much as just because most zerg all-ins are so weak that terran and toss dont actually need extra defenses to hold them off. In cases where they do something risky, like for example a toss going forge FE, there, since its risky, the toss does have to be super worried about getting roach rushed and so on. And rightfully so, because they are taking a big risk. But when they go for something relatively safe, like a 3gate expand, they just dont need to worry about it. You can always all-in a zerg, and have a relatively good chance of success. But to all-in a terran or a toss, you need to do so when they have left themselves vulnerable to it.
Yeah thats exactly the point. ever worried about a baneling bust as terran? build a bunker behind your wall in, and when u feel safe sacrifice it.
ever worried about a baneling bust as protoss? get 1 sentry and FF half of their banes off? well it didnt occur, you have a unit that gets better as time goes by.
Ever worried about a 4gate as zerg? build 2 spinecrawlers and a round of zerglings. it didnt occur? you lost 2drones and 5-8 larvae that should have been drones and got some static Ds and units that get weaker as times goes by.
ever done a 6,7,8pool? against a toss or terra? I had a day when I decided to only 7pool against every player. I won like 4 of 10 games. 3 against Zergs, 1 against a Terran that low-up-lowed his supply depot for his scout. I killed 1 gateway against a Protoss before his 1 canon was up, but he had enough buildings behind his dying gateway to block me out and I lost trying to transition into a standard game. (ok I didnt get to play on Scrap station against P/T that day, may have worked better there!)
Have you seen Idra vs Jinro where Idra tried to 6pool Jinro? Jinro didnt build a wall-in, accidently canceled his first marine and still held!
THATS WHY ZERG DONT ALL-IN
|
Why are people getting warned for their posts and the OP isn't? I though the point of this was to create a discussion (debate if you may). So basically the OP gets to go around saying how the game is completely balanced (not saying it isn't) and basically wins every argument 'cause people who argue against him gets a warning. Wow.
I completely disagree with your arguments about sentries usage not being that important.
For example, In the first game, even if July saw the 3-gate, July was running off two hatches and the only way he could take out a 3-gate push was to reinforce his current army. Now, WITH the sentries, he can only reinforce his army with 1 hatch without a queen where his units die quite easily. You can say it's his fault for not making enough spine crawlers, but MC can expand while completely forcing his opponent to destroy his whole economy (I'm not going to get into imbalanced issues), hence July would've been behind.
At the end of the day, if the protoss doesn't make sentries, roaches alone kill gateway units, and all MC used were gateway units, now put the pieces together.
|
On March 23 2011 15:49 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 15:36 morimacil wrote:
Could people please stop talking about pride, and how zergs should swallow their pride, and 6pool on every map in every matchup, because 6pool is as strong as a 6gate?
Even if 6pool was remotely as strong as 3gate into 6gate, or DT into 6gate, or whatever...
If the only way to beat toss as zerg is to 6pool, that still pretty much proves the point. What you're not getting is that the point is not to "always 6pool" or "always banelingbust" The point is that if zerg *never* does it then protoss and terran will always have initiative. Do you want to know why faking a 3gate is strong? Because protoss 4gate so often that you *have* to worry about the 4gate even if you don't see proof of it! If 2rax was simply an all in then it would go the way of bitbybit and disappear. What's strong about 2rax is that terran are starting to open 2rax without even intending to rush because they know that Zerg *has* to assume that terran will all in. You know what protoss or terran do when they see pool first? "I guess I won't cannon/bunker their natural" Protoss and Terran never think "Pool first? I best build cannons/bunkers at my ramp!" Why is that? Because Zerg don't all in. Why would Protoss or Terran ever worry about an early pool? They assume that it's just a different way for Zerg to macro up. They feel no pressure because it statistically never happens.
Um actually, I'm a terran and I'm not in the slightest afraid of 6pool, if you micro correctly, it's not too hard to fend it off. And I think you lack the understanding of the MU of TvZ (I play T so I don't know about PvZ) but an all-in by Terran doesn't give as much up to an all-in by a Zerg. For example, a one-base baneling bust fail is an automatic loss whereas, something like a failed cloaked banshee rush can transition into the mid-game. It's the numerous compositions and openings T and P that make them so strong. Z on the other hand seems to only have 1 type of unit composition and transition in each MU which makes them so predictable. So at the end of the day, you have to take huge gambles in order to win.
|
that wouldn't have happend if july had focussed on building at least some units earlier.
How would it be balanced if Zerg does focus on max Economy, building no units and your opponent is faking you an Macrogame but goes for a hard all-in and Zerg is still easily defending?...
|
How would it be balanced if Zerg does focus on max Economy, building no units and your opponent is faking you an Macrogame but goes for a hard all-in and Zerg is still easily defending?...
exactly the same way as toss goes for an all-in, gets deflected and still is on even economy.
Toss has to cut probes for a hard striking 4gate? Good news! Zerg also has to do that.
At the beginning you are about 2 drones ahead. If you choose to no stop no matter what Z is ahead 1 base + 2 drones -> you will lose
If you recognize "Hmm... his defense is just to heavy, I go back to probe production, get an expansion and warpin some units zu defend" and you are a bit behind but still in the game.
If a Z goes for an 6 pool or a 5/7/3RR he cant just go back to a macro game after he has done no dmg at all.
Thats why most Z will not go for some silly all-in build. It has nothing to do with "pride" or "honor" but Z all-ins are just that... while toss or terra "all-ins" dont even deserve the name... its more a "higher risk"
|
Zerg does have all ins.
Why do you think most terrans wall up the ramp, or Toss blocking the ramp with gate and cybercore with a zealot against zerg? Because of 6-pool. It doesn't matter if good zerg players rarely do it; the very threat itself necessitates other races to block their ramps and limiting their build orders somewhat.
|
For people who say 6pools don't work, sending out 2 drones at 50 minerals after the pool starts actually gets guys onto their ramp before the wall is up and you can prevent the wall off.
A good 6pool can't be walled off unless they wall off the bottom which favors 6pool because of maximum surround.
Baneling bust all ins and roach all ins have been successful in the recent GSL.
I'm not talking about your experiences on ladder, I'm talking about major tournaments. I'm not talking about my experiences as playing either zerg or terran, I'm talking about the results and the metagame of the GSL.
Anecdotal comments such as "Oh it never works, I play _____ and when ___ happens I feel _____" don't mean much in actual discussion.
ever worried about a baneling bust as terran? build a bunker behind your wall in, and when u feel safe sacrifice it.
ever worried about a baneling bust as protoss? get 1 sentry and FF half of their banes off?
Do you know when people expect a baneling bust? When you spot the nest. No one goes "Pool at 14? It may be a bust! Bunker up!" it's always "Oh look, a nest, I better enforce my wall"
When Julyzerg did the hatch cancel trick to hide a baneling nest at his natural his opponent was caught with his pants down because the opponent saw pool first and said "meh, whatever"
When you make arguments, have evidence other than theorycrafting please.
|
On March 23 2011 15:35 lorkac wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Min had 8 larva saved up at around the 5:30 mark and didn't use them until his lings got into Inca's natural and he saw the forge and immediately made 8 drones instead of 16 lings.
4gate will normally hit around 630-700 minutes, scouting at 530 gives 3 hatches a full minute of larva production (12 larva) to defend with in addition to the 8 lings. This is not counting the larva injects of the one queen Min had.
By the time a 4gate would have hit Min he would have had 32-60 zerglings.
That being said, I agree that the build is too greedy since a 4gate *will* destroy at least one of those bases.
+ Show Spoiler +You're right, I had a really hard time seeing that ling run-by, since it was mostly ignored by the cast. 3 bases were already down, but Min wasn't as blind as I had thought.
I couldn't find your July-canceling-hatch move, source?
|
I'm not talking about your experiences on ladder, I'm talking about major tournaments. I'm not talking about my experiences as playing either zerg or terran, I'm talking about the results and the metagame of the GSL.
READ WHAT WE ARE WRITING!
Zerg CAN do all-ins, but they are way weaker than T/Ps all-ins. they ONLY work if T or P takes a risk.
1base roach all in occurs against a NEXUS FIRST build. (some guy against HuK)
Banelings busting barracks occurs against CC FIRST builds. (JulyZerg)
2base Roach all-in occurs against Protoss 3gate expanding and then rushing for colossi.
Baneling busting down Protoss wall-in occured against Forge-fast expand into 1Gateway, Cybercore, double Stargate (Fruitdealer)
those are high risk builds of Terrans an Protoss.
If you consider getting zergling speed, an expansion 25drones, 2queens and a lair a risky build against Protoss at the 6min mark, well then tell me what zerg should do if your opponent denies scouting.
But you cannot survive a properly played 4gate all-in with this setup.
Or a 6gate:
Zerg is running out of time 1base to 1base and doesnt want to all-in, so they expand
Now protoss is running out of time and doesnt want to all-in, so they expand
assuming up to this point the game was properly played and P and Z are even:
Now its the Zergs time to make the decision: all-in or expand BUT 6gate beats both of them, so you have to do some weird build a lot of units thing and not expand until u have a lot of units... which means ur behind in the income, and you are pretty even in production capabilities.
|
On March 24 2011 02:07 Big J wrote:
READ WHAT WE ARE WRITING!
Zerg CAN do all-ins, but they are way weaker than T/Ps all-ins. they ONLY work if T or P takes a risk.
I could to the same argument about the other Races:
Protoss/Terran can do all-ins, ..., they ONLY work if Z takes a risk.
(not building any units except 4 Zerglings and going full macro)
it so funny that people are so shortsided so they can't see that.
|
I just did a write up of Losira's games in the GSTL where he was all inned every game. If Zergs learn from him then all ins won't really work on Zerg anymore.
|
I could to the same argument about the other Races:
Protoss/Terran can do all-ins, ..., they ONLY work if Z takes a risk.
(not building any units except 4 Zerglings and going full macro)
it so funny that people are so shortsided so they can't see that.
did you read the argument with the 4gate? go to 25 drones expansion+speed+lair dont stop mining gas and everything you have left over spend on zerglings, you CANNOT hold!
Do you think this is risky, having 25 drones to protoss ~25?
Do you think it is risky to have 3queens no lair and around 30drones to terrans 30+mules and around 20 zerglings with full map control always being able to produce another 20 and start morphing banelings if he sees an attack and then simply die because his banshees had cloak?
But hey, Terran always has to worry about Zerg cutting all his eco, getting 3mutas after 7min. (LOL)
And hey, Protoss do really fear 5roaches sneaking in his base and then unburrowing to do damage 7min in the game, and the zerg being on one base. (LOL)
(btw. I dont know if you really can get those things by that time, as you need like 500+gas to do those things)
|
On March 24 2011 02:33 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +
I could to the same argument about the other Races:
Protoss/Terran can do all-ins, ..., they ONLY work if Z takes a risk.
(not building any units except 4 Zerglings and going full macro)
it so funny that people are so shortsided so they can't see that.
did you read the argument with the 4gate? go to 25 drones expansion+speed+lair dont stop mining gas and everything you have left over spend on zerglings, you CANNOT hold! Do you think this is risky, having 25 drones to protoss ~25? Do you think it is risky to have 3queens no lair and around 30drones to terrans 30+mules and around 20 zerglings with full map control always being able to produce another 20 and start morphing banelings if he sees an attack and then simply die because his banshees had cloak? But hey, Terran always has to worry about Zerg cutting all his eco, getting 3mutas after 7min. (LOL) And hey, Protoss do really fear 5roaches sneaking in his base and then unburrowing to do damage 7min in the game, and the zerg being on one base. (LOL) (btw. I dont know if you really can get those things by that time, as you need like 500+gas to do those things)
4gate stops at 19probes. 22 if they double gas, but they have to be sentry heavy (which means speedlings can intercept the army in open ground since they don't have as many zealots/stalkers)
Zerg can have 16 drones by the time the pool hatches. They make 4 more drones and Zerg Econ is now better than Protoss Econ (usually with an expansion)
protoss spends all it's money on dudes backed by only 19 probes and Zerg whine that the can't get 25?
(you actually want about 20 drones to stop a 4gate and all you need to scout is the mineral line to know which 4gate it is or isn't (if there is more than 16 probes on minerals then he is not 4gating, see, easy))
now you have a better Econ than the 4gater by simply having 20 drones. You defend. You then drone again when it is safe. Done, easy. What do you do when he doesn't 4gate since your overlord saw more than 16 probes at minerals? Contain him with logs by threatening runbys and delay his expo. Boom, you're now ahead.
Want to theorycraft some more? Because in theorycraft world Zerg wins. Protoss needs for Zerg to overdrone for a 4gate to work. Protoss needs for zerg to overexpand for a 6gate to work. In the world of theory craft, Zerg is OP.
|
I don't get why there is all this imbalance discussion over a 5 game series. MC beating July does not prove imbalance in PvZ any more than MVP demolishing MKP proved imbalance in TvT.
|
No one is denying the fact that is easy to stop a 4gate if you can scout it lorkak. Problem is, the only way you can scout it is if toss makes a mistake.
I could to the same argument about the other Races:
Protoss/Terran can do all-ins, ..., they ONLY work if Z takes a risk.
(not building any units except 4 Zerglings and going full macro)
it so funny that people are so shortsided so they can't see that.
Aye, thats completely true. The all-ins only work because zerg takes a risk.
However, the thing is, with no scouting information, its not very hard for a toss to be safe against zerg all-ins for example, or for a zerg. Toss or terran can do a very safe build, and not really be behind at all.
Zerg, on the other hand, can simply not do that.
I mean, lets say its ZvT for example. What does a terran need to do to be safe against zerg all-ins, with no scouting info?
Wall off with 2-3 large buildings, make 2 bunkers behind them. They want to make 3 large buildings anyway. So total cost to be safe? 200 minerals (refundable)
Now if zerg has no scouting information and wants to be safe against terran, what do we need?
Well, we need speedlings in case of marauders, lets say 20, we need roaches or spines in case of hellions, lets say 4 roaches and a spine, we need some banelings or at least a baneling nest in case of a big bio push, and a third queen for banshees, and a lair, with spire in case of 2 port banshees, and also an overseer in case of 1port with cloak, .....
Total cost to be safe against terran: 2150/550 (non refundable)
Zerg all-ins only work against risky builds by toss or terran. Toss or terran all-ins only work against risky builds by zergs.
But toss and terran have access to very safe build that sacrifice almost no economy.
Zerg can not do a safe build without knowing what the terran or toss is doing. And that much needed scouting can easily be denied by toss or terran.
|
On March 24 2011 03:32 meadbert wrote:
I don't get why there is all this imbalance discussion over a 5 game series. MC beating July does not prove imbalance in PvZ any more than MVP demolishing MKP proved imbalance in TvT.
I'm sure this is just trolling, but I'll point out that it's impossible for a mirror matchup to be imbalanced.
This hasn't been a balance discussion anyway, it's been T/P saying Zerg should use more easily-countered cheese and Zerg saying it's easily countered.
|
On March 24 2011 03:44 morimacil wrote:No one is denying the fact that is easy to stop a 4gate if you can scout it lorkak. Problem is, the only way you can scout it is if toss makes a mistake. Show nested quote +
I could to the same argument about the other Races:
Protoss/Terran can do all-ins, ..., they ONLY work if Z takes a risk.
(not building any units except 4 Zerglings and going full macro)
it so funny that people are so shortsided so they can't see that.
Now if zerg has no scouting information and wants to be safe against terran, what do we need? Well, we need speedlings in case of marauders, lets say 20, we need roaches or spines in case of hellions, lets say 4 roaches and a spine, we need some banelings or at least a baneling nest in case of a big bio push, and a third queen for banshees, and a lair, with spire in case of 2 port banshees, and also an overseer in case of 1port with cloak, ..... Total cost to be safe against terran: 2150/550 (non refundable) scouting can easily be denied by toss or terran.
If you dont know what a terran is doing you are pretty much safe if you make a baneling nest and a third queen, both of which you are gonna be building later on anyways.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
