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Yeah. It's like, you can't just hatch at 14 every match while the other two races have to have different builds depending on enemy race, distance, map size as well as what the opponent's build is.
Can you imagine playing zerg and having to have different builds depending on what you scout instead of simply building a hatchery at 14 and whining when it doesn't work? Wow, yeah, silly of me to think that build orders should be more dynamic--what was I thinking.
Oh... I would love to. Sadly zerg mechanics deny this.
Any expansion later than 21 is an all-in
I would love to not haveing always 1 - 2 bases more and i realy would like to keep up on one base with a 2 base toss =)
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On March 22 2011 17:08 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +
Yeah. It's like, you can't just hatch at 14 every match while the other two races have to have different builds depending on enemy race, distance, map size as well as what the opponent's build is.
Can you imagine playing zerg and having to have different builds depending on what you scout instead of simply building a hatchery at 14 and whining when it doesn't work? Wow, yeah, silly of me to think that build orders should be more dynamic--what was I thinking.
Oh... I would love to. Sadly zerg mechanics deny this. Any expansion later than 21 is an all-in I would love to not haveing always 1 - 2 bases more and i realy would like to keep up on one base with a 2 base toss =)
Yeah, it's too bad you can't
11Pool18Hatch
13Gas13Pool
14Gas14Pool
14Hatch15Pool
14Hatch
14Pool
10Pool
etc...
It's too bad you can't all in like Terran or Toss with builds like
1Base Roach
1Base Baneling Bust
3HatchZergling
It's too bad you don't have as many options at your disposal as Protoss and Terran, it really is. I mean, not even counting new possible builds you only have 9 not counting 3RR, 6Pool, 7Pool, 7RR, 5RR, 1BaseMuta, EarlyHydraDrop, NydusRush, etc....
So few options for zerg... and that's only counting the stuff people use on ladder!
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On March 22 2011 16:31 morimacil wrote:
14hatch doesnmt make it any easier to survive a 4gate that you dont know is coming.
either you know its coming, or you dont. if you do, its due to a mistake on the toss side.
If you dont, you can either take a guess, and hope you are correct, or you can try to prepare for everything, and die no matter what he does, because no matter what he does, if you tried to prepare for everything, you end up not having the perfect response needed to survive a well designed blind toss push/all-in.
Steal Protoss Gas. On the ladder (up to low masters) no protoss knows any other 1gas strategy than 4gate. 
--> Always steal the gas, always be prepared for 4gate, always win. (THEY ARE REALLY THAT BAD!)
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11Pool18Hatch
13Gas13Pool
14Gas14Pool
14Hatch15Pool
14Hatch
14Pool
10Pool
oh i see the HUGE difference in gameplay =)
Maybe you should ad that Z can extractor trick, 9 Ovi or 10 Ovi... again a HUGE difference!
It's too bad you can't all in like Terran or Toss with builds like
1Base Roach
1Base Baneling Bust
3HatchZergling
sure you CAN go all-in... but not nearly as effective... and there we are again on the scouting topic.. its sooooo hard to spot an early roach warren/banelingnest... it could be anywhere on the map... oh wait
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On March 22 2011 17:15 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 17:08 Charon1979 wrote:
Yeah. It's like, you can't just hatch at 14 every match while the other two races have to have different builds depending on enemy race, distance, map size as well as what the opponent's build is.
Can you imagine playing zerg and having to have different builds depending on what you scout instead of simply building a hatchery at 14 and whining when it doesn't work? Wow, yeah, silly of me to think that build orders should be more dynamic--what was I thinking.
Oh... I would love to. Sadly zerg mechanics deny this. Any expansion later than 21 is an all-in I would love to not haveing always 1 - 2 bases more and i realy would like to keep up on one base with a 2 base toss =) It's too bad you don't have as many options at your disposal as Protoss and Terran, it really is. I mean, not even counting new possible builds you only have 9 not counting 3RR, 6Pool, 7Pool, 7RR, 5RR, 1BaseMuta, EarlyHydraDrop, NydusRush, etc.... So few options for zerg... and that's only counting the stuff people use on ladder!
just fyi no one can actually lose to most of those builds - even if its unscouted untill its on ur ramp you should hold alot of those np and shouldnt really be used by any zerg - things like 1base muta are a joke and early hydra drop never works unless its a response to a specific style ala wat july did. no, zergs do not have as many options as t or p
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Yeah, busting Protoss never works. Make sure you tell Huk and Anypro that. Also, tell Nestea and TheWind that their macro games are what's needed to beat Macro-centered Protoss. Please do.
Also, tell Julyzerg that his constant baneling/roach aggression doesn't ever work and that he should stick to Hydra/Muta tech. You know, "standard" play.
I didnt say that it never works.
Early agression can be incredibly awesome against a protoss that is doing a greedy build, or just doesnt have enough defenses.
It will just never work against someone who has 7 sentries waiting for you.
Yeah. It's like, you can't just hatch at 14 every match while the other two races have to have different builds depending on enemy race, distance, map size as well as what the opponent's build is..
July did do a lot of other things than just 14hatching.
The other builds still dont help you get better scouting information, and still arent safer against something that you cant possibly know is coming.
Can you imagine playing zerg and having to have different builds depending on what you scout instead of simply building a hatchery at 14 and whining when it doesn't work? Wow, yeah, silly of me to think that build orders should be more dynamic--what was I thinking.
Zerg does try and do different builds depending on what is scouted. Problem is, we can only scout something if the toss lets us.
Toss however, can do a build without needing to scout, and have it be very successful. Like that game 1 between MC and july, that wasnt the toss being clever about his scouting and adapting his build based on what the zerg did, that was MC doing a blind allin that zerg had no way of scouting.
It's too bad you can't all in like Terran or Toss with builds like
1Base Roach
1Base Baneling Bust
3HatchZergling
It's too bad you don't have as many options at your disposal as Protoss and Terran, it really is. I mean, not even counting new possible builds you only have 9 not counting 3RR, 6Pool, 7Pool, 7RR, 5RR, 1BaseMuta, EarlyHydraDrop, NydusRush, etc....
3 hatch ling against 7 sentries?
Baneling bust against 7 sentries?
roaches?
Sure enough, you can 6 or 7 pool cross map on metalopolis. But its incredibly easy for a toss to scout it, and stop it.
You can do all-ins as zerg against someone who tries to cut corners, and is too greedy. Against an opening that involves getting 4 gates, and 7 sentries, trying to do an all-in is pure suicide.
And seriously, most of the all-ins you mention in there are absolutely terrible.
Nydus rush? And hope that he doesnt scout his base?
1 base muta? And hope that he has no forge, and no stalkers/sentries? -_-
3hatch ling allin? Where do you get these dude, in silver league?
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On March 22 2011 17:23 imbs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 17:15 lorkac wrote:On March 22 2011 17:08 Charon1979 wrote:
Yeah. It's like, you can't just hatch at 14 every match while the other two races have to have different builds depending on enemy race, distance, map size as well as what the opponent's build is.
Can you imagine playing zerg and having to have different builds depending on what you scout instead of simply building a hatchery at 14 and whining when it doesn't work? Wow, yeah, silly of me to think that build orders should be more dynamic--what was I thinking.
Oh... I would love to. Sadly zerg mechanics deny this. Any expansion later than 21 is an all-in I would love to not haveing always 1 - 2 bases more and i realy would like to keep up on one base with a 2 base toss =) It's too bad you don't have as many options at your disposal as Protoss and Terran, it really is. I mean, not even counting new possible builds you only have 9 not counting 3RR, 6Pool, 7Pool, 7RR, 5RR, 1BaseMuta, EarlyHydraDrop, NydusRush, etc.... So few options for zerg... and that's only counting the stuff people use on ladder! just fyi no one can actually lose to most of those builds - even if its unscouted untill its on ur ramp you should hold alot of those np and shouldnt really be used by any zerg - things like 1base muta are a joke and early hydra drop never works unless its a response to a specific style ala wat july did. no, zergs do not have as many options as t or p
Too bad for Genius when he got Nydus rushed
Too bad TheWind didn't know that 1base roach sucks when he used it to win a game in the gsl
too made Hydra Drop was the only time July has ever beaten MC.
Too bad 6pool was something July and Fruitdealer both got to the finals of a GSL.
No one told Losira that heavy roach builds were bad when he used it to beat Huk.
You know what, just tell pro-zergs that are winning that they suck. It saves the TL forums the trouble.
Or we could just theorycraft if you want?
@Charon1979
All-ins are present in all three races. Zerg players just need to learn to use them more often, or at least as often as Protoss and Terran do. The different build produce different gas timings, different inject timings and more importantly they throw off the opponent's scout timings. Even if 2-3 of the builds produce relatively similar results, they all look different from each other when scouted. Why is it easier to scout zerg? Because since Zerg BO's keeps remaining standard, all the timings keep remaining the same.
For example, the reason for the popularity of the 11Pool18Hatch build is because it looks both like a 10Pool all in while having the econ possibility of a 14hatch15pool. In the thread where that build was figured out people kept arguing over mineral and larva efficiency when the best part of the build was that it doesn't look like a 14hatch.
You want to know why 2Rax is annoying? Because it could either be a bad all in or a bad FE. You want to know why MC's sentry pushes seemed so strong? Because it looks like a 3gate FE when it's actually a timing push.
It's not always about efficiency but it's also about looking or not looking the part.
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Zerg players just need to learn to use them more often, or at least as often as Protoss and Terran do
and you promise you wont cancel my all-in with a FF? Or stop producing AA when my 3 mutas arrive?
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In short, your arguments are:
- zerg all-ins were used on specific maps or in specific situations against specific builds
- Therefore its fine that toss can do unscoutable 4gates because zerg should be 6 pooling
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On March 22 2011 17:36 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +Yeah, busting Protoss never works. Make sure you tell Huk and Anypro that. Also, tell Nestea and TheWind that their macro games are what's needed to beat Macro-centered Protoss. Please do.
Also, tell Julyzerg that his constant baneling/roach aggression doesn't ever work and that he should stick to Hydra/Muta tech. You know, "standard" play. I didnt say that it never works. Early agression can be incredibly awesome against a protoss that is doing a greedy build, or just doesnt have enough defenses. It will just never work against someone who has 7 sentries waiting for you. Show nested quote +
Yeah. It's like, you can't just hatch at 14 every match while the other two races have to have different builds depending on enemy race, distance, map size as well as what the opponent's build is..
July did do a lot of other things than just 14hatching. The other builds still dont help you get better scouting information, and still arent safer against something that you cant possibly know is coming. Show nested quote +
Can you imagine playing zerg and having to have different builds depending on what you scout instead of simply building a hatchery at 14 and whining when it doesn't work? Wow, yeah, silly of me to think that build orders should be more dynamic--what was I thinking.
Zerg does try and do different builds depending on what is scouted. Problem is, we can only scout something if the toss lets us. Toss however, can do a build without needing to scout, and have it be very successful. Like that game 1 between MC and july, that wasnt the toss being clever about his scouting and adapting his build based on what the zerg did, that was MC doing a blind allin that zerg had no way of scouting. Show nested quote +It's too bad you can't all in like Terran or Toss with builds like
1Base Roach
1Base Baneling Bust
3HatchZergling
It's too bad you don't have as many options at your disposal as Protoss and Terran, it really is. I mean, not even counting new possible builds you only have 9 not counting 3RR, 6Pool, 7Pool, 7RR, 5RR, 1BaseMuta, EarlyHydraDrop, NydusRush, etc.... 3 hatch ling against 7 sentries? Baneling bust against 7 sentries? roaches? Sure enough, you can 6 or 7 pool cross map on metalopolis. But its incredibly easy for a toss to scout it, and stop it. You can do all-ins as zerg against someone who tries to cut corners, and is too greedy. Against an opening that involves getting 4 gates, and 7 sentries, trying to do an all-in is pure suicide. And seriously, most of the all-ins you mention in there are absolutely terrible. Nydus rush? And hope that he doesnt scout his base? 1 base muta? And hope that he has no forge, and no stalkers/sentries? -_- 3hatch ling allin? Where do you get these dude, in silver league?
No early pressure allows sentries to build up energy. Wasting a few zerglings or poking with roaches (even if it means losing some) to bait early forcefields prevents energy build up. Without the build up the protoss player can't do anything fancy with his push. If he has 7 sentries early then just 2-4 roaches are enough to pressure. How fast do you think 7 sentries takes to kill 3 roaches? (not quickly)
The all ins I'm suggesting have all worked before against different races and different maps. Do they all work against protoss? Of course not. But they are options. If Zerg *never* Nydus rushes, protoss eventually stop scouting their base. If zerg *never* 6pool, terran stops walling their base. If zerg *never* one base roaches, 7 sentries build up energy and cause the TL forums to QQ about imba forcefields.
So yeah, I'm saying zerg have to do these all in timing attacks.
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On March 22 2011 17:47 morimacil wrote:In short, your arguments are: - zerg all-ins were used on specific maps or in specific situations against specific builds - Therefore its fine that toss can do 4gates because zerg should be 6 pooling
I would say that 4 minerals and about 300 gas was spent by MC to prevent his 4gate from being scouted. I would say seeing a FE should have forced July to get aggressive with roaches (like Losira) and attack early without droning up so much.
July's all ins got him to the GSL finals. Only 50+ drones across 5-6 bases vs nada, no queens against MVP, 6pools against Anypro, hydra drop against MC. Those won him games.
4gates are easy to spot 90% of the time. And if zerg leaned towards aggressive responses to FE's they won't be tricked because the early sentries can't actually kill off an early push without cannons supporting them. Cannons are forced, 4gate stopped. Or you gas steal to force a 4gate. Or you send in 3-4 drones (set to mine minerals) to run through the wall off and scout the base after/before saccing an overlord. (Alicia was sacrificing a zealot to tank for a probe that would also die just to scout terran, no reason zerg can't do the same)
It seems the only problem zerg really have is pride. They want to feel that their penis is bigger and get all Idra on the TL forums. Stop being lazy, try harder. And no, "my opponent out thinking me is OP" is not a valid excuse.
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On March 22 2011 17:46 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +Zerg players just need to learn to use them more often, or at least as often as Protoss and Terran do and you promise you wont cancel my all-in with a FF? Or stop producing AA when my 3 mutas arrive?
Bait forcfields (like terrans have to do)
Run mutas away (like good harassment is supposed to do)
Do you ever hear Protoss whine that terran build marines and turrets when they go phoenix? Do you think the existence of queens and spores prevent people for attacking with 1-2 voidrays? Do you think banshee/dt players whine about how op spore crawlers are?
Please, l2play and stop letting your a-move-habit get revealed in public.
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Was anyone else watching the games and, even before any FFs had been placed, just looked at the relative armies heading out and thought "yep, July's pretty much dead here?".
I believe the OP's analysis is correct - superb FF's weren't what won MC the match, they were just the method of delivery. They did totally lock out July from doing anything sneaky, but he was *already* disadvantaged on unit number and/or composition and/or unused tech, due to being mindgamed. It was lack of scouting that lost July the match.
I think most players will agree giving the zerg some help in scouting around the 4-6 min mark is not unwarranted - suicide overlords too often come down to "do I get a lucky angle and see what I need to?". Also this would hopefully be a less severe change than playing with forcefields, around which the entire Protoss army rests on a knife edge.
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On March 20 2011 16:17 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 16:13 Active.815 wrote:On March 20 2011 16:05 MrBitter wrote:
So wait... Your analysis is that forcefield was a non-factor in these games?
Seriously?
Are you trolling, or are you really that dense? He's saying its not imba, and while they secured MC's victory they wouldnt've been necessary for him to win because of july's mistakes Then he wasn't watching the same games as the rest of us. The forcefield use, while impressive, was very obviously the defining factor in MC's victory.
hmm thats a really subjective statement, you have no idea how much those forcefields actually did and while they helped had july not made mistakes and rushed to burrow he would have been fine anyways, there are so many factors that contributed to july's loss forcefields being OP was not one of those factors.
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On March 22 2011 18:16 Paradice wrote:
Was anyone else watching the games and, even before any FFs had been placed, just looked at the relative armies heading out and thought "yep, July's pretty much dead here?".
I believe the OP's analysis is correct - superb FF's weren't what won MC the match, they were just the method of delivery. They did totally lock out July from doing anything sneaky, but he was *already* disadvantaged on unit number and/or composition and/or unused tech, due to being mindgamed. It was lack of scouting that lost July the match.
Think of it this way. If MC brought less Sentries means that he would have had 1 less gas which means more minerals which equals even more sentries/stalkers which means the natural would have died in seconds instead of being tickled by sentries for 30 seconds to a minute.
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On March 22 2011 18:24 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 16:17 MrBitter wrote:On March 20 2011 16:13 Active.815 wrote:On March 20 2011 16:05 MrBitter wrote:
So wait... Your analysis is that forcefield was a non-factor in these games?
Seriously?
Are you trolling, or are you really that dense? He's saying its not imba, and while they secured MC's victory they wouldnt've been necessary for him to win because of july's mistakes Then he wasn't watching the same games as the rest of us. The forcefield use, while impressive, was very obviously the defining factor in MC's victory. hmm thats a really subjective statement, you have no idea how much those forcefields actually did and while they helped had july not made mistakes and rushed to burrow he would have been fine anyways, there are so many factors that contributed to july's loss forcefields being OP was not one of those factors.
Let's assume that forcefields *were* OP.
The forcefields were still not what allowed MC to win.
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MC's superior strategies and July's inability to respond properly were what decided the games, not 'OP' forcefields.
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MC definitely outplayed July. However, I still think there were some things that made it harder for July:
-against a good player like MC, overlord scouting is much less effective
-good FF usage like MC further enhances the toss's ability to throw off zerg.
-Forge FE puts the zerg in a tricky position. If they open speedling and don't pressure, they will have a really hard time getting the economic advantage they need in the mid to late game.
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On March 22 2011 18:12 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 17:47 morimacil wrote:In short, your arguments are: - zerg all-ins were used on specific maps or in specific situations against specific builds - Therefore its fine that toss can do unscoutable 4gates because zerg should be 6 pooling I would say that 4 minerals and about 300 gas was spent by MC to prevent his 4gate from being scouted. I would say seeing a FE should have forced July to get aggressive with roaches (like Losira) and attack early without droning up so much. July's all ins got him to the GSL finals. Only 50+ drones across 5-6 bases vs nada, no queens against MVP, 6pools against Anypro, hydra drop against MC. Those won him games. 4gates are easy to spot 90% of the time. And if zerg leaned towards aggressive responses to FE's they won't be tricked because the early sentries can't actually kill off an early push without cannons supporting them. Cannons are forced, 4gate stopped. Or you gas steal to force a 4gate. Or you send in 3-4 drones (set to mine minerals) to run through the wall off and scout the base after/before saccing an overlord. (Alicia was sacrificing a zealot to tank for a probe that would also die just to scout terran, no reason zerg can't do the same) It seems the only problem zerg really have is pride. They want to feel that their penis is bigger and get all Idra on the TL forums. Stop being lazy, try harder. And no, "my opponent out thinking me is OP" is not a valid excuse.
pride?
We would like to be able to defend a rush or an all-in.
most players (not just zergs) would like to have a game where you can do a safe build, and not die to an all-in in the first few minutes of the game.
Most players do NOT want a game where the only possible response to an all-in is to do an earlier all-in yourself.
It has nothing to do with pride, penis size, or whatever you want to call it.
A game in which the only response to an all-in is to do an earlier all-in yourself is simply not what the majority wants.
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EPT
