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On March 22 2011 21:53 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 17:41 lorkac wrote:
All-ins are present in all three races. Zerg players just need to learn to use them more often, or at least as often as Protoss and Terran do. The different build produce different gas timings, different inject timings and more importantly they throw off the opponent's scout timings. Even if 2-3 of the builds produce relatively similar results, they all look different from each other when scouted Can I ask a couple of questions and not get my head bitten off? The way I see it - which might be wrong; this is just a starting point for discussion - yes, Zerg does have all-ins. However: 1. Zerg doesn't have all-ins that can be disguised as macro play right up to the last moment. 1.1 More generally, as you say: "Even if 2-3 of the builds produce relatively similar results, they all look different from each other when scouted". That's the opposite of the problem Zerg faces, where similar looking enemy builds produce very different results and need very different responses that have to be started well in advance. On the other hand it seems like all a Protoss or Terran needs to know is broadly whether Zerg is playing aggressively or passively - the details aren't terribly important because they don't demand radically different responses. 2. Zerg all-ins are, as they should be, effective against risky builds. They don't work against safe, middle-of-the-road builds like a 3-gate sentry expand. 2.1. This I'm less confident of: it feels like Zerg cannot usually detect a 'risky' build in time to punish it with an all-in. 3. Zerg doesn't have safe, middle of the road builds like a 3-gate sentry expand, something that will get you into the midgame on a solid economic footing whilst being able to respond effectively to signs of aggression. Zerg gets its 'delay opponent's aggression' tech at Lair. 3.1 Consequently, Protoss and Terran all-ins against Zerg don't have to worry about encountering a 'safe' build. They only have to worry about encountering the perfect counter, the odds of which are naturally low and can be further reduced through deception. I'd love to know which of these points you disagree with - what leads you to believe Zerg is in fact in a position of equal opportunity in the early-mid game, and everyone who plays it is (to paraphrase your earlier posts) a sulky, spoiled brat with no imagination or creativity 
11Pool18Hatch is an eco build disguised as an all in build
Kyrix Baneling aggressing is an all-in build disguised as a 14hatch
July's NoQueen baneling 1base baneling timing push looks like a standard 14hatch15pool
However, since so few players perform these kind of tricky plays--protoss and terran players get very comfortable and seem to "not have to worry." This is a metagame problem, not a balance problem.
However, I do agree that Zerg need's *better* scouting options. Not necessarily more scouting options, just better ones. But the fixes should not be so heavy handed like "increase overlord speed" or "move speed tech to hatchery."
Personally, queens spawning with 50 energy fixes most of Zerg's problems in the early game. It allows Zerg to have fast lings within his base for defense without needing to get zergling speed so early. This allows for an earlier lair without sacrificing too much.
The reason for this is because Zerg's early game options are tier one responses without progressing the tech tree. A Cybernetics Core leads to tier 2. Tech labs enhances tier 2. However, roach warrens and baneling nests aren't so great *until* you get tier two.
Giving Zerg easier access to tier 2 allows zerg to have the possibility of rushing their tech safely forcing your opponents to be mindful of possible tech builds.
Currently, most terran/toss mind games are trying to figure out how many zerglings he can force out of zerg. However, against terran or toss Banshee/Voidray/DT/blue flame rushes are stuff that *needs* a specific response from anyone, Zerg doesn't have that yet. On that part I agree.
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Giving Zerg easier access to tier 2 allows zerg to have the possibility of rushing their tech safely forcing your opponents to be mindful of possible tech builds.
Not really.
Easier access to T2 would be nice, then we could get overseers and have actual real scouting options.
But as for rushing tech forcing the opponents to be mindful, that doesnt work due to the way zerg is designed.
Zerg units suck. They only become decently scary when in high numbers.
no terran or toss going for a reasonable build is going to be scared when they see 4 mutas they didnt expect. 4 cloaked banchees, and you arent prepared? thats scary. 4 phoenixes if you arent prepared is pretty damn scary as zerg.
4 mutas, is just not scary at all, you need 30 mutas to be scary.
Same with hydras.
I guess having 2-3 infestors early could be good, or 1-3 broodlords, but thos take for ever to tech to anyway.
For anything else, you need like 60 food of it before you have the posibility of doing any damage.
So a world in which zerg can rush for tech and force the opponents to be mindful is just not goig to happen.
Heck, even if you could build a spire at T1, it would be mostly useless, because you cant support any decent number of mutas before you have 4 geysers, and your nat is at least partially saturated.
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really the forcefields did help. But if it was something that cost him the game he should of considered getting ultras (lol). But MC simply bluffed/outplayed/outsmarted July in this particular match.
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On March 23 2011 01:37 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +
Giving Zerg easier access to tier 2 allows zerg to have the possibility of rushing their tech safely forcing your opponents to be mindful of possible tech builds.
Not really. Easier access to T2 would be nice, then we could get overseers and have actual real scouting options. But as for rushing tech forcing the opponents to be mindful, that doesnt work due to the way zerg is designed. Zerg units suck. They only become decently scary when in high numbers. no terran or toss going for a reasonable build is going to be scared when they see 4 mutas they didnt expect. 4 cloaked banchees, and you arent prepared? thats scary. 4 phoenixes if you arent prepared is pretty damn scary as zerg. 4 mutas, is just not scary at all, you need 30 mutas to be scary. Same with hydras. I guess having 2-3 infestors early could be good, or 1-3 broodlords, but thos take for ever to tech to anyway. For anything else, you need like 60 food of it before you have the posibility of doing any damage. So a world in which zerg can rush for tech and force the opponents to be mindful is just not goig to happen. Heck, even if you could build a spire at T1, it would be mostly useless, because you cant support any decent number of mutas before you have 4 geysers, and your nat is at least partially saturated.
Zergling harass starts at 5 mutas actually. 6-7 you start being able to pick off stray units. 10-15 you can start engaging enemy units. 15-20 you have a death ball of mutas.
Because of the zergling mechanic, you spawn 3-4 mutas in the time it takes terran to spawn 1 banshee.
1 Banshee + cloak = 350m300g
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3 times you say "should July have done that he would have won easily". Oh please. No zerg upgrade or unit combination results in easy win unless the opponent screws up.
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Wow, you make it sound so easy to destroy MC. When are you two 1v1ing so you can show us how to scout properly and "punish" his fast expands? I can't wait to see it. Replays?
Never thought Zerg could "easily" defeat MC like you say.
The bottom line is MC doesn't have to scout because Zerg is so limited on their options where as Protoss can 1 gate FE, Nexus First, 3 Gate FE, 4 Gate all in, 5 Gate all in, Void Rush, DT Rush, Phoenix play, Blink Stalker, Proxy 2 Gate, Proxy Stargate and if you don't know which hes doing you can't prepare and will lose. This is the reason July kept making useless tech structures. There is no way of scouting "easily". Especially when they do things like let the nexus almost finish and proxy tech in weird places on the map.
Zerg is limited in what you have to worry about. Having nothing that can jump up and down cliffs, nothing that can attack while burrowed etc. There are no possibilities that you can not scout and just insta-lose like you can on the Zerg side. That coupled with FF making it almost impossible to punish for fast expanding makes Zerg spread too thin. You can't out expo and account for DTs and Voids when you only have Queens and Hydra that can shoot up and you can't get Lair and a Queen simultaneously. So when you expand you're open to VR/DT issues, when you don't expo and cover DT/VR possibilities you are behind in army count.
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July did it vs anypro
Losira did it vs Huk
And that's just the march GSL.
Even the game that July won vs MC. He didn't "respond properly" at all and lost a lot and yet was still able to win by simply choosing to be more aggressive instead of thinking of unit counters. He committed to his strat instead of canceling upgrades and making buildings that he didn't use like he did in the other 4 games against MC.
So please, stop pretending like Zerg can't punish FE protoss because Losira, July and Moon(almost) were able to heavily punish FE protoss with aggression.
Don't be blind and blame your losses on imba when pro players have shown you how to beat it already. If you think it's impossible, tell July yourself that his aggression was dumb and he didn't belong in the finals. Tell Losira that he shouldn't have gone roaches against Huk's Sentry FE because that would have prevented Losira from getting to the finals. Tell Moon that his strategy was dumb against ACE even though he was the only one to almost beat him in IEM.
Please, tell these guys that they suck for getting to the finals by beating FE sentry play. Please do.
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July lost because sentries make it impossible to be aggressive with tier 1 units, and they blocked his ramp to stop reinforcements, split his units apart, and generally both kept him from being aggressive and from engaging with his full army vs MC's full army.
Imbalanced? That's a different thing. But the original post seems to suggests sentries weren't important, while they were pretty much the deciding factor in most games - and also is a big deal because it makes early aggression tactic useless vs protoss as a zerg, unless you go for a cheese.
It could be handled differently for certain, but really, watching those games and concluding sentries weren't the most effective thing used, and the deciding factor - you must have missed it, because they were.
That doesn't really mean much about balance (a 5 game sample isn't much) - but the whole original post seems to be a defense for why sentries don't need to be nerfed, and that's just not what those games showed.
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July lost because he was greatly outmacroed. Game 1? Forcefield stopped 2 roaches. Game 2? MC had te bigger army. Game 4? July got outmacroed hard as can be read in the live report thread of "omg how did he get that many dudes" if It wasn't 7 sentries then it would have been 7 other gateway unit and July would have still died.
Forcefield had nothing to do with it. It simply made a loss into a total and complete domination.
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On March 23 2011 05:53 lorkac wrote:
Even the game that July won vs MC. He didn't "respond properly" at all and lost a lot and yet was still able to win by simply choosing to be more aggressive instead of thinking of unit counters. He committed to his strat instead of canceling upgrades and making buildings that he didn't use like he did in the other 4 games against MC.
Hydra drop counters Forge FE, but won't work against 3Gate FE because in order to beat hydras until you get colossi, you need a lot of gateway units - you can't get enough in time with Forge FE. Poor example imo.
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On March 23 2011 04:22 TRod wrote:
Wow, you make it sound so easy to destroy MC. When are you two 1v1ing so you can show us how to scout properly and "punish" his fast expands? I can't wait to see it. Replays?
Never thought Zerg could "easily" defeat MC like you say.
The bottom line is MC doesn't have to scout because Zerg is so limited on their options where as Protoss can 1 gate FE, Nexus First, 3 Gate FE, 4 Gate all in, 5 Gate all in, Void Rush, DT Rush, Phoenix play, Blink Stalker, Proxy 2 Gate, Proxy Stargate and if you don't know which hes doing you can't prepare and will lose. This is the reason July kept making useless tech structures. There is no way of scouting "easily". Especially when they do things like let the nexus almost finish and proxy tech in weird places on the map.
Zerg is limited in what you have to worry about. Having nothing that can jump up and down cliffs, nothing that can attack while burrowed etc. There are no possibilities that you can not scout and just insta-lose like you can on the Zerg side. That coupled with FF making it almost impossible to punish for fast expanding makes Zerg spread too thin. You can't out expo and account for DTs and Voids when you only have Queens and Hydra that can shoot up and you can't get Lair and a Queen simultaneously. So when you expand you're open to VR/DT issues, when you don't expo and cover DT/VR possibilities you are behind in army count.
All of those builds can be scouted and easily be responded given a correct overlord sac at around 4:45. The problem is that protoss can disguise it quite easily by seeming to go 3 gate expo, but instead go 5 gate-all in in which you feel like you don't have to scout if he goes 5 gates.
Also, our stalkers and sentries are crap AA so it's the same thing (they're good against AA units such as mutas until crit mass and broodlords, they suck against banshees and bc's in cost-even fights).
You can get a lair on one hatchery, and a queen on another. Dt's lose to a spine crawler + spore crawler (only viable once on 3 near saturated bases). You can stop 1 base dt's quite easily though.
However, the void rays are a problem. I was playing zerg for a while (3.3k master toss) and it's quite fun, but void rays are just annoying. You usually have to ALWAYS get a preemptive spire for the colossi, and now you need it slightly earlier to chase down void rays just because void rays can come earlier.
Oh, and usually, on the map you're playing you should be able to "cut" the type of BO's protoss could be going. Blink stalkers are shit on low-ground-less maps, and 15 nex/forge fe is terribad on wide choke maps such as Slag Pits.
Oh, and 1 base void ray is usuall weak unless you can deceive your opponent, such as Squirtle against Idra. Most zergs, as far as I can tell, worry about 2 stargate more because it's annoying.
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On March 22 2011 17:41 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 17:23 imbs wrote:On March 22 2011 17:15 lorkac wrote:On March 22 2011 17:08 Charon1979 wrote:
Yeah. It's like, you can't just hatch at 14 every match while the other two races have to have different builds depending on enemy race, distance, map size as well as what the opponent's build is.
Can you imagine playing zerg and having to have different builds depending on what you scout instead of simply building a hatchery at 14 and whining when it doesn't work? Wow, yeah, silly of me to think that build orders should be more dynamic--what was I thinking.
Oh... I would love to. Sadly zerg mechanics deny this. Any expansion later than 21 is an all-in I would love to not haveing always 1 - 2 bases more and i realy would like to keep up on one base with a 2 base toss =) It's too bad you don't have as many options at your disposal as Protoss and Terran, it really is. I mean, not even counting new possible builds you only have 9 not counting 3RR, 6Pool, 7Pool, 7RR, 5RR, 1BaseMuta, EarlyHydraDrop, NydusRush, etc.... So few options for zerg... and that's only counting the stuff people use on ladder! just fyi no one can actually lose to most of those builds - even if its unscouted untill its on ur ramp you should hold alot of those np and shouldnt really be used by any zerg - things like 1base muta are a joke and early hydra drop never works unless its a response to a specific style ala wat july did. no, zergs do not have as many options as t or p Too bad for Genius when he got Nydus rushed Too bad TheWind didn't know that 1base roach sucks when he used it to win a game in the gsl too made Hydra Drop was the only time July has ever beaten MC. Too bad 6pool was something July and Fruitdealer both got to the finals of a GSL. No one told Losira that heavy roach builds were bad when he used it to beat Huk. You know what, just tell pro-zergs that are winning that they suck. It saves the TL forums the trouble. Or we could just theorycraft if you want?
hilarious. yea fruitdealer does really well with all his nydus play man, wat is he, most underachieving player playing the game atm? yea man cancelling ur expo and all-inning a protoss with a total defense of one cannon worked man who would have thought. hydra drops are hugely situational aswell, as i mentioned in the post u quoted. when you are gonna be as aggressive at posting as you are you should know what you are talking about. whether you like it or not and irregardless of balance zerg has far less early game options than t or p.
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On March 23 2011 05:53 lorkac wrote:
If you think it's impossible, tell July yourself that his aggression was dumb and he didn't belong in the finals. Tell Losira that he shouldn't have gone roaches against Huk's Sentry FE because that would have prevented Losira from getting to the finals. Tell Moon that his strategy was dumb against ACE even though he was the only one to almost beat him in IEM.
Please, tell these guys that they suck for getting to the finals by beating FE sentry play. Please do.
Losira beat Huk's cannon rush via trickery; then went all-in one-base roach, as it was the only way to avoid dropping way behind economically.
Take a look at game one of Huk v Losira, where Zerg won only because he was able to be greedier than the safe Protoss build. Losira had constant pressure applied to Huk and couldn't get anything accomplished on offense until his 4th (gold) base was up. Huk didn't even bother to build a stalker until 10 minutes and still had absolutely no problem defending Losira's speedlings.
July 6-pooled. Let's say that again: he 6-pooled. He beat forge expand through the most all-in build in the game, and even then only because anypro didn't wall in his main.
It's a sign of the effectiveness of safe PvZ builds that your three examples are two cheeses and a loss.
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4gate and 6gates are also all in.
In fact, MC did the nexus cancel just like losira did the hatch cancel.
Zerg can cheese and all in just as well as Protoss and Terran can. In fact, the most succesful of the Zerg players in the current gsl won by willing
to and actually using them. They won by attacking early and often. They won by being greedy only when their opponents were on the defensive.
The only thing stopping Zerg players is pride. So suck it up and start using the tools you're given.
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So we're back to the point where the key for zerg is all-in-ing faster than the protoss or pulling out the near-miracle defense. Melee units find it really hard to break down those wall ins (when was the last time you saw a 6 gate work on a small ramp?).
The most successful Zerg in GSL March were able to utilize truly ridiculous numbers of banelings, which requires a HUGE income edge and not too much Terran/Protoss air power or mech.
+ Show Spoiler [TSL spoiler] +See TSL's MorroW v Jinro from this last weekend for more proof.
And it's not "just like losira"
Losira managed to cancel the hatchery in time to void Huk's rush. MC cancelled a decoy nexus that ensured his trick would be undetectable. It's the difference between a sacrifice so that the game doesn't end and part of the deception.
This is a rather meaningless sidebar. The quick Forge was always a risky but flexible (can be either the cannon rush or fast expend) build. The point stands that Protoss have the 3gate sentry expand that MC and Huk (just to use two matches you've referenced) showed were impregnable in the early game, and Huk even was wildly out of position!
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In GSTL today, SlayersMin + Show Spoiler +went pool into hatch on Tal'Darim Altar without getting gas, and looked quite good and safe doing so. He took a 3rd when it became clear Inca was doing Forge FE.
July needs to do more than gas/pool on these huge maps, and he even got lucky with positioning on Metalopolis and Shakuras. For that matter, he got cross on Crevasse as well. He could have invested more in defense other than really early game because of the stronger economy. It's not really "wasted because MC didn't attack" if your alternative is to open gas/pool and have less stuff at the same game time.
The obvious trade-off is, does that die to some four warp gate, or is the early ling speed that critical? I don't see why you should die to an early four warp gate on those large maps. As far as Metal goes, July got the best possible position. Furthermore, if it's that early, it may be possible to keep the drone alive long enough to scout it or delay it slightly. Or you can hope that early ling speed is effective vs a protoss sitting behind his wall. I don't know the exact timing, but I think you can get ling speed fast enough opening 14 hatch if your intent is to pressure the toss as they 3 gate expand.
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There can be no question, speedlings are necessary against a 4gate. That push will arrive, regardless of map size, within 7 minutes. That's the beauty of the warp gate, it cuts travel distance down to nothing.
+ Show Spoiler [GSTL rebuttal] +Min was absurdly greedy, had zero scouting intel when he took his third, and would have been roflstomped by any protoss pressure. His first scouting intel was the overlord that arrived at about 6:50, or approximately when a 4gate would have landed. He was absolutely not safe, with zero information, no more than 8 zerglings w/out speed, and 1 queen. Roach warren was only halfway done. Min was very lucky not to get rushed. It happened to work, but this build in the finals... MC wouldn't have even lost a unit.
I don't understand your July analysis. The tradeoff is drones or other units for an early-game zerg, so you can't have more defense and more economy.
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On March 23 2011 14:27 Ansinjunger wrote:In GSTL today, SlayersMin + Show Spoiler +went pool into hatch on Tal'Darim Altar without getting gas, and looked quite good and safe doing so. He took a 3rd when it became clear Inca was doing Forge FE. . July needs to do more than gas/pool on these huge maps, and he even got lucky with positioning on Metalopolis and Shakuras. For that matter, he got cross on Crevasse as well. He could have invested more in defense other than really early game because of the stronger economy. It's not really "wasted because MC didn't attack" if your alternative is to open gas/pool and have less stuff at the same game time. The obvious trade-off is, does that die to some four warp gate, or is the early ling speed that critical? I don't see why you should die to an early four warp gate on those large maps. As far as Metal goes, July got the best possible position. Furthermore, if it's that early, it may be possible to keep the drone alive long enough to scout it or delay it slightly. Or you can hope that early ling speed is effective vs a protoss sitting behind his wall. I don't know the exact timing, but I think you can get ling speed fast enough opening 14 hatch if your intent is to pressure the toss as they 3 gate expand.
When I used to play zerg I experimented going 14Hatch15Pool17Hatch in an attempt to have an early inbase hatch with delayed queens.
Testing it against my friend who was in diamond I was able to stop both 2gate aggression as well as 4gate aggression. However, this was due to being able to produce 3+ queens at a time.
What eventually happened was that I would use the 3rd hatch to tighten the choke at the ramp and add spine crawlers. Sentries were never able to block the ramp because spines at the top and bottom of the ramp could hold off the attack with ling/transfuse support.
In the end I adapted to the more old style Kyrix play of no gas FE into heavy baneling/roach aggression depending on matchup. Banelings against Terran and Roaches against Protoss. I quickly learned that the 3rd Hatchery was not essential in base defense and what was essential when defending against 4gate was spines. 3-4 spines. Without speed you don't have a lot of map control which means you need a sturdier defensive line. In both cases I began adding an early Evolution chamber into the build because of its incredible weakness to air play.
However, I learned a lot about defending 4gate and 2rax play. The answer in both cases were spines. 3-4 not 1-2. The reason for this is because your zerglings *will* be kited and they *will not* be able to dps as efficiently without speed. The spines act much like sunkens in broodwar dealing most of the damage and being defended by Zerglings.
The build was queen heavy by nature in the early game, depending on creep spread to allow a "cheap" albeit temporary replacement to ling speed.
I stopped using the build the moment my friend began employing Kiwikaki's 2Immortal Drop supported by 4 zealots. The build depends on its spine crawlers for defense in the hopes that delaying gas will allow it to mine so many more mineral than his opponent. It is weak to drop play and air play due to the delayed gas slowing lair tech.
Busting terran and toss bases is also more difficult. The only real way to do it is to do what SlayersMin did and expand like crazy.
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On March 23 2011 15:06 Wren wrote:There can be no question, speedlings are necessary against a 4gate. That push will arrive, regardless of map size, within 7 minutes. That's the beauty of the warp gate, it cuts travel distance down to nothing. + Show Spoiler [GSTL rebuttal] +Min was absurdly greedy, had zero scouting intel when he took his third, and would have been roflstomped by any protoss pressure. His first scouting intel was the overlord that arrived at about 6:50, or approximately when a 4gate would have landed. He was absolutely not safe, with zero information, no more than 8 zerglings w/out speed, and 1 queen. Roach warren was only halfway done. Min was very lucky not to get rushed. It happened to work, but this build in the finals... MC wouldn't have even lost a unit. I don't understand your July analysis. The tradeoff is drones or other units for an early-game zerg, so you can't have more defense and more economy.
+ Show Spoiler +Min had 8 larva saved up at around the 5:30 mark and didn't use them until his lings got into Inca's natural and he saw the forge and immediately made 8 drones instead of 16 lings.
4gate will normally hit around 630-700 minutes, scouting at 530 gives 3 hatches a full minute of larva production (12 larva) to defend with in addition to the 8 lings. This is not counting the larva injects of the one queen Min had.
By the time a 4gate would have hit Min he would have had 32-60 zerglings.
That being said, I agree that the build is too greedy since a 4gate *will* destroy at least one of those bases.
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Could people please stop talking about pride, and how zergs should swallow their pride, and 6pool on every map in every matchup, because 6pool is as strong as a 6gate?
Even if 6pool was remotely as strong as 3gate into 6gate, or DT into 6gate, or whatever...
If the only way to beat toss as zerg is to 6pool, that still pretty much proves the point.
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EPT
